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Polar Vortex 2022...... who's ready?


Sabal King

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@Axel Amsterdam 

I think Southwest Zeeland around Vlissingen has the best palm growing climate in the Netherlands. Looked at the weather data and it is basically 9a territory now. Do they have much of a exotic gardening scene?

Weirdly I noticed growing Trachys & Chams is more popular above the rivers than below the rivers (carnival country). 😁

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2 minutes ago, Zeni said:

@Axel Amsterdam 

I think Southwest Zeeland around Vlissingen has the best palm growing climate in the Netherlands. Looked at the weather data and it is basically 9a territory now. Do they have much of a exotic gardening scene?

Weirdly I noticed growing Trachys & Chams is more popular above the rivers than below the rivers (carnival country). 😁

Yes well Vlissingen has some large agaves, and i know some unprotected CIDP’s, butia, washingtonia, sabal minor, jubaea, large echiums etc. Not a big scene though but that’s the best spot in Holland imo. 

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But i admire people that keep trying, today i noticed these washingtonias in a cold windswept spot 15 km from the center of Amsterdam. You can see the blue tarp around the small trunks. 

57D3C75B-4B06-4542-8771-F595869FE701.jpeg

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28 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

Yes very unique climate around there. Don't know how cold hardy it is though. But S. causiarum is also very hardy considering it being from the Antilles.

I’m growing it and my small plants just survived mid to low teens with minimal damage. It’s a solid 8b palm. 

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@RJI think sabals do better in cooler conditions than once thought but Bermuda can definitely get hot. Technically it's a native palm to Britain obviously not here though but it's native to our overseas territory. If only they imported seedlings from there to here though. I wonder if Bermuda and other overseas territories are exempt from the usual rules of importing plants to here.

Screenshot_20230205-204259524 (1).jpg

Edited by Foxpalms
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4 minutes ago, RJ said:

I’m growing it and my small plants just survived mid to low teens with minimal damage. It’s a solid 8b palm. 

That's great to hear because I'm growing them from seed at the moment. They are fast seedlings for a Sabal. Currently indoors they are as fast as P. dactylifera seedlings.

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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23 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

But i admire people that keep trying, today i noticed these washingtonias in a cold windswept spot 15 km from the center of Amsterdam. You can see the blue tarp around the small trunks. 

57D3C75B-4B06-4542-8771-F595869FE701.jpeg

Garden centers and retailers typically sell cheap young Canaries, Robustas, Chamaeropses, and Trachys early in each growing season. I noticed the Aldi has good deals on them in May every year. That causes newbies to plant it out.

Sadly Robusta leaning Filibustas or pure Robustas instead of the much hardier true intermediate Filibusta.

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6 minutes ago, Zeni said:

Garden centers and retailers typically sell cheap young Canaries, Robustas, Chamaeropses, and Trachys early in each growing season. I noticed the Aldi has good deals on them in May every year. That causes newbies to plant it out.

Sadly Robusta leaning Filibustas or pure Robustas instead of the much hardier true intermediate Filibusta.

Never seen Washingtonia in an Aldi only phoenix canariensis and the most common chamedorea elegans. I very rarely shop there so maybe they have sold Washingtonias.

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Sabals growing in a cool summer climate on the Scilly isles. 2and photo is Sabal bermudana. Not sure what the one in the last photo is but I was told it's a sabal.

Screenshot_20230205-210016930 (1).jpg

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Screenshot_20230205-210447032 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230205-210504128 (1).jpg

Edited by Foxpalms
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@Foxpalms I saw a Sabal Minor growing in near complete shade on Tresco as well. Some will say dappled shade, but I could imagine in winter when the sun is lower it gets next to zero direct sunshine there.

664D63C9-5598-410B-B884-21F0B7BB7416.thumb.jpeg.a4130c371001ed940bc1073ad84b0b9d.jpeg

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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7 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Never seen Washingtonia in an Aldi only phoenix canariensis and the most common chamedorea elegans. I very rarely shop there so maybe they have sold Washingtonias.

Since about ~2018 they sell it here every year. Surprisingly the Lidl also sells cheap decently sized Cocos Nuciferas and Archontophoenix alexandrae once a year. 

Maybe @Hortulanus work for their horticulture sales department. (J/k). 😄

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2 minutes ago, Zeni said:

Since about ~2018 they sell it here every year. Surprisingly the Lidl also sells cheap decently sized Cocos Nuciferas and Archontophoenix alexandrae once a year. 

Maybe @Hortulanus work for their horticulture sales department. (J/k). 😄

I doubt they would sell archontophoenix Alexandrae in the UK stores but I would love to be proven wrong. Dutch greenhouse coconuts are sold everywhere here so they probably do sell those. I can't even imagine how many Dutch greenhouse coconuts must have died over the years millions! 

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10 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

@Foxpalms I saw a Sabal Minor growing in near complete shade on Tresco as well. Some will say dappled shade, but I could imagine in winter when the sun is lower it gets next to zero direct sunshine there.

664D63C9-5598-410B-B884-21F0B7BB7416.thumb.jpeg.a4130c371001ed940bc1073ad84b0b9d.jpeg

I wonder how many fronds per year it grows, given its in a bad location. Really they should have planted the sabals in the sunnier part of the garden.

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12 minutes ago, Zeni said:

Since about ~2018 they sell it here every year. Surprisingly the Lidl also sells cheap decently sized Cocos Nuciferas and Archontophoenix alexandrae once a year. 

Maybe @Hortulanus work for their horticulture sales department. (J/k). 😄

😂 I don't think I've ever seen P. canariensis in an ALDI here, but I usually don't go there anyway. They have always been for sale in the big general stores every spring. Very cheap. 30€ for a plant that would cost you 70-100€ anywhere else. But ALDI in the UK for example seems to be nicer than in Germany. I think they had to convince people more to buy there in other countries, while here they were a well known old family company. I should look at ALDI, LIDL and all those other stores of this type for some bargains this spring. I once bought a Washingtonia from a such a store back in 2009? I only bought it to let it recover because it looked so bad, but it died not long after I got it.

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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4 hours ago, Banana Belt said:

I believe the following observations are true and correct me where wrong. 

1) Water is a great absorbent of solar energy, unless frozen over and covered with snow.  Open water like a lake, bay, estuary, ocean or small pond absorbs the solar energy proportional to size.

2) Water also has high storativity of the solar energy and through convection can distribute this energy from one place to another, like the Gulf Stream in the North Atlantic.

3) Because water is composed of Hydrogen and Oxygen, the hydrogen makes water a good radiation shield for high energy electromagnetic waves or particles.  When the high energy  radiation hits hydrogen it produces heat energy in the water. 

4) In addition to open water, water saturated soils also absorb solar energy greatly and warm up.  Observation of this is when a plowed field is dry the soil will warm up to some degree but will warm up many times faster and more when rained on or irrigated and wet. 

5) Rain warms up the atmosphere and ground when it precipitates and falls.  If a location gets night-time rain and day-time sun, this greatly increases the micro-climate zone, as the night time rain and clouds protect loss of energy to space and the day time sun warms up the wet ground. 

6) High humidity air stores more energy than dry air, and transmission of energy through humid air is much slower than through dry air.  It is the water in the air that makes this so.

The above are just a few ways in my opinion that micro-climates whether hundreds of square kilometers or small back yards are adjusted for climate.

Here you definitely notice how much faster it heats up when the air is dry during summer heatwaves and is less than 20% humidity. Water also has the highest thermal mass, so backyard ponds are a great way to create a milder microclimate during cold nights. It can also cool the area down slightly on hot days

Edited by Foxpalms
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12 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

😂 I don't think I've ever seen P. canariensis in an ALDI here, but I usually don't go there anyway. They have always been for sale in the big general stores every spring. Very cheap. 30€ for a plant that would cost you 70-100€ anywhere else. But ALDI in the UK for example seems to be nicer than in Germany. I think they had to convince people more to buy there in other countries, while here they were a well known old family company. I should look at ALDI, LIDL and all those other stores of this type for some bargains this spring. I once bought a Washingtonia from a such a store back in 2009? I only bought it to let it recover because it looked so bad, but it died not long after I got it.

Here in the UK you can get small pinate non strap leaf Phoenix canariensis sometimes for around £8/€9 from those types of stores. Probably part of the reason phoenix canariensis is everywhere in London now and the second most popular palm behind chamaerops humilis.

Edited by Foxpalms
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46 minutes ago, Zeni said:

Garden centers and retailers typically sell cheap young Canaries, Robustas, Chamaeropses, and Trachys early in each growing season. I noticed the Aldi has good deals on them in May every year. That causes newbies to plant it out.

Sadly Robusta leaning Filibustas or pure Robustas instead of the much hardier true intermediate Filibusta.

Yes in general I've also seen experiments that looked unintentional. People buy palms have no idea what it is and plant it out. If they see a label on P. canariensis and it says -8°C they think "ok should be fine". My uncle's ex wife just told me she as a palm in her garden, I haven't seen a picture yet but to her it's just a palm. She said that it has taken damage lately she couldn't even tell for sure if this winter or the winter before. Either way I really think it's not just a Trachy.

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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2 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Here in the UK you can get small pinate non strap leaf Phoenix canariensis sometimes for around £8/€9 in those types of stores.

Yes but I'm talking about those with a small forming "trunk" like 10-15cm. Sometimes they look greenhouse grown but most of the times they come from Italy. Smaller Phoenix are also available everywhere for even cheaper prices. In building supplies stores you can get them all the time but imo pretty expensive. But since palms become trendy they are also getting more expensive in general so idk. I haven't looked for P. canariensis for a long time. I have several seed grown ones in all kinds of different sizes. I even got one from my aunt she has grown in 2002 from a seed from Gran Canaria.

Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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4 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

Yes in general I've also seen experiments that looked unintentional. People buy palms have no idea what it is and plant it out. If they see a label on P. canariensis and it says -8°C they think "ok should be fine". My uncle's ex wife just told me she as a palm in her garden, I haven't seen a picture yet but to her it's just a palm. She said that it has taken damage lately she couldn't even tell for sure if this winter or the winter before. Either way I really think it's not just a Trachy.

Yes that's probably what happened with the Norfolk Island pines and bougainvillea in London. Since obviously other than maybe rare hardy varieties of bougainvillea the ones typically sold are labelled as indoor only since in most of the UK they can only grow indoors.

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8 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

Yes but I'm talking about those with a small forming "trunk" like 10-15cm. Sometimes they look greenhouse grown but most of the times they come from Italy. Smaller Phoenix are also available everywhere for even cheaper prices. In building supplies stores you can get them all the time but imo pretty expensive. But since palms become trendy they are also getting more expensive in general so idk. I haven't looked for P. canariensis for a long time. I have several seed grown ones in all kinds of different sizes. I even got one from my aunt she has grown in 2002 from a seed from Gran Canaria.

Yes in the UK those ones with a 10cm trunk forming occasionally are £8 from those types of stores and around £15-18 in garden centers. The size after that is usually around £25-30 in those stores. I wish dactylifera was imported by those types of stores because then it would be everywhere. Yucca gigantea is another one that gets commonly sold in recent years that is why that's everywhere in London as well.

Edited by Foxpalms
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13 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Yes that's probably what happened with the Norfolk Island pines and bougainvillea in London. Since obviously other than maybe rare hardy varieties of bougainvillea the ones typically sold are labelled as indoor only since in most of the UK they can only grow indoors.

That's an issue in general. Even with cold hardy species. There are many plants sold as indoor when indeed they could be grown outside in many places.

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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9 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Yes in the UK those ones with a 10cm trunk forming occasionally are £8 from those types of stores and around £15-18 in garden centers. The size after that is usually around £25-30 in those stores. I wish dactylifera was imported by those types of stores because then it would be everywhere. Yucca gigantea is another one that gets commonly sold in recent years that is why that's everywhere in London as well.

I only even heard about Yucca gigantea recently. But I'm not really into Yuccas. They remind me of the 1960-1980s gardening trends here. You still see old Yuccas in every other front garden. They're not ugly but I just can't see them anymore. Yet Yucca gigantea is quite interesting. I feel like P. dactylifera is rare in stores in general. Usually only sold by exotic plant shops.

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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1 hour ago, Foxpalms said:

It can also cool the area down slightly on hot days

Water slows down the radiant energy when the air is humid and keeps the garden warmer at night.  If the air is dry or low humidity radiant heat "Infrared" can easily transfer energy upwards and into space during nights.  That is why deserts cool off fast at night, whereas warm tropical high humidity air will stay warm all night even though both receive the same solar energy during the day.

When water evaporates on a lawn at night it cools off the grass blades and thus frost appears.  But that same water in the form of vapor then warms the air up in the garden or orchard, which is why many Orchard people will run sprinklers during frosty nights.

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For now i will call them yucca elephantipes because that’s the IKEA plant most people try outside and they became huge in mild areas in central London and parts of the outskirts. That plant to me is a reliable indicator for a mild area, slightly more so than CIDP or washingtonia. What i mean is that you can see CIDP’s in the outskirts of London where large elephantipes are absent. I am ofcourse talking about large elephantipes without any crown/leafdamage. Amsterdam only went down to -4,5 in an otherwise frosty week so elephantipes, also jewel, look like this

B24A765B-0FA7-453F-8EC5-ACD709299C4C.jpeg

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E9C8E324-A61C-4E8C-BBA9-1E923D11EE6C.jpeg

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Polar Vortex 2022 2023...... who's ready?

Not me. We had some Artic air last week (23°F / -5°C) on one night. Ready for spring.

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5 minutes ago, Banana Belt said:

Water slows down the radiant energy when the air is humid and keeps the garden warmer at night.  If the air is dry or low humidity radiant heat "Infrared" can easily transfer energy upwards and into space during nights.  That is why deserts cool off fast at night, whereas warm tropical high humidity air will stay warm all night even though both receive the same solar energy during the day.

When water evaporates on a lawn at night it cools off the grass blades and thus frost appears.  But that same water in the form of vapor then warms the air up in the garden or orchard, which is why many Orchard people will run sprinklers during frosty nights.

Some costal deserts areas such as Sharm el sheik and Hurghada have really warm days due to low humidity and warm nights with moderate humidity, at least higher humidity than places such as phoenix Arizona. Some of the costal areas in the Persian gulf also experiences low humidity during the day and high humidity at night which causes very hot nights. The urban heat island effect in Dubai and Abu Dhabi makes this even worse, so in Abu Dhabi during the average summer the high is 107 and the low is 91.6.

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18 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

For now i will call them yucca elephantipes because that’s the IKEA plant most people try outside and they became huge in mild areas in central London and parts of the outskirts. That plant to me is a reliable indicator for a mild area, slightly more so than CIDP or washingtonia. What i mean is that you can see CIDP’s in the outskirts of London where large elephantipes are absent. I am ofcourse talking about large elephantipes without any crown/leafdamage. Amsterdam only went down to -4,5 in an otherwise frosty week so elephantipes, also jewel, look like this

B24A765B-0FA7-453F-8EC5-ACD709299C4C.jpeg

55DC5B64-F990-46BC-931E-45E928BE6BB6.jpeg

85040BBC-2738-4D97-880A-19B958354E8D.jpeg

E9C8E324-A61C-4E8C-BBA9-1E923D11EE6C.jpeg

I agree with using it as an indicator. None anywhere in central London are damaged whilst in the outskirts you seem them but they have some damage and obviously the less Urban the area the more damage you see. Cordyline australis I have never seen badly damaged in even the coldest parts of London. IKEA also sells dracaena marginata so maybe we will see some of them planted in the higher 9b and 10a parts of London in the future.

Edited by Foxpalms
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26 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Some costal deserts

You are right.  Please ignore the garbage I posted above about this, I was being pestered by someone in my house when writing it and I got it all wrong, mistakes happen.

I was thinking about what I had written when doing the chore being demanded and realized how stupid and wrong I was.  Reality about energy being released and absorbed is when water vapor like clouds condense into water or snow, energy is released during the change in state of the matter where latent energy (heat) in the vapor is released into the atmosphere when it rains or snows.  The water is going from a higher energy state to a lower state, gas to solid or liquid, and energy is released into the air.  The opposite happens when water evaporates or sublimates into gas or vapor, the water or ice absorbs energy from the air or surface like a persons skin during sweating and cools the air or skin down.  Evaporation is cooling to the environment and condensing is warming.   I think the above is correct.

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1 hour ago, Banana Belt said:

Water slows down the radiant energy when the air is humid and keeps the garden warmer at night.  If the air is dry or low humidity radiant heat "Infrared" can easily transfer energy upwards and into space during nights.  That is why deserts cool off fast at night, whereas warm tropical high humidity air will stay warm all night even though both receive the same solar energy during the day.

When water evaporates on a lawn at night it cools off the grass blades and thus frost appears.  But that same water in the form of vapor then warms the air up in the garden or orchard, which is why many Orchard people will run sprinklers during frosty nights.

How stupid am I?  Just human of course.  Good part of what I said above is gibberish and wrong.  Below on later post is the correct understanding.  

When being interrupted and pestered while doing some, mistakes happen.  Best to stay focused and think things through before acting.

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5 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

Yes very unique climate around there. Don't know how cold hardy it is though. But S. causiarum is also very hardy considering it being from the Antilles.

Double post , sorry 

Edited by RJ
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5 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

@RJI think sabals do better in cooler conditions than once thought but Bermuda can definitely get hot. Technically it's a native palm to Britain obviously not here though but it's native to our overseas territory. If only they imported seedlings from there to here though. I wonder if Bermuda and other overseas territories are exempt from the usual rules of importing plants to here.

Screenshot_20230205-204259524 (1).jpg

They certainly can do okay is cooler temps. They just don’t thrive like they do in the SE US. Those temps don’t look very hot to me, the winter is definitely warmer then my general climate, but the summer is definitely cooler. 
 

BEC4582F-26A8-46C3-B979-4684F9C749F5.thumb.jpeg.951046c7ce445dfac73fc464872a829e.jpeg

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16 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Sabal Bermudana in coastal Brittany, this is exceptional because like the queen it seems to prefer heat, but Brittany suits them.

03D45C11-0D3F-49DC-9CBA-4ECA034CF60A.jpeg

And to keep this thread interesting for various people in different climates and to complete the picture of the (somewhat) heat loving species, this butyagrus in the same garden in Brittany. Even the French are amazed what can grow in this garden next to the Atlantic. 

923B1755-B281-4757-8656-886CD06CD87F.jpeg

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28 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Anyone know what this plant is in the tresco abbey gardens.

Screenshot_20230206-200800557 (1).jpg

I would bet for Jubaeopsis caffra. If so..... a bomb!

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17 minutes ago, gurugu said:

I would bet for Jubaeopsis caffra. If so..... a bomb!

I have Jubaeopsis caffra that I intend to plant but it's still small at the moment. They did say they had a good amount of plants from South Africa but I never asked what this was, it only seemed interesting after looking through the photos of it.

Edited by Foxpalms
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On 1/21/2023 at 9:57 AM, Allen said:

I looked back at our posts and you said you had temps of 8F-10F for the low.   This is really helpful info for me to have as I am always trying to find the exact limits of Trachycarpus fortunei fronds/trunks, etc.   And it seems the study that has them start damage at 12F and fronds take 50% damage at 8F is pretty darn close as you seem to have fallen in that range.   Last year mine had lows of 12F and the fronds started having tiny cold spotting damage.  I think 95% your Trachy palms that size will be fine but I would spray copper in them once per month if you have any doubts or don't see the spear moving well or it has any 'loose' feel to it.  I think the lack of freezing rain really helped us on this.

Noticed yesterday the pin whole damage you mentioned to the upper level fronds of the big Trachy…do the damaged spots grow or remain small? It’s hard to even see them but I checked it out when the sun was hitting at the right angle…otherwise, no larger scale segment burn except on the newer fronds that were emerging at the time…it has really grown since then…weather has been very warm here. How have yours been doing? 

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2 hours ago, GregVirginia7 said:

Noticed yesterday the pin whole damage you mentioned to the upper level fronds of the big Trachy…do the damaged spots grow or remain small? It’s hard to even see them but I checked it out when the sun was hitting at the right angle…otherwise, no larger scale segment burn except on the newer fronds that were emerging at the time…it has really grown since then…weather has been very warm here. How have yours been doing? 

They won't go away and will grow a tiny amount over time.  This type damage usually occurs at 10-12F.  Mine have not grown much and 2 of 3 biggest Trachy I have are down to a handful of fronds.  A video is on my Youtube about the uncovering of them.

Edited by Allen

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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32 minutes ago, Allen said:

They won't go away and will grow a tiny amount over time.  This type damage usually occurs at 10-12F.  Mine have not grown much and 2 of 3 biggest Trachy I have are down to a handful of fronds.  A video is on my Youtube about the uncovering of them.

Have to get replacement fronds cranking this spring/summer. Loosened up the dirt all around the Trachy and Brazoria real good yesterday and threw in a very small amount of PalmGain over the surface…will give it a spring dose of fertilizer mid March and mulch over that…I’ll also pay more attention to regular watering this growing season…it grows like a weed even without all that but want to concentrate on more robust health.

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On 12/27/2022 at 5:02 PM, amh said:

So, whats the status of the neighbors foxtail palms?

Hah...just saw this.  TFP....straight up.  To a crisp.  He still has not removed the trunk husks after two months (as if they had any chance if recovering after a low of 17F).  He had no business planting them here in the first place IMHO.  He planted 4 with over 3 feet of trunk.  Probably not cheap around here.  They were centerpiece plantings too.  The trunks remain as monuments to his epic landscaping failure.

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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