Jump to content
  • WELCOME GUEST

    It looks as if you are viewing PalmTalk as an unregistered Guest.

    Please consider registering so as to take better advantage of our vast knowledge base and friendly community.  By registering you will gain access to many features - among them are our powerful Search feature, the ability to Private Message other Users, and be able to post and/or answer questions from all over the world. It is completely free, no “catches,” and you will have complete control over how you wish to use this site.

    PalmTalk is sponsored by the International Palm Society. - an organization dedicated to learning everything about and enjoying palm trees (and their companion plants) while conserving endangered palm species and habitat worldwide. Please take the time to know us all better and register.

    guest Renda04.jpg

Polar Vortex 2022...... who's ready?


Sabal King

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, MarcusH said:

England is cool and mild for the most part of the year with only brief summers with occasional heat waves kind of the same climate as the PNW.

I'm sorry but I have to correct this, it all depends on what part of the PNW you are in, its a large area.  PNW encompasses some of British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, Idaho and parts of Montana.  Much of it is actually cold and dry being composed of grasslands, mountainous regions, high desert and actual desert.  It's hard to generalize over such a large area.  Only a very small area would be considered similar to the UK.   The coastal communities in WA, BC and OR would be the closest to the UK as they have much cooler temps in summer compared to inland areas.  However there can be a large differential or multiplier of the amount of sunshine hours per year.  And these areas are only a small fraction of what makes up the PNW.  There is a common misconception of what it is like here, and I was guilty of that too before I started living here.

Summers/Fall are totally different at my location than the UK, what is considered a heat wave in the UK is typical weather here, never mind we get about 2x the annual sunshine hours.  Our winters and spring are similar so I would give you about 50% of the year.  Just like California, as you move inland the temps rise.  San Francisco is often foggy and cool but once you get close to Stockton or Sacramento the temps increase dramatically.  

The UK around London is considered a humid temperate oceanic climate, which aligns with many of our coastal communities.  Once you get inland a bit most of Western Oregon falls under warm-summer mediterranean climate and further down it is hot-summer mediterranean climate.  

Sorry but I keep seeing the people compare to the two regions and I feel the need to clarify.  It's like saying Florida and California are the same because they stay warm in winter.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, MarcusH said:

I get your message but England or any country in the northern hemisphere above 40° N isn't subtropical.  You can't just look at the low temperature.  Subtropical climate is hot and humid with mild to cool winter "average " . There're exceptions !  My question do you see Foxtails , Royals or even coconut palms growing in the warmest part of England unprotected?  I don't think so.  England has a humid temperature oceanic climate (cfb) . If you look at Kentia they do grow at certain places in England apparently but prefer no hot summers.  Some palms can adopt to colder climate as long as it doesn't get too cold but most palms like it hot for best growth .Just because certain palms grow here in Texas doesn't mean it's the tropics.  You can be lucky to see certain palms in England because i didn't see any of them growing in Germany while I lived there most of my life.  It's not a competition or something .  It only takes one big event to take most palms out in England and those that surivive will struggle to recover because spring , fall and winter are just too cold for a speedy recovery.  Are there any palms that are 50 to 100 years old ? It's zone pushing at its best just like I do I just chose to plant the least cold hardy palm in my yard.  It will survive but for how long ? The good thing is you get light freezes if any on average.  Growing palms is our hobby . In our yard we can do a lot to protect sensitive palms to keep them alive but none native palms will struggle from time to time or even die at the end . 

 

First of all, I obviously wasn't saying that England in general is subtropical. Far from it. We all know that the UK in general is temperate/oceanic, although there is a clear argument for southeast regions (including London) being borderline Mediterranean nowadays. I was laughed at for saying this 2-3 years ago, then last summer of course had less rain than many parts of California with some places registering 0.0mm for July. Some places only saw about 0.7 inches across all 3 summer months. The climate in southern England is a bit more complex than it just being standard oceanic/temperate across the board. Like there is a clear difference between the far southwest and far southeast of England.

Regarding the Isles of Scilly, they technically aren't humid subtropical as they do not meet the definition of having an average summer temperature above 22C / 72F. However it is somewhat misleading as NYC technically meets the subtropical criteria, despite the fact that you cannot even grow a Trachycarpus Fortunei in NYC outside of the immediate coastal area on say Long Beach. Even there they probably won't be long term with freezes wiping them out every 20 years or so. Clearly the Isles of Scilly are more tropical-like than NYC in that they are generally frost-free and can grow wide range of subtropical fauna, despite the lack of proper summer heat. Going by that metric alone, I would say that places like Tresco are 'temperate subtropical', even though that that isn't a technical term. We'll have to agree to disagree on this however.

Also I have posted photos of 50+ year old Phoenix Canariensis on the UK mainland before. This one for instance would have survived the brutal freezes of 1963, 1987 and 2010 back when it was much smaller. I certainly wouldn't be making comparisons between Germany and England when it comes to palm growing potential. I don't think there is a single, long-term or mature CIDP anywhere in Germany. You say that it will only take one event to wipe out most of the UK ones, yet this one has clearly survived the test of time. Not to mention this winter we have had 2 very bad freezes with the coldest temperatures in London for 3-4 decades. The mature CIDP at least are pretty much bulletproof in many areas on the mainland now.

301311901_10159040863242201_6267761959413599585_n-1.thumb.jpg.c88fdcb2dc5cf436dbc137614331fbc7.jpg

301405328_10159040857162201_9151968628471157132_n-1.thumb.jpg.5b0178a39396e63b6b3d0b269eee8f8b.jpg

 

Edited by UK_Palms
  • Like 2

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Chester B said:

I'm sorry but I have to correct this, it all depends on what part of the PNW you are in, its a large area.  PNW encompasses some of British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, Idaho and parts of Montana.  Much of it is actually cold and dry being composed of grasslands, mountainous regions, high desert and actual desert.  It's hard to generalize over such a large area.  Only a very small area would be considered similar to the UK.   The coastal communities in WA, BC and OR would be the closest to the UK as they have much cooler temps in summer compared to inland areas.  However there can be a large differential or multiplier of the amount of sunshine hours per year.  And these areas are only a small fraction of what makes up the PNW.  There is a common misconception of what it is like here, and I was guilty of that too before I started living here.

Summers/Fall are totally different at my location than the UK, what is considered a heat wave in the UK is typical weather here, never mind we get about 2x the annual sunshine hours.  Our winters and spring are similar so I would give you about 50% of the year.  Just like California, as you move inland the temps rise.  San Francisco is often foggy and cool but once you get close to Stockton or Sacramento the temps increase dramatically.  

The UK around London is considered a humid temperate oceanic climate, which aligns with many of our coastal communities.  Once you get inland a bit most of Western Oregon falls under warm-summer mediterranean climate and further down it is hot-summer mediterranean climate.  

Sorry but I keep seeing the people compare to the two regions and I feel the need to clarify.  It's like saying Florida and California are the same because they stay warm in winter.

I understand your need of clarification I'm sorry I should have said coastal areas of the PNW that's where most people live I thought most people know what I'm saying but overall I'm right about comparing major cities like Portland, Seattle and Vancouver and their wet mild cold climate to England 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

I understand your need of clarification I'm sorry I should have said coastal areas of the PNW that's where most people live I thought most people know what I'm saying but overall I'm right about comparing major cities like Portland, Seattle and Vancouver and their wet mild cold climate to England 

You are generalising places again. The whole of the PNW and the whole of England are not the same. There are distinctly different climates, microclimates and zones within each of these areas with varying amounts of winter cold, summer heat, sunshine hours, rainfall etc. They can't just be lumped together as one and compared. Some parts of southeast England average over 2,000 hours of sunshine for instance.

Also London receives less rainfall than places like Rome, Barcelona, Istanbul, Portland or Perth in Western Australia. Even San Francisco gets a bit more rain than London most years. So it isn't a "wet, cold" climate as you say. London has a cool, temperate climate with warm, dry summers these days. Also London gets significantly less rainfall than the global average. It is actually a fairly dry city overall. The far north of Scotland is "wet and cold" as you describe. That isn't true for the whole of England in general however.

Edited by UK_Palms

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you guys miss my point.  When I say most it doesn't mean all there's a difference.  We are talking about successfully growing syagrus romanzoffiana outside of the subtropical/mediterranean climate anywhere above 40°N . Even when temperatures are guaranteed to stay above 20F in England there's no way a Queen palm is going to be a happy camper because it doesn't get the energy from the sun to grow normally otherwise you would see them growing there too. Most NOT ALL non hardy palms love and only thrive in regions from latitude 35° down to 0°F .  They need the full exposure of strong UV-A rays.  Like I said it's not all about the cold hardiness it's about the heat and sun that's responsible for growth.  Does that make sense ? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you want me to take a map and localise every place in England where certain palms can grow I think that would be too much to ask from me. I'm talking about places wherever palms can grow in England or the PNW wherever they don't grow in those regions is not even a topic . You make it more complicated than it is .  Common sense 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Latitu

14 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

I think you guys miss my point.  When I say most it doesn't mean all there's a difference.  We are talking about successfully growing syagrus romanzoffiana outside of the subtropical/mediterranean climate anywhere above 40°N . Even when temperatures are guaranteed to stay above 20F in England there's no way a Queen palm is going to be a happy camper because it doesn't get the energy from the sun to grow normally otherwise you would see them growing there too. Most NOT ALL non hardy palms love and only thrive in regions from latitude 35° down to 0°F .  They need the full exposure of strong UV-A rays.  Like I said it's not all about the cold hardiness it's about the heat and sun that's responsible for growth.  Does that make sense ? 

Makes sense, I get what you’re saying. 
 

Not to nitpick but there are fully mature queens and other species down in the SW corner of the state. These may be the exception to the rule. 
 


 

 

Edited by Chester B
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Picking small regions is too complicated and time consuming .  We don't all share them same temperature within a 20 mile range,  elevation,  topographic changes within a short distance but overall Dallas and South Padre Island is subtropical.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Latitu

Makes sense, I get what you’re saying. 
 

Not to nitpick but there are fully mature queens and other species down in the SW corner of the state. These may be the exception to the rule. 
 


 

 

If you're talking about SW Oregon I would believe you that there might be some places where you can grow Queens , I don't know what they look like or how long it took to reach mature heights of 50ft . Everything father north I would have a hard time believing that you can succefully grow Queens. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

I think you guys miss my point.  When I say most it doesn't mean all there's a difference.  We are talking about successfully growing syagrus romanzoffiana outside of the subtropical/mediterranean climate anywhere above 40°N . Even when temperatures are guaranteed to stay above 20F in England there's no way a Queen palm is going to be a happy camper because it doesn't get the energy from the sun to grow normally otherwise you would see them growing there too. Most NOT ALL non hardy palms love and only thrive in regions from latitude 35° down to 0°F .  They need the full exposure of strong UV-A rays.  Like I said it's not all about the cold hardiness it's about the heat and sun that's responsible for growth.  Does that make sense ? 

I'm pretty sure @Foxpalms has a decent sized Queen growing in his London back yard, unless it is a hybrid with Butia/Jubaea. They will do okay in central London microclimate where they get the summer heat and minimal cold exposure to knock them back. I think they will also grow in places like Ventnor, Torquay, Falmouth etc, where they don't get that much summer warmth. Queens haven't been adequately trialled in many places, or specific microclimates. They are fairly hard to get hold of here and wouldn't have been tried in many places.

 

7 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

Picking small regions is too complicated and time consuming .  We don't all share them same temperature within a 20 mile range,  elevation,  topographic changes within a short distance but overall Dallas and South Padre Island is subtropical.  

Sure, Dallas is subtropical by definition, although that is almost laughable since they saw 0F in February 2021 and what 5-10F this December just gone? It's kind of an oxymoron, similar to saying New York City is subtropical, just because they meet the summer warmth criteria. How many truly subtropical plants/palms actually grow in Dallas? Zilch. You couldn't even get a large Rhopalostylis Sapida through an average winter there.

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oceanic climates can be quite dry. London and Canberra are both good examples. It probably depends on evaporation as well as precipitation.

Philip Wright

Sydney southern suburbs

Frost-free within 20 km of coast

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

 

Also I have posted photos of 50+ year old Phoenix Canariensis on the UK mainland before. This one for instance would have survived the brutal freezes of 1963, 1987 and 2010 back when it was much smaller. I certainly wouldn't be making comparisons between Germany and England when it comes to palm growing potential. I don't think there is a single, long-term or mature CIDP anywhere in Germany. You say that it will only take one event to wipe out most of the UK ones, yet this one has clearly survived the test of time. Not to mention this winter we have had 2 very bad freezes with the coldest temperatures in London for 3-4 decades. The mature CIDP at least are pretty much bulletproof in many areas on the mainland now.

301311901_10159040863242201_6267761959413599585_n-1.thumb.jpg.c88fdcb2dc5cf436dbc137614331fbc7.jpg

301405328_10159040857162201_9151968628471157132_n-1.thumb.jpg.5b0178a39396e63b6b3d0b269eee8f8b.jpg

 

Ben, this is the famous torquay CIDP, it survived because Torquay has been one of the mildest spots in the UK since a long time. Are there more CIDP’s developing into large trees in coastal locations and London, absolutely. Will they survive a major freeze? Perhaps, we dont know for sure, the outskirts of London had dead CIDP’s in 2010. They are certainly not as hardy as in TX, because of the factors we discussed above. 

I have pointed out before that if CIDP’s were that hardy in Europe you would see large ones inland in France from the Mediterranean sea all the way to Lyon. Thats not the case. You will find the occasional CIDP in Avignon but thats as far as it goes, there are large area’s 20 km behind the seashore that are simply too cold even though they are really sunny in winter and hot in summer. There are even no CIDP’s in certain inland area’s of Spain. So for me the idea that they can survive major freezes is really not based on European experiences.

Edited by Axel Amsterdam
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Queen palms are hardy in zones 9b to 11 but will do fine in 8b if protected whenever it gets down to 20F .Queens love the heat , humidity and sun.  The sun intensity plays a huge role that's why it takes ages for the crown to grow back in your area. Most queen grow anywhere down from 35°N to the equator on the northern hemisphere.  There's no subtropical climate in England. 

There's no subtropical climate in England but we here in London are an oceanic climate transitioning to a Mediterranean climate and western Europe is supposedly warming 2-3x faster than the global average. The summers are getting hotter and hotter here. There are 9b-10b parts of the UK so plenty of areas queen palms won't even sustain winter damaged and whilst the summers are cooler than 35N they still grow fine here. Also Europe is a lot warmer than America for its latitude since Toulon France where royal palms can grow is the same latitude as nova Scotia Canada, 43N. I agree that queen palms like strong sun since they definitely grow faster during sunnier weeks in June July and August than a cloudier week even if it's the same temperature but I only find this with queen's not kings and especially not nikaus. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

I'm pretty sure @Foxpalms has a decent sized Queen growing in his London back yard, unless it is a hybrid with Butia/Jubaea. They will do okay in central London microclimate where they get the summer heat and minimal cold exposure to knock them back. I think they will also grow in places like Ventnor, Torquay, Falmouth etc, where they don't get that much summer warmth. Queens haven't been adequately trialled in many places, or specific microclimates. They are fairly hard to get hold of here and wouldn't have been tried in many places.

 

 

Sorry, but queens have been tried in large numbers by EPS members, they died and they didnt grow. Would they do better in London, probably yes, but we still have to see the first proof of a queen that grows more than 2 full fronds a year. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, MarcusH said:

I get your message but England or any country in the northern hemisphere above 40° N isn't subtropical.  You can't just look at the low temperature.  Subtropical climate is hot and humid with mild to cool winter "average " . There're exceptions !  My question do you see Foxtails , Royals or even coconut palms growing in the warmest part of England unprotected?  I don't think so.  England has a humid temperature oceanic climate (cfb) . If you look at Kentia they do grow at certain places in England apparently but prefer no hot summers.  Some palms can adopt to colder climate as long as it doesn't get too cold but most palms like it hot for best growth .Just because certain palms grow here in Texas doesn't mean it's the tropics.  You can be lucky to see certain palms in England because i didn't see any of them growing in Germany while I lived there most of my life.  It's not a competition or something .  It only takes one big event to take most palms out in England and those that surivive will struggle to recover because spring , fall and winter are just too cold for a speedy recovery.  Are there any palms that are 50 to 100 years old ? It's zone pushing at its best just like I do I just chose to plant the least cold hardy palm in my yard.  It will survive but for how long ? The good thing is you get light freezes if any on average.  Growing palms is our hobby . In our yard we can do a lot to protect sensitive palms to keep them alive but none native palms will struggle from time to time or even die at the end . 

Just saying new York, Virginia beach and Venice Italy are classed as subtropical and you don't see foxtails, coconuts or royal palms growing there but yes they get hot summers. I'd also say there's no way syagrus romanzoffianana is going to be taken out in southern Englands warmest parts they are pretty hardy. San Francisco grows plenty of queen palms and has cooler summers than London obviously the rest of the year is warmer there though but the summer highs and especially lows are lower there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

There's no subtropical climate in England but we here in London are an oceanic climate transitioning to a Mediterranean climate and western Europe is supposedly warming 2-3x faster than the global average. The summers are getting hotter and hotter here. There are 9b-10b parts of the UK so plenty of areas queen palms won't even sustain winter damaged and whilst the summers are cooler than 35N they still grow fine here. Also Europe is a lot warmer than America for its latitude since Toulon France where royal palms can grow is the same latitude as nova Scotia Canada, 43N. I agree that queen palms like strong sun since they definitely grow faster during sunnier weeks in June July and August than a cloudier week even if it's the same temperature but I only find this with queen's not kings and especially not nikaus. 

Thats interesting, do you mean Toulon actually has a royal palm? I have been following the french forum for years and never heard about it. I have also never seen a royal in Barcelona, the first Spanish one you will encounter is in Malaga to my knowledge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Just saying new York, Virginia beach and Venice Italy are classed as subtropical and you don't see foxtails, coconuts or royal palms growing there but yes they get hot summers. I'd also say there's no way syagrus romanzoffianana is going to be taken out in southern Englands warmest parts they are pretty hardy. San Francisco grows plenty of queen palms and has cooler summers than London obviously the rest of the year is warmer there though but the summer highs and especially lows are lower there.

They have been tried in Portsmouth and they didnt grow. The ones in San Francisco all the way up to Eureka would still see higher UV though.

Edited by Axel Amsterdam
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Factors such as elevation,  ocean current, precipitation,  geography in general effects climate pattern but as a general rule average temperatures (UV rays) increase towards the equator and this is important to determine what can be planted or shouldn't be planted for long term success.  Most palms love the heat ( that's where the AHS Heat Map and USDA Plant Hardiness Zone Map comes into play) and sunny weather but there're palms that don't like hot, humid weather .Some palms grow in shade but the majority of palms love to grow in mediterranean , subtropical or tropical climate where there's plenty of warm 🌞🌞🌞🌞.  My robusta probably grows 3 times faster than it would in Vancouver, BC . 

Regarding heat, Hawaii disagrees and heat loving palms thrive there.  Not because of heat(they lack that), but largely solar insolation. 

 

hawaii.jpg

heatzonemap.jpg

Edited by jwitt
Added USA map for reference
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think subtropical climate is a very irrelevant term in general. It doesn't say anything. To me it's like the term "winter hardy" or "cold hardy" or even "frost hardy" things that confuse or mislead people who are not very deep into exotic planting. One species that seems to love/need not only heat but solar radiation is Sabal for sure. Queens might need that as well but I'm not too sure because they grow a lot better in high latitudes in Europe than Sabal for example.

  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

If you're talking about SW Oregon I would believe you that there might be some places where you can grow Queens , I don't know what they look like or how long it took to reach mature heights of 50ft . Everything father north I would have a hard time believing that you can succefully grow Queens. 

I agree with you.  I have seen big queens there, but how long they took to get to that size I have no idea.  Coos Bay and south would be the areas that I think it would be possible.  North of that I have not seen any survive long term.

 

One other thing that I feel limits certain palms being grown here, which could tie in with what you are saying is to do with average daily temperature.  And by this I mean the average temperature over a 24 hour period.  In summer a 95F degree day here , is quite different than that of one in Texas or Florida.  Our nights are quite cool and it takes all day of slowly warming to hit that peak for about an hour, whereas as down south the nights are hotter and temps climb faster.  I'm just throwing out numbers, but a 95F day here we may average 75F over the 24 hour period, whereas in the south that daily average may be 85F.  On top of that I would also think our soil temperatures are cooler in summer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Chester B said:

 

The UK around London is considered a humid temperate oceanic climate, which aligns with many of our coastal communities.  Once you get inland a bit most of Western Oregon falls under warm-summer mediterranean climate and further down it is hot-summer mediterranean climate.  

London is inland and in the south east of the UK which is much more dry warm and less humid than the south west. If you look at the last 10 years it's definitely leaning more towards Mediterranean than oceanic. Since London's inland you can definitely feel the difference in the humidity here compared to the south coast which even though it's dry is definitely more humid, also the reason London is the only part of the UK able to grow phoenix dactylifera. I would say its definitely different to the majority of costal towns in Oregon because it's much less humid here and significantally drier. Cornwall however I'd say is like costal southern Oregon. The majority of the UK I'd say is cool but London and the towns west of London such as where UK palms is are warm to hot in the summer.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Factors such as elevation,  ocean current, precipitation,  geography in general effects climate pattern but as a general rule average temperatures (UV rays) increase towards the equator and this is important to determine what can be planted or shouldn't be planted for long term success.  Most palms love the heat ( that's where the AHS Heat Map and USDA Plant Hardiness Zone Map comes into play) and sunny weather but there're palms that don't like hot, humid weather .Some palms grow in shade but the majority of palms love to grow in mediterranean , subtropical or tropical climate where there's plenty of warm 🌞🌞🌞🌞.  My robusta probably grows 3 times faster than it would in Vancouver, BC . 

How fast do your robustas grow? From everything I've read and seen so far Washingtonias seem to grow almost as fast for me as they do in the South West of the US. I think this might be true because the biggest variety of palms comes from regions close to the equator BUT about the most commonly planted palms I'm not so sure. Last year I noticed that many of my palms (and even other exotic plants) increased their growth in late summer/early autmn. It looked like they appreciated the somewhat cooler temperatures combined with some rain.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Thats interesting, do you mean Toulon actually has a royal palm? I have been following the french forum for years and never heard about it. I have also never seen a royal in Barcelona, the first Spanish one you will encounter is in Malaga to my knowledge.

Have friends who live in Barcelona and have a royal palm unfortunately I don't have any photos of their garden. They also have a Bismarckia, dracaena marginata and Beccariophoenix. I think part of the problem is royal palms aren't sold in the nurseries around Barcelona. I have seen a few but they are far from common, but I think this has nothing to do with the fact they can't grow since Barcelona is very warm for its latitude of 41N.  

Screenshot_20230202-205032338 (1).jpg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

London is inland and in the south east of the UK which is much more dry warm and less humid than the south west. If you look at the last 10 years it's definitely leaning more towards Mediterranean than oceanic. Since London's inland you can definitely feel the difference in the humidity here compared to the south coast which even though it's dry is definitely more humid, also the reason London is the only part of the UK able to grow phoenix dactylifera. I would say its definitely different to the majority of costal towns in Oregon because it's much less humid here and significantally drier. Cornwall however I'd say is like costal southern Oregon. The majority of the UK I'd say is cool but London and the towns west of London such as where UK palms is are warm to hot in the summer.

I know that people don't like the constant talk about UHI and that but big cities also have a huge impact on humidity. You feel it in summer even when weather and air are pretty dry. You just need to go somewhere with a larger piece of nature and you feel how much cooler and humid it is. Also our summers are not the summers we had 20-30 years ago anymore.

  • Like 1

  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

I'm pretty sure @Foxpalms has a decent sized Queen growing in his London back yard, unless it is a hybrid with Butia/Jubaea. They will do okay in central London microclimate where they get the summer heat and minimal cold exposure to knock them back. I think they will also grow in places like Ventnor, Torquay, Falmouth etc, where they don't get that much summer warmth. Queens haven't been adequately trialled in many places, or specific microclimates. They are fairly hard to get hold of here and wouldn't have been tried in many places.

 

Sure, Dallas is subtropical by definition, although that is almost laughable since they saw 0F in February 2021 and what 5-10F this December just gone? It's kind of an oxymoron, similar to saying New York City is subtropical, just because they meet the summer warmth criteria. How many truly subtropical plants/palms actually grow in Dallas? Zilch. You couldn't even get a large Rhopalostylis Sapida through an average winter there.

I have 2 syagrus romanzoffianana in ground a 13ft one and a smaller 6ft one. Both regular queen's not hybrids or Santa Catarina varieties. I definitely agree that queen's haven't been tried in many places and that's part of the problem and I also have a theory on why some queen's that have been tried by some people died in the winter. @Axel Amsterdam Do you have a link to the one tried in Portsmouth? Personally my theory to why some people have failed is to do with drainage. Queen palms HATE wet cold soil. If you have clay soil in the UK unless you massively amend the soil I wouldn't bother with queen's they do well in mild areas with chalky or sandy soil though. The most dangerous thing to queen palms in the UKs mildest spots is root rot in the winter the cold won't bother them in 9b+ areas.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Ben, this is the famous torquay CIDP, it survived because Torquay has been one of the mildest spots in the UK since a long time. Are there more CIDP’s developing into large trees in coastal locations and London, absolutely. Will they survive a major freeze? Perhaps, we dont know for sure, the outskirts of London had dead CIDP’s in 2010. They are certainly not as hardy as in TX, because of the factors we discussed above. 

I have pointed out before that if CIDP’s were that hardy in Europe you would see large ones inland in France from the Mediterranean sea all the way to Lyon. Thats not the case. You will find the occasional CIDP in Avignon but thats as far as it goes, there are large area’s 20 km behind the seashore that are simply too cold even though they are really sunny in winter and hot in summer. There are even no CIDP’s in certain inland area’s of Spain. So for me the idea that they can survive major freezes is really not based on European experiences.

In 2010 CIDPS did die in the London outskirts but a large amount still survived. In the Northolt suburbs there are good sized CIDP that survived the 2010 freeze, which is one of the colder spots in London, where it got to around -7c in the urban areas around there. I'd agree that lots of palms aren't hardy to countries but to large areas. But then for example you could argue coconuts aren't hardy in Hawaii since they can't grow at the top of the volcanos there even if there are large parts of Hawaii they can grow in

Edited by Foxpalms
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No link but it belonged to an IPS member who now resides in Malta. I also had contact with a palmgrower in the outskirts of London that has several queens since around 6 years. The one against the south wall manages 2 fronds, the others 1. Nice and i would definitely do the same in your location, i actually had a largish queen for a couple of years, but it’s still very slow so unsuitable in a windy coastal UK location because the fronds will brown from windy daytemps of 6C.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

I have 2 syagrus romanzoffianana in ground a 13ft one and a smaller 6ft one. Both regular queen's not hybrids or Santa Catarina varieties. I definitely agree that queen's haven't been tried in many places and that's part of the problem and I also have a theory on why some queen's that have been tried by some people died in the winter. @Axel Amsterdam Do you have a link to the one tried in Portsmouth? Personally my theory to why some people have failed is to do with drainage. Queen palms HATE wet cold soil. If you have clay soil in the UK unless you massively amend the soil I wouldn't bother with queen's they do well in mild areas with chalky or sandy soil though. The most dangerous thing to queen palms in the UKs mildest spots is root rot in the winter the cold won't bother them in 9b+ areas.

People said that P. theophrastii or Washingtonia filifera couldn't grow around our wet winter climates because it's too cold and too wet even if they survive the minimum temperatures. This has also turned out to be wrong. You can even grow all kinds of desert plants if you prepare the soil the right way. If you just stick everything into clay that stays wet, freezes through and doesn't allow for air circulation then it's no wonder that those plants die. I can't imagine that Queens don't do well in the mildest areas of the UK just because of solar radiation or cool wet winters. I'll try a Santa Catarina this year. I want to experiment with Queens as they are still very uncommon and that's probably also why there isn't enough data or experience about their capabilities.

  • Like 1

  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

No link but it belonged to an IPS member who now resides in Malta. I also had contact with a palmgrower in the outskirts of London that has several queens since around 6 years. The one against the south wall manages 2 fronds, the others 1. Nice and i would definitely do the same in your location, i actually had a largish queen for a couple of years, but it’s still very slow so unsuitable in a windy coastal UK location because the fronds will brown from windy daytemps of 6C.

Here's a photo of how the lammoran gardens queen palm is doing it's on a very steep garden sort of on a cliff next to the sea and I imagine can definitely get winy there, even though there's lots of plants that would reduce the winds. This is a screenshot from a post from 4 days ago and it looks completely fine. When I visited in the summer the queen palm looked like it was planted in well draining soil which is probably why it's doing well.  I have mine against a wall but I'm not sure why theirs is only growing 1 or 2 fronds per year maybe it isn't watered enough or fertilized. Being in central London also means much warmer summer nights than the outskirts so that could also be a factor.

Screenshot_20230202-212419228 (1).jpg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I try to keep my argument short but i guess that won't happen because this is an endless topic.  If Queen palms would do great in England or certain areas in Oregon or whatever place where it doesn't get that cold you would see them all over just like you see them in large parts of Florida and California BUT they aren't growing there what's so hard to understand that this isn't their natural environment where they grow the way they supposed to ? This is a delusional thought claiming we can grow Queens like you in Tampa,FL . How are queen palms hard to get if you can order seeds from all over the place in the world . I'm sure people like us would know a way to get them online so there's a reason why people don't plant them right ? Also Hawaii is pretty much located in or close to the tropics of cancer and if you take a look at their monthly temperatures you see that they don't share nothing with England or Oregon.  By the way I would assume there are more cold hardy palms in the Dallas area than you can find in London but correct me if I'm wrong ,if there's someone from the DFW area or visited this place recently. Least but not last global temperatures went up but not to a point where it matters it's cities expanding,  empty fields being developed that cause temperatures to go up there can be 10 to 15 degree differences in developed areas and undeveloped.  I lived over 40 years in Germany and I can say winters are getting back to normal like I've seen in the 80s and summers aren't that hot anymore.  Just because of 2 weeks of hot weather doesn't make the summer all hot.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

People said that P. theophrastii or Washingtonia filifera couldn't grow around our wet winter climates because it's too cold and too wet even if they survive the minimum temperatures. This has also turned out to be wrong. You can even grow all kinds of desert plants if you prepare the soil the right way. If you just stick everything into clay that stays wet, freezes through and doesn't allow for air circulation then it's no wonder that those plants die. I can't imagine that Queens don't do well in the mildest areas of the UK just because of solar radiation or cool wet winters. I'll try a Santa Catarina this year. I want to experiment with Queens as they are still very uncommon and that's probably also why there isn't enough data or experience about their capabilities.

You are assuming there isnt enough experiences with queens but there is on the EPS. Or ask Nigel who brought the Santa Catarinas from Brasil to the UK. I would love to be proven wrong but there really are dozens of failed cases, even of a 5 meter tall queen on the south coast in the same garden where a large brahea armata was growing very quickly. It just didnt grow and ofcourse lost its fronds in the strong wind, which also on the south coast is still too cold for syagrus leaflets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aren't people growing them successfully in many parts of New Zealand? They often also grow them in cool climated with a lack of intense solar radiation.

  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

You are assuming there isnt enough experiences with queens but there is on the EPS. Or ask Nigel who brought the Santa Catarinas from Brasil to the UK. I would love to be proven wrong but there really are dozens of failed cases, even of a 5 meter tall queen on the south coast in the same garden where a large brahea armata was growing very quickly. It just didnt grow and ofcourse lost its fronds in the strong wind, which also on the south coast is still too cold for syagrus leaflets.

Ok. I don't know those experiments then but I'll still try for myself because I've also seen people fail with other species here in my area or our general Western/Oceanic area and everybody concluded you couldn't grow it and when I tried myself I had a completely differnt outcome. It might not work all the time but sometimes it does. I think that I've even seen them growing in the South West Atlantic coast of France looking great, also Northern Spain. I can't imagine that they would do well there but can't here (excluding minimum temperatures as a factor).

  • Like 1

  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

People said that P. theophrastii or Washingtonia filifera couldn't grow around our wet winter climates because it's too cold and too wet even if they survive the minimum temperatures. This has also turned out to be wrong. You can even grow all kinds of desert plants if you prepare the soil the right way. If you just stick everything into clay that stays wet, freezes through and doesn't allow for air circulation then it's no wonder that those plants die. I can't imagine that Queens don't do well in the mildest areas of the UK just because of solar radiation or cool wet winters. I'll try a Santa Catarina this year. I want to experiment with Queens as they are still very uncommon and that's probably also why there isn't enough data or experience about their capabilities.

Lots of UK growers do two things thats annoying. They try a plant that dies in their area because it's too cold (North of England) and then claim it can't grow or isn't hardy anywhere in the UK because they cant grow it. Or they place it in a bad position in their garden and don't give it sufficient drainage ect and don't take into account where the plant comes from and just plants it in the ground and fills the hole back up with their garden soil.  Washingtonia and canary island dates palms in London can survive in less than ideal coniditons because they are very hardy, I've seen ones planted in full shade in clay soil in the north of London and do fine fine obviously when pushing the boundaries with things such as queen's you can't then give them less than ideal coniditons and except them to be happy. The main issue I identified for queens here is wet cold soil so even in partial shade I'd image they would be fine as long as the drainage is good but might grow slower. @Axel AmsterdamIs the grower who tried queen's in Portsmouth the same one who tried an archontophoenix cunninghamiana and it died from 28f. I think it was also not under canopy and fairly small so the coniditons could of been more ideal.  Maybe the archontophoenix cunninghamiana was also never exposed to cold when younger too so during that awful winter it was less hardy since it never had dealt with frost.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

I try to keep my argument short but i guess that won't happen because this is an endless topic.  If Queen palms would do great in England or certain areas in Oregon or whatever place where it doesn't get that cold you would see them all over just like you see them in large parts of Florida and California BUT they aren't growing there what's so hard to understand that this isn't their natural environment where they grow the way they supposed to ? This is a delusional thought claiming we can grow Queens like you in Tampa,FL . How are queen palms hard to get if you can order seeds from all over the place in the world . I'm sure people like us would know a way to get them online so there's a reason why people don't plant them right ? Also Hawaii is pretty much located in or close to the tropics of cancer and if you take a look at their monthly temperatures you see that they don't share nothing with England or Oregon.  By the way I would assume there are more cold hardy palms in the Dallas area than you can find in London but correct me if I'm wrong ,if there's someone from the DFW area or visited this place recently. Least but not last global temperatures went up but not to a point where it matters it's cities expanding,  empty fields being developed that cause temperatures to go up there can be 10 to 15 degree differences in developed areas and undeveloped.  I lived over 40 years in Germany and I can say winters are getting back to normal like I've seen in the 80s and summers aren't that hot anymore.  Just because of 2 weeks of hot weather doesn't make the summer all hot.  

You have a point there. With the climate idk. In Europe nothing is normal anymore when it comes to weather. It's not two weeks of hot weather but consecutive years with hotter and drier summers every year. We also get water restrictions nowadays. Cold spells seem to occur more frequent but way less severe. The average of sunshine hours has more than doubled in the last couple of years. The only thing I can imagine about Queens is the intensity of sun or solar radiation. But still weird because there are other palms from their latitude that do well in our latitudes.

  • Like 1

  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

I try to keep my argument short but i guess that won't happen because this is an endless topic.  If Queen palms would do great in England or certain areas in Oregon or whatever place where it doesn't get that cold you would see them all over just like you see them in large parts of Florida and California BUT they aren't growing there what's so hard to understand that this isn't their natural environment where they grow the way they supposed to ? This is a delusional thought claiming we can grow Queens like you in Tampa,FL . How are queen palms hard to get if you can order seeds from all over the place in the world . I'm sure people like us would know a way to get them online so there's a reason why people don't plant them right ? Also Hawaii is pretty much located in or close to the tropics of cancer and if you take a look at their monthly temperatures you see that they don't share nothing with England or Oregon.  By the way I would assume there are more cold hardy palms in the Dallas area than you can find in London but correct me if I'm wrong ,if there's someone from the DFW area or visited this place recently. Least but not last global temperatures went up but not to a point where it matters it's cities expanding,  empty fields being developed that cause temperatures to go up there can be 10 to 15 degree differences in developed areas and undeveloped.  I lived over 40 years in Germany and I can say winters are getting back to normal like I've seen in the 80s and summers aren't that hot anymore.  Just because of 2 weeks of hot weather doesn't make the summer all hot.  

As far as I'm aware there are actually very few people interested in palms living in the mildest parts of the UK and central London specifically maybe only a few. I seriously doubt a regular person not interested in palms especially would go out of their way to grow queen palms from seed and plant them in their garden. You can get queen's in the UK so you don't have to grow them from seed but they are fairly hard to get and certainly not common.  I not aware of the concentration of palms in Dallas but there are loads of CIDPS and chamaerops humilis in London and lots of Washingtonia, butias ect. You certainly wouldn't see howea forsteriana growing in Dallas whilst they grow in London. I'm not sure about Germany but here the summers on average are getting hotter than they used to be.  Essentially I agree queen's won't grow in the UK if you are talking about most places but in London, the south coast, the isle of wight and Cornwall they likely would grow and that's still a fairly large area.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Lots of UK growers do two things thats annoying. They try a plant that dies in their area because it's too cold (North of England) and then claim it can't grow or isn't hardy anywhere in the UK because they cant grow it. Or they place it in a bad position in their garden and don't give it sufficient drainage ect and don't take into account where the plant comes from and just plants it in the ground and fills the hole back up with their garden soil.  Washingtonia and canary island dates palms in London can survive in less than ideal coniditons because they are very hardy, I've seen ones planted in full shade in clay soil in the north of London and do fine fine obviously when pushing the boundaries with things such as queen's you can't then give them less than ideal coniditons and except them to be happy. The main issue I identified for queens here is wet cold soil so even in partial shade I'd image they would be fine as long as the drainage is good but might grow slower. @Axel AmsterdamIs the grower who tried queen's in Portsmouth the same one who tried an archontophoenix cunninghamiana and it died from 28f. I think it was also not under canopy and fairly small so the coniditons could of been more ideal.  Maybe the archontophoenix cunninghamiana was also never exposed to cold when younger too so during that awful winter it was less hardy since it never had dealt with frost.

Common issues. If you're zone pushing a plant, especially if it hasn't proven widely in your area then you have to spoil it as best as you can. Soil is one of the most important factors and I think that is one of the reasons I have been successful with so many things. You just have go and get the information about their favourite soils and provide it to them. Digging out a large hole is also important imo. If you just put a little fresh and draining soil around the plant it can't expand its roots and it still sits in a wet box of clay.

  • Upvote 1

  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

As far as I'm aware there are actually very few people interested in palms living in the mildest parts of the UK and central London specifically maybe only a few. I seriously doubt a regular person not interested in palms especially would go out of their way to grow queen palms from seed and plant them in their garden. You can get queen's in the UK so you don't have to grow them from seed but they are fairly hard to get and certainly not common.  I not aware of the concentration of palms in Dallas but there are loads of CIDPS and chamaerops humilis in London and lots of Washingtonia, butias ect. You certainly wouldn't see howea forsteriana growing in Dallas whilst they grow in London. I'm not sure about Germany but here the summers on average are getting hotter than they used to be.  Essentially I agree queen's won't grow in the UK if you are talking about most places but in London, the south coast, the isle of wight and Cornwall they likely would grow and that's still a fairly large area.

I wanted to say that. Europe isn't the US. People here aren't so adventurous and curious to try new things. The US also has a larger palm growing culture than Europe in general. Even in the best of climates around the Mediterranean Sea you only see few people trying things that are uncommon. Even Queens are not that common in the South of Europe at least if you compare it to other parts of the world. Europeans also tend to try things just once MAYBE twice and if it failed they say "Ok. It's impossible". Not going much further into why something failed. It's a generalsation but it is what it is...

  • Upvote 1

  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Lots of UK growers do two things thats annoying. They try a plant that dies in their area because it's too cold (North of England) and then claim it can't grow or isn't hardy anywhere in the UK because they cant grow it. Or they place it in a bad position in their garden and don't give it sufficient drainage ect and don't take into account where the plant comes from and just plants it in the ground and fills the hole back up with their garden soil.  Washingtonia and canary island dates palms in London can survive in less than ideal coniditons because they are very hardy, I've seen ones planted in full shade in clay soil in the north of London and do fine fine obviously when pushing the boundaries with things such as queen's you can't then give them less than ideal coniditons and except them to be happy. The main issue I identified for queens here is wet cold soil so even in partial shade I'd image they would be fine as long as the drainage is good but might grow slower. @Axel AmsterdamIs the grower who tried queen's in Portsmouth the same one who tried an archontophoenix cunninghamiana and it died from 28f. I think it was also not under canopy and fairly small so the coniditons could of been more ideal.  Maybe the archontophoenix cunninghamiana was also never exposed to cold when younger too so during that awful winter it was less hardy since it never had dealt with frost.

Yes think thats the same person, he has a lot of plant knowledge though.

I will wait for succes stories on queen palms in terms of real growth, more than 2 fronds. I know they will easily survive in parts of London. I have seen much better London queens than the coastal one above with the rather weak yellow fronds. Still they remain slow even in London after years. 

But lets not assume other people didnt know how to plant or take advantage of micro climates outside of London. Large parts of inland UK even lost their cordylines a couple of weeks ago. There are no large CIDP’s or washingtonias in most UK areas, not even with perfect drainage because its just too cold every 5 or so years. London is a plants world on its own where also theophrasti and dactylifera is possible. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

You are assuming there isnt enough experiences with queens but there is on the EPS. Or ask Nigel who brought the Santa Catarinas from Brasil to the UK. I would love to be proven wrong but there really are dozens of failed cases, even of a 5 meter tall queen on the south coast in the same garden where a large brahea armata was growing very quickly. It just didnt grow and ofcourse lost its fronds in the strong wind, which also on the south coast is still too cold for syagrus leaflets.

I've also read of people who had syagrus in southern Wales and the south coast growing completely fine though. A lot of those cases they also don't state why their palm died just that it did. I would love to message the people who has their palms die there and ask more specific questions. Especially about the soil drainage. When @UK_Palmsmoves to the south coast then we will reliably be able to monitor how queen palms do there since I'm sure UK palms will give the queen palms sufficient drainage and a sheltered spot. That way if it's doing well we can clearly see what works and what doesn't work and if it's barley surviving then we can see what exactly is causing it to not do so well. All I can say is my queen palms are completely undamaged by one of the worst winters and grow well in the summer. The only thing mine needs now is some fertilizer but I will have to wait untill late march when it starts warming up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...