Perhaps the most cold hardy coconut?

[Serrano]

Hello its my first time in this forum, I´m from Mexico (Monterrey). Surfing the web I found some information in a spanish plant forum about a coconut in Monterrey living outside and apparently surviving several freezes, you can find the palm in google maps all the way back to 2009! As far as I know this is the only coconut in Monterrey. I know there are some coconuts in Brownsville near the sea but here in Monterrey we are at 550 meters above sea level and quite inland, our winters are a bit colder than at the coast and we get some light freezes every year. 

First images from Google maps in 2009, it looks quite big already I dont think it would be easy to protect in winter.

In 2017 (Also you can see the Ficus benjamina are gone from 2011 freeze)

It means it survived 2011 freeze when we had a low of -5°C and a high of 0°C

In 2019

Meaning it survived January 17 2018 cold spell

There are no new images since, I dont kwow if it is still alive but it would have needed to survive February 2021 and this year hard freezes.

Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7044724,-100.3005003,3a,75y,12.84h,104.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHgb_YQ3rdi6wtYW9VZXb-A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Temperatures this last few days from a station near this location

This day had a daytime high of just 1°C

I might go check this place to see if its still arround

Edited December 26, 2022 by Serrano

[gilles06]

Hello Serrano,

It sounds incredible, -13,9°C!

I saw a Delonix Regia and a plumeria in the same street with google Maps.

Those temperature are not possible. What was the minimum on the coast?

[Serrano]

11 minutes ago, gilles06 said:

Hello Serrano,

It sounds incredible, -13,9°C!

I saw a Delonix Regia and a plumeria in the same street with google Maps.

Those temperature are not possible. What was the minimum on the coast?

That -13.9 is the dew point, most Plumeria and Delonix got cut back to the ground in 2021

[gilles06]

Ok, i read too fast. So it was -2,4°C...

[idontknowhatnametuse]

You are wrong, there are more than 50 coconut palms in Monterrey, I'm also from Monterrey by the way.

[idontknowhatnametuse]

More coconuts in Monterrey here:

There are more but I documented them on iNaturalist.

And I'm pretty sure there are even more because I found over 100 coconuts palms in different parts of the city between 2017 and 2018. Pretty sure most of them died due to the 2021 freeze.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

20 hours ago, Serrano said:

Hello its my first time in this forum, I´m from Mexico (Monterrey). Surfing the web I found some information in a spanish plant forum about a coconut in Monterrey living outside and apparently surviving several freezes, you can find the palm in google maps all the way back to 2009! As far as I know this is the only coconut in Monterrey. I know there are some coconuts in Brownsville near the sea but here in Monterrey we are at 550 meters above sea level and quite inland, our winters are a bit colder than at the coast and we get some light freezes every year. 

First images from Google maps in 2009, it looks quite big already I dont think it would be easy to protect in winter.

In 2017 (Also you can see the Ficus benjamina are gone from 2011 freeze)

It means it survived 2011 freeze when we had a low of -5°C and a high of 0°C

In 2019

Meaning it survived January 17 2018 cold spell

There are no new images since, I dont kwow if it is still alive but it would have needed to survive February 2021 and this year hard freezes.

Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7044724,-100.3005003,3a,75y,12.84h,104.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHgb_YQ3rdi6wtYW9VZXb-A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Temperatures this last few days from a station near this location

This day had a daytime high of just 1°C

I might go check this place to see if its still arround

Please DO go by and check it out, and get us all updated pics of it if it is still there, and talk to the people living there, or leave them a note if they are not there, asking them about it, where they got it from, and how long it has been in the ground, and if they have ever protected it.

Thanks,

John

P.S.  I am 99% sure it is a Mexican Tall, probably from the Gulf Coast of Mexico near Matamoros, if I had to guess, which would explain it potentially surviving bad winters down to 23F.  Nuts from it if they are viable, should produce relatively cold hardy palms.  And welcome to the Forum, by the way!!!

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

20 hours ago, gilles06 said:

Hello Serrano,

It sounds incredible, -13,9°C!

I saw a Delonix Regia and a plumeria in the same street with google Maps.

Those temperature are not possible. What was the minimum on the coast?

It is probably in a perfect microclimate that never receives temps lower than 24F or 25F. (And those kind of temps rarely.)

John

[Arecaceus]

I've checked the climate data for Monterrey and even without the freeze event. Night temperatures seem to be quite cold for a Coconut to thrive in general. 🧐

[idontknowhatnametuse]

8 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

I've checked the climate data for Monterrey and even without the freeze event. Night temperatures seem to be quite cold for a Coconut to thrive in general. 🧐

I think it depends on the variety, My orange panama tall is outside day and night on those temps and recieves no damage.

[Arecaceus]

6 minutes ago, idontknowhatnametuse said:

I think it depends on the variety, My orange panama tall is outside day and night on those temps and recieves no damage.

Pretty interesting. I wouldn't have guessed they would do well there. But the low latitude and day time highs are probably also beneficial. How long have Coconuts been around in this area?

[idontknowhatnametuse]

4 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

Pretty interesting. I wouldn't have guessed they would do well there. But the low latitude and day time highs are probably also beneficial. How long have Coconuts been around in this area?

Coconuts started being planted more between 2000 and 2009, since then, it's not that rare to find coconut palms in nurseries here.

Monterrey has some type of microclimate, even some other palms thrive like these seeding thrinax radiata's outside of a restaurant. they survived the 2021 freeze and they look pretty nice.

The best looking coconut in Monterrey (Post-2021 freeze) is definitely this one, it's even flowering. My guess is that this is some type of tall variety.

Acrocomia Aculeata has a lot of potential as well, sadly it's not easy to find them being sold for obvious reasons.

I also never mentioned a group of Elaeis Guineensis that thrived for over 10 years in a building, probably a restaurant that is now abandoned. I remember seeing that they had fruit pods, not sure if they ever fruited though.

2019

A bigger one (2019)

This is the only one left and the building is now abandoned (2022)

Most of them were planted in 2009, including the one in the photo above.

[Arecaceus]

37 minutes ago, idontknowhatnametuse said:

Coconuts started being planted more between 2000 and 2009, since then, it's not that rare to find coconut palms in nurseries here.

Monterrey has some type of microclimate, even some other palms thrive like these seeding thrinax radiata's outside of a restaurant. they survived the 2021 freeze and they look pretty nice.

The best looking coconut in Monterrey (Post-2021 freeze) is definitely this one, it's even flowering. My guess is that this is some type of tall variety.

Acrocomia Aculeata has a lot of potential as well, sadly it's not easy to find them being sold for obvious reasons.

I also never mentioned a group of Elaeis Guineensis that thrived for over 10 years in a building, probably a restaurant that is now abandoned. I remember seeing that they had fruit pods, not sure if they ever fruited though.

2019

A bigger one (2019)

This is the only one left and the building is now abandoned (2022)

Most of them were planted in 2009, including the one in the photo above.

That's pretty impressive. Very tropical looking for this inland area!

"Acrocomia Aculeata has a lot of potential as well, sadly it's not easy to find them being sold for obvious reasons." - What obvious reasons? I don't understand.

[idontknowhatnametuse]

27 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

That's pretty impressive. Very tropical looking for this inland area!

"Acrocomia Aculeata has a lot of potential as well, sadly it's not easy to find them being sold for obvious reasons." - What obvious reasons? I don't understand.

Acrocomia Aculeata is very hard to germinate + not everyone likes them because of the spines that are all over the palm. But they are a bit more cold hardy than Syagrus Romanzoffiana. However, they look pretty nice if treated appropriately. I have 5 seeds and none have germinated yet, I cracked the hard shell that covers the real seed today, hope they germinate. I also ordered 2 juvenile Acrocomias, I will get them after new year. I hope both thrive.

[Arecaceus]

10 hours ago, idontknowhatnametuse said:

Acrocomia Aculeata is very hard to germinate + not everyone likes them because of the spines that are all over the palm. But they are a bit more cold hardy than Syagrus Romanzoffiana. However, they look pretty nice if treated appropriately. I have 5 seeds and none have germinated yet, I cracked the hard shell that covers the real seed today, hope they germinate. I also ordered 2 juvenile Acrocomias, I will get them after new year. I hope both thrive.

Good luck! Looks like a nice species. I've seen it before but I didn't connect it to the name. Challanges are always fun though...

[Merlyn]

19 hours ago, idontknowhatnametuse said:

A bigger one (2019)

Elaeis Guineensis is suprisingly hardy for me.  I planted two, one a regular type and the other a "whole leaf" mutant.  The regular type went through about 26F with frost and had minimal damage, it was a bit smaller than the above photo.  It appears to have gone through this past weekend's extended ~26-28F cold front with just some yellowing on the older fronds.  I protected the whole leaf one with a big honkin' cardboard box, and it looks great.  Based on my experience I'd think it's a solid 9b palm and might even handle a warm 9a.

[Than]

I need to plant a Monterrey coconut! @idontknowhatnametuseever thought of starting a business?

[idontknowhatnametuse]

48 minutes ago, ego said:

I need to plant a Monterrey coconut! @idontknowhatnametuseever thought of starting a business?

I am planning on having a cold hardy exotic palm business. I am only 15 years old so I still have a long path to walk. I will start off in spring by selling half of my Sabal Yapa palms to neighbors. And I will buy more palm seeds with the money. If my Acrocomia seeds germinate I will have to sell some of those palms as well.

[idontknowhatnametuse]

51 minutes ago, ego said:

I need to plant a Monterrey coconut! @idontknowhatnametuseever thought of starting a business?

I still need to find out what is the true cold hardy coconut variety in the city.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On 12/26/2022 at 9:53 PM, idontknowhatnametuse said:

I think it depends on the variety, My orange panama tall is outside day and night on those temps and recieves no damage.

Yes, it does depend on the variety, health of the palm when planted, how well it is established, but I also suspicion, that like in interior southern California, there can be considerable variation in microclimates over very short distances, meaning one location may be way too chilly for a Coconut Palm to survive, but an area just 2 or 3 miles away, may be so suitable that a Coconut Palm could reach maturity there.

John

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On 12/26/2022 at 10:32 PM, idontknowhatnametuse said:

Coconuts started being planted more between 2000 and 2009, since then, it's not that rare to find coconut palms in nurseries here.

Monterrey has some type of microclimate, even some other palms thrive like these seeding thrinax radiata's outside of a restaurant. they survived the 2021 freeze and they look pretty nice.

The best looking coconut in Monterrey (Post-2021 freeze) is definitely this one, it's even flowering. My guess is that this is some type of tall variety.

Acrocomia Aculeata has a lot of potential as well, sadly it's not easy to find them being sold for obvious reasons.

I also never mentioned a group of Elaeis Guineensis that thrived for over 10 years in a building, probably a restaurant that is now abandoned. I remember seeing that they had fruit pods, not sure if they ever fruited though.

2019

A bigger one (2019)

This is the only one left and the building is now abandoned (2022)

Most of them were planted in 2009, including the one in the photo above.

That best looking Coconut Palm there is almost certainly a Mexican Tall variety from the Gulf Coast of Mexico.  Before the Big Freeze, there were some 50 ft. + tall mature ones in Matamoros with nuts on them and some in the 40 ft. to 45 ft. range in Brownsville with nuts on them.  They would be the perfect variety for us who enjoy planting them here on the east side of Corpus Christi, Texas near the water, as they are probably one of the best suited varieties for our marginal climate for Coconut Palms, but unfortunately, due to our overly controlling government here, people like me cannot bring sprouted nuts of this variety across the river!

John

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

11 hours ago, ego said:

I need to plant a Monterrey coconut! @idontknowhatnametuseever thought of starting a business?

Yes, GREAT IDEA!!!  Somebody down there in that area needs to start growing pure Mexican Talls, and shipping viable ripe nuts in the husk to people like me here in Texas, or if possible, even get official permission to ship sprouted nuts of this variety to us here in Texas.  It is a highly sought after variety for us Coconut Palm growers on the South Texas Coast and in the Rio Grande Valley!!!

John

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

10 hours ago, idontknowhatnametuse said:

I am planning on having a cold hardy exotic palm business. I am only 15 years old so I still have a long path to walk. I will start off in spring by selling half of my Sabal Yapa palms to neighbors. And I will buy more palm seeds with the money. If my Acrocomia seeds germinate I will have to sell some of those palms as well.

Alex,

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, I am begging you to please start offering pure Mexican Tall (as best as can be determined by looking at the husks and parent trees) ripe, viable coconuts in the husk for shipment to us here in Texas who REALLY want to grow this specific more cold hardy variety in the Corpus Christi area, and in the Rio Grande Valley, and look into what it would take to get official permission to even ship sprouted nuts of this variety to us here (phyto certificates, licenses, etc.) from the U.S. Government (USDA and Customs).  We would very much appreciate this and some of us could probably be regular customers of this variety of Coconut Palm nuts/sprouts on an annual basis, as I and probably a few other people here would love to be able to offer this specific variety for local homeowners and landscapers, and for people in the Rio Grande Valley.

Thanks,

John

Edited December 29, 2022 by Mr. Coconut Palm

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

10 hours ago, idontknowhatnametuse said:

I still need to find out what is the true cold hardy coconut variety in the city.

Alex,

I am 99% sure it is the pure Mexican Tall variety of Coconut Palm from the Gulf Coast of Mexico.  That variety seems to be the MOST Cold Hardy variety in the Western Hemisphere, and I estimate its cold hardiness to be about 25F or 26F once the palm is well established and has some size to it.  I say pure, because the Talls often hybridize their nuts with pollen from nearby Dwarf varieties, so the pure Mexican Talls are preferable over the hybrids due to their increased cold hardiness.

John

[idontknowhatnametuse]

30 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Alex,

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, I am begging you to please start offering pure Mexican Tall (as best as can be determined by looking at the husks and parent trees) ripe, viable coconuts in the husk for shipment to us here in Texas who REALLY want to grow this specific more cold hardy variety in the Corpus Christi area, and in the Rio Grande Valley, and look into what it would take to get official permission to even ship sprouted nuts of this variety to us here (phyto certificates, licenses, etc.) from the U.S. Government (USDA and Customs).  We would very much appreciate this and some of us could probably be regular customers of this variety of Coconut Palm nuts/sprouts on an annual basis, as I and probably a few other people here would love to be able to offer this specific variety for local homeowners and landscapers, and for people in the Rio Grande Valley.

Thanks,

John

I haven't heard the name of that variety in such a long time. I remember that I found a huge tall variety coconut in my city that was like 8-10 Meters tall and produced nuts. I think that's the tall variety that is used in Puerto Vallarta, place that I haven't visited in years. But it may be easy to find them. Nurseries here don't sell specific varieties, they sell distinct ones, which means not all the palms you buy will be of the same variety. Maybe I'll buy a coconut after I recieve my Acrocomias and hopefully it ends being a Mexican Tall.

[Serrano]

Very interesting to read you all, what do you think was the historic northermost place coconuts grew naturaly in the gulf coast? Maybe arround Soto la Marina?

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

12 hours ago, Serrano said:

Very interesting to read you all, what do you think was the historic northermost place coconuts grew naturaly in the gulf coast? Maybe arround Soto la Marina?

Very interesting question.  I honestly think there may have been a few of them growing at Boca Chica 150 to 200 years ago, prior to the devastating freeze of February 1899.  That area is normally mild enough in the wintertime to support Coconut Palm growth to maturity with nuts on them, and apparently, the annual average rainfall there was significantly higher (now only about 26 in. per year, but was probably in the range of 34 in. per year back then) before the clearcutting of 98% + of the native subtropical palm forest growing along the Rio Grande River, and the adjacent scrub forests for agricultural purposes, to support coconuts naturally sprouting on the beach there.  This would certainly have been likely in wetter, rainier years, as coconuts that wash up on North Padre Island, Mustang Island, and Matagorda Island on the Texas Coast, occasionally sprout, even now in modern times.  With the milder winters at Boca Chica at the Rio Grande Delta, it is likely a few of the sprouts back then grew to maturity with a few nuts on them.

John

P.S.  I am sure there are scattered nuts that sprout and grow into mature palms on the beach from just south of Matamoros to Soto la Marina nowadays, but much of that area is so remote from what I understand, that it would be hard to confirm this, without taking a boat ride just off the beach down there.

 

[sarasota alex]

On 12/26/2022 at 10:44 PM, Hortulanus said:

I've checked the climate data for Monterrey and even without the freeze event. Night temperatures seem to be quite cold for a Coconut to thrive in general. 🧐

Those nights are actually ok on average, given the average daytime highs in Monterrey.

[Arecaceus]

13 hours ago, sarasota alex said:

Those nights are actually ok on average, given the average daytime highs in Monterrey.

Ah ok. I thought they were sensitive to long term cold temperatures at night. But I also didn't think that day time highs would make up for it.

[sarasota alex]

7 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

Ah ok. I thought they were sensitive to long term cold temperatures at night. But I also didn't think that day time highs would make up for it.

Coconuts are hardier to nighttime temps than most people believe, if the daytime heat is adequate.

[richtrav]

Since Google Street view just updated their maps of Matamoros it turns out there are more survivors there than I had first thought. Some are just hanging on but others look pretty decent.