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Washingtonia filifera identification


Armata79

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Hi everyone,

I heard that alot washingtonia filifera are actually hybridised and pure one's are hard to find. So it would be great of you guys to help me identify the right washingtonia species on the attached images. The seller is a big nursery in the  Elche/ Alicante area in Spain and those pieces are labeled as filifera. 

Thanks in advance!

Screenshot_20221128-194054_Gallery.thumb.jpg.43aa7a3350629beabf526b64dcccdbf6.jpgScreenshot_20221128-194039_Gallery.thumb.jpg.c8faefb22496e9f0571ed1ac10fe655b.jpg

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19 minutes ago, RJ said:

I’m no expert but those teeth make them look like they have some robusta in them…

 

http://palmvrienden.net/gblapalmeraie/2017/07/05/how-to-recognize-the-difference-between-washingtonia-filifera-and-robusta/

Thanks for your evaluation RJ.  For me as well when i saw the teeth and the little brownish lines at the beginning of the leaves made me think it might be a hybrid...

And thanks for the link!

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1 hour ago, Armata79 said:

Hi everyone,

I heard that alot washingtonia filifera are actually hybridised and pure one's are hard to find. So it would be great of you guys to help me identify the right washingtonia species on the attached images. The seller is a big nursery in the  Elche/ Alicante area in Spain and those pieces are labeled as filifera. 

Thanks in advance!

Screenshot_20221128-194054_Gallery.thumb.jpg.43aa7a3350629beabf526b64dcccdbf6.jpgScreenshot_20221128-194039_Gallery.thumb.jpg.c8faefb22496e9f0571ed1ac10fe655b.jpg

Another nursery sells filiferas in bigger sizes and they differ from the teeth. Are they more "pure" or does filifera  generally change the look of the petiole base with age? See attached images. THANKS in advance

IMG-20221121-WA0043.thumb.jpg.e0347ad5ee18bc8b4b6f3b240268bccf.jpgIMG-20221121-WA0040.thumb.jpg.59fed0df01a42056983af7cd29f02422.jpg

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33 minutes ago, Armata79 said:

Thanks for your evaluation RJ.  For me as well when i saw the teeth and the little brownish lines at the beginning of the leaves made me think it might be a hybrid...

And thanks for the link!

Yes the teeth in the first post look a bit too prominent/aggressive. Also pure Filifera will not have any coloration on the bases of the petioles. They should be entirely green. If you can see a splash of red/purple/brown on the petiole base, it indicates the presence of Robusta genetics. It's hard to say for sure whether they are totally green in those images.

The 2nd batch of photos look more Filifera-like with less prominent teeth and totally green looking petiole bases. They are more likely to be pure filifera but in truth they could be hybridised to a degree as well and just very Filifera dominant. If there isn't many fibres present on the frond tips that is another sign of potential hybrids.

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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16 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Yes the teeth in the first post look a bit too prominent/aggressive. Also pure Filifera will not have any coloration on the bases of the petioles. They should be entirely green. If you can see a splash of red/purple/brown on the petiole base, it indicates the presence of Robusta genetics. It's hard to say for sure whether they are totally green in those images.

The 2nd batch of photos look more Filifera-like with less prominent teeth and totally green looking petiole bases. They are more likely to be pure filifera but in truth they could be hybridised to a degree as well and just very Filifera dominant. If there isn't many fibres present on the frond tips that is another sign of potential hybrids.

Thanks UK_Palms for your detailled estimation and knowledge. In the first batch there is for sure some coloration, but not all of the leaves have them and its mainly like a different coulered line that goes upwards along the petioles.

In the second batch the petioles are like you have said completely green and less "armed" but have the leaves generally have less fibres. 

Difficult...

 

On the following picture its better to see the petiole base of the first batch:

Screenshot_20221128-213356_Gallery.thumb.jpg.907f4d711be1ea56208aaa510f81dba0.jpg

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@Armata79 That first batch is definitely Filifera dominant hybrids. They will grow to look almost identical to Filifera, even though they aren't pure. The petiole bases look almost entirely green like Filifera, but as mentioned the thorns are just too prominent/aggressive for pure Filifera, which actually have hardly any thorns on the petioles.

Here is one of the pure Filifera's growing in north London showing almost no spikes/thorns and entirely green petiole bases. There are actually barely any spikes whatsoever and they are tiny to the point that they are not really visible. That Filifera is over 35 foot tall now and the pictures are 3-4 years old now. The first ones you posted definitely aren't pure Filifera.

489930C568B048078E718FD6804FC70B.jpg.feaf4d13d34c1f07dbf9f4321aa095f0.jpg.fddb8901a05cb018ea4d98cd4e6771be.jpg

Washie-7.jpg.80556f04b9048f13ee2a2f0ec70e9a38.jpg.756393a0cb0b109f521802f05c0a01c9.jpg

 

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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9 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

@Armata79 That first batch is definitely Filifera dominant hybrids. They will grow to look almost identical to Filifera, even though they aren't pure. The petiole bases look almost entirely green like Filifera, but as mentioned the thorns are just too prominent/aggressive for pure Filifera, which actually have hardly any thorns on the petioles.

Here is one of the pure Filifera's growing in north London showing almost no spikes/thorns and entirely green petiole bases. There are actually barely any spikes whatsoever and they are tiny to the point that they are not really visible. That Filifera is over 35 foot tall now and the pictures are 3-4 years old now. The first ones you posted definitely aren't pure Filifera.

489930C568B048078E718FD6804FC70B.jpg.feaf4d13d34c1f07dbf9f4321aa095f0.jpg.fddb8901a05cb018ea4d98cd4e6771be.jpg

Washie-7.jpg.80556f04b9048f13ee2a2f0ec70e9a38.jpg.756393a0cb0b109f521802f05c0a01c9.jpg

 

Thanks, i think i agree with the filifera domiant hybrids. I might buy one specimen of the 2nd batch.

That' s some really nice filifera specimen you showed there - yeah fullfills every trait of a pure one. The whole garden by the way looks gorgeous, the palms look really happy and obviously they seem to like the southern england climate. 

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1 hour ago, Armata79 said:

Thanks, i think i agree with the filifera domiant hybrids. I might buy one specimen of the 2nd batch.

That' s some really nice filifera specimen you showed there - yeah fullfills every trait of a pure one. The whole garden by the way looks gorgeous, the palms look really happy and obviously they seem to like the southern england climate. 

Also there are pretty much no spines/thorns towards the end of the Filifera petiole. The teeth get less aggressive and more irregularly placed on both types and hybrids, but pure Filifera doesn't really have any spines at all on the final 1/4 of the frond. You would really need to inspect it up close to get definite confirmation. 

Washingtoniabladsteeleinde.jpg.fcc1f45e400803a91a7c8075b29a4f9a.jpg

 

Filibusta hybrids will have the spines going right up to the end of the petiole still. The Filifera-dominant hybrid below has the spines going right along the whole length of the petiole, despite also having an almost complete green petiole base like Filifera. The ones in your second pictures could be pure Filifera, but you would need to see the petioles in more detail.

Washingtoniafilibustafilifera.jpg.1557642fdf6a978b065ff5aac244da07.jpg

 

Filifera dominant hybrids look just as good as regular Filifera in my opinion, with some added wet-cold protection from the Robusta genetics. They get a bit more height and should be faster growing than pure Filifera. The big one in Wimbledon, south London is probably a Filifera-dominant hybrid. Almost entirely green petiole bases but spines go along the whole length of petiole. It looked way more Filifera-like when it was smaller though. Hybrids lose that shorter, compact look more quickly after 20-30 years. It's much easier to tell them apart from pure-Filifera at that stage as the trunk elongates. Even Filifera-dominant hybrids will stretch a fair bit more than pure Filifera.

387471625_Screenshot2022-11-28at22_47_35.thumb.png.bc077affad0f7412a2a4f4ef93a80723.png

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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30 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Also there are pretty much no spines/thorns towards the end of the Filifera petiole. The teeth get less aggressive and more irregularly placed on both types and hybrids, but pure Filifera doesn't really have any spines at all on the final 1/4 of the frond. You would really need to inspect it up close to get definite confirmation. 

Washingtoniabladsteeleinde.jpg.fcc1f45e400803a91a7c8075b29a4f9a.jpg

 

Filibusta hybrids will have the spines going right up to the end of the petiole still. The Filifera-dominant hybrid below has the spines going right along the whole length of the petiole, despite also having an almost complete green petiole base like Filifera. The ones in your second pictures could be pure Filifera, but you would need to see the petioles in more detail.

Washingtoniafilibustafilifera.jpg.1557642fdf6a978b065ff5aac244da07.jpg

 

Filifera dominant hybrids look just as good as regular Filifera in my opinion, with some added wet-cold protection from the Robusta genetics. They get a bit more height and should be faster growing than pure Filifera. The big one in Wimbledon, south London is probably a Filifera-dominant hybrid. Almost entirely green petiole bases but spines go along the whole length of petiole. It looked way more Filifera-like when it was smaller though. Hybrids lose that shorter, compact look more quickly after 20-30 years. It's much easier to tell them apart from pure-Filifera at that stage as the trunk elongates. Even Filifera-dominant hybrids will stretch a fair bit more than pure Filifera.

387471625_Screenshot2022-11-28at22_47_35.thumb.png.bc077affad0f7412a2a4f4ef93a80723.png

 

Yeahh i defenetly need to have a closer look at the edge of the petiole next time in december. So far as i can notice on my picture the teeth aren't existent at the edge of the petiole.Screenshot_20221129-004255_Gallery.thumb.jpg.0d0487358af8e5d5f0502a5cf7a56819.jpg According to this it would mean its pure filiferas there.

For me all washingtonias look great, but as i am acutually situated in Austria (but buying every year some mediterranean plants in southern Spain) the "right" cold hardy filifera to choose is very important. We do have some cold winters there and robusta wouldnt make it - Filibusta I am not shure.

 

 

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But then there is also the filifera’s of Sailorbold which had similar teeth when they were smaller. I agree that it seems that adult filifera’s always seem to have tiny teeth though.

 

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35 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

 

But then there is also the filifera’s of Sailorbold which had similar teeth when they were smaller. I agree that it seems that adult filifera’s always seem to have tiny teeth though.

 

Hi Axel, thanks for diving into the topic. Yeahh those filiferas of Sailorbold had quite big teeth -a useful and interesting link you sent there for sure.

As far as i know only bigger specimens are clearly distinguishable. There are just so many contradictions in identifying filiferas and robustas its somehow depressing^^.

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1 hour ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

 

But then there is also the filifera’s of Sailorbold which had similar teeth when they were smaller. I agree that it seems that adult filifera’s always seem to have tiny teeth though.

 

Do u have more pics 

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5 hours ago, Armata79 said:

... i found a great blog article about a day trip to Palm Canyon/ California where Washingtonia filifera is native. There are some pictures of the leaves and teeth of the "real pure" filifera:

http://www.marriedtoplants.com/palms/palm-canyon-washingtonia-filifera/

 

Pure filifera and robusta

palm-canyon-washingtonia-filifera-petiole-detail.jpg.87dba9a1f148a2aa97c91905499a8d03.jpg

IMG_20220730_121954_HDR.jpg

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