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Armata vs filifera cold hardiness


Armata79

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Hi everyone,

I am wondering which palm species is more cold tolerant: Brahea armata or Washingtonia filifera? Looking at these bluish/white wax covered leaves of the armata one could think it would cope better with low temperatures. On the other hand washingtonia filifera has a much more northern natural range and there are some crazy "come back to life stories" from the texas freeze in2021.

So it would be great if you could report on your experiences and opinions about these species. Thanks in advance! 

 

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4 minutes ago, Trustandi said:

In my zone 8b, cold and wet winter, It will be brahea armata. 

 

Thanks Thomas, good to hear that your armata does even well in your humid winter area.

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1 hour ago, Armata79 said:

Hi everyone,

I am wondering which palm species is more cold tolerant: Brahea armata or Washingtonia filifera? Looking at these bluish/white wax covered leaves of the armata one could think it would cope better with low temperatures. On the other hand washingtonia filifera has a much more northern natural range and there are some crazy "come back to life stories" from the texas freeze in2021.

So it would be great if you could report on your experiences and opinions about these species. Thanks in advance! 

 

They've both survived 0 degrees F in St. George, Utah.  I wouldn't expect that performance in non-desert environments though.  For sure the W filifera will grow much faster and therefore recuperate faster than B armata. 

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Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked.

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6 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

They've both survived 0 degrees F in St. George, Utah.  I wouldn't expect that performance in non-desert environments though.  For sure the W filifera will grow much faster and therefore recuperate faster than B armata. 

Hi Ammon, 0 degrees Fahrenheit is crazy - but i bet both species got completely defoliated there. In that case like you said filifera is growing faster and would probably look better in shorter time.

But I am wondering what if temperatures only will drop down to lets say around 10 degrees fahrenheit (-12°C). Which of them gets leaf damaged first? 

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4 minutes ago, Fallen Munk said:

My filifera are about dead, my Brahea look perfectly fine.

Hi Mike, sorry for your filifera. How cold was it in your place?

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On 12/25/2022 at 3:30 PM, Fallen Munk said:

My filifera are about dead, my Brahea look perfectly fine.

Same, but I live only about 45 minutes north so basically the same performance. 
 

I had ultimate low of 19F this winter which is my lowest to date. Armata still looks great. Filifera are hiding in the garage. 

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On 12/25/2022 at 3:37 PM, Armata79 said:

Hi Mike, sorry for your filifera. How cold was it in your place?

22F.  Its not the cold that kills them here, it's the wet.  They rot.

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10 hours ago, Chester B said:

Same, but I live only about 45 minutes north so basically the same performance. 
 

I had ultimate low of 19F this winter which is my lowest to date. Armata still looks great. Filifera are hiding in the garage. 

How about your Washy that you planted in the ground this year?  I bought two from HD and they grew like gangbusters.  Before the storm they looked great.  Now they are basically dead.

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1 hour ago, Fallen Munk said:

22F.  Its not the cold that kills them here, it's the wet.  They rot.

Alright, yeahh i heard the filiferas are sensible to wetness and humidity - but that sensible that they going to die is regrettable. So armata can handle these conditions better, as i assume from your experience. 

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On 12/27/2022 at 11:09 AM, Armata79 said:

Alright, yeahh i heard the filiferas are sensible to wetness and humidity - but that sensible that they going to die is regrettable. So armata can handle these conditions better, as i assume from your experience. 

Yes.

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It’s doing ok. Took some minor cosmetic damage, but I did cover it with high quality frost cloth, which does a pretty good job of repelling water. 
 

My bigger one looks great but it does have moisture protection and I threw some lights around the base those few days. 

446D49CE-6C4B-485E-8F07-3CD07BB075E6.jpeg

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14 minutes ago, Chester B said:

It’s doing ok. Took some minor cosmetic damage, but I did cover it with high quality frost cloth, which does a pretty good job of repelling water. 
 

My bigger one looks great but it does have moisture protection and I threw some lights around the base those few days. 

446D49CE-6C4B-485E-8F07-3CD07BB075E6.jpeg

Wow, yours looks great!  Mine are black.  

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Same experience here in winterwet Amsterdam. i have 2 armata’s that never lost a spear. During a really cold frostweek i add  some trunkprotection but never a roof. The fronds are never damaged.

I have 2 filifera’s planted next to each other. One of them was killed last winter that was nearly frostfree and very wet. The other is alive but suffers severe leafdamage every winter. 

Armata is a clear winner.

 

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24 minutes ago, Chester B said:

It’s doing ok. Took some minor cosmetic damage, but I did cover it with high quality frost cloth, which does a pretty good job of repelling water. 
 

My bigger one looks great but it does have moisture protection and I threw some lights around the base those few days. 

446D49CE-6C4B-485E-8F07-3CD07BB075E6.jpeg

Wow, that filifera looks unscratched! Good job!

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10 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Same experience here in winterwet Amsterdam. i have 2 armata’s that never lost a spear. During a really cold frostweek i add  some trunkprotection but never a roof. The fronds are never damaged.

I have 2 filifera’s planted next to each other. One of them was killed last winter that was nearly frostfree and very wet. The other is alive but suffers severe leafdamage every winter. 

Armata is a clear winner.

 

Thanks Axel for sharing your experiences with those species. So far, armata is winning the race against filifera. What a pity that armata is not more often seen in temperate gardens. So much beauty and potential in this specific plant. This is also due to the fact that brahea armata are much more expensive than washingtonias, especially if you want larger specimens.

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12 minutes ago, Armata79 said:

Wow, that filifera looks unscratched! Good job!

Sorry it’s mostly robusta. I’ve had filifera before and they struggle. 
 

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2 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Sorry it’s mostly robusta. I’ve had filifera before and they struggle. 
 

Alright, so robusta or maybe filibusta did great so far.. 

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Same here, in mild wet winters robusta or filibusta do really well. No spearloss and generally looking ok. Its just that it cant take the occasional -6c/-7c nights combined with 0C days for too long. So they get wiped out every couple of years.

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5 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Same here, in mild wet winters robusta or filibusta do really well. No spearloss and generally looking ok. Its just that it cant take the occasional -6c/-7c nights combined with 0C days for too long. So they get wiped out every couple of years.

Alright, yes i also had positive experiences with  my "robusta sonora"  in humid winter conditons as i wrap my plant with straw and many layers of fleece and plastic foil from December until March here in Austria. When i open this kind of winter shelter in spring the materials are usually quite wet then, so some leafs get bit damaged (cant say from temperature or too much moisture) but outgrow very fast as it gets warmer.

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around me filifera tend to burn around 8-10F and armata around 5F. The Brahea are definitely hardier, but much slower to recover from temps around 1F. 

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I am curious to know what people from cooler wetter winterclimates think of armata versus jubaea in terms of hardiness. I mean comparable sizes ofcourse. 

I have a feeling they are close except for the spearrotting issues in some armata’s, which they can overcome but sets them back. 

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4 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

I am curious to know what people from cooler wetter winterclimates think of armata versus jubaea in terms of hardiness. I mean comparable sizes ofcourse. 

I have a feeling they are close except for the spearrotting issues in some armata’s, which they can overcome but sets them back. 

Jubaea is hardier - there are long term ones around the PNW, but no Armata that I know of.  I don't know if this is merely due to lack of availability or trying, but Jubaea are ok with wet winters, whereas armata most times seem to limp through them.

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Here in northeast Louisiana both species are nearly equal in leaf hardiness (low to mid teens) and overall performance.  Filifera is faster and obtains full grandeur, but while armata grows much more quickly than expected (replaces full crown in a season), none of my 3 look nearly as good as the ones out west.  Two now have impressive clear trunk at over 10’ from 15 gallons planted 15 years ago.  Will be interesting to get home and see how they look after this latest freeze with 20 mph winds for 24 hours at temps in the low teens.  11F night one and then 26/16 the next day

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On 12/29/2022 at 1:35 PM, Chester B said:

Jubaea is hardier - there are long term ones around the PNW, but no Armata that I know of.  I don't know if this is merely due to lack of availability or trying, but Jubaea are ok with wet winters, whereas armata most times seem to limp through them.

Bananajoe from salt spring had 2 Jubaeas die last winter. One had some size to it. His Armata survived. 

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1 hour ago, Palmfarmer said:

Bananajoe from salt spring had 2 Jubaeas die last winter. One had some size to it. His Armata survived. 

Thats interesting, do you have some pictures of these palms, to compare them sizewise?

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24 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Thats interesting, do you have some pictures of these palms, to compare them sizewise?

Hit his U tube channel up, he has 100’s of videos posted on his palms. 

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9 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

Bananajoe from salt spring had 2 Jubaeas die last winter. One had some size to it. His Armata survived. 

Yes you are correct.  Siting plays a role, I believe is armata is in a protected spot.  There are long term Jubaea in Seattle, but no armata that I know of.  I have heard of only one Armata around here other than mine in the ground, but Jubaea are more common.

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8 hours ago, Chester B said:

Yes you are correct.  Siting plays a role, I believe is armata is in a protected spot.  There are long term Jubaea in Seattle, but no armata that I know of.  I have heard of only one Armata around here other than mine in the ground, but Jubaea are more common.

Ok, i had a look at his video’s. He had a small jubaea that spearpulled, the small armata next to it spearpulled as well. A butiagrus next to that didn’t spearpull. That was damage after winter 2021. I dont know which of these survived. 

He spoke about a bigger armata he owned that went into decline since winter 2008 and he showed a large jubaea in some public garden next to the sea that spearpulled and died. This one had nearly all his fronds cutoff by some gardener in the years prior so perhaps it was weakened when the frost came. Frost was only  -8C and days of subfreezing temps.

So there dont seem to be many lessons except that some palms spearpull and make it and other’s don’t. The hardiness of jubaea is not a sure thing in his climate though.

Edited by Axel Amsterdam
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42 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Ok, i had a look at his video’s. He had a small jubaea that spearpulled, the small armata next to it spearpulled as well. A butiagrus next to that didn’t spearpull. That was damage after winter 2021. I dont know which of these survived. 

He spoke about a bigger armata he owned that went into decline since winter 2008 and he showed a large jubaea in some public garden next to the sea that spearpulled and died. This one had nearly all his fronds cutoff by some gardener in the years prior so perhaps it was weakened when the frost came. Frost was only  -8C and days of subfreezing temps.

So there dont seem to be many lessons except that some palms spearpull and make it and other’s don’t. The hardiness of jubaea is not a sure thing in his climate though.

Joe's absolute minimums are not that low. However its usually wet cold and its chilly a long time after a big dips in temperatures. 

Remember he had a bucket over a Canariensis in his coldest microclimate and it did fine that winter. 

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Came home to my three large Brahea armata 100% burned and my 30’ filiferas are close to that level of burn too.  First time I have seen my large Chamaerops cerifera burn (especially on newer fronds), but the green ones burned 100% and as expected.  Sabal mexicana is not showing much browning yet which is a bit surprising as they have near 100% burned in previous events.  Large butia range from zero burn showing to almost 100%.  Large 10’  jubaea and 15’ BxJ so far unaffected but I expect at least moderate spear damage on the Jubaea come spring.  Phoenix canariensis not only burned but fronds totally collapsed (no snow or ice to blame).  All citrus, olive, and camellia completely blazed.  Mass planting a of huge Serenoa look unfased, but from past experience the newer fronds on most trunks will eventually die and pull, leading to at least 50% trunk death.  Sabal uresana silver are defoliated.  Some local Sabal palmettos have burn but not mine.

Edited by ryjohn
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I came back to San Antonio after the recent freeze and all of the robustas are burnt to a crisp, meanwhile filiferas seem fine. 

As far as armata, I haven't seen one growing here. Someone posted a beautiful one growing in El Paso for years, and it eventually froze, meanwhile filiferas keep chugging along out there. I've always been under the impression the Braheas are less hardy than Washingtonias, but I'd love to be wrong about that. I recently picked up a nice armata.

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23 minutes ago, fr8train said:

I came back to San Antonio after the recent freeze and all of the robustas are burnt to a crisp, meanwhile filiferas seem fine. 

As far as armata, I haven't seen one growing here. Someone posted a beautiful one growing in El Paso for years, and it eventually froze, meanwhile filiferas keep chugging along out there. I've always been under the impression the Braheas are less hardy than Washingtonias, but I'd love to be wrong about that. I recently picked up a nice armata.

I posted the armata in El Paso. There is no mentioning of it being frosted. It was removed though.

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7 hours ago, ryjohn said:

Came home to my three large Brahea armata 100% burned and my 30’ filiferas are close to that level of burn too.  First time I have seen my large Chamaerops cerifera burn (especially on newer fronds), but the green ones burned 100% and as expected.  Sabal mexicana is not showing much browning yet which is a bit surprising as they have near 100% burned in previous events.  Large butia range from zero burn showing to almost 100%.  Large 10’  jubaea and 15’ BxJ so far unaffected but I expect at least moderate spear damage on the Jubaea come spring.  Phoenix canariensis not only burned but fronds totally collapsed (no snow or ice to blame).  All citrus, olive, and camellia completely blazed.  Mass planting a of huge Serenoa look unfased, but from past experience the newer fronds on most trunks will eventually die and pull, leading to at least 50% trunk death.  Sabal uresana silver are defoliated.  Some local Sabal palmettos have burn but not mine.

Do you know what you low temps were? I think you said you were away so might not have that information. Hope your palms pull through. Edit: looks like you saw 11, I’m surprised you saw palmetto’s burned. 
 

My hunch is if you have seen palmetto’s burned single digits are to blame. Some areas around here saw low teens and I haven’t seen any burn on palmetto’s or butia for that matter. 

Edited by RJ
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Where I am at it is possible we saw 10F, but since this area is so flat you do not get a lot of variation. The bigger factor was the wind, which was 15-25 mph the entirety of the time it went from 30F the evening of December 22, to 10F the next morning, and then back up to a high of 26 the next day (lowest daytime high I have seen here in NE Louisiana in 16 years).  Then the wind was still significant at 10mph as it got back down to 17 that next night.  The high was 36F that next afternoon and the 44/23 the day after that.  I work at an industrial plant and have never seen things freeze up there as quickly as what they did this event— 8 hours quicker than a typical single digit overnight freeze.   This likely means this freeze event was the worst one my garden has experienced as well.  The duration of this freeze was nothing compared to the one in Feb 2021, but in that event ultimate low was kept to 16F here because we barely kept our cloud cover (unlike Shreveport and Dallas).  My garden has experienced two previous freezes into the high single digits but both with low wind and sun the following day getting temps up to 30F.  I do think my big Jubaea could meet its end with this event, even though it looks good still after a week in the 70’s.  We got upwards of 5” of rain two days ago in a long string of thunderstorms.  Luckily my yard is well-draining with lighter soil

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7 hours ago, ryjohn said:

Where I am at it is possible we saw 10F, but since this area is so flat you do not get a lot of variation. The bigger factor was the wind, which was 15-25 mph the entirety of the time it went from 30F the evening of December 22, to 10F the next morning, and then back up to a high of 26 the next day (lowest daytime high I have seen here in NE Louisiana in 16 years).  Then the wind was still significant at 10mph as it got back down to 17 that next night.  The high was 36F that next afternoon and the 44/23 the day after that.  I work at an industrial plant and have never seen things freeze up there as quickly as what they did this event— 8 hours quicker than a typical single digit overnight freeze.   This likely means this freeze event was the worst one my garden has experienced as well.  The duration of this freeze was nothing compared to the one in Feb 2021, but in that event ultimate low was kept to 16F here because we barely kept our cloud cover (unlike Shreveport and Dallas).  My garden has experienced two previous freezes into the high single digits but both with low wind and sun the following day getting temps up to 30F.  I do think my big Jubaea could meet its end with this event, even though it looks good still after a week in the 70’s.  We got upwards of 5” of rain two days ago in a long string of thunderstorms.  Luckily my yard is well-draining with lighter soil

Hope it pulls through, we got all that rain the last few days. We several thunderstorms roll through, it rained like a summer time boomer. Very strange. 
 

do keep us posted on how things progress 🤞

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20 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

I posted the armata in El Paso. There is no mentioning of it being frosted. It was removed though.

Interesting, I thought it burnt, but hopefully it's happily transplanted elsewhere. 

I went down to an area that I read about armata growing here in San Antonio today, and they look great. Completely unfazed by a recent freeze. 

Edited by fr8train
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My experience comparing smaller Armata is that they start leaf damage about 12f.  The plants die about 11f.  So when young, the leaf and plant lethality temperatures are about the same.  So when young, the leaves are hardier than small filifera. 

Trunking specimens from Las Cruces/El Paso survived 0f to -5f in 2011.  

Very rare palm.

 

Edited by jwitt
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