UK Worst Freeze Since 2010

[petiole10]

19 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@petiole10 I respectively suggest you don't lecture us on how cold this arctic blast is when you are living 1,500 miles away in southern Portugal and not actually experiencing it. We don't insist the heatwaves and droughts you experience over there are just 'normal' and not very bad, do we. So don't downplay this event and make out it is the norm for us here

Excuse me?❓ I am not lecturing anyone. Unless giving a different opinion and offering perspective cannot be tolerated!  . I lived in the UK for all my life until 18 months back, am almost certainly older than you, have a pretty good idea of what the weather/climate is like from the country I was born in and am quite able to do my own research to qualify my opinions based on what I know. Thankyou very much...

So i would respectfully ask that you try and get some perspective and not be so dramatic and OTT about every weather event that happens, I suggested waiting till the end of the month for a true comparison and just because I now live in a different part of Europe it doesn't nullify the objectivity of such a suggestion. And I don't need to ask your permission to do so .

It is worth looking at the UK Met Office assessment of 2010, its longevity and the true impacts of that historic freeze and it becomes clear that as cold as this spell certainly is in the UK, it is not as severe, in relative terms, and it is not historic - especially with milder conditions to come by the weekend. That substantiates waiting for the full month to complete so an accurate comparison can be made bearing in mind the 2010 freeze began in the last week of November and lasted right into early 2011. 

It is certainly a distinctly colder than average spell of weather for the UK but it is not historic and there is no sign, as yet, that it will end up as such wither. Time by the end of the month will tell. . That is not downplaying - it is called perspective. And saying so is not 'lecturing' either.  After all I am pretty much paraphrasing the UK Met Office - unless of course you think you know better than them and that they are downplaying it also...

The droughts and heatwaves in this part of the world are steadily increasing in their frequency and severity. That, again, is perspective and neither exaggerating or downplaying. 

To a more general audience: The issue here in Portugal is now total over saturation with high humidity and huge amounts of sub tropical moisture in an unstable atmosphere dumping relentless amounts of rain. The dampness and wetness is also invasive indoors, with wetness/condensation on walls and floors and unable to dry out with the very high dewpoints and lack of respite for long enough of the downpours.. This is not uncommon in winter for this part of the world, so again it is perspective, but as a newcomer to the country and not experienced about my micro climate yet as I was in the UK, it is taking a lot of getting used to!.   Fungal issues with palms and plants is increasingly the issue to look out for in this prolonged wet spell.

 

[Foxpalms]

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

Swings and roundabouts. Yes you can say it was due to cloud cover, but that also comes with the territory of being close to the coast and closer to the Atlantic. During these events they are more likely to get cloud cover. In fact London had cloud cover and snow on Sunday night, but the temperature still dropped down to about 0C / 32F or -1C / 30F even. Compare that to somewhere like Falmouth in Cornwall, which was holding out at 7C / 43F under the same conditions. Also Eastbourne didn't have cloud cover last night and was still holding up at 3C / 38F overnight. You can't just say it's due to cloud cover when there are obviously microclimates in those regions.

During this freeze, even the most protected areas of central/eastern London are seeing +1-2C / 35F highs and -1C / 30F lows. Possibly a bit lower even. In the grand scheme of things, that is still pretty mild with no real damaging temps, but it is still much cooler than other south coast regions. London is not even in the top 5 mildest parts of southern England during major freeze events. It's way more protected than most places, sure, but it's still not even close to some of the sheltered, coastal valleys of southern Cornwall, east Dorset and the southeast region of the Isle of Wight. The majority of London actually gets significantly colder than those places with only central London by the Thames remotely rivalling them.

Looking at the central London temps right now at 5pm. The warmest part of city is only holding out at about 2C / 36F right now. Most of the central area is close to 1C / 34C. The residual heat has been zapped out of the city mate due to how prolonged this freeze is. The difference between my location right now and warmest part of London is only about 3C / 6F.

 

Compare that to the coastal parts of the Torquay-Paignton-Brixham area down to Salcombe in south Devon right now. They have a really good microclimate there in that area.

 

Look at the Falmouth estuary region again in Cornwall, which I have already mentioned. It's running at 8C / 46F there right now, which is a solid 6C warmer than central London. It's basically the same temperature there as the Scilly Isles right now. Not sure how London competes with that in the mildness category. Well it doesn't.

The sea has a better heat capacity than the concrete from the urban heat island so it tends to be warmer during the winter at night. The sea in the UK isnt as warm as in Florida for example to whilst It helps it can only warm the area up so much, unless it's a small island right in the gulf stream such as the Scilly isles miles away from land. There was 1 night some of those places got colder than I got to during this freeze, but most nights they where warmer. I think eastbourne had partial clouds last night's whilst it was completely clear here. Sunday night/ Monday morning it didn't go below freezing here whilst I think in eastern central London except the very warmest spots it did because I think they had a few hours without clouds before it returned back to being cloudy. But even before the clouds here up untill 10pm it was clear skies that's why the temperature stayed just barley above freezing that night. South west Cornwall looks very mild tonight  the isle of wight and Eastbourne might possibly get some snow and Cornwall tonight but the mildest parts of Cornwall won't get any. Also there's a photo from one of the Davis stations from central London.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Foxpalms

[Foxpalms]

24 minutes ago, Ryland said:

I saw that they had a new coldest temperature of the year, again at Braemar, something like -17ºC.  There are very few places in the UK where you couldn't grow a Trachycarpus, but that is one of them.

I had been almost as unconcerned as @Foxpalms about this until the last day or two, because I live in a fairly sheltered region with urban heat island too.  Being between the Pennines and the Irish Sea prevents Manchester from getting the worst cold, usually.  That is still the case this time, where most central urban areas have not gone below -3, and the outer suburbs have generally stayed above -5.  In this region, some of the most exposed and elevated places like the Cheshire Plain or the West Pennine Moors have gone to -8 or slightly lower.  I wouldn't normally be bothered about -2.7ºC (my coldest so far) if it weren't for us spending 20 hours a day below freezing some days (1.9ºC is the warmest temperature of the past week) - do you think it's a serious concern?  For the likes of Butia, Brahea, Washingtonia robusta, Phoenix canariensis, Cycas revoluta.

I had palms including Phoenix canariensis outside and unprotected in pots during 2018 and they had no issue at all, however the cold of 2018 was brief, if slightly sharper (-5ºC here, it was worse in the south).

I'm just grateful it's not like 2010 when it was -10ºC in central areas (the all-time record low).  If we had that I'd be covering the entire garden in a big sheet of plastic (small terraced house garden and young plants) and running a heater for 1-2 hours per day under it.

Today it got up to 3.8c, that's also why I am glad the temperature drops slowly at night since the hours below freezing, even if it's only -0.5c can be 10+ I'm sure places where temperature drops fast have had possibly 19+ hours of freezing temperatures, so the longer it stays above freezing here the better! I think most of you're palms will be fine but I'm not sure about the washingtonia robusta. 

[Foxpalms]

38 minutes ago, petiole10 said:

Excuse me?❓ I am not lecturing anyone. Unless giving a different opinion and offering perspective cannot be tolerated!  . I lived in the UK for all my life until 18 months back, am almost certainly older than you, have a pretty good idea of what the weather/climate is like from the country I was born in and am quite able to do my own research to qualify my opinions based on what I know. Thankyou very much...

So i would respectfully ask that you try and get some perspective and not be so dramatic and OTT about every weather event that happens, I suggested waiting till the end of the month for a true comparison and just because I now live in a different part of Europe it doesn't nullify the objectivity of such a suggestion. And I don't need to ask your permission to do so .

It is worth looking at the UK Met Office assessment of 2010, its longevity and the true impacts of that historic freeze and it becomes clear that as cold as this spell certainly is in the UK, it is not as severe, in relative terms, and it is not historic - especially with milder conditions to come by the weekend. That substantiates waiting for the full month to complete so an accurate comparison can be made bearing in mind the 2010 freeze began in the last week of November and lasted right into early 2011. 

It is certainly a distinctly colder than average spell of weather for the UK but it is not historic and there is no sign, as yet, that it will end up as such wither. Time by the end of the month will tell. . That is not downplaying - it is called perspective. And saying so is not 'lecturing' either.  After all I am pretty much paraphrasing the UK Met Office - unless of course you think you know better than them and that they are downplaying it also...

The droughts and heatwaves in this part of the world are steadily increasing in their frequency and severity. That, again, is perspective and neither exaggerating or downplaying. 

To a more general audience: The issue here in Portugal is now total over saturation with high humidity and huge amounts of sub tropical moisture in an unstable atmosphere dumping relentless amounts of rain. The dampness and wetness is also invasive indoors, with wetness/condensation on walls and floors and unable to dry out with the very high dewpoints and lack of respite for long enough of the downpours.. This is not uncommon in winter for this part of the world, so again it is perspective, but as a newcomer to the country and not experienced about my micro climate yet as I was in the UK, it is taking a lot of getting used to!.   Fungal issues with palms and plants is increasingly the issue to look out for in this prolonged wet spell.

 

With regards to 2010, the coldest temperatures during that freeze were seen at the end of the month. Secondly there were plenty of days in central London where it didn't go below freezing untill the last third of the month untill the 26th where I remember the car thermometer at 7am showing -3.5/25.7f whilst going though central London on one of the colder nights. It was below average for the whole month but the freeze at least for London and especially central London wasn't for the entire month.  The coldest temperature I saw in the outskirts where I used to live during 2010 was just over -7c. For here 2010 was worse but 2018 was much shorter. What weather station did you use to record that temperature in 2018, since I can't really find any other weather stations in the area that reflects that temperature, or anything close to that other than miles inland?

[UK_Palms]

4 minutes ago, petiole10 said:

Excuse me?❓ I am not lecturing anyone. Unless giving a different opinion and offering perspective cannot be tolerated!  . I lived in the UK for all my life until 18 months back, am almost certainly older than you, have a pretty good idea of what the weather/climate is like from the country I was born in and am quite able to do my own research to qualify my opinions based on what I know. Thankyou very much...

So i would respectfully ask that you try and get some perspective and not be so dramatic and OTT about every weather event that happens, I suggested waiting till the end of the month for a true comparison and just because I now live in a different part of Europe it doesn't nullify the objectivity of such a suggestion. And I don't need to ask your permission to do so .

 

My point was that you were downplaying/generalising the current freeze that I am experiencing here and implying it was normal. It felt a bit condescending, that is all, given that my rural inland location is seeing the worst freeze on record during the first half of December. I have had worse freezes here before, but never one this bad, or prolonged, during the first half of December. I am being affected far worse here than London or the south coast where it has been much milder.

There have been a number of unwanted records set over the past 3-4 days here. I had 4 consecutive nights of record low temperatures for those dates (7th - 10th). Also first time since 1962 that I have had 7 consecutive days fail to reach 5C during first half of December. Plus -7.5C is also my lowest temperature in the first half of December since 1962. Not to mention we had the lowest daytime max for the entire UK since 2010. This past week has been about as bad as it gets relevant to how early it is in winter.

You can comment what you like. It's fine. I just felt you were generalising the freeze, at least in my area, from an outside perspective. It has been worse in my area than you realise. Whatever though. You're obviously entitled to your opinion. As you say, we will just wait until the final figures come out at the end of the month. Not worth bickering over something so meaningless. I have more important things to deal with anyway, like the freeze itself. You have it much easier over there where you are, I can assure you.

[Foxpalms]

Looks like the freeze will finally end next week. The temperature here at the moment is 34f/1.1c.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Foxpalms

[Foxpalms]

@UK_Palms Here are some wunderground stations from Penzance and Southsea. They had 1 night colder than central London has gotten but as you mention most nights its warmer there. Did you get any snow because I saw a large snow cloud appear over Cornwall, the isle of Wight and southern England but it hasn't reached London at least for now. Ventnor has only gone down to 31.5f/-0.2c.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Foxpalms

[Foxpalms]

A few more, Torquay, Eastbourne, Bognor Regis, Selsey and Bournemouth. I tried to pick the warmest wunderground stations in these areas except Torquay since one seemed abnormally high.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Foxpalms

[Foxpalms]

The bougainvillea looks fine. Does anyone know how hardy this variety is it was sold as bougainvillea spectabilis. The website said hardy to zone 10. It is in the warmest part of the garden.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Foxpalms

[Arecaceus]

On 12/13/2022 at 12:26 AM, UK_Palms said:

This is an absolute joke here. I have experienced my coldest early December temperatures in over 300 years since the early 1700's or mid-1600's here. Relevant to the modern day Met Office records (circa 1940's) 4 of the past 5 nights have been the coldest EVER on record for the time of year. We have broken the record low temperature here for the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th of December. I also have to go back to 1658 for the last time that my area saw 5 consecutive nights below -5C / 23F before 14th December.

It's just brutal radiation freeze after radiation freeze under the clear skies, with a -8C to -10C 850 hPa isotherm sitting over us, which is also a new isotherm record for the date(s) too. The average temperature here is also at its lowest ever on record for the first 10 days of December in my area. The central England Temperature series (CET) is the 2nd lowest on record for first 10 days of December and even lower than 2010. This is going to be my worst ever 'early' December freeze on record here now. 

My low on Friday night was -7.5C / 18F and it was still -7C / 19F at 9am on Saturday morning with little hope for daytime recovery.

 

Daytime recovery did go into complete overdrive however with 11C / 20F+ of solar heating here between 9am - 2pm. That is significant given that I am at 51N and the solar minimum (winter solstice) is just 11 days away now. That is almost like a New Mexico style recovery there. Most stuff had thawed out in the sun by 2pm.

 

The back to back radiation frosts have thoroughly frozen everything in my garden now however. These photos were taken at midday on Sunday.

 

This is an apple believe it or not, which was sitting in a shaded spot in my back yard & covered in frost at 2pm over the weekend.

/

 

Over the past 36 hours temperatures have stayed in the 0C to -2C range, so no extreme radiational freezes due to cloud cover. It's really surprising to see just how much milder the Isles of Scilly really are during this event. They still haven't gone below about 3-4C / 39F there. When I was around 0C / 32F here during the day, it was 8C / 46F in the Scilly Isles. It's a whole different climate over there. Subtropical, given that they are technically being effected by this arctic blast as well.

 

Unbelievably London and Kent experienced a significant snowfall event last night. I missed it here, but it seems that even central London got quite a decent amount of snow too. This is the first December snowfall in London in 8 years, since 2014. So again it shows the significant nature of this cold event. Temperatures remained fairly mild last night however around 0C / 32F despite the snowfall. Much milder than in previous nights, especially in my area. Many parts of London with snow didn't go below -1C / 30F.

 

@Foxpalms Did you get much snow where you are mate? I didn't get anything at all here with the exception of a few flurries. Nothing measurable though.

 

I saw Dave Brown post this photo of his Filibusta weighed down by the snow in Kent. It's only a bit of cosmetic damage (his lowest was -4C / 25F) but it still looks quite nasty.

 

@petiole10 I respectively suggest you don't lecture us on how cold this arctic blast is when you are living 1,500 miles away in southern Portugal and not actually experiencing it. We don't insist the heatwaves and droughts you experience over there are just 'normal' and not very bad, do we. So don't downplay this event and make out it is the norm for us here.

Today is provisionally the coldest day since 2010 in the UK with parts of Scotland not rising above -9.3C (15F). Tonight could also see the coldest overnight minima for 12 years as well. This is a significant freeze for the UK, given that December 2010 is the coldest month ever on record in places. -20C / -5F is expected in the Highlands of northern Scotland tonight.

 

At least mild westerlies should be arriving by Friday/Saturday now, which may take the temps back up to double digits, hopefully.

OMG! Those garden picures! This looks like one of those Texas freezes. Like you just put the entre landscape into a freezer. Poor Washy.

[Arecaceus]

Just besides the controversy in this thread. The whole pressure system build up is messed up. This is not a normal cold blast. What I mean is, that even within rare cold blasts this is not a normal cold blast.

[Foxpalms]

6 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

Just besides the controversy in this thread. The whole pressure system build up is messed up. This is not a normal cold blast. What I mean is, that even within rare cold blasts this is not a normal cold blast.

Its strange you had some much cloud whilst we had lots of sun and clear skies until the last 2 days. Not taking into consideration how cold its been its been really a weird unusual freeze, the winds also keep changing direction.

[Arecaceus]

Just now, Foxpalms said:

Its strange you had some much cloud whilst we had lots of sun and clear skies until the last 2 days. Not taking into consideration how cold its been its been really a weird unusual freeze, the winds also keep changing direction.

Yes. To me the cold came from the North West and even West! The cold air actually came from the UK! I mean what in the entire world?!... Clouds are usually the reason we have mild nights in winter as well. But this time it wasn't mild but cloud, but without snow and with tempertures just above and just below freezing all day and night. And I just can't use my experience to predict what mught happen next because the forecast is also changeging so fast.

[Foxpalms]

22 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

I was about to suggest a B. Alfredii.... Until I got 'til the 15-18 post. Gonna go with Trachycarpus and Jubaea. 

Keep us apprised.  I would still give them some protection.

Here's one of the 3 Beccariophoenix alfredii's, so far it looks good. I think I might plant one in ground next year.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Foxpalms

[Bennz]

7 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Here's one of the 3 Beccariophoenix alfredii's, so far it looks good. I think I might plant one in ground next year.

I hope you plant it somewhere very obvious, so passers-by can marvel at a 'Coconut' growing in London!

[Foxpalms]

4 minutes ago, Bennz said:

I hope you plant it somewhere very obvious, so passers-by can marvel at a 'Coconut' growing in London!

I will probably plant it in the back garden but I still then have another 2 I could plant. The issue with the front garden is its north facing and I'm not sure if this palm can take only a few hours of sun per day in the summer and none at all in the winter. For the front I'm thinking about maybe planting a banglow palm triple since they don't mind being in the shade.

[petiole10]

8 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

Just besides the controversy in this thread. The whole pressure system build up is messed up. This is not a normal cold blast. What I mean is, that even within rare cold blasts this is not a normal cold blast.

The Portuguese weather bureau (Portuguese institute for sea and atmosphere) write up good analysis on global patterns in respect of how Portugal is influenced by them. The basis of what they say about the present pattern is about the North Atlantic Oscillation and it being in a negative phase which means that low pressure is close to the Azores (and Portugal). Hence the very wet rainfall pattern. They mention that the country is under a sub tropical jet stream (hence the high humidity with the rain. They also speak of how this jet stream is further south because of the blocked high pressure systems at the higher latitudes which is bringing the polar air of origin to northern parts of Europe

But equally interestingly they say that negative North Atlantic Oscillation patterns happen regularly enough, though not as common as the reverse pattern which brings high pressure close to the Azores (and the Iberian peninsula in general)  

From forecasts it looks like the negative Oscillation will reverse into next week - with the jet stream heading back a bit further north. So the rainy weather heads north and the cold air also retreats back from places like the UK and probably quite a bit of mainland Europe.

So in that respect, the weather patterns are reversed from the more common pattern and are messed up in that sense. But such negative Oscillation patterns do happen from time to time at any time of year. It is just the case that people get used to cold spells happening fewer and further between and this leads to thinking they are stronger and colder  - when in reality it is that the baseline of climate heading upwards that makes these cold spells seems worse than they really are.

That is not to trivialise. It is a perspective. For an exotics and palm grower of course,  it is easy to see why some have a magnified perception of the impact of a cold spell based on the obvious intolerance that such exotics have of relatively longer spells of cold weather. I tried to keep this in mind when I was keeping my palms and exotics in the UK. Here in Portugal, other than drought and opposite extreme of flooding rain storms there are other non weather concerns like Red Palm Weevil to have to monitor closely.

[Foxpalms]

1 hour ago, petiole10 said:

The Portuguese weather bureau (Portuguese institute for sea and atmosphere) write up good analysis on global patterns in respect of how Portugal is influenced by them. The basis of what they say about the present pattern is about the North Atlantic Oscillation and it being in a negative phase which means that low pressure is close to the Azores (and Portugal). Hence the very wet rainfall pattern. They mention that the country is under a sub tropical jet stream (hence the high humidity with the rain. They also speak of how this jet stream is further south because of the blocked high pressure systems at the higher latitudes which is bringing the polar air of origin to northern parts of Europe

But equally interestingly they say that negative North Atlantic Oscillation patterns happen regularly enough, though not as common as the reverse pattern which brings high pressure close to the Azores (and the Iberian peninsula in general)  

From forecasts it looks like the negative Oscillation will reverse into next week - with the jet stream heading back a bit further north. So the rainy weather heads north and the cold air also retreats back from places like the UK and probably quite a bit of mainland Europe.

So in that respect, the weather patterns are reversed from the more common pattern and are messed up in that sense. But such negative Oscillation patterns do happen from time to time at any time of year. It is just the case that people get used to cold spells happening fewer and further between and this leads to thinking they are stronger and colder  - when in reality it is that the baseline of climate heading upwards that makes these cold spells seems worse than they really are.

That is not to trivialise. It is a perspective. For an exotics and palm grower of course,  it is easy to see why some have a magnified perception of the impact of a cold spell based on the obvious intolerance that such exotics have of relatively longer spells of cold weather. I tried to keep this in mind when I was keeping my palms and exotics in the UK. Here in Portugal, other than drought and opposite extreme of flooding rain storms there are other non weather concerns like Red Palm Weevil to have to monitor closely.

Firstly yes we can get negative NAO phases, however these are fairly uncommon and rarely as prolonged as it has been recently. The longevity of this negative phase is unusual and it's caused the temperatures day by day to slowly drop, this usually only happens once every few winters and not to the extent of this one. You are making it sound like this is a common thing that happens every winter here to this extent. There's a reason central London doesn't go below freezing most winters untill an event like this which a milder version usually occurs once every few years for example 2018 and 2013, and the key thing to take out of that is most winters are frost free here because this doesn't happen. Secondly you said "It is just the case that people get used to cold spells happening fewer and further between and this leads to thinking they are stronger and colder" this is the worst freeze since 2010 and could you provide please provide a screenshot of where anyone from the UK on Palmtalk has suggested here that they think the freezes are getting stronger and colder, since personally I can't find anyone that's suggested that. . This thread was made to discuss the current freeze in the UK which is much colder than it gets on the average winter here. The winters are getting warmer here but that doesn't take away from the fact this freeze is very cold, one of the worst in the in recent times. The 1990s and 2000s up untill 2009 were mild and so have the last 10 years. Most winters have been mild so the perspective this freeze in comparison to most winters is very bad would be correct. Again this, "that is not to trivialise. It is a perspective. For an exotics and palm grower of course,  it is easy to see why some have a magnified perception of the impact of a cold spell" I am basing the verdict of how bad this freeze is from the fact that most UK winters are mild and these types of events are rare in the UK and comparing it against other recent freezes within the last 20 years, not because I have a bunch of frost tender plants. My frost tender plants are doing fine anyway. This is not just a "cold spell" it's much worse than that, no one has magnified the perception that this freeze is bad, rather the opposite is true. With all due respect you are downplaying the event acting like this is a regular thing, just another cold spell in the UK, I'm well aware of what kind of temperatures the UK would be seeing under a normal cold spell. For example every 10-20 years Florida can get a very bad freeze whilst usually every winter they have just one cold spell. This is would be the equivalent to that bad freeze once every 10-20 years in Florida not a regular cold spell. Hopefully that comparison also makes it easier to understand for people reading this from the USA. I'm also interested what weather station you were using to record you're temperature at you're previous location, since none of the near by wunderground stations reflect anywhere near the temperatures you recorded. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Foxpalms

[Tyrone]

Well from reading this thread I’ve learnt a few things. It’s incredibly cold in the UK at the moment. The other thing it’s confirmed my thoughts that if I had to move to the UK I would have to move to southern Cornwall probably as close to western end of Cornwall as possible, maybe around Penzance somewhere, and not on Bodmin Moor for example. 

[petiole10]

17 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

Well from reading this thread I’ve learnt a few things. It’s incredibly cold in the UK at the moment. The other thing it’s confirmed my thoughts that if I had to move to the UK I would have to move to southern Cornwall probably as close to western end of Cornwall as possible, maybe around Penzance somewhere, and not on Bodmin Moor for example. 

It is very cold in the UK at the moment and in variously different ways that same sentiment has been expressed. An issue is that any attempt to put perspective on it or offer a different insight is not appreciated. So no further comments will be made🙂

Southern/Western Cornwall would be a good idea. In respect of Western Cornwall, the Scilly Isles are even milder and packed with wonderful sub tropical exotics - though as lovely as it is, you may find it a little disconnected from things for your tastes.

Of course you could always opt for somewhere like Portugal....😉

Edited December 14, 2022 by petiole10

[Foxpalms]

23 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

Well from reading this thread I’ve learnt a few things. It’s incredibly cold in the UK at the moment. The other thing it’s confirmed my thoughts that if I had to move to the UK I would have to move to southern Cornwall probably as close to western end of Cornwall as possible, maybe around Penzance somewhere, and not on Bodmin Moor for example. 

South west cornwall tends to typically stay warmer during these type of freezes than elsewhere. They did however have 1 night where it got colder than here in central London has gotten during this freeze (-2c In Penzance). The coldest temperature I got down to was -1.3c in the coldest part of my garden, but there's been a few days where it's only gotten to only 2 or 3c during the day here. South west Cornwalls temperature typically has been rising higher than here during the day, during the freeze, due to the proximity to the sea which is currently 12c. Bodmin moor is probably the coldest spot in Cornwall you wouldn't want to live there if you grow palms! Whilst Penzance in the winter is very slightly warmer than here the summers here are much warmer. Penzance has cool humid summers whilst here they are warm-hot and dry with low humidity. That's also the reason why filifera and dactylifera don't do well in Cornwall. Pretty much the same stuff grows in both climates except the dessert plants which do much better here. Cornwall has a much nicer landscape than London though lots of palms planted along the coast and on roundabouts ect. Also lots of amazing botanical gardens down there. If only the council's here would start planting Washingtonia robusta and more canary island dates palms. Even a few queen's in central London should be fine mine have no issues. Kentias, nikaus and king palms so far also seem to be doing well here. They should also line the coast around Penzance with archontophoenix cunninghamiana and howea forsteriana that would look amazing!

[Samuel]

Tonight is going to be interesting temps even in central london could go down to -8c I’d expect quite a bit of damage if it happens 

[Palmsofengland]

2 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

South west cornwall tends to typically stay warmer during these type of freezes than elsewhere. They did however have 1 night where it got colder than here in central London has gotten during this freeze (-2c In Penzance). The coldest temperature I got down to was -1.3c in the coldest part of my garden, but there's been a few days where it's only gotten to only 2 or 3c during the day here. South west Cornwalls temperature typically has been rising higher than here during the day, during the freeze, due to the proximity to the sea which is currently 12c. Bodmin moor is probably the coldest spot in Cornwall you wouldn't want to live there if you grow palms! Whilst Penzance in the winter is very slightly warmer than here the summers here are much warmer. Penzance has cool humid summers whilst here they are warm-hot and dry with low humidity. That's also the reason why filifera and dactylifera don't do well in Cornwall. Pretty much the same stuff grows in both climates except the dessert plants which do much better here. Cornwall has a much nicer landscape than London though lots of palms planted along the coast and on roundabouts ect. Also lots of amazing botanical gardens down there. If only the council's here would start planting Washingtonia robusta and more canary island dates palms. Even a few queen's in central London should be fine mine have no issues. Kentias, nikaus and king palms so far also seem to be doing well here. They should also line the coast around Penzance with archontophoenix cunninghamiana and howea forsteriana that would look amazing!

As a heads up regarding Penzance temperatures, the NCI Davis station there has only recorded a minimum of -0.1*c through this cold period.

[Foxpalms]

8 hours ago, Palmsofengland said:

As a heads up regarding Penzance temperatures, the NCI Davis station there has only recorded a minimum of -0.1*c through this cold period.

That's good to know. The wunderground station is about half a mile from from the sea and not in the town so it probably gets slightly colder there. Do you have any photos of you're Howea Belmoreana?

Edited December 15, 2022 by Foxpalms

[Foxpalms]

8 hours ago, Samuel said:

Tonight is going to be interesting temps even in central london could go down to -8c I’d expect quite a bit of damage if it happens 

I doubt it will get to -8c here it's -1.2c at the moment at 1.30am. The warmer parts of the garden are 0.2c at the moment (near the house under trees).We had cloud at mid day today so the temperature wasn't able to rise that much then we have clear skies all night. Hopefully the temperature rises more tomorrow since we should have solar heating all day.

[UK_Palms]

Welcome to another episode of 'where is the mildest place in the UK tonight'. So just how many places are not below freezing at 2am? Not bloody many. Certainly not as many as in recent nights, where quite a few spots escaped frost. This time the radiation freeze is effecting the entire nation with everywhere just plummeting now.

The UHI in cities and any coastal influence is becoming less pronounced due to the duration of the cold. Except for mountain peeks, the difference between inland rural areas and say London, or Torquay, is much lower now. It's like the warmth has just been zapped out of everything now. The only places currently holding up above freezing are...

1.) Scilly Isles (obviously) - during this whole freeze event I don't think they have gone below +4C / 40F as the lowest. It is essentially frost free and subtropical there.

 

2.) Margate-Broadstairs-Ramsgate area on the far east coast of Kent, which is holding out at about 2C / 36F. This area is fairly mild and more or less part of the south coast, although its proximity to the near continent can sometimes leave it exposed to 'Beast from the East' type events and can get colder than Cornwall. Plenty of exotics though still.

 

3.) Falmouth in Cornwall (a known mild spot) is holding up, just about I think. A frost may be inevitable there tonight though, eventually.

 

4.) Also St. Ives on the north shore of southwest Cornwall just about holding up. Not far from Penzance on the far southwest tip of Cornwall, so no surprise it is fairly protected. Again though, for how long? They will probably go down to 0C there tonight still. Really unusual to see Cornwall this cold now.

 

5.) Brixham, just south of Torquay & Paignton in Devon is barely holding up, but above 0C / 32F still. For now at least. Won't be long until frost forms there.

 

6.) Plymouth barely holding up as well on the south coast. Frost is imminent there now too.

 

 

Places like Penzance, Torquay, Southsea, Ventnor, central London etc are all at freezing now (0C / 32F) or just below even. All the usual 'mild' spots below 0C pretty much, which shows how significant this freeze is for early winter. The mildest place in London is about -2C / 28F right now. Coldest central London temperatures in nearly 5 years, since February 2018.

There are some milder places in Scotland and Wales that are just above freezing still too, due to cloud cover, but I am not posting them as no palms grow there due to the colder climate in general and more northern location. Plus on another night they could be FAR colder than anywhere on the south coast or anywhere in England.

The milder air from the Atlantic cannot arrive soon enough for us, but we still have another 3 days/nights of this freeze left to go. Relief is in sight though...

[Foxpalms]

@UK_Palms I was reading the other day that lamorran gardens neighbor's had a frost while the gardens didn't probably because of all the tree canopy and the microclimate they created. Sand banks the peninsula near Bournemouth has also been fairly mild, it's only gotten down to -1.6c there. Margate seems to also be in a good location the coldest there has been about -1c in the warmest parts. The coldest the Davis station in Plymouth has gotten down to this freeze was 26f/-3.3c this is also situated right next to the sea. Other than the Scilly isles the mildest 2and mildest spots seems to be somewhere along the coast on Jersey. Ventnor is also a good microclimate, it's only gone down to -0.38c. Shanklin however is significantly colder than ventnor probably because it's not on a slope and doesn't have the hills trapping in the sea air and blocking the inland cold air. The coldest so far this freeze in Shanklin is -2c. I made my garden into a microclimate, for example the Tresco abbey gardens during the freeze there got to -8c whilst the helipad just outside the garden got to -12c so the warmer parts of my gardens should be 1-2c warmer. Either way I don't think this freeze will be a problem for CIDP or Washingtonia only things such as kentias, bougainvillea and Norfolk Island pines. The Musa basjoo in Knightsbridge still had their leaves on them completely undamaged on Sunday. 15c here on Monday and I always add 1c during the day to the BBC temperature forecast since they always understate the temperatures so likely 16c with a low of 12c, the same high as Phoenix Arizona and low as Melbourne.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Foxpalms

[Foxpalms]

Here are the temperatures this morning at 7.50am across the UK and London. Ventnor had a low of 30.4f/-0.8c the mostly cloudy night helped keep it still in 10a temperatures this winter there. Manchester looks really cold tonight. Parts of southern Scotland are very cold tonight down to -14c 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Foxpalms

[Palmsofengland]

7 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

That's good to know. The wunderground station is about half a mile from from the sea and not in the town so it probably gets slightly colder there. Do you have any photos of you're Howea Belmoreana?

I won’t be down at the house until February. Hoping the belmoreana is fine. Low last night at Davis station of 0.1*C so am expecting it to be fine, but maybe with a small bit of frost damage.

[Foxpalms]

5 minutes ago, Palmsofengland said:

I won’t be down at the house until February. Hoping the belmoreana is fine. Low last night at Davis station of 0.1*C so am expecting it to be fine, but maybe with a small bit of frost damage.

It got colder here than that and the howea forsteriana are fine. I would plant a belmoreana here but they are very hard to find for sale after leaving the EU. If you have any other frost tender palms there you should photograph them and put them on Palmtalk, I'm sure lots of people would like to see them. I think it should be fine down there if it only got to 0.1c however it looks like tonight there won't be cloud in Penzance so it will get colder.

[Foxpalms]

@kinzyjrThe archontophoenix Alexandrae is slightly discolored and has a slightly mottled look to it. But it doesn't look too bad after a 28f night and 29.9f in the spot the Alexandrae is in.

[Tyrone]

4 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

@kinzyjrThe archontophoenix Alexandrae is slightly discolored and has a slightly mottled look to it. But it doesn't look too bad after a 28f night and 29.9f in the spot the Alexandrae is in.

The damage will show up later. I’m just speaking from experience. If the weather turns to double digit Celsius soon, then it may do ok. 

[Foxpalms]

18 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

The damage will show up later. I’m just speaking from experience. If the weather turns to double digit Celsius soon, then it may do ok. 

By Monday it will be 16c with a low of 12. Then a few more double digit days before the average temperatures 9c with a low of 5c. Since the temperature has risen above freezing I think I might see some brown spots on it but it's definitely not dead. I know palms can show more damage when it warms up but I would be surprised if the damage is serve it doesn't look bad. The cunninghamiana is completely undamaged they are definitely more hardy than Alexandrae.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Foxpalms

[Ryland]

It's already -5.1ºC at 10pm and the forecast overnight low was -4, which was to happen for a couple hours just before sunrise... this is a really severe freeze with long duration - tomorrow's high of 1ºC isn't expected until late afternoon before going below freezing again, so I think everything is going to be blitzed.  The Trachycarpus should be ok I guess.

[kinzyjr]

16 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

@kinzyjrThe archontophoenix Alexandrae is slightly discolored and has a slightly mottled look to it. But it doesn't look too bad after a 28f night and 29.9f in the spot the Alexandrae is in.

Hope it stays that way.  Be on the lookout for symptoms later as @Tyrone mentioned.  I had one that looked pretty good after a cold event with a lot of wind and rain.  A few weeks later it developed an infection in the crown.

[cbmnz]

I have documented the experience with my one in Archontophoenix alexandrae -freeze damage and recovery.  in the freeze damage forum. It seemed like it had minimal damage at first but went into decline after that before bouncing back nicely. This was with much warmer daytime temps. Will be surprised if that one shows no further effects therefore.

Since it's potted I personally would have brought it indoors, if that was an option that was possible  .(unless the point was to test limits and feasibility, in which case understand why would leave it outside) .

[Foxpalms]

53 minutes ago, cbmnz said:

I have documented the experience with my one in Archontophoenix alexandrae -freeze damage and recovery.  in the freeze damage forum. It seemed like it had minimal damage at first but went into decline after that before bouncing back nicely. This was with much warmer daytime temps. Will be surprised if that one shows no further effects therefore.

Since it's potted I personally would have brought it indoors, if that was an option that was possible  .(unless the point was to test limits and feasibility, in which case understand why would leave it outside) .

Yes I was trying to test it through the freeze since I have the intention of planting it out at some point in ground. It's also only a small palm 2-3ft so I'm presuming it will also be a bit hardier when bigger. This freeze is much colder than what we get most winters so if it can survive this especially considering it's size it should be good long term here. You are lucky to be at 37N compared to 51N here so the day time temperature rise much higher in winter. That being said most winters after a freeze the temperature rises 5-9c above freezing possibly more. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Foxpalms

[Tyrone]

2 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

Yes I was trying to test it through the freeze since I have the intention of planting it out at some point in ground. It's also only a small palm 2-3ft so I'm presuming it will also be a bit hardier when bigger. This freeze is much colder than what we get most winters so if it can survive this especially considering it's size it should be good long term here. You are lucky to be at 37N compared to 51N here so the day time temperature rise much higher in winter. That being said most winters after a freeze the temperature rises 5-9c above freezing possibly more. 

It’s worth the experiment I reckon. I think so many can limit themselves in what they can grow by just looking at what grows in others gardens in the area and assuming that this or that doesn’t grow there. You guys grow bananas at 51N somehow, so if you can do that why not try an Archontophoenix. Just warning that it may look ugly for a while, but they grow fast and can grow out of damage well provided they get some warmth at some point. 

[Foxpalms]

I was in central London this evening taking photos of some of the palms and exotics. You can really see just how mild it has been there during this freeze. The photos are from the city of London and The city of Westminster. The howea forsteriana near st Paul's cathedral is completely undamaged. Near Bank there is a planting of Mediterranean's fan palms and cannas, it's so mild in that part of London the cannas are completely undamaged and one Is even flowering. It definitely confirms my suspicion on just how mild that part of London is the Davis station said the coldest it got to during this event is 29f but im sure some parts of the city of London were even milder than that. Lots of other kentia palms outside in pots undamaged around central London. Around covent garden there were lots of exotics. There was a birds of paradise completely undamaged by the cold it just had some shred on the leaves from the wind. There was an enste banana in a slightly colder spot planted in the ground, all the leaves were damaged however it looked alive and the center leaf looked fine, so I think it should recover. There were a few smaller colourful plants planted, which I think are cordyline fruticosa that were completely undamaged. @Axel AmsterdamI also managed to also find a swiss cheese plant outside a restaurant completely undamaged. @UK_PalmsI think this confirms that howea forsteriana are long term in central London and bad freezes won't kill them off every 10-20 years.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Foxpalms

[Foxpalms]

Here is an update on the bougainvillea tonight in West Kensington in the bourough of Hammersmith and Fulham. It looks completely fine and it even still has it's flowers.