Polar Vortex 2022...... who's ready?

[Xenon]

34 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Are south padre islands winter averages significantly warmer than Galveston's? Maybe cunninghamiana likes a cool period, the ones in California seem to do better than the ones in Florida and Texas even though it's drier and less humid.

The difference is a January mean temp of 13C vs 17C. I would guess the combination of sun + low rainfall + alkaline irrigation gets them eventually. The tropical ones seem much more forgiving of full sun and are more vigorous in general. 

Galveston/Houston gets much more rainfall (more than 2x) in general and is cooler in winter. Aside from natives, much of the landscape here is dominated by plants from China and Japan. Most of these East Asian "subtropicals" don't survive/do well in extreme southern Texas (A similar thing happens in FL somewhere around/north of Orlando), I think it's just too hot for too long with not enough of a cool season. 

[Arecaceus]

20 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Yes correct, its more eternal autumn. I dont think they ever see frost though, but i am not  completely sure.

I only can remember that they had some deep freezes in the past but from what they are growing this must be a rare event. I can't remeber where I read this because it's a long time ago.

[Foxpalms]

1 hour ago, Marco67 said:

I am not huge fan of queen palms to be honest and the queen palms I see on the photo's with only a couple of leaves don't look pretty in view. 

Better to plant something that is better suited for your climate. For my climate Trachycarpus and Chamaerops look fine so I will stick
to that.  Also no stress during colder winters either. 

I almost sense that it has become a match to plant palms that can barely survive to show how mild your climate is. I think
if you like gardening you want to have a nice looking garden with healthy plants not plants which have to cling on to life in order
to proof something. 

 

Personally I think yes it's better to plant things that do well in you're climate. Which for here would be Washingtonia, phoenix, butias, parajubaea also do well in the UK but are rare because of availability, sabals they do well in the south just hard to find for sale ect. It is also good to experiment though and you're attitude towards growing things is very similar to most people in the UK which is why I want to try and experiment with lots of palms never tried here, since if no one tried them how will we know if they can grow. The ones tried in the UK have been grown in less than ideal spots, people trying Bismarckia up at 53n inland with no urban heat island ect. I don't expect Bismarckia and Chambeyronia oliviformis to be thriving like they would in the tropics but it's worth a try. As I said from my personal experience queen's are easy in central London but I can't speak for people in other locations, other than they need to be tried in more mild parts of the UK. I also personally prefer the look to things such as archontophoenix, howea forsteriana, Rhopalostylis sapida and chamedoreas to Trachycarpus and Chamaerops. All of which are never a stress. I do agree though if someone is growing palms just to say they grow them rather than as an experiment and they know they do terribly in their area and they constantly look terrible and have to worry about them all winter, thats just stupid. In central London im sure there will be some people that will say monstera and howea don't grow here, most of which don't even live here, however all you need to do is walk around and see very healthy looking specimens never protected outside all year round.  I think most UK gardeners only stick to what's known to be extremely hardy and even palms that are being proven as hardy in their area they don't bother trying, another reason I'm more likely to visit gardens that experiment with palms such as the tresco abbey gardens, tremenheere, lamorran and abbotsbury when so many more in good locations in cornwall could grown them. Im also more drawn towards planting plants that are actually tropical plants whilst a good amount of UK tropical gardens instead just go with a tropical garden design (densely planting hardy non tropical plants) with a few of the same regular old palms and exotics. Personally I do like collecting lots of different palms but that has nothing to do with trying then outside since I have lots of tropicals that wouldn't stand a chance outside.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Foxpalms

[Marco67]

26 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

I don't how much you've read of the past couple of sites in this thread but your mentality (partially) is exactly what I've critisised about European palm growing culture. I say partially because I'm with you when it comes to planting stuff that is barely surviving and also showing off. I'm not sure about everbody's intentions but I think experimenting is definitely not wrong. I've tried several species (also other than palms) that when I would have listened to others I wouldn't have tried. And I had my succsesses several times. As the climate is also changeing in a really rapid pace now in Europe it's also a different game when it comes to (re-)experimenting. Trachys and Chamaerops are fine but as I've discussed with @guruguthere is so much potential in Europe that hasn't been used. Not even Butias are widely planted in areas where they have long term potential. And if people plant Trachys they all stick to fortunei while there is so much variety available here Americans wish to have access to...

I have nothing against experimenting but for example if you believe that a Santa Catarina is going to survive in Dusseldorf I think you have lost touch with reality a bit 😀

In the climates of continental northern Europe the only things you can really plant which would survive long term are Trachycarpus and Chamaerops. Even Chamaerops
might die during very cold winters. Butia and Jubaea won't make it here unprotected. People have tried that already. 

The next step on the climate ladder where you can plant things like Canariensis or Washingtonia are probably sheltered spots in Brittany. 

[Zeni]

12 minutes ago, Marco67 said:

I have nothing against experimenting but for example if you believe that a Santa Catarina is going to survive in Dusseldorf I think you have lost touch with reality a bit 😀

Lol, don't confirm the Dutch bluntness stereotype. 🤭 🤫

[Foxpalms]

5 minutes ago, Marco67 said:

I have nothing against experimenting but for example if you believe that a Santa Catarina is going to survive in Dusseldorf I think you have lost touch with reality a bit 😀

In the climates of continental northern Europe the only things you can really plant which would survive long term are Trachycarpus and Chamaerops. Even Chamaerops
might die during very cold winters. Butia and Jubaea won't make it here unprotected. People have tried that already. 

The next step on the climate ladder where you can plant things like Canariensis or Washingtonia are probably sheltered spots in Brittany. 

If protected during cold winters it could be possible. Here in the UK our climate is kind of an exception to the rest of north west Europe being an island and having so many different microclimates not too far from each other gives us more options.

[Axel Amsterdam]

36 minutes ago, Marco67 said:

I have nothing against experimenting but for example if you believe that a Santa Catarina is going to survive in Dusseldorf I think you have lost touch with reality a bit 😀

In the climates of continental northern Europe the only things you can really plant which would survive long term are Trachycarpus and Chamaerops. Even Chamaerops
might die during very cold winters. Butia and Jubaea won't make it here unprotected. People have tried that already. 

The next step on the climate ladder where you can plant things like Canariensis or Washingtonia are probably sheltered spots in Brittany. 

Marco, this is too broad a generalisation. 

Perhaps Hortulanus can first tell is if he means unprotected growth in Dusseldorf or protected (with a construction/heat etc). How is your filifera protected e.g?

If you talk about butia (eriospatha) and CIDP than coastal Holland has a couple of successtories with very minimal to no protection. Kristof has a large unprotected butia in Belgium. I think you also know about the jubaea surviving year after year in Belgium (small trunk) and ofcourse 2 very large trunking specimens in Amsterdam zoo. So there are successtories but i agree there are only a few. I have seen many failures, including my own, although this winter so far, washingtonias look allright. They are not long term though just like in most of the UK.

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Arecaceus]

2 minutes ago, Marco67 said:

I have nothing against experimenting but for example if you believe that a Santa Catarina is going to survive in Dusseldorf I think you have lost touch with reality a bit 😀

In the climates of continental northern Europe the only things you can really plant which would survive long term are Trachycarpus and Chamaerops. Even Chamaerops
might die during very cold winters. Butia and Jubaea won't make it here unprotected. People have tried that already. 

The next step on the climate ladder where you can plant things like Canariensis or Washingtonia are probably sheltered spots in Brittany. 

I'm planing to protect the Syagrus when it gets too cold in winter. Chamaerops have never died on me. Butias and Jubaeas have been planted here for a long time even before the 2009/2010 events. "climates of continental northern Europe" I don't want to start that climate comparison thing again but this is such a broad generalisation. Climates vary and differ a lot here even without microclimates and UHIs. You can't even grow Trachys in many parts of continental Europe, while here they are bulletproof. I've been growing Washies for a while now and I also planted a small P. canariensis last year. Of course it's a zone push but being so small it has managed this winter and especially the deep freeze in December very well. I protected it during the cold but just with mulch and fleece which is fine I think. What's considered hardy is also a matter of definition. Imo everything that can grow for many years and has quite a good potential of recovering from a 10 year extreme freeze event at least in bigger numbers is hardy to region. If you have a palm that gets defoliated sometime and recovers and is fine most of the years and is able to produce seeds and provide a next generation to survive that would mean fully hardy to me. We also shouldn't forget that the palms we grow in cultivation are not treated like they are in nature. In many habitats small palms wouldn't survive some bad winters without protection either. But they get protected by canopy and many also just die this is normal and natural. Plus during the 2009, 2008 and even 2021 freeze events even some "native" plants here died. Especially after the 2010 one there were many many dead trees around the city. But I'm not even talking about extreme zone pushs here. I'm just talking about variety. At least some other Trachys than fortunei or a Jubaea or a Sabal.

[Arecaceus]

15 minutes ago, Zeni said:

Lol, don't confirm the Dutch bluntness stereotype. 🤭 🤫

NEIN NEIN NEIN SIS IS WRRONG! Now you don't have to feel too bad. 😂

[Foxpalms]

14 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

I'm planing to protect the Syagrus when it gets too cold in winter. Chamaerops have never died on me. Butias and Jubaeas have been planted here for a long time even before the 2009/2010 events. "climates of continental northern Europe" I don't want to start that climate comparison thing again but this is such a broad generalisation. Climates vary and differ a lot here even without microclimates and UHIs. You can't even grow Trachys in many parts of continental Europe, while here they are bulletproof. I've been growing Washies for a while now and I also planted a small P. canariensis last year. Of course it's a zone push but being so small it has managed this winter and especially the deep freeze in December very well. I protected it during the cold but just with mulch and fleece which is fine I think. What's considered hardy is also a matter of definition. Imo everything that can grow for many years and has quite a good potential of recovering from a 10 year extreme freeze event at least in bigger numbers is hardy to region. If you have a palm that gets defoliated sometime and recovers and is fine most of the years and is able to produce seeds and provide a next generation to survive that would mean fully hardy to me. We also shouldn't forget that the palms we grow in cultivation are not treated like they are in nature. In many habitats small palms wouldn't survive some bad winters without protection either. But they get protected by canopy and many also just die this is normal and natural. Plus during the 2009, 2008 and even 2021 freeze events even some "native" plants here died. Especially after the 2010 one there were many many dead trees around the city. But I'm not even talking about extreme zone pushs here. I'm just talking about variety. At least some other Trachys than fortunei or a Jubaea or a Sabal.

I think if you're zone pushing a palm you should try it at least 3 different times. If it fails. It could be the soil was too wet, it wasn't exposed to cold when smaller or in a bad location in the garden ect when so many people give up after 1 try. Obviously if you are attempting something stupid such as a coconut outside in north west Europe that's different though! Livistonas do well in London, Cornwall and the south coast but again a fairly rare palm here. The only livistona I'm not sure would work here in central London is livistona rotundifolia because it's rated as zone 10b. One of the hardier ones could work for you.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Foxpalms

[Axel Amsterdam]

1 minute ago, Foxpalms said:

I think if you're zone pushing a palm you should try it at least 3 different times. If it fails. It could be the soil was too wet, it wasn't exposed to cold when smaller or in a bad location in the garden ect when so many people give up after 1 try. Obviously if you are attempting something stupid such as a coconut outside in north west Europe that's different though! Livistonas do well in London, Cornwall and the south coast but again a fairly rare palm here. The only livistona I'm not sure would work here in central London is livistona rotundifolia because it's rated as zone 10b.

My usual question 😁, do you know of any livistona outside in London? I have never seen one, not saying it cant be done.

[Arecaceus]

2 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

I think if you're zone pushing a palm you should try it at least 3 different times. If it fails. It could be the soil was too wet, it wasn't exposed to cold when smaller or in a bad location in the garden ect when so many people give up after 1 try. Obviously if you are attempting something stupid such as a coconut outside in north west Europe that's different though! Livistonas do well in London, Cornwall and the south coast but again a fairly rare palm here. The only livistona I'm not sure would work here in central London is livistona rotundifolia because it's rated as zone 10b.

That's my point! And you have to try it for yourself and in your location (with some decent reflection of course). Like I've said several times now. I've been succsessful with plants everyone said are not possible. There are many people who have failed but there also many success stories. Failure is not a reason to give up. At least not right away.

[Arecaceus]

5 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

My usual question 😁, do you know of any livistona outside in London? I have never seen one, not saying it cant be done.

Livistona chinensis and especially nitida are quite hardy though, aren't they?

[Axel Amsterdam]

15 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

Livistona chinensis and especially nitida are quite hardy though, aren't they?

Perhaps, but thats not the point for me. If livistona’s  are called a fairly rare palm in London i’d like to see those. It’s typically a palm that i would like to see how it grows because it has different requirements, like a queen has.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Arecaceus]

2 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Perhaps, but thats not the point for me. If livistona’s  are called a fairly rare palm in London i’d like to see those. It’s typically a palm that i would like to see how it grows because it has different requirements, like a queen. 

I have a small nitida I don't know if to plant out yet. I find them to be very intersting because they also barely tested here and a completely different type of hardy palm.

[Foxpalms]

23 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

My usual question 😁, do you know of any livistona outside in London? I have never seen one, not saying it cant be done.

Yes the tresco abbey gardens, lamorran and the foxrose hill gardens. There's another park in Falmouth that has one but I can't rember the name of it.  I think the grower in southsea also had livistona growing there than didn't die. Someone also seem to be trying one on YouTube a few miles inland from the sea but it's not the south coast it's further north. There's also a few in London. One of the college's/universities has a Livingston's chilensis. Some people on forums said they have them growing in the UK. 

[Foxpalms]

14 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Perhaps, but thats not the point for me. If livistona’s  are called a fairly rare palm in London i’d like to see those. It’s typically a palm that i would like to see how it grows because it has different requirements, like a queen has.

If you contact lamorran gardens they might be able to give you photos and more information on theirs. Here is their australis and I think I forgot to take a photo of their chilensis. Annoyingly I also forgot to take a photo of their Norfolk Island pine but I did see it.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Foxpalms

[MarcusH]

4 hours ago, Xenon said:

Drive 4 hours south if you want to see millions of queen palms hiding between the billions of Washingtonia 😆

for something closer, lots of queen palms in Laredo too

Definitely on my bucket list. Can't wait to see all their palms from Royal to Queens. When I first visited Corpus Christi in 2019 before I moved to San Antonio I was surprised how many palms there were.  It definitely looks like Florida washies and sabsls all over yep lol millions 

[Banana Belt]

On 2/2/2023 at 7:13 PM, UK_Palms said:

 

Summers may be marginally warmer where you are, but the rest of the year isn't as warm or dry as London and southern England. Otherwise I am sure Vancouver Island would be loaded with CIDP's and Washingtonia by now, which it just isn't. I can also see that Nanoose Bay has 1,940 hours of sunshine annually compared to say 2,150 hours at Selsey in Sussex, a difference of 200+ hours, but that is also the sunniest place in the UK. Your area has the same amount of sunshine hours as Southsea/Portsmouth, but the climates are quite different still.

I actually just dropped the street view curser down on a random street in Portsmouth and spotted yet another large backyard CIDP lurking there. I have never seen or posted this one before. It must be bigger than the house now with 2-3 meters of clear trunk and the street view image is 18 months old now too. One of hundreds of large ones in the Portsmouth area. The crowns are huge and lush as well. Slightly less summer heat is a minor trade off to be able to grow specimens like this. I certainly know what climate I would rather be living in.

 

More Portsmouth ones lurking down side roads that I haven't posted before. Not exactly little ones for the future either.

 

Portsmouth can grow a good Washingtonia too, like the one I photographed recently. Portsmouth vs Tofino or anywhere in BC is a no contest, let alone central London, Isle of Wight, Torquay or Cornwall. Again a minor trade off in summer heat is nothing to be able to grow this stuff. 

 

Brookings, OR at 42N is probably equivalent of say Ventnor (50N) in the Isle of Wight, although I think the Isle of Wight is well clear in terms of Washingtonia with 40 footer Robusta's self seeding there. The big hybrid stand at Ventnor also went from 3 footers to 35 footers in just over a decade. I doubt growth rates are even remotely comparable in Brookings.

Brookings may have some bigger specimens overall as they were planted way earlier, but the Isle of Wight stuff will overtake it. The IOW only had access to Cordylines and Trachycarpus until the late 90's. I see Brookings actually has colder summers than anywhere on the south coast of England too, including Tresco. I know that is due to cold ocean currents, but that is still surprising. If Queens work there, they would work in Isle of Wight, Devon, Cornwall, Isles of Scilly etc. They should plant some bigger ones.

Gold beach is probably equivalent of Portsmouth/Southsea region. Again the CIDP's were planted much later in Portsmouth but appear to be starting to overtake the Gold Beach ones due to quicker growth rates. CIDP and Washingtonia are absolute rockets in London and the south coast. 3-4 foot up to 30 foot within in a decade.

@gurugu It's gutting to see those Archontophoenix and Kentia cut down. I have lost track of all the CIDP's & Washingtonia that have been chopped here, many of which have been posted previously. Quite a few big ones in London have been cut down over the past 2 years. Thankfully northern Spain and southern England have enough palms that it isn't too noticeable or devastating when it does happen. It would be a lot worse if there was only a few palms around and one got cut down.

This is I believe Brookings largest and oldest CIDP.  It was large when I first came to Brookings in 1969 and I think it was planted in the 50's or shortly after the war when that section of town was built.

[Foxpalms]

4 hours ago, Banana Belt said:

This is I believe Brookings largest and oldest CIDP.  It was large when I first came to Brookings in 1969 and I think it was planted in the 50's or shortly after the war when that section of town was built.

This is the largest one in London. I think it was planted in the 1980s

[Axel Amsterdam]

On 2/4/2023 at 4:37 AM, Foxpalms said:

@Axel AmsterdamIt has a bit of potassium deficiency but over all it's looks alright. Will give it some fertilizer around the end of March. It's in the hottest part of the garden in the summer but that area isn't as warm as the area closer to the house and area under the eucalyptus canopy during the winter. May also be able to spot an ensete, chamedorea and lemon tree in the photo. Also just gave it some water because the soil was looking very dry. Had to move some of the cannas since they were so tall they blocked the sunlight from the lower frond. All together it has 6 fronds on it. As UK palms said, it's very hard to get large palms and hard to even buy small queen palms. I have a few seedlings growing on that hopefully one day will also be in ground. It would be nice if it was as easy as it is in the EU and USA to buy palms in the UK.

I am still intrigued why queens grow so slowly in the UK so i searched a little more to find out the exact difference. Any comparison with TX is useless imo. So first we have Brittany, where there are a couple of queens in very very sheltered spots. These in Fouesnant took many years to really start growing in a sheltered courtyard but finally became beautiful: So no heat, but incredibly sheltered and you have to have patience for 10 years. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

The one above was planted in 2007, picture from 2011. So very slow, but luckily still alive

Edited February 5, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Axel Amsterdam]

Next one in Brest, no heat but an incredibly sheltered spot and a sparse crown. First years it did nothing and then it started growing vertically,  doing reasonably well. Old picture I am afraid.

[Ryland]

On 2/3/2023 at 7:35 PM, Banana Belt said:

 

The Palm on the right is a Queen, and the owner tells me the small palm on left is a King.  I am not familiar with King Palms, so would not know.

They are indeed.  These are on Wharf Street, I've posted them before in another thread, much more recent photos.  They have become much taller and are really a lovely sight.  Perhaps @Banana Belt you'd be able to get some updated photos at some point?  If you go down Wharf Street they're on the right, you can't miss them.

[Axel Amsterdam]

Now a jump to a little more heat and sun than the UK/London can provide, but still no mild coastal cote d’azur location. It experienced -7C in winter.

Toulouse 2014 and 2017. That is what summer heat and sun does imo.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Axel Amsterdam]

Found a 2018 picture of the queen in Brest. Much better crown it seems.

[gurugu]

2 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Next one in Brest, no heat but an incredibly sheltered spot and a sparse crown. First years it did nothing and then it started growing vertically,  doing reasonably well. Old picture I am afraid.

That's precisely the one I wąs talking about. I didn't know the other in Bretagne. In Cote d'azur there are plenty of them according to the French forum "Fous de Palmiers" which I visit frequently. 

Thanks. 

BTW. they are growing in Brittain many other palms, such as: Juania australis, Dypsis decipiens, Livistonas, Sabals, Chamaedoreas, etc. A guy in Concarneu had an Archonto cunning planted outdoors for 11 years until it died at - 5,8ºC. Now he is trying again with Cunninghamiana, Alexandrae and Ilawarra. 

A champion! 

[Marco67]

13 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Marco, this is too broad a generalisation. 

Perhaps Hortulanus can first tell is if he means unprotected growth in Dusseldorf or protected (with a construction/heat etc). How is your filifera protected e.g?

If you talk about butia (eriospatha) and CIDP than coastal Holland has a couple of successtories with very minimal to no protection. Kristof has a large unprotected butia in Belgium. I think you also know about the jubaea surviving year after year in Belgium (small trunk) and ofcourse 2 very large trunking specimens in Amsterdam zoo. So there are successtories but i agree there are only a few. I have seen many failures, including my own, although this winter so far, washingtonias look allright. They are not long term though just like in most of the UK.

 

I have tried Butia Capitata(which it was called back then) and Eriospatha. They survived for some years but eventually both succumbed to rot. Also tried a small Jubaea Chilensis but unfortunately it also died after a couple of years. 

I am not totally convinced a Butia can survive unprotected in Amsterdam. We had a lot of winters in the past which would have been absolutely lethal for Butia's. Perhaps they are in a very sheltered spot or are protected during the winter.  

When I started this hobby many years ago I planted all sorts of plants which where risky to say the least. After many experimenting I started to discover which species can make it and even thrive and which don't have a fighting chance. It takes a couple of disastrous winters to learn these lessons unfortunately. 

It is still close to a miracle that we can plant these kind of trees and plants at all considering our latitude so perhaps we shouldn't be complaining. 

[Marco67]

14 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

I'm planing to protect the Syagrus when it gets too cold in winter. Chamaerops have never died on me. Butias and Jubaeas have been planted here for a long time even before the 2009/2010 events. "climates of continental northern Europe" I don't want to start that climate comparison thing again but this is such a broad generalisation. Climates vary and differ a lot here even without microclimates and UHIs. You can't even grow Trachys in many parts of continental Europe, while here they are bulletproof. I've been growing Washies for a while now and I also planted a small P. canariensis last year. Of course it's a zone push but being so small it has managed this winter and especially the deep freeze in December very well. I protected it during the cold but just with mulch and fleece which is fine I think. What's considered hardy is also a matter of definition. Imo everything that can grow for many years and has quite a good potential of recovering from a 10 year extreme freeze event at least in bigger numbers is hardy to region. If you have a palm that gets defoliated sometime and recovers and is fine most of the years and is able to produce seeds and provide a next generation to survive that would mean fully hardy to me. We also shouldn't forget that the palms we grow in cultivation are not treated like they are in nature. In many habitats small palms wouldn't survive some bad winters without protection either. But they get protected by canopy and many also just die this is normal and natural. Plus during the 2009, 2008 and even 2021 freeze events even some "native" plants here died. Especially after the 2010 one there were many many dead trees around the city. But I'm not even talking about extreme zone pushs here. I'm just talking about variety. At least some other Trachys than fortunei or a Jubaea or a Sabal.

With continental Europe I meant to say coastal continental Europe.  I should have been more explicit. I agree not many exotisch will survive unprotected in a country like Poland  

Are these Butias and Jubaeas protected during the winter ? I don't hear many long term succes stories over here which is also my own experience with these species. 

Instead of Washingtonia's and Canariensis which are very iffy where you live I think you might try things like Sabal Louisiana, Sabal x Texensis or Sabal McCurtain. Even Rhapidophyllum hystrix might be worth a shot. At least you'll be ok when the next ice age hits Europe 😁 

They do surprisingly well in my garden and can stand the cold and damp weather without a problem. Unfortunately they are very difficult to obtain. I grew mine from seeds. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

1 hour ago, Marco67 said:

I have tried Butia Capitata(which it was called back then) and Eriospatha. They survived for some years but eventually both succumbed to rot. Also tried a small Jubaea Chilensis but unfortunately it also died after a couple of years. 

I am not totally convinced a Butia can survive unprotected in Amsterdam. We had a lot of winters in the past which would have been absolutely lethal for Butia's. Perhaps they are in a very sheltered spot or are protected during the winter.  

When I started this hobby many years ago I planted all sorts of plants which where risky to say the least. After many experimenting I started to discover which species can make it and even thrive and which don't have a fighting chance. It takes a couple of disastrous winters to learn these lessons unfortunately. 

It is still close to a miracle that we can plant these kind of trees and plants at all considering our latitude so perhaps we shouldn't be complaining. 

Ok i get your point. First we have to distinguish between protected and not protected. Many Dutch ( and German) growers build constructions with some form of heating inside for the wintermonths. These experiences are totally irrelevant to me.

Second, some growers protect only during severe cold spells, usually one or two weeks. Fleece, tarps, some christmas lights whatever. These experiences are meaningful because they show the palm is able to cope with the climate for 95 percent of the year on average. Thats where the longer term possibilities lay for butia, CIDP, armata etc.

And then there are some miracle exceptions of these palms that survive without the incidental protection, for the last 5/6 years. I know some convincing examples of CIDP, butia and jubaea, the best ones very coastal. Not Amsterdam. 

Very few, but still there and therefore interesting.

This eriospatha had only a bit of fleece around the spear during a week where everybody was skating on the lakes around Amsterdam. Not a single brown frond since its planting around 5 years ago. Location 10 km outside Amsterdam, no UHI.

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Foxpalms]

@Axel AmsterdamEven with the faster growth rate from my experience growing queen's here than other people have had in the UK it's still obviously slow compared to tropical and subtropical regions, but I think with patience as the ones you posted have they can turn into really nice looking palms. I also think queen palms as they get larger start to look better. I think most of the inland towns in Brittany are similar temperature wise to here except they get colder during bad winter cold spells. Brittany has more rainfall and sunshine hours annually than here. Fairly similar, so it will be interesting what the growth rate is like in comparison.

[Axel Amsterdam]

37 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

I think most of the inland towns in Brittany are similar temperature wise to here except they get colder during bad winter cold spells. 

I think the inland locations of Brittany are irrelevant. It really is all about the coastal locations and especially from Brest downwards. London is warmer in summer than these locations and coastal UK, on average, is not as mild in winter as these places. Not saying that it makes a world of difference for a queen. Just that coastal Brittany is not the same as coastal UK. It is milder on average.

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Axel Amsterdam]

Concarneau Brittany

[Axel Amsterdam]

Sabal Bermudana in coastal Brittany, this is exceptional because like the queen it seems to prefer heat, but Brittany suits them.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Banana Belt]

I believe the following observations are true and correct me where wrong. 

1) Water is a great absorbent of solar energy, unless frozen over and covered with snow.  Open water like a lake, bay, estuary, ocean or small pond absorbs the solar energy proportional to size.

2) Water also has high storativity of the solar energy and through convection can distribute this energy from one place to another, like the Gulf Stream in the North Atlantic.

3) Because water is composed of Hydrogen and Oxygen, the hydrogen makes water a good radiation shield for high energy electromagnetic waves or particles.  When the high energy  radiation hits hydrogen it produces heat energy in the water. 

4) In addition to open water, water saturated soils also absorb solar energy greatly and warm up.  Observation of this is when a plowed field is dry the soil will warm up to some degree but will warm up many times faster and more when rained on or irrigated and wet. 

5) Rain warms up the atmosphere and ground when it precipitates and falls.  If a location gets night-time rain and day-time sun, this greatly increases the micro-climate zone, as the night time rain and clouds protect loss of energy to space and the day time sun warms up the wet ground. 

6) High humidity air stores more energy than dry air, and transmission of energy through humid air is much slower than through dry air.  It is the water in the air that makes this so.

The above are just a few ways in my opinion that micro-climates whether hundreds of square kilometers or small back yards are adjusted for climate.

[Foxpalms]

32 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

I think the inland locations of Brittany are irrelevant. It really is all about the coastal locations and especially from Brest downwards. London is warmer in summer than these locations and coastal UK, on average, is not as mild in winter as these places. Not saying that it makes a world of difference for a queen. Just that coastal Brittany is not the same as coastal UK. It is milder on average.

 

I know but during a bad winter because costal Brittany is still mainland France it can get colder. But it depends on the location most of the south coast isn't as mild as Ventnor, central London, far south west costal Cornwall, the Scilly isles and the channel Islands. The channel Islands are probably also somewhere queen's should be tried since they have over 2000 hours of sunshine annually and a very similar climate to Brittany. The summer definitely makes more of a difference since the Scilly isles (zone 10b) have an average high of 10c with a low of 7c during coldest month, either way that's not high enough for a queen to be growing and during the summers it's cool so even if tried they would be very slow

Edited February 5, 2023 by Foxpalms

[Arecaceus]

5 hours ago, Marco67 said:

With continental Europe I meant to say coastal continental Europe.  I should have been more explicit. I agree not many exotisch will survive unprotected in a country like Poland  

Are these Butias and Jubaeas protected during the winter ? I don't hear many long term succes stories over here which is also my own experience with these species. 

Instead of Washingtonia's and Canariensis which are very iffy where you live I think you might try things like Sabal Louisiana, Sabal x Texensis or Sabal McCurtain. Even Rhapidophyllum hystrix might be worth a shot. At least you'll be ok when the next ice age hits Europe 😁 

They do surprisingly well in my garden and can stand the cold and damp weather without a problem. Unfortunately they are very difficult to obtain. I grew mine from seeds. 

I think that those for example aren't protected. I can't vouch for that because I don't know for sure. I've never seen them being protected. And I also can't imagine that anybody would do that because there are lots more than I posted in all kinds of spots and many are just too big to protect. Also you can still see the leaf damage from the freeze of Feb. 2021 in those pictures.

There are other Butias I've not yet seen being protected. I might take some pictures for this forum of all kinds of exotics growing in my area. The only issue is that I'm always a bit hesitant about taking pictures of private gardens and to post them online. The pictures of the post above were easy to take because they are mostly on a public road and more on display. I'll start off with posting stories and experiences within my own garden this year anyways.

It's funny that you say that because I actually didn't have much luck with Sabal and Rhapidophyllum in the past. 😂 Rhapidophyllum was alright but not looking to well and it did even flower sometime but I didn't like it so much and I donated it to our botanical garden in Düsseldorf. I don't know if it's still there but even there it struggled at first. Maybe because it was taken out of my garden then potted into a container and planted out in the ground again in the summer heat. I'm just starting out with further Sabal experiments. I'm also growing several from seed at the moment. I had a Sabal x brazoriensis that declined for no apparent reason and died the last summer. The only Sabal I'm happy with is Sabal uresana. It has been planted out then been potted into a container and also replanted outside and did well even though Sabals are supposedly very root sensitive. It froze back in Feb. 2021 completely unprotected but recovered without any help in the cold and wet spring and summer of 2021. But it's interesting you say that because that means you're actually spreading out the variety of palms you grow. Not just Trachys and Chamaerops then.

Washingtonias are a zone push here of course but against all odds they did a lot better than I expected. W. filifera might even a fully hardy candidate. Just need more time to be fully varified. P. canariensis has failed for me twice but not for reasons that would make them a definite fail here. I'll also post about this in spring if the seed grown one that's now in the ground actually survived this winter. Other than that I usually have my P. canariensis (several) outdoors in pots all year. When it gets cold I just pull them next to the wall. Hasn't been an issue for years. Of course I took them inside in an event like Feb. 2021. It's sad that you didn't have your luck with some, but you had luck with some I didn't. The question is why things failed. And I also have to add that my microclimate is great and inside the UHI. I know one Butia around here though, that is in a front garden mostly outside of the UHI (it's hard to get fully away from it around here) and it's also at a higher elevation. Other than that I'm thinking long term with my experiments. I have been doing this for about 15 years now and climate is changeing a lot. The hotter and drier summers make up for many things and I also believe that even though cold spells seem to happen more frequently they are constantly getting less severe.

[RJ]

2 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Sabal Bermudana in coastal Brittany, this is exceptional because like the queen it seems to prefer heat, but Brittany suits them.

 

I’ve read that Sabal Bermudana suits cooler climates we’ll be because  Bermuda doesn’t get overly hot. Apparently coconut’s grow there but don’t set fruit because of the lack of heat. 

[Arecaceus]

5 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Ok i get your point. First we have to distinguish between protected and not protected. Many Dutch ( and German) growers build constructions with some form of heating inside for the wintermonths. These experiences are totally irrelevant to me.

Second, some growers protect only during severe cold spells, usually one or two weeks. Fleece, tarps, some christmas lights whatever. These experiences are meaningful because they show the palm is able to cope with the climate for 95 percent of the year on average. Thats where the longer term possibilities lay for butia, CIDP, armata etc.

And then there are some miracle exceptions of these palms that survive without the incidental protection, for the last 5/6 years. I know some convincing examples of CIDP, butia and jubaea, the best ones very coastal. Not Amsterdam. 

Very few, but still there and therefore interesting.

This eriospatha had only a bit of fleece around the spear during a week where everybody was skating on the lakes around Amsterdam. Not a single brown frond since its planting around 5 years ago. Location 10 km outside Amsterdam, no UHI.

 

That's my opinon as well. Light protection makes up for the canopy or mother plant protection in nature. Size makes all the difference with palms. The bigger they get the stronger they are. We shouldn't forget that even a 10 year old palm is often still a baby. In my opinion slightly protected specially when young is a growable plant. It's only about getting killed but also optical damage. We also water our plants or put them into shade. So covering them up a bit during a cold is not meaning they are completely out of the picture.

[Arecaceus]

7 minutes ago, RJ said:

I’ve read that Sabal Bermudana suits cooler climates we’ll be because  Bermuda doesn’t get overly hot. Apparently coconut’s grow there but don’t set fruit because of the lack of heat. 

Yes very unique climate around there. Don't know how cold hardy it is though. But S. causiarum is also very hardy considering it being from the Antilles.