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Polar Vortex 2022...... who's ready?


Sabal King

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16 minutes ago, gurugu said:

Taken out by humans as well?

  

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45 minutes ago, ShadyDan said:

You are nitpicking data. If you look at the official weather data from official weather stations (which I did), my point hold true, there are warmer parts of Vancouver Island in the summer AND winter than London. The source I used for London is Greenwich Park (Met office) and for Nanaimo Airport / University of Victoria was Environment Canada. 2 pretty legit sources of data if you ask me. You also can't just post 1 years worth of data and say that London is warmer. Go back to 2021 during our heat dome and you will see our averages our probably much higher than yours (parts of the Island officially hit 43C), but that really doesn't mater as its just one summers worth of data.

Yes and Greenwich is in East London and experiences cooler summers secondly the station isn't even in Greenwich it's south of there in a park that gets much colder than Greenwich it's self in the winter and is also slightly cooler than there in the summer. Here in central London further west than Greenwich (inland) and in a more urban densely populated area. The average temperature in Victoria June 2021 when the heat done occurred was 63.5f obviously other parts of BC would have gotten hotter. What's important is context though the weather station you got you're data from is one of the cooler parts of London during the summer and it's not really even in Greenwich. Also I was talking about the last 10 years not so much long term data which is what the metoffice station is showing.That is because the summers here have only been getting hotter an hotter you could also ask @UK_Palmsor @Hortulanushow much warmer and drier the summers in the western Europe are now compared to what they used to be and I'm sure they would agree.  For the winter the Greenwich station again is in a park in the outskirts not in central London. London has a massive urban heat island so depending on where the temperature is significantly different. I also can't find where it shows the yearly averages for Victoria on environment Canada and every other website shows lower average temperatures than here. That being said most of those websites usually aren't accurate as I said before. If these averages are wrong say so but Google is showing this for Tofino compared to London for long term data. Again also worth mentioning this data isn't from central London and the highs are definitely lower than in the last 10 years here. The reason why I also picked the last 10 years to get that 77f/25c average July and August high is because most private weather stations (Davis vantage pro 2) in London doesn't show data further back than that on the internet. When looking at Nanaimo Airport the long term highs are higher than the "London" highs (because the data isn't even taken from central London) and as I said before the summers here are warmer than they used to be. Either way it's still not as warm in July and August as you can see the lows on there are lower. Anyway theres no point in arguing what's warmer the summer high here is 25c in the last 10 years and it's only going to increase. Out of curiosity what would you say is the mildest part of BC in the winter? 

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Edited by Foxpalms
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5 minutes ago, Banana Belt said:

I agree!

I think the issue with costal Oregon further north is it becomes too wet and too cool in the summer and further north inland it's too cold in the winter. Brookings definitely has a great microclimate.

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3 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

I think the issue with costal Oregon further north is it becomes too wet and too cool in the summer and further north inland it's too cold in the winter. Brookings definitely has a great microclimate.

I have lived up and down the Oregon coast, Netarts Bay, Newport, Florence, Coos Bay and now Brookings.  From north to south the climate and weather gets better, but not until a dozen miles north of Brookings at Pistol River does the climate really bounce up in zone's.  Even the North side of Brookings is colder, wetter and much windier than south of Brookings City and into the Harbor Agriculture zone.  It is the Harbor Agriculture area where it truly is sub-tropical with many kinds of Citrus, Avocados, Norfolk Island Pines and of course dozens of different Palms.  Brookings does have a King Palm, no one has tried it in the Harbor area, at least I have not seen one. 

As for weather temperatures, the Harbor area close to the ocean has not had a temp. below 31 F in about 5 years.  This year the coldest I saw was about 33 F.  It will often get into the low 20's a few miles inland, but the Ocean just won't have it.  Opposite is true in Summer when it will be well over 100 F five to ten miles east, but down here next the ocean temps. will be in the 70's very comfortable.  During the forest fires of summer the air within a mile of the coast will be hazardous to breath, hot smokey 1/8 mile visibility and awful, but down near the ocean the air will be cool, clean with very little smoke and 10 mile visibility.  We can see the red air smoke above us, but not down by the ocean.

But the Harbor area is not utopia as we also get very cold fog for months, July, Aug and Sept.  Some years are better than others.

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49 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

@ShadyDan I can't find a single part of Vancouver island warmer than here in the summer and winter do you have a link also to that station?

https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/45062~145196/Comparison-of-the-Average-Weather-in-London-and-Victoria-University
 

I was using Wikipedia originally, but here’s a comparison from weatherspark. Pretty darn close. And I didn’t even use colder Greenwich for the comparison, which Vic would come out on top. London only has an edge for overnight temps part of the year, (UHI) I imagine. Victoria the clear winner for sunshine hours and solar radiation year round. 
 

Many areas have much warmer highs in the summer than London, or even Victoria. Port Alberni, Nanaimo, Duncan to name a few…

Zone 8b, Csb (Warm-summer Mediterranean climate). 1,940 annual sunshine hours 
Annual lows-> 19/20: -5.0C, 20/21: -5.5C, 21/22: -8.3C, 22/23: -9.4C, 23/24: 1.1C (so far!)

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2 hours ago, gurugu said:

Where are those famous Archontophoenix in Brookings? Still alive? I saw a picture long ago, and they were just awesome.

All alive and doing well.

There was a post here on Palm Talk last year someplace which showed the Queens of Brookings Oregon.  But any any case here is a picture of my Queen and Jubaea.

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50 minutes ago, ShadyDan said:

https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/45062~145196/Comparison-of-the-Average-Weather-in-London-and-Victoria-University
 

I was using Wikipedia originally, but here’s a comparison from weatherspark. Pretty darn close. And I didn’t even use colder Greenwich for the comparison, which Vic would come out on top. London only has an edge for overnight temps part of the year, (UHI) I imagine. Victoria the clear winner for sunshine hours and solar radiation year round. 
 

Many areas have much warmer highs in the summer than London, or even Victoria. Port Alberni, Nanaimo, Duncan to name a few…

BC is definitely more sunny than London. The Wikipedia temperature data isn't taken from central London though there isn't a single official station set up in central Londons urban area that's one of the main issues. Secondly st James park again a large park doesn't record or show the averages online like Heathrow, there are only websites guessing them which aren't accurate. Taken from lots of private weather station (accurate ones such as the Davis ones)  the average I calculated from them all was 25c/77f high with 16c/61f for July and August and 9.5c/49f high and 5c/41f low for the winter. The annual rainfall in central London is between 20-22 inches depending on where you are. This is from the last 10 years in central London. Also in the last 5 years of data it's even higher. As far as I'm aware theres no official weather stations in central London that log data in an annual average. Victoria's summer high is 20c and Duncan's is 23c. The averages in London are confusing for most people because there's not a single website that uses data from a weather station in central London only old long term data from colder parts of London. I think I have talked about that before a few months ago. The met office needs to set up an official station in somewhere like the victoria embankment gardens or around st Paul's cathedral. The same website that someone on Wikipedia used to create those averages said London went down to -7c this year so it can't be anywhere in central London for certain. The data from that website also just seems dodgy and the forecast is much lower compared to the BBC and metoffice even.  Essentially there are no official stations in central London so they use ones from colder parts and its old long term data that isn't accurate to the temperatures we experience today in London, hence why you never would of seen queen's growing here 30-40 years ago but I can grow them with no problems today. I'm guessing though the weather station data in BC is more up to date and actually in the location it says it's in.  Really make me consider making a website and using data from my Davis weather station to try and give more accurate averages, but first I need to buy a weather link live. Also if it was just the rainfall that meant certain exotics couldn't grow in BC then things that tolerate wet conditions such as archontophoenix, howea forsteriana, Rhopalostylis sapida and Norfolk Island pines should work in the very mildest parts of BC. Here's a Norfolk Island pine completely undamaged by the December freeze and a bougainvillea still in flower after the freeze.

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Edited by Foxpalms
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3 hours ago, ShadyDan said:

You are nitpicking data. If you look at the official weather data from official weather stations (which I did), my point hold true, there are warmer parts of Vancouver Island in the summer AND winter than London. The source I used for London is Greenwich Park (Met office) and for Nanaimo Airport / University of Victoria was Environment Canada. 2 pretty legit sources of data if you ask me. You also can't just post 1 years worth of data and say that London is warmer. Go back to 2021 during our heat dome and you will see our averages our probably much higher than yours (parts of the Island officially hit 43C), but that really doesn't mater as its just one summers worth of data.

 

Summers may be marginally warmer where you are, but the rest of the year isn't as warm or dry as London and southern England. Otherwise I am sure Vancouver Island would be loaded with CIDP's and Washingtonia by now, which it just isn't. I can also see that Nanoose Bay has 1,940 hours of sunshine annually compared to say 2,150 hours at Selsey in Sussex, a difference of 200+ hours, but that is also the sunniest place in the UK. Your area has the same amount of sunshine hours as Southsea/Portsmouth, but the climates are quite different still.

I actually just dropped the street view curser down on a random street in Portsmouth and spotted yet another large backyard CIDP lurking there. I have never seen or posted this one before. It must be bigger than the house now with 2-3 meters of clear trunk and the street view image is 18 months old now too. One of hundreds of large ones in the Portsmouth area. The crowns are huge and lush as well. Slightly less summer heat is a minor trade off to be able to grow specimens like this. I certainly know what climate I would rather be living in.

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More Portsmouth ones lurking down side roads that I haven't posted before. Not exactly little ones for the future either.

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Portsmouth can grow a good Washingtonia too, like the one I photographed recently. Portsmouth vs Tofino or anywhere in BC is a no contest, let alone central London, Isle of Wight, Torquay or Cornwall. Again a minor trade off in summer heat is nothing to be able to grow this stuff. 

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Brookings, OR at 42N is probably equivalent of say Ventnor (50N) in the Isle of Wight, although I think the Isle of Wight is well clear in terms of Washingtonia with 40 footer Robusta's self seeding there. The big hybrid stand at Ventnor also went from 3 footers to 35 footers in just over a decade. I doubt growth rates are even remotely comparable in Brookings.

Brookings may have some bigger specimens overall as they were planted way earlier, but the Isle of Wight stuff will overtake it. The IOW only had access to Cordylines and Trachycarpus until the late 90's. I see Brookings actually has colder summers than anywhere on the south coast of England too, including Tresco. I know that is due to cold ocean currents, but that is still surprising. If Queens work there, they would work in Isle of Wight, Devon, Cornwall, Isles of Scilly etc. They should plant some bigger ones.

Gold beach is probably equivalent of Portsmouth/Southsea region. Again the CIDP's were planted much later in Portsmouth but appear to be starting to overtake the Gold Beach ones due to quicker growth rates. CIDP and Washingtonia are absolute rockets in London and the south coast. 3-4 foot up to 30 foot within in a decade.

@gurugu It's gutting to see those Archontophoenix and Kentia cut down. I have lost track of all the CIDP's & Washingtonia that have been chopped here, many of which have been posted previously. Quite a few big ones in London have been cut down over the past 2 years. Thankfully northern Spain and southern England have enough palms that it isn't too noticeable or devastating when it does happen. It would be a lot worse if there was only a few palms around and one got cut down.

Edited by UK_Palms
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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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@UK_PalmsI would agree going off the old long term data from say Heathrow (data from 60s-2010) but I think the argument could be made when looking at the last 10 years in London that the summers are warmer. The south coast is definitely cooler in the summer though. That's why I was asking if the averages data in BC is up to date because when looking at the past 10 summers here compared to there the summer averages are warmer here. I'm not sure what BCs temperatures are predicted to be in 2050 but London' is supposed supposed to have an average high of 29c/84f in July and August by then. Do you know what height roughly the the Washingtonia robusta in the robin hill adventure park on the isle of wight?  That one in particular looks massive. I lost count last year but my washingtonia Robusta grew more than 25 fronds last year and around 3ft taller. Wonder what kind of grow rate they got in 2021 in the Pacific Northwest during the heat dome year in comparison.

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@Foxpalms I wouldn't read too much into future climate projections. All that matters is that we have no more serious freezes like 1963, 1987 or 2010. Fortunately the severity and frequency of freeze events has been waning since the 1800's. Also our summers are fairly warm and relatively dry most years, regardless of what people think. A lot of palms and exotics do pretty well in London's UHI and the protected south coast areas. We aren't anywhere near reaching the potential capable over here, especially with crownshafts.

It is probably only a matter of time before we start seeing Syagrus and Archontophoenix becoming established in protected spots like central London, Ventnor, Torquay, Falmouth etc. They haven't really been given a chance yet in the better places really. If they are surviving in Brookings, they should survive here. They would get higher summer averages in southern England, but less sunlight too, which balances that out. Winter temperatures are comparable to Brookings, so Queens especially should get a foot hold in places soon.

It was only 20-25 years or so ago that the first CIDP's were even being planted in places like the Isle of Wight. Now they have 40 foot specimens. You couldn't even buy CIDP's in London before about 2005, so we are playing catch up big time in the UK. We have actually wasted decades of potential. We would have colossal specimens on the mainland in places if they were even just planted in the 70's and 80's, which they weren't. Not to mention we don't import any big ones or anything and rely on planting tiny specimens of everything.

Back to the topic of polar vortexes, it looks like the Siberian express that was supposed to hit us is now going to plough into southeastern Europe. So Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Greece, Turkey, Cyrpus etc are all going to get affected. Some very low temperatures both day and night as well as quite a bit of snowfall in many areas. It may not be too bad overall, or it may be a really quite severe freeze. We will know in the next few days.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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I am not getting into these climate comparisons. 

Regarding growing conditions for queens in the UK: there are currently no longer term survivor stories/pictures of queens in the UK, except for a few in the London area (8 years max).

They have been tried elsewhere in the UK and failed, no matter how how much climate data or pictures of CIDP’s and washies we collect of these mild places, they still failed also there. 

So there are some queens that survive in the larger London area’s and do 1 to 2 full fronds per year. Foxpalms lives in the warmest area of London so no doubt your queens will also survive winter and keep growing. You said the queens in your garden grow more than 2 fronds. Its possible but from the last picture i have seen i couldnt figure out what the crown looked like. Can you post pictures of both your queens and tell us about the date of planting or perhaps post a picture of the original planting? I am really interested in these observations.

 

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7 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

Yes and Greenwich is in East London and experiences cooler summers secondly the station isn't even in Greenwich it's south of there in a park that gets much colder than Greenwich it's self in the winter and is also slightly cooler than there in the summer. Here in central London further west than Greenwich (inland) and in a more urban densely populated area. The average temperature in Victoria June 2021 when the heat done occurred was 63.5f obviously other parts of BC would have gotten hotter. What's important is context though the weather station you got you're data from is one of the cooler parts of London during the summer and it's not really even in Greenwich. Also I was talking about the last 10 years not so much long term data which is what the metoffice station is showing.That is because the summers here have only been getting hotter an hotter you could also ask @UK_Palmsor @Hortulanushow much warmer and drier the summers in the western Europe are now compared to what they used to be and I'm sure they would agree.  For the winter the Greenwich station again is in a park in the outskirts not in central London. London has a massive urban heat island so depending on where the temperature is significantly different. I also can't find where it shows the yearly averages for Victoria on environment Canada and every other website shows lower average temperatures than here. That being said most of those websites usually aren't accurate as I said before. If these averages are wrong say so but Google is showing this for Tofino compared to London for long term data. Again also worth mentioning this data isn't from central London and the highs are definitely lower than in the last 10 years here. The reason why I also picked the last 10 years to get that 77f/25c average July and August high is because most private weather stations (Davis vantage pro 2) in London doesn't show data further back than that on the internet. When looking at Nanaimo Airport the long term highs are higher than the "London" highs (because the data isn't even taken from central London) and as I said before the summers here are warmer than they used to be. Either way it's still not as warm in July and August as you can see the lows on there are lower. Anyway theres no point in arguing what's warmer the summer high here is 25c in the last 10 years and it's only going to increase. Out of curiosity what would you say is the mildest part of BC in the winter? 

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About the hotter and drier summers. Yes that's true!

  

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2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@Foxpalms I wouldn't read too much into future climate projections. All that matters is that we have no more serious freezes like 1963, 1987 or 2010. Fortunately the severity and frequency of freeze events has been waning since the 1800's. Also our summers are fairly warm and relatively dry most years, regardless of what people think. A lot of palms and exotics do pretty well in London's UHI and the protected south coast areas. We aren't anywhere near reaching the potential capable over here, especially with crownshafts.

It is probably only a matter of time before we start seeing Syagrus and Archontophoenix becoming established in protected spots like central London, Ventnor, Torquay, Falmouth etc. They haven't really been given a chance yet in the better places really. If they are surviving in Brookings, they should survive here. They would get higher summer averages in southern England, but less sunlight too, which balances that out. Winter temperatures are comparable to Brookings, so Queens especially should get a foot hold in places soon.

It was only 20-25 years or so ago that the first CIDP's were even being planted in places like the Isle of Wight. Now they have 40 foot specimens. You couldn't even buy CIDP's in London before about 2005, so we are playing catch up big time in the UK. We have actually wasted decades of potential. We would have colossal specimens on the mainland in places if they were even just planted in the 70's and 80's, which they weren't. Not to mention we don't import any big ones or anything and rely on planting tiny specimens of everything.

Back to the topic of polar vortexes, it looks like the Siberian express that was supposed to hit us is now going to plough into southeastern Europe. So Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Greece, Turkey, Cyrpus etc are all going to get affected. Some very low temperatures both day and night as well as quite a bit of snowfall in many areas. It may not be too bad overall, or it may be a really quite severe freeze. We will know in the next few days.

Fn_u3mhXoAEQLqC.jpg.a0bce0c09bccbae30cbe31d64ae3f1a3.jpg

gfs_T2m_eu_18.jpg.402d8620aa24f3bb59438e2aeca5e3f7.jpg

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Going back to the subject matter: Right now the forecasts and models all seem to differ by a lot. At first it looked like the high pressure system is going to protect us from further cold now the positioning of most models suggest that it's sucking cold air towards the West. Forecasts for Düsseldorf (weather station of course) differ from predictions about +1°C at nights and 11°C daytime highs and -3°C at night with daytime highs of only 2°C for some day or even -2°C/-3°C for some nights with daytime highs up to 7°C. Some predict lots of sun and clear skies and some foggy and cloudy but dry conditions. It's really getting turbulent for the last couple of days of winter.

  

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So this is a syagrus that has been growing against a south facing wall in outer London since 2016. Planted as a young plant this picture is what it looked like in 2021 when it was replanted. I had to cut the picture for privacy reasons.

The 5 fronds seem healthy green but somewhat stretched and not a full crow yet. Max nr of new fronds over the years was 2. The fronds were not protected. The ones in an open position in the lawn grew 1 frond per season. A comparison with one in central London would be great.

93C31F43-BCA5-4376-961F-82304AA5FD6D.jpeg

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10 hours ago, Banana Belt said:

1486378874_2022Oct.thumb.JPG.d7cb2335d25ac204edd5c632fabe1f7e.JPG.7b443ff4255dae500b299abca03c9774.JPG

Those things are m a s s i v e

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Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 1 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 4 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 2 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 9 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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2 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

So this is a syagrus that has been growing against a south facing wall in outer London since 2016. Planted as a young plant this picture is what it looked like in 2021 when it was replanted. I had to cut the picture for privacy reasons.

The 5 fronds seem healthy green but somewhat stretched and not a full crow yet. Max nr of new fronds over the years was 2. The fronds were not protected. The ones in an open position in the lawn grew 1 frond per season. A comparison with one in central London would be great.

93C31F43-BCA5-4376-961F-82304AA5FD6D.jpeg

6 to 7 years in the ground and still looks like a $90 syagrus romanzoffiana in a pot at our local nursery with less than half a crown.  That's what I'm saying those Queens up there don't reach the heights and crowns nearly as fast as down here they struggle to grow ,that's like me trying to plant Royals in San Antonio,TX  having a decade of mild winters claiming they do well here. No they wont. There's always a reality check for everyone on its way sooner or later. Climate is unpredictable, the next 30 years of average can be different from the last 30 years.  I'm not looking for my locations best data on the internet.  San Antonio gets 2600 to 2900 hrs of sunshine a year  with 8 to 9 months of constant heat (80 to over 100)enough heat for Queens to bounce back after an occasional freeze in no time.  Just because England shares some of the characteristics of a subtropical climate zone doesn't mean it is one. Look what happened in Texas Feb 2021 it didn't get that cold since mid 1980s.  The freezes in England in the past within 200 years lasted a lot longer . Every Queen palm would die because they don't like freezes that last for weeks.  I'm not saying you shouldn't try plant one my message out there since I commented here there's no comparison for long term survival /growth rate , let's say 30 plus year ,between growing a Queen in London,  England or Tampa,Florida.  People always get to comfortable when they experience 15 to 20 years of milder winters but I'll let you believe that England becomes a tropical island . 

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@MarcusH That is the issue though, we don't even have access to big palms and barely any Queens whatsoever, unless we can get seeds really. You guys in Texas can go to local garden stores and buy big palms and have many different types to choose from. Stuff gets easily shipped to you from California or Florida too. So straight off the bat we are handicapped over here when it comes to availability. The first commercial shipments of CIDP didn't even start reaching the UK properly until the late 90's. Since Brexit it has got even harder as European suppliers will not even ship to the UK anymore now either. I have spent 3 years just trying to get a Mule (Butia x Syagrus) or a Jubaea x Syagrus. It's almost impossible here. Just like how it impossible to get hold of any Sabals. Nowhere sells them, even online (European suppliers won't ship here) and the only option is seeds, but I can't even get hold of that.

I actually haven't seen a CIDP at any of my local garden centres for well over a year now and certainly no Washingtonia. I don't think you quite understand the whole issue with availability over here. The fact we have managed to grow as many big CIDP's and Washingtonia over here with such limited availability/stock (we had nothing 25 years ago), is further testament to how well we have done with palms in southern England. So you can just sit down pal. We had a very late start and are clearly playing catch up, but we still don't have access to that much at present and haven't been able to properly get things established in places. If they were selling Queens, Kings, Rhopalostylis, Sabals etc in stores, there is no doubt more of them would be established in London, Isle of Wight, Torquay, Cornwall etc. Clearly this is a massive factor that hinders us and something you don't acknowledge. People say Sabals won't grow here just because there are none available and they haven't been properly tried in places.

That Queen Axel posted was planted at like 1 foot in height and was dug up and replanted again too for some reason. Obviously it isn't going to be a 25 foot beast yet. Its true that the climate is marginal but on top of that we have to go with small, less hardy palms from the get-go and wait patiently for them to grow. Unlike you guys that can just go down to your local home depot or whatever and pick up an 8 foot queen for $90. Assuming we could even buy a Queen that size, we would be paying like $300-400. Also you talk about freezes of the past 200 years killing all the palms here (not true) and Queens not standing a chance either, yet Ventnor on the Isle of Wight has an all-time record low of -6.5C / 20F dating back to 1850. San Antonio in comparison had -13C / 9F as recently as February 2021. So I don't think you are in a position to be making judgements on what survives here compared to where you are. The CIDP growing along the entire south coast of England absolutely slaughter anything growing in San Antonio. Even the colder north London suburbs have FAR better CIDP than San Antonio.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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Stop this my climate is better than yours please. Stop the subtropical definitions and the theoretical possibilities. 

Just post pictures and streetview links to show what a palm can do in a given location.  

The Santa catarina and parana queens imported by Nigel in substantial numbers and planted by palmpeople in various locations in the UK are all gone. Lets see if we can come up with some other examples and see how they have grown, for a number of years in the ground, not in a pot. 

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31 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Stop this my climate is better than yours please. Stop the subtropical definitions and the theoretical possibilities. 

Just post pictures and streetview links to show what a palm can do in a given location.  

The Santa catarina and parana queens imported by Nigel in substantial numbers and planted by palmpeople in various locations in the UK are all gone. Lets see if we can come up with some other examples and see how they have grown, for a number of years in the ground, not in a pot. 

 

What you mean the Santa Catarina queens that went to people in central England near Oxfordshire, or the frost hollows of mid-Kent and even Wales? It's hardly surprising they didn't survive there. I think a few went to inland regions of Cornwall, but certainly not in the more protected, better areas near the southwest coast, where they would clearly grow the best. There really wasn't that many either, so the probability of one getting established somewhere was fairly low. You imply that loads went out to the best, most favourable areas and failed, which wasn't the case. I think ones that were sent out by Nigel got hit by the freak winter of 2010 with record breaking December cold as well, so the timing was unfortunate for any young ones getting established too. That certainly didn't help them around that time.

Have any Queens ever been tried at Ventnor, say at the Botanic Gardens? I seriously doubt it. Just like how I doubt any have been tried in Portland, Torquay, Salcombe, Falmouth etc. I'm not convinced anyone has really ever tried them in central London either, apart from maybe Fox Palms. So they haven't really been tested properly at all. The fact we can't even find pictures of any, even recently planted small ones, tells you just how rare and untested they actually are, otherwise we would be seeing pictures of all these prospective, trial plantings - which we just aren't seeing. The exact same goes for species like Sabal as well over here. There is a reason why we don't even have images of small Sabal's really being planted and tried. Lack of availability being the main reason, but also a lack of adequate planting/testing in the most favourable areas. I will die on that hill as well.

Edited by UK_Palms

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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16 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

Wow that's crazy! Didn't think there would be any of them in this area.

If you return to Bilbao, don´t miss this Archontophoenix alexandrae. I hope it will set seeds in 5 years´ time.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.26716,-2.9277113,3a,19.3y,23.52h,95.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swis3QjXD81cQFjaD8jKiDQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Not far away there´s a nice Kentia with seeds almost all year round.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3245985,-3.0111009,3a,20.6y,131.44h,96.55t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1so5vV249eSBUgy2rBqEo2Xg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Do5vV249eSBUgy2rBqEo2Xg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D128.28503%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

In Santander there´s still this Kentia with seeds too.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4741525,-3.7879901,3a,34y,303.67h,102.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdaOASGObBXiePyPqIdn0jA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I have just found out that this one didn´t make it.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4594872,-3.8316518,3a,75y,358.83h,99.32t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfftTdBsCrZB63M4bOxWfMw!2e0!5s20140601T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Today

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.459484,-3.8316427,3a,75y,358.83h,99.32t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s1PM-GNM1GYZ8NX9_rGUm1Q!2e0!5s20221201T000000!7i16384!8i8192

In La Coruña you can find the oldest and tallest Kentias in northern Spain here.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3665114,-8.4044769,3a,75y,106.8h,96.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8VCGY86T2SbpKg22jHN0sw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

And in Vigo this one is still alive.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2340447,-8.7153632,3a,19.4y,209.05h,117.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syL2_2umKNCGZqIwbxrwp4A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

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10 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

I am not getting into these climate comparisons. 

Regarding growing conditions for queens in the UK: there are currently no longer term survivor stories/pictures of queens in the UK, except for a few in the London area (8 years max).

They have been tried elsewhere in the UK and failed, no matter how how much climate data or pictures of CIDP’s and washies we collect of these mild places, they still failed also there. 

So there are some queens that survive in the larger London area’s and do 1 to 2 full fronds per year. Foxpalms lives in the warmest area of London so no doubt your queens will also survive winter and keep growing. You said the queens in your garden grow more than 2 fronds. Its possible but from the last picture i have seen i couldnt figure out what the crown looked like. Can you post pictures of both your queens and tell us about the date of planting or perhaps post a picture of the original planting? I am really interested in these observations.

 

When I get back I will take a photo for you. Do you know what size that other one in London was when it was planted? With regards to the climate comparison thing I was just trying to point out the data online for London is outdated and not even from central London, since that's what shady Dan was using, but it doesn't really matter which place has warmer summer highs. @MarcusH Personally I've never claimed London is a subtropical climate and obviously queen's will grow better in Houston, but from my experience growing them here the are fairly easy and grow fine even if it's slower than Houston. Brookings has cooler summers than here and so does the bay area of San Francisco and they do well there, so as UK palms points out I think it's more the fact there hasn't been too many tried. At least for central London. We also haven't had a mild run of winters in the last 10 years this winter was awful, 2018 and 2010 were as well. However most winters are getting milder here what and causes these bad winters every few years are winds bringing cold air masses for multiple days, it's not common here in the UK either thats why it only happens every few years.  We had our coldest winter night since the 80s and the low here was only 28f and some parts in the city of London didn't go below 30f. The difference here is everyday rose above freezing and despite having the coldest winter night since the 80s my low was still higher than South padre islands this winter to put it into perspective. South padre Island had a cold winter this year but London has also had an awful winter so I'd say that's a fair comparison. The summers here are only getting warmer which was my point and even hypothetically a winter low that breaks the record here still isn't as cold as Houston has gotten this winter and especially during the 2021 freeze.

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5 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

 

What you mean the Santa Catarina queens that went to people in central England near Oxfordshire, or the frost hollows of mid-Kent and even Wales? It's hardly surprising they didn't survive there. I think a few went to inland regions of Cornwall, but certainly not in the more protected, better areas near the southwest coast, where they would clearly grow the best. There really wasn't that many either, so the probability of one getting established somewhere was fairly low. You imply that loads went out to the best, most favourable areas and failed, which wasn't the case. I think ones that were sent out by Nigel got hit by the freak winter of 2010 with record breaking December cold as well, so the timing was unfortunate for any young ones getting established too. That certainly didn't help them around that time.

Have any Queens ever been tried at Ventnor, say at the Botanic Gardens? I seriously doubt it. Just like how I doubt any have been tried in Portland, Torquay, Salcombe, Falmouth etc. I'm not convinced anyone has really ever tried them in central London either, apart from maybe Fox Palms. 

They have been tried in Torquay, Weymouth, Southampton and Portsmouth, but i will leave it at that because you are in the mood to discount these experiences. I will wait for the pictures of the ones in central London.

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10 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

 

What you mean the Santa Catarina queens that went to people in central England near Oxfordshire, or the frost hollows of mid-Kent and even Wales? It's hardly surprising they didn't survive there. I think a few went to inland regions of Cornwall, but certainly not in the more protected, better areas near the southwest coast, where they would clearly grow the best. There really wasn't that many either, so the probability of one getting established somewhere was fairly low. You imply that loads went out to the best, most favourable areas and failed, which wasn't the case. I think ones that were sent out by Nigel got hit by the freak winter of 2010 with record breaking December cold as well, so the timing was unfortunate for any young ones getting established too. That certainly didn't help them around that time.

Have any Queens ever been tried at Ventnor, say at the Botanic Gardens? I seriously doubt it. Just like how I doubt any have been tried in Portland, Torquay, Salcombe, Falmouth etc. I'm not convinced anyone has really ever tried them in central London either, apart from maybe Fox Palms. So they haven't really been tested properly at all. The fact we can't even find pictures of any, even recently planted small ones, tells you just how rare and untested they actually are, otherwise we would be seeing pictures of all these prospective, trial plantings - which we just aren't seeing. The exact same goes for species like Sabal as well over here. There is a reason why we don't even have images of small Sabal's really being planted and tried. Lack of availability being the main reason, but also a lack of adequate planting/testing in the most favourable areas. I will die on that hill as well.

I have to agree there wasn't many, they sold out extremely fast. I was in the canary islands when some more were in stock and in the time I walked back from the coconuts on the beach to the hotel room they had sold out. Can't remember where, but I saw photos of one looking good on the southern Welsh coast which obviously is cooler than the south coast of England. Personally I don't know anyone else who has tried them in central London expect possibly one person. I was watching a YouTube video and someone else who claimed to be in central London in the comments said they grew queen palms.  I'm not sure about Guilford but in London this summer I saw lots of CIDPs and Washingtonia for sale. I also saw quite a lot of cacti and arid plants and citrus for sale.  One garden center even had a large Norfolk Island pine 8ft+ at least.  I did see some queen's for sale in 2 places a plant nursery and one garden center but they are still very hard to find in the UK. What is almost impossible to find for sale though are crownshafted palms I've had to look very hard to find the ones for sale that I did. As far as I'm aware none have been tried on the Scilly isles or anywhere on the isle of wight. Very few have been tried in costal Cornwall most growers there seem to be inland slightly.

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45 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

They have been tried in Torquay, Weymouth, Southampton and Portsmouth, but i will leave it at that because you are in the mood to discount these experiences. I will wait for the pictures of the ones in central London.

Ive heard about a few of them failing but I've never seen any photos of them and the growers never said what killed them. Do you happen to know what the soil they were planted in was?  Another thing to consider is even a few miles inland in places such as Southampton and Bournemouth it's quite a bit colder and less mild during the winter. I know the grower in southsea though was likely in a mild spot so I doubt cold was the issue for that particular one. It just confuses me how people struggle with them and here they are easy. For here I'm going to try things such as Beccariophoenix alfredii because a queen palm isn't a challenge to grow it's an easy palm, even if it grows slower than it does in the subtropics. The information about the one in Southampton is talking about it struggling after the 2010 winter and the following summers not being particularly hot so it only grew 2 fronds. I can't find the part where they said it died. Only them thinking about digging it up.

Edited by Foxpalms
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They all without exception commented on the fact that they didnt grow. No comments on the soil.

I was also not convinced and bought a queen with over 2 meters of trunk and a good rootball. I protected the trunk with a heating cable during cold winternights so it survived without a problem. It was very slow during spring and really needed the extra heat around the trunk. Ofcourse this is Amsterdam and not central London, but Amsterdam summers are fairly warm compared to the extreme coastal locations in the UK so i was not surprised by their experiences. 

As always, everything could be different in central London with their green howeas outside. I strongly hope queens will flourish there. I simply have my doubts about the extremely mild coastal locations.

Edited by Axel Amsterdam
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15 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

They all without exception commented on the fact that they didnt grow. No comments on the soil.

I was also not convinced and bought a queen with over 2 meters of trunk and a good rootball. I protected the trunk with a heating cable during cold winternights so it survived without a problem. It was very slow during spring and really needed the extra heat around the trunk. Ofcourse this is Amsterdam and not central London, but Amsterdam summers are fairly warm compared to the extreme coastal locations in the UK so i was not surprised by their experiences. 

As always, everything could be different in central London with their green howeas outside. I strongly hope queens will flourish there. I simply have my doubts about the extremely mild coastal locations.

I personally have my doubts that one would  grow well on the scilly isles because the summers are cool but I still think they need to be tried and with places such as Brookings able to grow them they might work. Ventnor is another place they stand a good chance at working there's no official station there so again the info on websites online is taken from Shanklin not even ventnor. But the large hills mean it only gets winds from the south there and it's all on a south facing slope means it can get a good amount of warmth. The town it's self is even warmer than the botanical gardens there so they should be tried in both locations. Cold will never be an issue there since it's zone 10a. There is luckily a wundergound station there though and during the summer it looked fairly warm. The one in lamorran gardens experiences cooler summers than the south coast so it will be interesting to see how much that grows. It does get quite a bit warmer here than the south coast in the summer during the day and at night so it would make sense they grow faster here.

Edited by Foxpalms
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I peruse the real estate listing for Brookings from time to time and you will see some queen palms in the photos of homes for sale, plus other exotics.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/233-Wharf-St_Brookings_OR_97415_M90414-59763

If you look closely you will see the two big feather palms.  Street view of the neighbors place circa May 2015

 

brookings.JPG

Edited by Chester B
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1 hour ago, Foxpalms said:

Brookings has cooler summers than here and so does the bay area of San Francisco and they do well there

"The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco."   Mark Twain  

When sea water that has been sitting on the Abyssal Plain of the Pacific at -18,000 feet and more for 70 years or so, and is constantly rising to the surface along the North American slope, it is like an Atmospheric refrigeration unit that never turns off.  Hot air from off the continent has to have hurricane strength in order to push that cold mass of air away from the coast, otherwise it just rides up and over the dense cold fog. 

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2 minutes ago, Chester B said:

I peruse the real estate listing for Brookings from time to time and you will see some queen palms in the photos of homes for sale, plus other exotics.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/233-Wharf-St_Brookings_OR_97415_M90414-59763

If you look closely you will see the two big feather palms.  Street view of the neighbors place circa May 2015

 

brookings.JPG

 

2 minutes ago, Chester B said:

If you look closely you will see the two big feather palms.  Street view of the neighbors place circa May 2015

The Palm on the right is a Queen, and the owner tells me the small palm on left is a King.  I am not familiar with King Palms, so would not know.

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2 minutes ago, Banana Belt said:

 

The Palm on the right is a Queen, and the owner tells me the small palm on left is a King.  I am not familiar with King Palms, so would not know.

Bingo

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2 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

They have been tried in Torquay, Weymouth, Southampton and Portsmouth, but i will leave it at that because you are in the mood to discount these experiences. I will wait for the pictures of the ones in central London.

 

I am not discounting any said experiences, but it would help to have a source, or pictures or something to reference. Any information seems sketchy at best. All I know is that quite a few were sent out to hopeful growers in less than favourable locations, and then the bad 2010 freeze also unfortunately hit before they got established. That was just bad luck though. All I know is that the Queens were not utilised in the best locations possible at the end of the day and certainly not the top 5-6 best places for instance.

Most favourable places for marginal exotics in order, mostly due to absence of frost, but also high average annual temps (approximate)...

1.) Isles of Scilly, Cornwall

2.) Falmouth and St Mawes, Cornwall

3.) Porthcurno and St Loy's Cove, Cornwall

4.) Mevagissey and Gorran Haven, Cornwall

5.) Ventnor, Isle of Wight

6.) Central London

7.) Salcome, Devon

8.) Torquay - Paignton - Brixham area, Dorset

9.) Portland, Dorset

10.) Southsea (Portsmouth), Hampshire

 

There are coves and bays in southwest Cornwall that benefit from katabatic winds and Foehn effect. St Loys Cove supposedly reached 37C / 99F last July when nearby Penzance was only 30C / 85F and they had some nights around 25C / 77F due to this phenomena as well. So there are certainly microclimates within microclimates in the valleys down there that nobody has really studied or talked about. Places that would be ideal candidates for Syagrus, Archontophoenix, Rhopalostylis etc, especially with a bit of overhead cover from trees.

Coverack in southwest Cornwall is another spot as well, which is sheltered by hills to the north and could actually be the warmest place in the whole of the UK by average temperature along with St Loys. The nearest official Met station is like 6 miles away and further inland from the village of Coverack. There is no way Queens have been tried in the better microclimates of southwest Cornwall. Mevagissey and Gorran Haven are another potential area as well and the village of Lizzard. I could name a few more places.

During the 2 bad freezes in December and January, these 4 locations I mentioned likely remained frost free at the coast along with places like Falmouth and Porthcurno. Daytime temps in January can rise above 16C / 60F as well with foehn/katabatic influence in some of those places, such as St Loys Cove and Coverack. I have seen photos of lemon and orange trees producing enormous harvests in those areas. The UV level can also just reach 9 in those southern regions as well during late June - early July, although 8 is more common. Certainly higher UV than say London.

Edited by UK_Palms

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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8 minutes ago, Banana Belt said:

 

The Palm on the right is a Queen, and the owner tells me the small palm on left is a King.  I am not familiar with King Palms, so would not know.

What I have noticed is kings don't seem to like the costal winds that much. The ones in costal Cornwall are in very protected spots though so you don't see any damage from salty costal winds.

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1 hour ago, Foxpalms said:

Ive heard about a few of them failing but I've never seen any photos of them and the growers never said what killed them. Do you happen to know what the soil they were planted in was?  Another thing to consider is even a few miles inland in places such as Southampton and Bournemouth it's quite a bit colder and less mild during the winter. I know the grower in southsea though was likely in a mild spot so I doubt cold was the issue for that particular one. It just confuses me how people struggle with them and here they are easy. For here I'm going to try things such as Beccariophoenix alfredii because a queen palm isn't a challenge to grow it's an easy palm, even if it grows slower than it does in the subtropics. The information about the one in Southampton is talking about it struggling after the 2010 winter and the following summers not being particularly hot so it only grew 2 fronds. I can't find the part where they said it died. Only them thinking about digging it up.

I think it was asked before: How long has your queen palm been in the ground? At what size was it planted? How much has it grown? 

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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@UK_PalmsThat's what I noticed with ventnor,it seems to be warmer than nearby costal locations on the isle of wight due to the massive hills surrounding the area sometimes causing the foehn effect. The costal areas around lizard the only part of mainland UK at 49N I image would be very mild too considering it's a peninsula. St Michael's mount would also be an ideal location, on the mainland near the car park there that's where I planted an archontophoenix cunninghamiana. 

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