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Polar Vortex 2022...... who's ready?


Sabal King

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15 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

It looks great.  It came through the Feb 2021 freeze fairly easily.  I'm not even expecting it to burn from this year's freeze.  I was slightly worried about my smaller Filifera, so I covered them with buckets. 

What people don't understand about South Texas is, we have had zero freezes up until yesterday, and next week it will back up to 75-77 degrees, around 25C, which is probably mid July weather in London.  And that's not abnormal, it's that warm or warmer every December and January for stretches.  

I can back that up, I’ve literally gone swimming at the river in January.  If I remember correctly the temperature was in the 80’s. 

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5 hours ago, DTS1 said:

i cant wait to see 56 degrees on the first day of january lol

I bet. Supposed to be a high of 61F here on New Years Day. Maybe I can let my Trachy get some afternoon sun and some fresh air.

12-24-2022

Edited by MrTropical
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Emerald Isle, North Carolina

USDA Zone 8B/9A - Humid Subtropical (CFA)

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It got down to 8F here. Pretty sure all of the palms will be toast after this winter. Upstate SC 

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Los Angeles, CA and Myrtle Beach, SC.

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Sitting at 13.5 here currently. Chilly one from sure. 
Seeing 16.7 at my house by the lake  

Edited by RJ
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9 minutes ago, amh said:

Currently about 14F and dropping with 3 hours before sunup. 

I’ll probably drop another half degree or more before sunrise. Cold shot definitely outperformed. 

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The Kentucky mesonet site climate page (http://www.kymesonet.org/) for yesterday has the following for me (all in f): max 12.1, min -6.8, ave temp 2.7, ave dew point -7.5, min wind chill -30.6, ave wind (mph) 15.8, max gust 40.6! Test for my minors and needles established 10+ years (not protected). My current temperature is 1.0 degrees f.

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I am surprised that southern California is always spared from these cold snaps.  A place like Los Angeles which is situated north of Dallas and Atlanta very rarely sees frost at all.

Without a mountain range to stop it this cold gets even deep into Texas and Florida. 

 

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3 hours ago, RJ said:

Sitting at 13.5 here currently. Chilly one from sure. 
Seeing 16.7 at my house by the lake  

This is an example for tomorrow morning of how water can moderate temps, especially when winds are low. Around the lake is showing 22 when just removed from the lake is showing 16. Last night the difference wasn’t nearly as extreme because of the winds. At the coldest point this morning I was only about 2 degrees colder then my new house near the lake. 

D38B605B-8B86-4273-B138-8B41312D0664.jpeg

1F50FD31-B4B5-4668-8451-C0B6DC24908C.jpeg

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2 hours ago, EJ NJ said:

Just woke up to 4F I'm literally done!

What is planted outside?

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  18' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia odorata (1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -6F, -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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Woke up to 23F (-5C) at my place this morning around 0700.  As far as I can tell, it did not drop below 20F (-6.7) here last night.  If overnight Thursday/Friday was the coldest from this winter storm (17F/-8.3C), then I basically just experienced a Hardiness Zone 8b event (which is the Hardiness Zone that I technically live in).  Most of what I have planted outside are supposedly rated for Hardiness Zone 8b (or lower); therefore, this should be a really good stress test moving forward when assessing any possible long-term damage.  This was also a dry cold event, so this will be a temperature-only based cold hardy assessment (i.e., unbiased by wet freeze conditions).  Compared to the Hardiness Zone 7b event that I experienced here in February 2021 (6F/-14.4C + snow), this was not all that bad.

20221224_080626.jpg

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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We’re back up to 44F here in Kingston, WA. Had 72 hours below freezing and a low of 17F at my place w/ 6” of snow accumulation. The only protection I put up was a partial cover and Xmas lights on the jubaea i planted this summer. All Trachys and Waggies got flattened by the snow and are now rising back up. 
 

How many out there plan on applying copper fungicide as it warms up?

 

Im hoping that keeping the jubaea mostly dry has increased the odds of survival. Seems like fungicide might be a good idea since the next few days look to be up into the 50s with lows above 40 and very wet. 

Edited by Moe Exotic
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22 minutes ago, Moe Exotic said:

We’re back up to 44F here in Kingston, WA. Had 72 hours below freezing and a low of 17F at my place w/ 6” of snow accumulation. The only protection I put up was a partial cover and Xmas lights on the jubaea i planted this summer. All Trachys and Waggies got flattened by the snow and are now rising back up. 
 

How many out there plan on applying copper fungicide as it warms up?

 

Im hoping that keeping the jubaea mostly dry has increased the odds of survival. Seems like fungicide might be a good idea since the next few days look to be up into the 50s with lows above 40 and very wet. 

You can put a round of fungicide in the crown.  I generally recommend it when temps hit 60's.  At 17F your trachy/waggie (If full size) shouldn't have tissue damage.

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YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  18' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia odorata (1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -6F, -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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1 hour ago, Allen said:

What is planted outside?

washingtonia Filifera livistona chinensis and sabal minor all protected under a tarp.

An Autistic 18 year old who has an obsession with Palms!

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Thanks for the reply Allen! I’m leaning towards giving the crowns a spray today. I don’t think we’ll see 60f for a while in my neck of the woods but 54f seems warm enough to make me a little cautious. I’m thinking the trachys/waggies should be fine. There are a lot of them around me and no one seems to protect them. The jubaea on the other hand I should probably do whatever I can after seeing the one on SSI kick the bucket and the 5 at UW arboretum take significant damage as long established trees. 
 

There is a house by the ferry dock with 2 medium sized butias that made it through last winter unprotected so I figure the jubaea has a decent chance. That house warms up quicker than me though being high bank water front. 

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20 minutes ago, EJ NJ said:

washingtonia Filifera livistona chinensis and sabal minor all protected under a tarp.

The minor should be ok

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  18' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia odorata (1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -6F, -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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I feel lucky. 

Predictions for College Station were about correct. We got down to 13F in my area with strong winds. This morning we had a low of 19 or so (local temperature meter). Temps stayed below freezing for over 32 hours already but the sun has been steadily warming up the soil. We should go above freezing this afternoon for the first time! We are slated for another long subzero dip tonight but then it should be over-ish. 

I almost regret cutting down my 'supermule'. At this point, I am not expecting to lose any palms. The medi I left out unprotected had, other than some discoloration yesterday, little sign of damage or stress. I also left a Sabal Uresana (high land variety) relatively unprotected (only covered the base with a bag of dry leaves) and it looks unfazed with its petioles still looking pristine. This shouldn't surprise anyone here given the ultimate low of 13f, however, the duration of subzero temps combined with the strong winds of the event are interesting factors did have me in a knot for a bit. Of course, we'll really know in a couple of months but I am optimistic. 

Next week, lows are predicted at 63 (w 74 highs). 🙃

Lets hope that's it for this winter. I was wondering, how long are you planning to leave the protections on? 

Edited by Swolte
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9 hours ago, Brad Mondel said:

It got down to 8F here. Pretty sure all of the palms will be toast after this winter. Upstate SC 

Hey Brad, I am down the road about fifty miles south of you in Greenwood, and we weren't too far off your low. If it makes you feel any better, the palms in my yard made it through a rare cold snap like this before where we had ice to boot. I have different types of Sabals, varieties of Trachycarpus, Butita Odoratas, needles, Chamaedorea radicalis, fatsia, cold hardy citrus, sagos, etc. 

The good thing about our location is the duration of the cold and how quickly it heats back up. We are forecasted for mid sixties next week.

I do have a neighbor with a Washingtonia, and I am curious as to how it fared. 

We have lots of Sabal palmettos in the area, and some of them are old, as well as some really old Butia odoratas, and they are still thriving. Greenville has some old palms too, so don't feet too much. Our summer heat give the Sabals an advantage to other locations that don't have hot summers (and springs).

 

 

Edited by Scot from SC
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7 hours ago, EJ NJ said:

Just woke up to 4F I'm literally done!

Don’t give now. You have a whole lifetime to obsess over palms.

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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Well i forgot to post this last night but I figured it was my best bet for protecting the yucca cane. Draped c9 lights over it then covered with a couple blankets. 

I'll be posting how everything fared once we start to warm up

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20221223_180345.jpg

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38 minutes ago, Scot from SC said:

Hey Brad, I am down the road about fifty miles south of you in Greenwood, and we weren't too far off your low. If it makes you feel any better, the palms in my yard made it through a rare cold snap like this before where we had ice to boot. I have different types of Sabals, varieties of Trachycarpus, Butita Odoratas, needles, Chamaedorea radicalis, fatsia, cold hardy citrus, sagos, etc. 

The good thing about our location is the duration of the cold and how quickly it heats back up. We are forecasted for mid sixties next week.

I do have a neighbor with a Washingtonia, and I am curious as to how it fared. 

We have lots of Sabal palmettos in the area, and some of them are old, as well as some really old Butia odoratas, and they are still thriving. Greenville has some old palms too, so don't feet too much. Our summer heat give the Sabals an advantage to other locations that don't have hot summers (and springs).

 

 

Thanks for the encouragement, I have spent a lot of time and money on my palms. I didn't have time to protect them because of work but I wish I did. 

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Los Angeles, CA and Myrtle Beach, SC.

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I'm finally above freezing! I bottomed out around 12F this morning and am currently 39ish. So far this has been a slightly colder 8A winter in my 8A yard.

Edited by amh
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From San Antonio to New Braunfels I don't see no visible damage on Washingtonia Filiferas , Sabals , Pindos ,no burns nothing. Even the Robustas seem to be fine.  The sunny dry weather above freezing during the day helps a lot.  My young queen that I wrapped in sheets with a bucket on it looks very good.  

20221224_125716.jpg

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We got to 12 here (Aiken SC) when I was expecting more like 14 ish.  I protected things that were most sensitive but a lot of stuff was left out unprotected.  We shall see what survives.  My two fairly large supermules, Washingtonia filibusta, date palm and a lot of citrus are probably most at risk. 

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1 minute ago, Turtlesteve said:

We got to 12 here (Aiken SC) when I was expecting more like 14 ish.  I protected things that were most sensitive but a lot of stuff was left out unprotected.  We shall see what survives.  My two fairly large supermules, Washingtonia filibusta, date palm and a lot of citrus are probably most at risk. 

I don't have experience with the mule palms, but the washingtonia should be okay if it has any trunk. I have a date palm that refuses to die, even after experiencing temperatures below zero, but there is no trunk and the palm has been absorbed by a loquat. The citrus could survive if they are protected by canopy or in a mild micro-climate, but my personal experience is that zone8 citrus is really a zone9.  Don't remove anything until summer, because a lot of plants will return with the heat.

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1 hour ago, Brad Mondel said:

Thanks for the encouragement, I have spent a lot of time and money on my palms. I didn't have time to protect them because of work but I wish I did. 

Don't despair. I didn't protect anything either. My palms have seen this once before when they were much younger, and we had frozen precipitation then too. They did fine overall. Now if I had queen palms and such I would be stressed, but I am an 8a like you with hot summers and really don't push that boundary much.

If I am not mistaken, last year parts of central and south Texas were a lot worse off than we are. I think Houston was around 48 hours of continuous freezing temperatures on top of freezing precipitation, and from what I have seen, many of the same types of palms that we share with them were fine. 

Edited by Scot from SC
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On 12/23/2022 at 9:56 AM, Chester B said:

Looks like you had the same protection methods as me.  At least you don't get the wind like we do down here.  I find that with normal winter weather it's generally much warmer here, but when we have one of these arctic incursions we get much colder.  All do to the Columbia river gorge giving that cold air an avenue to infiltrate my area.  It's even warmer up on Mt Hood, this morning it was 32F there compared to 21F at my place.

Yes, the gorge wind is crazy. Plus you seem to get more freezing rains. I just experienced the freezing rain with longer duration for the first time. It formed a sheet of ice with the thickness almost a quarter inch. It was crazy. 

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3 hours ago, Turtlesteve said:

We got to 12 here (Aiken SC) when I was expecting more like 14 ish.  I protected things that were most sensitive but a lot of stuff was left out unprotected.  We shall see what survives.  My two fairly large supermules, Washingtonia filibusta, date palm and a lot of citrus are probably most at risk. 

Based on what I saw in the Feb 21 freeze, most of those palms should come back fine.  May look ugly for a while, but should come back.  

Hybrid Washingtonias survived 9-10 degrees in San Antonio, with snow and ice in the Feb 21.  Almost all with medium to fat trunks survived fine.

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3 hours ago, MarcusH said:

From San Antonio to New Braunfels I don't see no visible damage on Washingtonia Filiferas , Sabals , Pindos ,no burns nothing. Even the Robustas seem to be fine.  The sunny dry weather above freezing during the day helps a lot.  My young queen that I wrapped in sheets with a bucket on it looks very good.  

20221224_125716.jpg

Damage doesn't show up right away most of the time (unless it's a Feb 21 type freeze).  You may see spotting and browning in the queen in 1-2 weeks as the weather warms.  Maybe not, if you had good protection, but you might.

Anything more hardy than a queen palm will survive this freeze easily.  Any Washingtonia with any degree of trunk will survive, even if unprotected.  Fronds will probably burn on the local Robusta, eventually, until they grow out of it in the spring/summer.    

There won't be any damage to local Filifera.  It didn't get cold enough.  

Edited by NBTX11
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9 hours ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

I basically just experienced a Hardiness Zone 8b event (which is the Hardiness Zone that I technically live in)

Not to nitpick, but those areas in San Antonio, which are an 8b (inside Loop 410 and the southside are statistically a 9a), are a high 8b.  Meaning, they average between 19-20 degrees for a 30 year average, but show up as an 8b on charts.  So, if you got down to 17, then you actually got below normal ever so slightly, unless you live north/outside of Loop 1604.

Yeah I am very technical.  And yeah I zoomed in on maps down to the street level to see what zones areas are in.  

Edited by NBTX11
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1 hour ago, NBTX11 said:

unless you live north/outside of Loop 1604.


Yes I do.

1 hour ago, NBTX11 said:

I zoomed in on maps down to the street level to see what zones areas are in.

Same hear.  I know exactly what zone I am in, it is 8b by the latest USDA map.

Not to nitpick or anything...

Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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9 minutes ago, GoatLockerGuns said:


Yes I do.

Same hear.  I know exactly what zone I am in, it is 8b by the latest USDA map.

Not to nitpick or anything...

Wasn't a criticism buddy.  I know what zone every area around here is.  My greater point was that those areas in San Antonio that are 8b, such as north of Loop 410 are high 8b's that generally range from 18 or 19-20 degrees on average.   They used to have a map where you could zoom down to street level and it would tell you exactly what you're 30 year average was, down to the degree, for example 19.6 degrees, etc.  It was a really neat tool.  I can't find that map now, but it existed. 

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4 hours ago, amh said:

I don't have experience with the mule palms, but the washingtonia should be okay if it has any trunk. I have a date palm that refuses to die, even after experiencing temperatures below zero, but there is no trunk and the palm has been absorbed by a loquat. The citrus could survive if they are protected by canopy or in a mild micro-climate, but my personal experience is that zone8 citrus is really a zone9.  Don't remove anything until summer, because a lot of plants will return with the heat.

Unfortunately the Washingtonia isn’t trunking yet so it’s pretty iffy.  And my yard has no real cover to speak of, on top of being at a low spot on the street where the cold air likes to settle.  The positive on the citrus is most of them are on their own roots so many will likely come back even if they die to the ground.  I’m more hopeful on the mules but we shall see.

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3 minutes ago, Turtlesteve said:

Unfortunately the Washingtonia isn’t trunking yet so it’s pretty iffy.  And my yard has no real cover to speak of, on top of being at a low spot on the street where the cold air likes to settle.  The positive on the citrus is most of them are on their own roots so many will likely come back even if they die to the ground.  I’m more hopeful on the mules but we shall see.

https://www.plantmaps.com/usda_hardiness_zone_map.php
 

Lol you snuck in on my reply to NBTX11  😎

Edited by RJ
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11 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Wasn't a criticism buddy.  I know what zone every area around here is.  My greater point was that those areas in San Antonio that are 8b, such as north of Loop 410 are high 8b's that generally range from 18 or 19-20 degrees on average.   They used to have a map where you could zoom down to street level and it would tell you exactly what you're 30 year average was, down to the degree, for example 19.6 degrees, etc.  It was a really neat tool.  I can't find that map now, but it existed. 

https://www.plantmaps.com/usda_hardiness_zone_map.php

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2 minutes ago, RJ said:

I don't think that's it.  The map I am referring to had all of the data USDA used to make their maps down to the street level.  I would show you exactly down to the 1/10th of a degree what your 30 year average was.  For example, maybe your 30 year average was 19.2 degrees.  

I can't find that map right now.  

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