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Polar Vortex 2022...... who's ready?


Sabal King

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19 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

Do they even sell sylvester dates at the store? As far as I know they're all from dactylifera, at least that I've seen, varieties like medjool, zahidi, deglet noor are all from dactylifera.

No idea to be honest .. I’m not up on my Phoenix spp. nor what the dates are in stores 🤦‍♂️

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47 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

Do they even sell sylvester dates at the store? As far as I know they're all from dactylifera, at least that I've seen, varieties like medjool, zahidi, deglet noor are all from dactylifera.

@RJ it's like the blind leading the blind over here 😂

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On 12/26/2022 at 10:09 AM, Dartolution said:

@tlow Leaving the hybrid out was a "if it survives, it survives" decision. At this point I have to prioritize what is most important vs what I am willing to part with. 

Truth is, I have ran out of room in this tiny townhouse of mine with everything that has grown - time to start looking to move! 

Does your BxJ have hooks at the tips of the newly emerging fronds? 

 

 

Yes it does... the hooks I believe only go about halfway up though, and don't go up all the way.IMG_20221228_114251.thumb.JPG.71414db94bed5476c6958bcb3158667e.JPGIMG_20221228_114242.thumb.JPG.77ad6426fbae1269c0131cbc11ea5ec1.JPGIMG_20221228_114239.thumb.JPG.51ef3aed02ce08225fada3673fbe0e93.JPG

Love this thing.. it's a beauty, and along with a beautiful 5G JxB i'm planting this spring, these are likely the only two getting serious protection going forward...

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Subscribe to my YouTube here  to follow along my Sabal obsession....  Quite possibly one of the biggest Sabal plantings in the US.

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/sabalking.texas

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1 hour ago, Xerarch said:

Do they even sell sylvester dates at the store? As far as I know they're all from dactylifera, at least that I've seen, varieties like medjool, zahidi, deglet noor are all from dactylifera.

This is correct as far as I know.

@RJ The large juicy dates in the stores are Medjool.  The dry, pasty, almost sandy types are usually deglet noor.  Either way, it doesn't matter all that much because most of the offspring are not true to type.  One way to get Phoenix sylvestris is to have friends where they are present and get seeds from them.  Unfortunately, there is a good chance they are hybrids at that point.

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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1 hour ago, DAVEinMB said:

@RJ it's like the blind leading the blind over here 😂

Hey how to your Lyto’s fair? 

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24 minutes ago, RJ said:

Hey how to your Lyto’s fair? 

I'm up to 4 total now, 2 Hoehnei and 2 insigne. the Hoehnei got wrapped in burlap, sweatshirts, and Christmas lights; the insigne are both much smaller so I put 5 gallon buckets over them and then covered the buckets in heavy blankets. Basically relied on ground heat to help them through. 

I removed all the protection this morning and so far they all look pretty good. The Hoehnei aren't even showing foliage burn on any of the exposed fronds. This coming week is going to be pretty warm so I guess we'll see if anything changes. I likely won't be able to post any pics until after new years tho 

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Edited by DAVEinMB
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16 minutes ago, DAVEinMB said:

I'm up to 4 total now, 2 Hoehnei and 2 insigne. the Hoehnei got wrapped in burlap, sweatshirts, and Christmas lights; the insigne are both much smaller so I put 5 gallon buckets over them and then covered the buckets in heavy blankets. Basically relied on ground heat to help them through. 

I removed all the protection this morning and so far they all look pretty good. The Hoehnei aren't even showing foliage burn on any of the exposed fronds. This coming week is going to be pretty warm so I guess we'll see if anything changes. I likely won't be able to post any pics until after new years tho 

 

You’ve got hoehni and insigne ! Two that I really want to add to my collection. If they set seeds I’ll make the drive ! If you’re willing of course 😏

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34 minutes ago, RJ said:

You’ve got hoehni and insigne ! Two that I really want to add to my collection. If they set seeds I’ll make the drive ! If you’re willing of course 😏

I've got a good source 😉 haha and you're more than welcome to seeds if they ever give me any. I can ship if you'd like to avoid the drive but you're also welcome to check out the garden.

Fingers crossed that the Hoehnei come out of winter happy enough to make an attempt to seed... this year they waited until the end of fall to push inflorescence

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25 minutes ago, DAVEinMB said:

I've got a good source 😉 haha and you're more than welcome to seeds if they ever give me any. I can ship if you'd like to avoid the drive but you're also welcome to check out the garden.

Fingers crossed that the Hoehnei come out of winter happy enough to make an attempt to seed... this year they waited until the end of fall to push inflorescence

My oldest brother just moved to MB a few months ago, so it’ll give me an excuse to go see him. But if timing doesn’t jive with seed preparations  I’ll take shipping too. 👍

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Well…arctic invasion is on its way out…the Chamaerops got damaged like never before in its 8 years in-ground…looks like all the fronds got fried, including the emerging ones but no spear pull on any of the trunks…had minimal protection…some 8-10f nights with sub freezing days but I guess, to keep it nice, I’ll need to more formally protect it in the future…everything else totally unprotected look great! The Trachy segments are flattening out…it’s an amazing palm. The Brazoria? no problems…the lowest frond has damage but it’s being naturally retired by the palm anyway. Needles could care less, amazing palms for NOVA as well the other Sabals McCurtain and minor…really happy to see these results…this was a good test for the unprotected…much more confident in their established resilience, especially the Trachy and the Brazoria!

The “Could Care Less Crowd”

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The “I Need Help” club

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but I should have known this would be the outcome, though I did wrap it up and lay a blanket of lights on the ground, just not enough…
 

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19 minutes ago, GregVirginia7 said:

Well…arctic invasion is on its way out…the Chamaerops got damaged like never before in its 8 years in-ground…looks like all the fronds got fried, including the emerging ones but no spear pull on any of the trunks…had minimal protection…some 8-10f nights with sub freezing days but I guess, to keep it nice, I’ll need to more formally protect it in the future…everything else totally unprotected look great! The Trachy segments are flattening out…it’s an amazing palm. The Brazoria? no problems…the lowest frond has damage but it’s being naturally retired by the palm anyway. Needles could care less, amazing palms for NOVA as well the other Sabals McCurtain and minor…really happy to see these results…this was a good test for the unprotected…much more confident in their established resilience, especially the Trachy and the Brazoria!

The “Could Care Less Crowd”

The “I Need Help” club

but I should have known this would be the outcome, though I did wrap it up and lay a blanket of lights on the ground, just not enough…
 

Good report and at 8-10F those Sabal/needles should be pretty much undamaged.  I would expect though some spotting or streaking on the Trachy fronds though at that temp.  Let us know if the Trachy fronds have spots or mild damage when it warms for a week.

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  18' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia odorata (1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -6F, -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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On 12/26/2022 at 12:27 PM, teddytn said:

Walked around the yard and checked out all the minors that have been hanging in the breeze since this started. Quite a bit that have burned leaves. Some looking shriveled. We did a night with a low of -4 and a high of 4, then a low of -2 and a high of 10. Two more days and nights that it hasn’t gone above freezing. Anything that survived in any condition I’ll consider a success. I’ve talked to people that have lived here their whole lives and never saw these temps. Still have potential for worse temps and weather to come before winter is over. No telling what another round of this will do. I haven’t looked at anything that’s been covered. Could be complete massacre. 

Your TN zone really draws in the cold…you are at a NC latitude and my NOVA is quite a bit north of you but I guess those Allegheny and Appalachian Plateau wedges really file the sinking cold cold air into your region…we didn’t have any temperatures like you report here, though we did have a couple night/day sub freezing periods, we rebounded with above freezing days thereafter…the survivors will be your palms for sure…do you have any Needles? overall, they have been my best as they take massive cold, ice, snow but they grow much faster than my Sabals and get a bit of a trunk as well…

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7 minutes ago, GregVirginia7 said:

…do you have any Needles? overall, they have been my best as they take massive cold, ice, snow but they grow much faster than my Sabals and get a bit of a trunk as well…

Yes 7, Everything I have planted in-ground is in my signature

Edited by Allen

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  18' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia odorata (1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -6F, -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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12 minutes ago, Allen said:

Good report and at 8-10F those Sabal/needles should be pretty much undamaged.  I would expect though some spotting or streaking on the Trachy fronds though at that temp.  Let us know if the Trachy fronds have spots or mild damage when it warms for a week.

Will do…as I said earlier, the segments never closed as tightly as they did this round…it has fascinated me for years. Honestly, it has never lost a segment/frond to cold all these going on 9 years. It has always reacted to cold by closing the segments but this time it resembled more the pictures of a fried Trachy and it had me worried but they are opening up…we’ll see how it looks in a few days…going to really warm up here but get wet this weekend so will copper fungicide the crowns of everything, especially the Chamaerops…will be in touch with an update.

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6 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

Back to the UK vs S Texas debate/ discussion call me a skeptic. I’m a natural skeptic, you have to show me. I’m sure they have a great, mild oceanic climate, but to date no one has shown me even one towering CIDP or Washingtonia Robusta in London. None. Sure I’ve seen large CIDP, but to me it’s obvious that they aren’t more than 30 or 40 years old. Where are the 50-100 year old CIDP and Robusta?  Are we to believe that no one planted any palms back then?  No one was interested in palms back then?  Where are they?  Even with the 2021 freeze we can provide video evidence of 60 or 70 foot pencil thin Washingtonia Robusta in downtown San Antonio TX that survived the freezes. Where are they in the UK?  I haven’t seen any comparable palms and I’ve looked. Don’t get me wrong there are impressive palms just not as impressive. Does the oceanic climate keep them smaller?  I guess that could be one explanation. This is not meant to belittle anyone’s climate only for discussion purposes. Why don’t we see LA or RGV, or even downtown San Antonio level Washingtonia towering over the skyline?

Personally I think not many people have not actually bothered trying many palms here. In the 1960s London got pretty cold but after seeing the temperatures some Washingtonia survived in Texas some if planted possibly may have survived in central London. The urban heat island wasn't as big then as it is now and London's average every 10 years have been increasing quite a lot. Even now despite lots of palms mainly small ones are available since they only became popular in the last 10-20 years in most garden centers. I would still say we are temperate oceanic climate, however I would agree with the metoffice that we are transitioning to a Mediterranean climate. The winters are slightly wetter and milder and the summers are significantly warmer and drier. I have lost count but my washingtonia Robusta has pushed out around 26-28 fronds this year it's still growing now in the winter. They easily grow 3ft per year in central London.  I feel that people in the UK grow mostly the same old things and don't ever take advantage of their microclimate, especially people in the warmer parts. If you live in central London why plant another phoenix canariensis instead of a dactylifera or Sylvesteris for example if you collect palms since those are fairly hard to get for the average person who doesn't know anything about palms here. Texas is a better climate untill that 1 cold freeze hits. The scilly isles have canary island date palms there that were planted in the 1800s. There's also a big Washingtonia there but I'm not sure how old it is. The palms grow slower there than London due to the much cooler summer there since they get a cool year round Atlantic influence whilst the south east gets the weather quite often from southern Europe and on occasions the Sahara dessert. It's not too uncommon to get sand dumped all over London brought up by winds from the Sahara.  I wouldn't say there is a huge difference between Washingtonia growth rates in California and London, at least from my experience and seeing images of how fast the ones in California grow. Here's the robusta on at the tresco abbey gardens and a CIDP, the Earls court robusta which in this photo is around 15 years old and something UK palms posted showing the growth rate of Washingtonia in southern England. @UK_PalmsDo you have any updated photos of the Earls court robusta?

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The local weather station said we would have a low of 20f Friday night, but it ultimately only dropped to a low of 21f for about 30 minutes Saturday morning with a high of about 36f during the day- but it stayed below freezing most of the day. The local weather station said the temperature Sunday morning was 22f for about 45 minutes with a high in the mid 40’s. Monday morning it supposedly got to a low of 23f for an hour, but our day time high was in the low 50’s. 
 

Here are some pictures 4 days after our low of 21f Saturday morning. I think I am a little warmer here in the middle of town than the small airport 25 miles north of here where they get our temperatures, because I’m still not seeing the damage I should see already.  I did cover the Pygmy palms with some moss and blankets, and I stuffed some moss and some towels around the spear of the queen and Sylvester. 
 

 

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Edited by Jcalvin
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3 hours ago, GregVirginia7 said:

Your TN zone really draws in the cold…you are at a NC latitude and my NOVA is quite a bit north of you but I guess those Allegheny and Appalachian Plateau wedges really file the sinking cold cold air into your region…we didn’t have any temperatures like you report here, though we did have a couple night/day sub freezing periods, we rebounded with above freezing days thereafter…the survivors will be your palms for sure…do you have any Needles? overall, they have been my best as they take massive cold, ice, snow but they grow much faster than my Sabals and get a bit of a trunk as well…

Yes sir! I’ve got 3 needles in the ground, 1 of them being my biggest palm period. As soon as they get through their first winter in the ground they’re tanks. Seem to be susceptible to spear pull in my experience the first winter. 
Just in one of the weird geographic locations here. We get tons of heat in the summer and then can get really bad winter weather as well. This year has been wild on both accounts. 

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Climate of South Great Britain has been relatively warm for centuries but it was not that long ago during the Maunder Minimum when it was really cold.  Cold enough to give stories about sleigh rides across the English Channel.  The sun has been acting different in last couple decades according to some, but does anyone really know that much about the sun and for how long?

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5 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

Personally I think not many people have not actually bothered trying many palms here. In the 1960s London got pretty cold but after seeing the temperatures some Washingtonia survived in Texas some if planted possibly may have survived in central London. The urban heat island wasn't as big then as it is now and London's average every 10 years have been increasing quite a lot. Even now despite lots of palms mainly small ones are available since they only became popular in the last 10-20 years in most garden centers. I would still say we are temperate oceanic climate, however I would agree with the metoffice that we are transitioning to a Mediterranean climate. The winters are slightly wetter and milder and the summers are significantly warmer and drier. I have lost count but my washingtonia Robusta has pushed out around 26-28 fronds this year it's still growing now in the winter. They easily grow 3ft per year in central London.  I feel that people in the UK grow mostly the same old things and don't ever take advantage of their microclimate, especially people in the warmer parts. If you live in central London why plant another phoenix canariensis instead of a dactylifera or Sylvesteris for example if you collect palms since those are fairly hard to get for the average person who doesn't know anything about palms here. Texas is a better climate untill that 1 cold freeze hits. The scilly isles have canary island date palms there that were planted in the 1800s. There's also a big Washingtonia there but I'm not sure how old it is. The palms grow slower there than London due to the much cooler summer there since they get a cool year round Atlantic influence whilst the south east gets the weather quite often from southern Europe and on occasions the Sahara dessert. It's not too uncommon to get sand dumped all over London brought up by winds from the Sahara.  I wouldn't say there is a huge difference between Washingtonia growth rates in California and London, at least from my experience and seeing images of how fast the ones in California grow. Here's the robusta on at the tresco abbey gardens and a CIDP, the Earls court robusta which in this photo is around 15 years old and something UK palms posted showing the growth rate of Washingtonia in southern England. @UK_PalmsDo you have any updated photos of the Earls court robusta?

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Thanks for the photo evidence. I’ve seen those palms before. Could that Washingtonia be a hybrid?  The trunk looks quite thick. The date palm is quite tall also. Are there any specimens like this on mainland UK or in the London area?

I know there are large dates and Washingtonia in London, I was just wondering if there are any classic skyscraper Washingtonia on the mainland UK. I’d be happy to be proven wrong about my skepticism. They exist in south and SE Texas including Houston and San Antonio, despite our freezes. A lot were killed in 2021, but not all. We have a fantastic palm growing climate outside of 1-3 nights a year with an unbelievable amount of warmth and heat nearly year round. If only there was a body of water north of us. Even New Orleans is somewhat protected by a small lake to its north. 
 

I had a Robusta in my yard that was taller than the London ones you posted here in New Braunfels. It had been growing since 2004. I lost it in the 2021 freeze, but not everyone lost theirs. 

Edited by NBTX11
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I think this is a Meyer lemon tree but I could be wrong, I took a fruit and it resembled a lemon on the inside. Anyways I’m wondering why the leaves are still green and the tree looks decent for seeing two days below freezing. Anyone familiar with these trees? Maybe they are more cold hardy than expected. I’ve seen several around town in yards.

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36 minutes ago, Jtee said:

I think this is a Meyer lemon tree but I could be wrong, I took a fruit and it resembled a lemon on the inside. Anyways I’m wondering why the leaves are still green and the tree looks decent for seeing two days below freezing. Anyone familiar with these trees? Maybe they are more cold hardy than expected. I’ve seen several around town in yards.

 

Can you get a closeup of the leaves? Probably trifoliate orange or a hybrid like citrumelo, both are common rootstocks for edible citrus

Edited by Xenon

Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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6 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

Personally I think not many people have not actually bothered trying many palms here. In the 1960s London got pretty cold but after seeing the temperatures some Washingtonia survived in Texas some if planted possibly may have survived in central London. The urban heat island wasn't as big then as it is now and London's average every 10 years have been increasing quite a lot. Even now despite lots of palms mainly small ones are available since they only became popular in the last 10-20 years in most garden centers. I would still say we are temperate oceanic climate, however I would agree with the metoffice that we are transitioning to a Mediterranean climate. The winters are slightly wetter and milder and the summers are significantly warmer and drier. I have lost count but my washingtonia Robusta has pushed out around 26-28 fronds this year it's still growing now in the winter. They easily grow 3ft per year in central London.  I feel that people in the UK grow mostly the same old things and don't ever take advantage of their microclimate, especially people in the warmer parts. If you live in central London why plant another phoenix canariensis instead of a dactylifera or Sylvesteris for example if you collect palms since those are fairly hard to get for the average person who doesn't know anything about palms here. Texas is a better climate untill that 1 cold freeze hits. The scilly isles have canary island date palms there that were planted in the 1800s. There's also a big Washingtonia there but I'm not sure how old it is. The palms grow slower there than London due to the much cooler summer there since they get a cool year round Atlantic influence whilst the south east gets the weather quite often from southern Europe and on occasions the Sahara dessert. It's not too uncommon to get sand dumped all over London brought up by winds from the Sahara.  I wouldn't say there is a huge difference between Washingtonia growth rates in California and London, at least from my experience and seeing images of how fast the ones in California grow. Here's the robusta on at the tresco abbey gardens and a CIDP, the Earls court robusta which in this photo is around 15 years old and something UK palms posted showing the growth rate of Washingtonia in southern England. @UK_PalmsDo you have any updated photos of the Earls court robusta?

None of those palms look like Washingtonia robusta imo. The trunk on the first one is too thick, columnar, and "severe". The petioles on the Earls court palm are too long/exposed and the crown also too long/ovular.  All of these are filifera traits that commonly show up in hybrids. Based on web pictures, it seems that most Washingtonia in Europe are mutts...especially newer plantings and nursery stock. It seems that most real looking robusta are at least several decades old in southern Europe. 

True Hollywood W. robusta has a pencil thin trunk with a swollen base, typically with twists in the trunk with age, and a compact nearly circular crown. The differences become very apparent in larger palms. 

The bit of filifera genes in a majority robusta mutt does wonders...suddenly you have a palm that can be 10 degrees more cold hardy (depending on the gentic lottery). 

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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@Foxpalms What are those photos you uploaded from Tresco!? They do an injustice to the Robusta and CIDP’s! I visited them in August and they look much better then what those photos show.

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I didn't want to post photos in here because it isn’t really relevant to the topic, but I had to after seeing the photos you posted. As for the Earls Court Robusta, I haven’t got any updates on it still. The most recent image is at least 2 years old now. As soon as I get any updates I will post them. There is another Robusta as big as the Tresco one in Mayfair, central London but it is hidden away in a back yard. It was planted small in like 1970 or something.

@Xenon I am not a Washingtonia expert but the Tresco one and Earl’s Court one in central London do look like Robusta’s to me. At the very least they are Robusta dominant hybrids, but I think the jury is out on that. The Earls Court one especially has a very thin, rail-like trunk. The other huge one in Mayfair is definitely a Robusta as it is a literal skyduster. It’s almost twice as big as the Earl’s Court one. Based on what you say, we’ll assume they have a bit of Filifera genetics in there however. I suppose you think the Greenwich one in east London isn’t a Robusta as well then?

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

@Foxpalms What are those photos you uploaded from Tresco!? They do an injustice to the Robusta and CIDP’s! 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure why but the image quality always gets downgraded when upload images to Palmtalk. Also I didn't pick and choose the nicest looking photos I had, instead I was trying to show the size of the palms. The largest Washingtonia at Tresco also doesn't look completely healthy like the smaller more recently planted ones. The gardeners there mentioned that it was growing on top of rock with not much soil underneath it so the roots are probably restricted. @NBTX11 What percentage of Washingtonia in Texas are actually pure robusta? You also have to bear in mind it's only the last 10 years, escpially the last 5, washingtonia have been commonly sold in gardens centers. I have seen some small very robusta looking palms around but there aren't that old. We will have to see in another 10 years how big the Washingtonia will get but from my experience they are by far the fastest palms I have at least 2-3ft per year.  I can go to a garden center and at least 1/4th will have Washingtonia in the summer whilst 10 years ago you would of had to go to an exotic plants nursery unless you got very lucky. Before that most were probably grown from seed. Canary Island dates palms though are much more commonly sold here but they grow much slower.

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40 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

I'm not sure why but the image quality always gets downgraded when upload images to Palmtalk. Also I didn't pick and choose the nicest looking photos I had, instead I was trying to show the size of the palms. The largest Washingtonia at Tresco also doesn't look completely healthy like the smaller more recently planted ones. The gardeners there mentioned that it was growing on top of rock with not much soil underneath it so the roots are probably restricted. @NBTX11 What percentage of Washingtonia in Texas are actually pure robusta? You also have to bear in mind it's only the last 10 years, escpially the last 5, washingtonia have been commonly sold in gardens centers. I have seen some small very robusta looking palms around but there aren't that old. We will have to see in another 10 years how big the Washingtonia will get but from my experience they are by far the fastest palms I have at least 2-3ft per year.  I can go to a garden center and at least 1/4th will have Washingtonia in the summer whilst 10 years ago you would of had to go to an exotic plants nursery unless you got very lucky. Before that most were probably grown from seed. Canary Island dates palms though are much more commonly sold here but they grow much slower.

Many pure Robusta were killed in Feb 21. Some lived. I’m speaking strictly for the San Antonio area. If you’re speaking strictly of the Los Angeles style palms, then most of those died. Most of what remains is hybrids and Filifera. There are some really old Washingtonia left possibly 100 years old or more. I’ve seen some impressive and tall hybrids left. There are a handful of LA style pencil thin Robusta left in downtown SA and along the riverwalk.  From the photos I’ve seen of the London Washingtonia, I’d say that here they would get to that height in less than 15 years. The Tresco palm looks like a hybrid to me. Washingtonia get taller than the Tresco palm here in less than 30 years or so. I grew one that was over 40 feet tall in 17 years and it was nowhere near the tallest palm around. It was actually average to small in comparison to others around. There are still 60 plus footers around in San Antonio (70 feet??). Hybrids can get really tall as well. 

Edited by NBTX11
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2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@Foxpalms

@Xenon I am not a Washingtonia expert but the Tresco one and Earl’s Court one in central London do look like Robusta’s to me. At the very least they are Robusta dominant hybrids, but I think the jury is out on that. The Earls Court one especially has a very thin, rail-like trunk. The other huge one in Mayfair is definitely a Robusta as it is a literal skyduster. It’s almost twice as big as the Earl’s Court one. Based on what you say, we’ll assume they have a bit of Filifera genetics in there however. I suppose you think the Greenwich one in east London isn’t a Robusta as well then?

It looks like a standard mutt you'd find in central Texas imo 

Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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35 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Many pure Robusta were killed in Feb 21. Some lived. I’m speaking strictly for the San Antonio area. If you’re speaking strictly of the Los Angeles style palms, then most of those died. Most of what remains is hybrids and Filifera. There are some really old Washingtonia left possibly 100 years old or more. I’ve seen some impressive and tall hybrids left. There are a handful of LA style pencil thin Robusta left in downtown SA and along the riverwalk.  From the photos I’ve seen of the London Washingtonia, I’d say that here they would get to that height in less than 15 years. The Tresco palm looks like a hybrid to me. Washingtonia get taller than the Tresco palm here in less than 30 years or so. I grew one that was over 40 feet tall in 17 years and it was nowhere near the tallest palm around. It was actually average to small in comparison to others around. There are still 60 plus footers around in San Antonio (70 feet??). Hybrids can get really tall as well. 

Pure robustas will be fine in London's climate I just don't think they are easy to find for sale. Most ones sold in garden centers are hybrids but I have seen in exotic plant nurseries some very robusta and filifera looking palms. We will have to wait a few years but eventually there will be plenty of big Washingtonia around. @XenonWould you say this Washingtonia filifera (what it's labelled as) for sale is a hybrid?

Screenshot_20221229-153038689 (1).jpg

Edited by Foxpalms
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1 hour ago, NBTX11 said:

Many pure Robusta were killed in Feb 21. Some lived. I’m speaking strictly for the San Antonio area. If you’re speaking strictly of the Los Angeles style palms, then most of those died. Most of what remains is hybrids and Filifera. There are some really old Washingtonia left possibly 100 years old or more. I’ve seen some impressive and tall hybrids left. There are a handful of LA style pencil thin Robusta left in downtown SA and along the riverwalk.  From the photos I’ve seen of the London Washingtonia, I’d say that here they would get to that height in less than 15 years. The Tresco palm looks like a hybrid to me. Washingtonia get taller than the Tresco palm here in less than 30 years or so. I grew one that was over 40 feet tall in 17 years and it was nowhere near the tallest palm around. It was actually average to small in comparison to others around. There are still 60 plus footers around in San Antonio (70 feet??). Hybrids can get really tall as well. 

Here are some LA style Robusta in San Antonio that survived the 2021 freeze.

 

 

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Edited by Teegurr
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1 hour ago, Teegurr said:

Here are some LA style Robusta in San Antonio that survived the 2021 freeze.

 

 

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There’s better examples downtown by far. I photographed some downtown next to a building that are taller and thinner than these. 

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1 hour ago, Teegurr said:

Here are some LA style Robusta in San Antonio that survived the 2021 freeze.

Some of those don't look quite right either...

There are much taller palms in the Houston Area but mass commercial plantings are where you'll see the greatest number of uniform ultra-thin robusta (same as the robusta in Deep South Texas, most of Florida, California skydusters, etc). These are all alive, I just picked the shots with the best lighting. Notice how the trunks all seem to be twisting/dancing even on these young(er) palms...filifera is straight as an arrow and very columnar looking 

robustaa59.thumb.JPG.05eb437160d450338971d6e2fb0864e9.JPGrobustaaaa.thumb.JPG.d87c0e1d29804833a4ad6c41091c2336.JPGrobustaa.thumb.JPG.78d92008c21d9266889e531f69ac4eae.JPG728080883_railthinrobusta.thumb.JPG.faa698980e7412afa9d5cc829eadfb55.JPG

 

Edited by Xenon

Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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17 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Some of those don't look quite right either...

They’re not the best examples. I’ve seen much better. Look through the palmageddon thread and you will see pure Robusta I posted every bit as impressive as Houston ones. Houston has more of them but the truly tall and thin ones exist in SA. I’ve personally seen them. 

Edited by NBTX11
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3 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

They’re not the best examples. I’ve seen much better. Look through the palmageddon thread and you will see pure Robusta I posted every bit as impressive as Houston ones. 

Yes, I remember the tall ones near the builings. Do you know how many survived out in the open in San Antonio or slightly south of there? Driving SW from Houston on 59/77, I didn't see any telephone pole robusta until the inland suburbs of Corpus Christi . 

Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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On 12/24/2022 at 7:29 PM, Xerarch said:

Yes that map stopped working a while back, I don't know why, wish they would bring it back

I think this might be it: https://www.fs.usda.gov/wildflowers/Native_Plant_Materials/Native_Gardening/hardinesszones.shtml.

Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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21 hours ago, GregVirginia7 said:

Will do…as I said earlier, the segments never closed as tightly as they did this round…it has fascinated me for years. Honestly, it has never lost a segment/frond to cold all these going on 9 years. It has always reacted to cold by closing the segments but this time it resembled more the pictures of a fried Trachy and it had me worried but they are opening up…we’ll see how it looks in a few days…going to really warm up here but get wet this weekend so will copper fungicide the crowns of everything, especially the Chamaerops…will be in touch with an update.

I discern no damage on my Trachy F. or the Brazoria…both unprotected in back to back nights 8-10 F. with following 2 days sub freezing…relying on memory here…very happy with the way the Trachy segments have opened back up as we hit the 50’s today. Brazoria segments didn’t close at all but are much thicker than the Trachy segments.

The Brazoria is my biggest surprise given its harsh start 8 going on 9 years ago…fried fronds, spear pull…and this was protected with cover and lights…but it’s 8th year really saw massive growth, I think 4 new massive fronds, maybe 5…just went crazy with growth compared to previous years…

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This Brazoria frond was on its way out this summer and will be off soon but you can see how all damage was confined to the retiring frond…

The Trachy is the same…nothing showing except to some of the oldest yellowing fronds from this summer…when the palm is getting rid of them, no point in moving sugars in or out…

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Everything at the top most exposed are open for business today…great to see after what single digits did to fold up the segments but it’s all defensive…this Trachy has good cold hardy genes…haven’t pulled on the spear but I’m sure it’s fine…bottom 50% is messy and still suffering from the damn squirrel that chewed the petioles on their undersides where the petioles arch to meet the trunk, just enough to weaken their ability to support completely their weight…but nothing to do with the cold. I’d make a pot pie out of that varmint if I could single it out!

Anyway…hope results are good for everyone…I know @Allen and other TN friends suffer far greater sinking cold at a latitude lower than mine but if anyone is prepared, it’s @Allen for sure!

 

 

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22 hours ago, Allen said:

Good report and at 8-10F those Sabal/needles should be pretty much undamaged.  I would expect though some spotting or streaking on the Trachy fronds though at that temp.  Let us know if the Trachy fronds have spots or mild damage when it warms for a week.

Just responded to your request but to the wrong post, I think…anyway, can’t discern any damage to the Trachy F. fronds except for maybe a little bit on the older yellowing fronds from this past summer…upper 50% looks great, lower 50% messy for reasons other than cold. The Brazoria is impressive as well…segments never folded and note they are much thicker than the segments of the Trachy for sure… hope yours did well in your sinking cold region.

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3 hours ago, Xenon said:

Yes, I remember the tall ones near the builings. Do you know how many survived out in the open in San Antonio or slightly south of there? Driving SW from Houston on 59/77, I didn't see any telephone pole robusta until the inland suburbs of Corpus Christi . 

I live on the NE Side so I haven’t scouted out the south side much. I suspect there’s some there. But like you said, there are very few until you get into close proximity to Corpus Christi though. I saw some taller palms around Kenedy to Beeville but I don’t recall if they were completely Robusta, I was just driving through. 

Edited by NBTX11
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Sabal causiarum saw ~14 or so completely out in the open. Looks like it passed the sniffer test. I’d call them a solid 8b palm. 

7EACB615-08E9-4DB2-8CF3-1055ABDDE963.jpeg

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we bottomed out at 7f. It was forecasted to be 10f so i didnt wrap them. picture was taken 3pm today. too bad we still have 3 months to go of winter
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Edited by palm trees n brooklyn
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