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Crocodile range in Florida


RedRabbit

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I recently read the crocodile living in Sanibel survived Hurricane Ian and is still on the island. That made me wonder, does anyone know of them living year-round north of there? I understand one lived in Lake Tarpon for a few years before it was removed, but I’m not aware of any others north of Sanibel.

Also, how far north do they go on the east coast? 

Edited by RedRabbit
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Westchase | 9b 10a  ◆  Nokomis | 10a  ◆  St. Petersburg | 10a 10b 

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29 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

I recently read the crocodile living in Sanibel survived Hurricane Ian and is still on the island. That made me wonder, does anyone know of them living year-round north of there? I understand one lived in Lake Tarpon for a few years before it was removed, but I’m not aware of any others north of Sanibel.

Also, how far north do they go on the east coast? 

iNat map data:

Overall, currently documented range:

1776753151_Screenshot2022-11-26at21-11-41AmericanCrocodile(Crocodylusacutus).thumb.png.bc96eb64efbbec83c72b9fc701ebad09.png

Florida- specific:

1857073059_Screenshot2022-11-26at21-12-05AmericanCrocodile(Crocodylusacutus).thumb.png.041fb1b2561f194284d133d82f6fd52e.png

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The crocodiles are moving north! One was seen in the ocean around Daytona Beach, Florida recently. The Florida crocodile is not the big boy when compared to his Australian and African cousins. The largest in Florida are approximately 16 feet long and rather skinny (400-500 lb’s). Hey 16 foot Florida alligator would likely weigh in the 1,000 pound category.

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What you look for is what is looking

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18 minutes ago, bubba said:

The crocodiles are moving north! One was seen in the ocean around Daytona Beach, Florida recently. The Florida crocodile is not the big boy when compared to his Australian and African cousins. The largest in Florida are approximately 16 feet long and rather skinny (400-500 lb’s). Hey 16 foot Florida alligator would likely weigh in the 1,000 pound category.

Daytona, wow! It really makes me wonder what their range would be like if it weren’t for the Miami metro area limiting them. I get the sense their natural range might be similar to the current distribution of iguanas.

10 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

iNat map data:

Overall, currently documented range:

1776753151_Screenshot2022-11-26at21-11-41AmericanCrocodile(Crocodylusacutus).thumb.png.bc96eb64efbbec83c72b9fc701ebad09.png

Florida- specific:

1857073059_Screenshot2022-11-26at21-12-05AmericanCrocodile(Crocodylusacutus).thumb.png.041fb1b2561f194284d133d82f6fd52e.png

Thanks, that’s interesting. It looks like they’ve been seen around Pine Island… I thought I saw one when I was in Punta Gorda last, but it was too far to be sure. 

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Westchase | 9b 10a  ◆  Nokomis | 10a  ◆  St. Petersburg | 10a 10b 

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1 hour ago, RedRabbit said:

  It really makes me wonder what their range would be like if it weren’t for the Miami metro area limiting them. I get the sense their natural range might be similar to the current distribution of iguanas.

 

Considering they are strictly relegated to salt / pretty much salt water habitats, fairly unlikely they'd stray too far inland from the immediate coastline, thus limiting how common of a sight they would be.  They also prefer relatively un- altered stretches of habitat, more so than Alligators or Caimens which is one reason i'd expect to see them exploring / expanding into new territory further north than the docu'ed. range on the west coast vs. the east ( far less prime habitat left between Miami and roughly the space coast.. Probably too cold to hang around all year further north than roughly that area )

On that note,  it's a little bit of a head scratcher why the A. C. range isn't more extensive in the Gulf of CA..  Could be no one is looking for them, could be the N. Gulf is just too chilly in winter, sending summer wanders back south ...for now anyway..  or maybe the lack of large or extensive Mangroves to provide cover from the sun / habitat for prey along those areas of the Gulf is a limiting factor... Other than that, very little disturbance / development to the "basic" coastal habitats along the majority of Sonora, or the gulf-facing shores of Baja..

If it ever became established in FL. Morelet's Crocodile would be the most likely species to " become fairly common " since, unlike American Crocs, Morelet's tends to prefer freshwater.. One or two escapees have been caught there, but no wild-born specimens.  Current range of Morelet's is close enough to the S. TX. / Mex. border that i'm a little surprised not  to hear of sightings from the lower Rio Grande near Brownsville/ Matamoros, or Reynosa / McAllen.  A matter of time, perhaps?

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31 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:



If it ever became established in FL. Morelet's Crocodile would be the most likely species to " become fairly common " since, unlike American Crocs, Morelet's tends to prefer freshwater.. One or two escapees have been caught there, but no wild-born specimens. 

Current range of Morelet's is close enough to the S. TX. / Mex. border that   ** i'm a little surprised not  to hear of sightings from the lower Rio Grande near Brownsville/ Matamoros, or Reynosa / McAllen.**   A matter of time, perhaps?

** Scratch that.. Apparently there have been sightings of Morelet's from the Rio Grande, just none posted to iNat  -yet.

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I remember in recent years a couple have been sighted on the beach at Cocoa Beach and Melbourne. Where they went after that is unknown. I think there may be one or two in the Loxahatchee River in Jupiter.  But I think winters like the winter of 2009-10 will push them back into south FL,  like iguanas.

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Eric

Orlando, FL

zone 9b/10a

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/7/2022 at 10:32 AM, Eric in Orlando said:

I was actually just going post this link:

https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2022/12/08/rare-sighting-8-foot-long-american-crocodile-spotted-on-brevard-county-beach/

Maybe crocodiles are making a comeback and are re-populating Florida. 

Edited by Jimbean
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Brevard County, Fl

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/26/2022 at 8:40 PM, RedRabbit said:

I recently read the crocodile living in Sanibel survived Hurricane Ian and is still on the island. That made me wonder, does anyone know of them living year-round north of there? I understand one lived in Lake Tarpon for a few years before it was removed, but I’m not aware of any others north of Sanibel.

Also, how far north do they go on the east coast? 

They don't, but wayward individuals are known to venture up the coast now and then. There was the one on the east coast last week, and in 2013 an 11 footer made its way all the way up to Tarpon Springs on the west coast.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/environment/wildlife/croc-caught-in-lake-tarpon-was-a-champion-traveler-swimming-350-miles-from/2134961/

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On 11/27/2022 at 10:45 AM, Silas_Sancona said:

Considering they are strictly relegated to salt / pretty much salt water habitats, fairly unlikely they'd stray too far inland from the immediate coastline, thus limiting how common of a sight they would be.  They also prefer relatively un- altered stretches of habitat, more so than Alligators or Caimens which is one reason i'd expect to see them exploring / expanding into new territory further north than the docu'ed. range on the west coast vs. the east ( far less prime habitat left between Miami and roughly the space coast.. Probably too cold to hang around all year further north than roughly that area )

On that note,  it's a little bit of a head scratcher why the A. C. range isn't more extensive in the Gulf of CA..  Could be no one is looking for them, could be the N. Gulf is just too chilly in winter, sending summer wanders back south ...for now anyway..  or maybe the lack of large or extensive Mangroves to provide cover from the sun / habitat for prey along those areas of the Gulf is a limiting factor... Other than that, very little disturbance / development to the "basic" coastal habitats along the majority of Sonora, or the gulf-facing shores of Baja..

If it ever became established in FL. Morelet's Crocodile would be the most likely species to " become fairly common " since, unlike American Crocs, Morelet's tends to prefer freshwater.. One or two escapees have been caught there, but no wild-born specimens.  Current range of Morelet's is close enough to the S. TX. / Mex. border that i'm a little surprised not  to hear of sightings from the lower Rio Grande near Brownsville/ Matamoros, or Reynosa / McAllen.  A matter of time, perhaps?

C. acutus indeed prefers saline habitats but isn't necessarily strictly restricted to them (there is a very well known large male in Everglades NP that lives in a lake that is largely freshwater). You're right that they still wouldn't likely stray too far from the coast in FL (as we see in ENP),  however that has more to do with increased competition from alligators. We see this in other places with a separate freshwater species such as southern Mexico and Belize with Morelet's crocs, but not in places like Costa Rica where you have competition-less C. acutus inhabiting far upstream in freshwater rivers (ex. Rio Tarcoles). Spectacled caiman in Costa Rica are too small to present competition

Regarding C. moreletii, not saying I'm rooting for climate change, but I would not mind seeing them make their way to the United States. With that said, whereas alligators and American crocodiles largely coexist peacefully with slightly different niches (salinity and dietary differences), morelets crocodiles would represent direct competition as they occupy virtually the same ecological niche as alligators with their preference for freshwater and generalist diet. It would be interesting to see how their range extremes meeting in south TX would play out

Edited by cocoforcoconuts
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On 11/28/2022 at 3:14 PM, Eric in Orlando said:

I remember in recent years a couple have been sighted on the beach at Cocoa Beach and Melbourne. Where they went after that is unknown. I think there may be one or two in the Loxahatchee River in Jupiter.  But I think winters like the winter of 2009-10 will push them back into south FL,  like iguanas.

We must also consider that winters like that act as a strong selective sweep on the gene pool for cold tolerance, so tropical species in south Florida (both native and invasive) over time will likely become less susceptible to them.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that a 2009-2010 winter repeated exactly the same would create a significantly smaller dent in python/croc/iguana/etc. populations now.

Edited by cocoforcoconuts
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7 minutes ago, cocoforcoconuts said:

C. acutus indeed prefers saline habitats but isn't necessarily strictly restricted to them (there is a very well known large male in Everglades NP that lives in a lake that is fresh-barely brackish). You're right that they still wouldn't likely stray too far from the coast in FL (as we see in ENP),  however that has more to do with increased competition from alligators. We see this in other places with a separate freshwater species such as southern Mexico and Belize with Morelet's crocs, but not in places like Costa Rica where you have competition-less C. acutus inhabiting far upstream in freshwater rivers (ex. Rio Tarcoles).

Regarding C. moreletii, not saying I'm rooting for climate change, but I would not mind seeing them make their way to the United States. With that said, whereas alligators and American crocodiles largely coexist peacefully with slightly different niches (salinity and dietary differences), morelets crocodiles would represent direct competition as they occupy virtually the same ecological niche as alligators with their preference for freshwater and generalist diet. It would be interesting to see how their range extremes meeting in south TX would play out

It's interesting thought for sure... After i'd posted, i found several reports from the lower Rio Grande of Morelet's being sighted there..  A couple of the articles stated that some may have been placed there intentionally, while something else i'd seen suggested it was possible they made their way there on their own.. Regardless, like when anything else "new" moves into new territory, will be interesting to see how everyone gets alone, if Morelet's were to establish themselves, and continue expanding further out from that part of the RGV.

1 minute ago, cocoforcoconuts said:

We must also consider that winters like that act as a strong selective sweep for cold tolerance, so tropical species in south Florida (both native and invasive) over time will likely become less susceptible to them.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that a 2009-2010 winter repeated exactly the same would create a significantly smaller dent in python/croc/iguana/etc. populations now.

Another interesting look at how tolerant many animals ( and plants) we'd view as tropical can adapt when they expand ( ..or are accidentally / purposely introduced ) into new areas..  Look at Great Tailed Grackles and how they have ..essentially secured new territory ..fairly rapidly as well..  after moving north out of Mexico.. There in FL.,  Dilemma Orchid Bees continue to expand into new areas, despite the "assumption" a really cold winter would have knocked them out..

I frequently look over iNat and E-Bird observation maps to see what less common critters are showing up in larger numbers in areas many would think they couldn't survive in..  Just found recent sightings from last June  of American Flamingo around Puerto Penasco,.. That's on top of sightings of that sp., ..maybe a couple others in / around both San Diego and S.F. Bay. 

Sure, those could be escapees ( Pretty sure the San Fran. Bay Chilean Flamingo is... ), but certainly possible some of the birds in San Diego,  and those seen in Puerto Penasco may be birds that are exploring potential new territory ..In the case of American Flamingo anyway..  "San Diego" Flamingo(s) have been living the good life there for years, showing that yes, they can survive in much less ideal areas .."Ideal" being our assumption of what is ideal for their survival..

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10 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

It's interesting thought for sure... After i'd posted, i found several reports from the lower Rio Grande of Morelet's being sighted there..  A couple of the articles stated that some may have been placed there intentionally, while something else i'd seen suggested it was possible they made their way there on their own.. Regardless, like when anything else "new" moves into new territory, will be interesting to see how everyone gets alone, if Morelet's were to establish themselves, and continue expanding further out from that part of the RGV.

Another interesting look at how tolerant many animals ( and plants) we'd view as tropical can adapt when they expand ( ..or are accidentally / purposely introduced ) into new areas..  Look at Great Tailed Grackles and how they have ..essentially secured new territory ..fairly rapidly as well..  after moving north out of Mexico.. There in FL.,  Dilemma Orchid Bees continue to expand into new areas, despite the "assumption" a really cold winter would have knocked them out..

I frequently look over iNat and E-Bird observation maps to see what less common critters are showing up in larger numbers in areas many would think they couldn't survive in..  Just found recent sightings from last June  of American Flamingo around Puerto Penasco,.. That's on top of sightings of that sp., ..maybe a couple others in / around both San Diego and S.F. Bay. 

Sure, those could be escapees ( Pretty sure the San Fran. Bay Chilean Flamingo is... ), but certainly possible some of the birds in San Diego,  and those seen in Puerto Penasco may be birds that are exploring potential new territory ..In the case of American Flamingo anyway..  "San Diego" Flamingo(s) have been living the good life there for years, showing that yes, they can survive in much less ideal areas .."Ideal" being our assumption of what is ideal for their survival..

I do this as well lol.

For non-natives, another great resource for this activity is eddmaps

https://www.eddmaps.org/distribution/

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4 minutes ago, cocoforcoconuts said:

I do this as well lol.

For non-natives, another great resource for this activity is eddmaps

https://www.eddmaps.org/distribution/

:greenthumb: Have looked over this site.. another good tool for monitoring for sure..  I have noticed some minor inconsistencies among reported data, that occurs w/ every site though.  ..Know for sure Brown Anole have established themselves in some areas here, and may be doing the same around S. Cal.  Seen Greenhouse Frogs here as well.

Growing up in California, and looking through an old addition of a field guide from Audubon, it has been interesting seeing all the "new" bird sp. which seem to be expanding their ranges in greater numbers / establishing themselves in parts of the state either north out of Mexico / the greater Southwest, or west from the Plains thus far in my life time, many un-aided by humans. 

 Looking over numerous "suggested" range shift maps from Audubon the last couple days,  will be interesting to see if some of the birds they're thinking may find themselves her, actually end up here..  A few wading birds they keep in the east already can be seen / have been seen recently here..  Most exotic may be the Northern Jacana that hung out in Tucson for over a year, inc. through a chilly winter.

...On the flip side, there are obvious downsides to certain plants / animals establishing themselves in new places in a warmer world.  Buffelgrass and Stink Net being two big negative non natives to establish themselves here in AZ.  Cuban Treefrogs, Pythons, Common Myna, Brazilian Pepper being among the more notable detrimental non natives there in FL.


As far as Crocodiles,  they did occur here, long time ago of course....    Always thought how weird would it be, provided ideal habitat established itself beforehand, -and they were left alone-,  that they started showing up again in the northern Gulf of CA. again.  Consistently warmer winters in the future would = that part of the Gulf not cooling off as much as it might have this time of year in the past,  or at this time.. /  warming up to an Crocodile's ideal temp. sooner in the spring 🤔

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3 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

:greenthumb: Have looked over this site.. another good tool for monitoring for sure..  I have noticed some minor inconsistencies among reported data, that occurs w/ every site though.  ..Know for sure Brown Anole have established themselves in some areas here, and may be doing the same around S. Cal.  Seen Greenhouse Frogs here as well.

Growing up in California, and looking through an old addition of a field guide from Audubon, it has been interesting seeing all the "new" bird sp. which seem to be expanding their ranges in greater numbers / establishing themselves in parts of the state either north out of Mexico / the greater Southwest, or west from the Plains thus far in my life time, many un-aided by humans. 

 Looking over numerous "suggested" range shift maps from Audubon the last couple days,  will be interesting to see if some of the birds they're thinking may find themselves her, actually end up here..  A few wading birds they keep in the east already can be seen / have been seen recently here..  Most exotic may be the Northern Jacana that hung out in Tucson for over a year, inc. through a chilly winter.

...On the flip side, there are obvious downsides to certain plants / animals establishing themselves in new places in a warmer world.  Buffelgrass and Stink Net being two big negative non natives to establish themselves here in AZ.  Cuban Treefrogs, Pythons, Common Myna, Brazilian Pepper being among the more notable detrimental non natives there in FL.


As far as Crocodiles,  they did occur here, long time ago of course....    Always thought how weird would it be, provided ideal habitat established itself beforehand, -and they were left alone-,  that they started showing up again in the northern Gulf of CA. again.  Consistently warmer winters in the future would = that part of the Gulf not cooling off as much as it might have this time of year in the past,  or at this time.. /  warming up to an Crocodile's ideal temp. sooner in the spring 🤔

The northern gulf of California is simply far too cold unfortunately. The screenshots are of monthly air and water temp averages for Puerto Peñasco, Sonoro and Marco Island, Florida which is about as far north as C. acutus is regularly found. The crocs can withstand brief cold snaps, but they can't be consistently dropping that low and they need the daily highs to climb back up (they are basically the coconut palms of Florida fauna 😂). Moreover, they need the warm water for refuge. The last screenshot is of the water temps in Tampa Bay, and even that is significantly warmer, yet only occasional wayward crocs make their way up there and it is almost certain the ones that do would not survive in TB in the event of a 2009-10 bad winter.

There is other issues too including the lack of suitable habitat with vegetative cover and the dry climate itself. For successful nesting they need high levels of humidity in their nests with a source fo fresh water nearby since the hatchlings' salt glands are not sufficient enough to live in salt water yet.

Screen Shot 2022-12-20 at 3.23.25 PM.png

Screen Shot 2022-12-20 at 3.23.57 PM.png

Screen Shot 2022-12-20 at 3.24.34 PM.png

Screen Shot 2022-12-20 at 3.27.09 PM.png

Screen Shot 2022-12-20 at 3.34.01 PM.png

Edited by cocoforcoconuts
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5 hours ago, cocoforcoconuts said:

C. acutus indeed prefers saline habitats but isn't necessarily strictly restricted to them (there is a very well known large male in Everglades NP that lives in a lake that is largely freshwater). You're right that they still wouldn't likely stray too far from the coast in FL (as we see in ENP),  however that has more to do with increased competition from alligators. We see this in other places with a separate freshwater species such as southern Mexico and Belize with Morelet's crocs, but not in places like Costa Rica where you have competition-less C. acutus inhabiting far upstream in freshwater rivers (ex. Rio Tarcoles). Spectacled caiman in Costa Rica are too small to present competition

Regarding C. moreletii, not saying I'm rooting for climate change, but I would not mind seeing them make their way to the United States. With that said, whereas alligators and American crocodiles largely coexist peacefully with slightly different niches (salinity and dietary differences), morelets crocodiles would represent direct competition as they occupy virtually the same ecological niche as alligators with their preference for freshwater and generalist diet. It would be interesting to see how their range extremes meeting in south TX would play out

To elaborate on the last point, the alligators are bigger, but the morelets crocs are more athletic. Whereas both species share similar dispositions/agressiveness.

A clue could lie with the American crocodile/Cuban crocodile (C. rhombifer) dynamic in Cuba. Despite being smaller than C. acutus, the cubans are behaviorally dominant over them in areas around their remaining stronghold of the Zapata swamp in SW Cuba. ***BUT*** it must be said that Cuban crocodiles are probably the single most athletic, fast, explosive, etc. species on Earth with an infamously ill-tempered disposition, so not exactly an apples to apples comparison between A. mississippiensis/C. moreletii and C. acutus/C. rhombifer

Edited by cocoforcoconuts
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34 minutes ago, cocoforcoconuts said:

The northern gulf of California is simply far too cold unfortunately. The screenshots are of monthly air and water temp averages for Puerto Peñasco, Sonoro and Marco Island, Florida which is about as far north as C. acutus is regularly found. The crocs can withstand brief cold snaps, but they can't be consistently dropping that low and they need the daily highs to climb back up (they are basically the coconut palms of Florida fauna 😂). Moreover, they need the warm water for refuge. The last screenshot is of the water temps in Tampa Bay, and even that is significantly warmer, yet only occasional wayward crocs make their way up there and it is almost certain the ones that do would not survive in TB in the event of a 2009-10 bad winter.

There is other issues too including the lack of suitable habitat with vegetative cover and the dry climate itself. For successful nesting they need high levels of humidity in their nests with a source fo fresh water nearby since the hatchlings' salt glands are not sufficient enough to live in salt water yet.

Screen Shot 2022-12-20 at 3.23.25 PM.png

Screen Shot 2022-12-20 at 3.23.57 PM.png

Screen Shot 2022-12-20 at 3.24.34 PM.png

Screen Shot 2022-12-20 at 3.27.09 PM.png

Screen Shot 2022-12-20 at 3.34.01 PM.png

It's an intriguing thought for sure.. 

Aside from sun angle / consistently less solar heating being provided  because of that, one big factor that pushes SST's in the N. GOC low in the winter months is northerly flow over the gulf from passing cold fronts over CA and AZ.. In a warmer world, where there might.. (**Might** because there's no way to know for sure ) be less and less influence from those, and more high pressure slung over the lower S.W. through future winters, providing -some- deg. of solar insolation,  i could see SSTs trend up by 4-8 deg thru the coolest months.. Probably still too cool to sustain Crocs that far north, but opening up a wider window in the year that they might visit, and stick around for more than a month or two..

Thinking ideal vegetation cover would be a bigger limiting factor, though, with less cold air intrusions occurring, larger Mangrove sp. / Buttonwood, and Mangle Dulce could establish themselves in the flats / quieter backwaters in some areas right on the coast of Sonora, which could lure in any summer wanders to have a look. Freshwater input from the Colorado into the delta could be fixed, if we really wanted to.

While humidity is horribly low once you get a few miles away from it, except maybe during monsoon season,.. coastal areas right on the Gulf can be quite humid when the wind is blowing in any direction except from the north / northwest / northeast.  Have seen dew points exceed 80F there at certain points during Monsoon season the last few years. Once you get south of  ~roughly~ Isla Tiburon / Punta Chueca, it gets pretty humid, except maybe when the wind blows from the North East.. North winds probably dry things out a bit down there, but, since they're blowing over water, imagine the drying effect is less,  compared to around Puerto Penasco, where the wind is moving air into the gulf from very dry / hot land to the north.

Overall, pretty interesting how much further north "tropical" stuff extends north in N.W. Mexico, due in part to the blocking effect of the Mex. Plateau / Sierra Occidental.

Obviously, i'm thinking over a loonngg timescale.. Doubt sightings of Crocs there would occur in my lifetime..   I have heard of possible sightings about as far north as San Carlos / Guaymas, and Bahia Kino though..  Interesting there haven't been any casual sightings in / near La Paz, or anywhere on the Eastern Cape of Baja. Gulf too wide down there to cross from Sinaloa i suppose??

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17 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

.......

Obviously, i'm thinking over a loonngg timescale.. Doubt sightings of Crocs there would occur in my lifetime..   I have heard of possible sightings about as far north as San Carlos / Guaymas, and Bahia Kino though..  Interesting there haven't been any casual sightings in / near La Paz, or anywhere on the Eastern Cape of Baja. Gulf too wide down there to cross from Sinaloa i suppose??

It's definitely not too wide, C. acutus is right there with C. porosus for the most saltwater tolerant species and they can travel remarkable distances at sea far exceeding the gap to Baja (fun fact, salties have been found with barnacles attached to their skin from being out at sea for so long!). I reckon the lack of crocs there despite the milder climate is likely due to the aforementioned lack of suitable vegetative habitat (the closest adaptable species to that kind of dry habitat would be the West African crocodile, C. suchus).

Possibly ocean currents too, but idk what the patterns are in the Gulf of Cali. Long distance itinerant saltwater and American crocs ride the ocean currents to travel such long distances despite their ectothermy. The North Brazil current could explain why the range of C. acutus doesn't extend past the Orinoco river mouth along the South American coast despite suitable habitat there. There is the black caiman (Melanosuchus niger) in those parts, but just like the gators in Florida, they are freshwater alligatorids, so I don't see why they would not be able to similarly coexist on each other's fringe. Idk, I'm just rambling at this point, one of these days I will get myself to the mouth of the Orinoco and evaluate for myself lol

Caribbean_current.png

map_cacu_800.gif

Edited by cocoforcoconuts
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11 minutes ago, cocoforcoconuts said:

It's definitely not too wide, C. acutus is right there with C. porosus for the most saltwater tolerant species and they can travel remarkable distances at sea far exceeding the gap to Baja (fun fact, salties have been found with barnacles attached to their skin from being out at sea for so long!). I reckon the lack of crocs there despite the milder climate is likely due to the aforementioned lack of suitable vegetative habitat (the closest adaptable species to that kind of dry habitat would be the West African crocodile, C. suchus).

Possibly ocean currents too, but idk what the patterns are in the Gulf of Cali. Long distance itinerant saltwater and American crocs ride the ocean currents to travel such long distances despite their ectothermy. The North Brazil current could explain why the range of C. acutus doesn't extend past the Orinoco river mouth along the South American coast despite suitable habitat there. There is the black caiman (Melanosuchus niger) in those parts, but just like the gators in Florida, they are freshwater alligatorids, so I don't see why they would not be able to similarly coexist on each other's fringe. Idk, I'm just rambling at this point, one of these days I will get myself to the mouth of the Orinoco and evaluate for myself lol

Caribbean_current.png

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:greenthumb:  I figured as much..  As you said, long distance travel isn't something they  aren't  capable of.  Swear i've heard of Crocodiles being spotted well offshore in the Caribbean in the past.

From my "continued learning" level of understanding on the subject,  currents in the GOC tend to run north along the east side ( ... along the coast of Mainland Mexico. ) but become more diffuse north of Tiburon..  with more tendency to run south along the eastern side of Baja..   No doubt i could certainly be missing something in how it all works..

From studying what helps generate our Monsoon cycles, you can see how the currents in the gulf influence how warmer water is moved north into the northern GOC, and how eddies that can form in spots off the eastern side of Baja can enhance ( ..or subdue ) the overall influx and sustainability of warmer water creeping north along mainland Mexico, and accumulating in the Northern gulf during the summer / early autumn..  I'd assume this same basic "idea" regarding current direction there might apply to any crocodiles floating around in it..

Agree that less of ...or the complete absence of...  ideal habitat  might be a bigger reason Crocs aren't seen in the before-mentioned areas of Baja Sur. Could be killed on sight when encountered as well, though i'd think stories like that would make headline waves somewhere..  I still imagine there are occasional wanders somewhere out there though.. 

Now to get down there and find 'em, lol..

 

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Regarding the python with an alligator in it’s stomach, the more usual situation is a python, who has swallowed a small alligator, who are both found deceased later when the little alligator eats it’s way through the python. Contested draw!

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What you look for is what is looking

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Tragic story but considering the large amount of alligators in the state of Florida together with their proximity to humans, in large order, it is a rarity. That stated, Disney certainly was well aware that the greatest number of their visitors come from areas that have no idea about human gator etiquette and this poor family suffered the horrible consequences.

Alligators existed in Florida well before mankind. We invaded their territory and should be knowledgeable of the necessary protocol to easily avoid this kind of tragedy. Alligators have very poor eyesight and have no appetite whatsoever for humans. We smell and taste like garbage to the alligator.

Sadly, the vast majority of these rare alligator/human tragedies involve young children, who are poorly supervised by parents. No parent should allow a small child to dance around the edge of a freshwater lake in Florida or any other southeastern state where gators are prevalent. The second most likely candidate for this tragedy are elderly people, who are gardening close to the shore of a lake. Once again, the alligator mistakes the human for valid prey because of the alligator’s poor eyesight. The most common manner of an alligator attack occurs first with the strike of the alligator tail out of the water, followed thereafter by the alligator retrieving its prey. Alligators do not eat their prey immediately. Instead, they burrow the dead animal into the side of the lake, to allow it to tenderize.

I learned all I needed to know about alligators when I was 10 years old and hung out with the caddies at the golf course. My buddies older brother gave us a lesson that was necessary when we were going into the alligator filled ponds to find golf balls. Barefooted in the water, you step on golf balls and then throw them to the shore. Suddenly my buddy shrieked and his older brother dispensed knowledge. The alligator had gone through the middle of his legs and his older brother explained to him that we smell like garbage to the alligator when we are in the water, and the alligator was simply trying to get away. He went on to explain that the only situation of real peril occurred in the event you stepped into a mother alligator’s hatchery, which were always immediately adjacent to the shore. In that event, all bets were off, but this was easily avoided by making certain that where you entered the lake there was no alligator or alligator eggs.

The truth is that alligators pose no threat to humans, if humans observe the rules of the jungle. They are majestic and incredible reptiles that are living their lives and trying to get by like the rest of us. Please read the link for further insight.

https://www.gainesville.com/story/news/2004/12/30/gatorman-nostalgic-about-waxy-hijinks-gator-pal/31679751007/

 

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What you look for is what is looking

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/27/2022 at 9:51 AM, bubba said:

The crocodiles are moving north! One was seen in the ocean around Daytona Beach, Florida recently. The Florida crocodile is not the big boy when compared to his Australian and African cousins. The largest in Florida are approximately 16 feet long and rather skinny (400-500 lb’s). Hey 16 foot Florida alligator would likely weigh in the 1,000 pound category.

400 lb lizard that's fast and possess many toofies - I'll keep my distance.

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Coral Gables, FL 8 miles North of Fairchild USDA Zone 10B

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When we went to the "crocodiledrome/cocolidrodromo" in Tecumán, State of Colima , Mexico last year, we had an unprecedented private tour (cause of COVID.lol). My frau and I were the only ones there and the gator master gave us an impromptu tour. It was very thorough.  And yes, Crocs and alligators keep their distance from humans except for the females once an unsuspecting human, oblivious to a gator nest ( dirt mound close to the water) approaches it.  They will spring into action charging with their 4 stubby legs like a horse and will leap from the water 20 yards in 2 seconds believing the human is trying to poach an egg.

 

 

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5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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IMG_20220516_120002_1.jpg

IMG_20220516_122612_1.jpg

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5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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Just now, GottmitAlex said:

IMG_20220516_120002_1.jpg

IMG_20220516_122612_1.jpg

They have both Crocs and gators.

 

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5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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The threat to humans by saltwater crocs is taken very seriously in the Northern Territory of Australia. Traps are set near population centers to capture and remove problem critters to crocodile farms.....
 

!cid_image001_jpg@01CAB094.jpg

!cid_image002_jpg@01CAB094.jpg

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The one in the photo is dead. Its only job opening in the croc farm will be to feed the others.😒

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They have been seen on Pine Island FL.  It is close to Sanibel

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Palms not just a tree also a state of mind

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On 1/11/2023 at 4:34 PM, greysrigging said:

The threat to humans by saltwater crocs is taken very seriously in the Northern Territory of Australia. Traps are set near population centers to capture and remove problem critters to crocodile farms.....
 

!cid_image001_jpg@01CAB094.jpg

!cid_image002_jpg@01CAB094.jpg

Croc ate the tire off the trailer, rim and all. 

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Coral Gables, FL 8 miles North of Fairchild USDA Zone 10B

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Bit of a worry.... lol....a popular tourist spot south west of Darwin
( Source: ABC News Darwin )
"Well this just sent a shiver down the spine 😳🐊

The Crocodile Management Team and Litchfield Rangers have removed a 3.4m saltwater crocodile from a trap at Wangi Falls.
During the Wet Season while waterholes are closed to swimming, traps and croc barriers are removed to avoid damage from fast flowing water and debris, making it easy for crocodiles to move into areas undetected.
Rangers put the trap in following reports from a member of the public that a large croc had been sighted in the water.
📸 Supplied
Please Be Crocwise and always look and adhere to no swimming signs.
G2b7HQql.jpg

E6MOdSJl.jpg

 

Edited by greysrigging
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Croc’s are a whole different ballpark when compared to alligators. To Australians, Florida crocodiles would be like little pussycats. In Australia, and other areas around the world, I would obey the signs!

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What you look for is what is looking

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They used to sell Camains at the pet stores in the 1960's here. Grateful they never established themselves in the Everglades. Aggressive and surly creatures. 

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Coral Gables, FL 8 miles North of Fairchild USDA Zone 10B

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You are allowed to keep crocodiles here, but there are strict regulations. The enclosure must be built to a high standard and it is inspected. C. porosus can be kept for 2 years (I think it's still the same) but then you have to surrender it to the parks and wildlife people. You can then get a small replacement one. Basically you can't "own" it, it's on loan for a specified time.

Freshwater Crocodiles (C. johnsonii) are also by permit, but you can keep them virtually in perpetuity.

However, the big problem is people who catch (illegally) small ones and keep them for the novelty value. When these grow too big they usually get dumped. And that could be in areas where there are normally no crocodiles (like upstream of waterfalls or big rapids). Then you have crocs loose that have no fear of people, associate people with food, and in places where people are more likely to go swimming. And that's a recipe only crocs would enjoy.

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On 2/7/2023 at 5:19 AM, Moose said:

They used to sell Camains at the pet stores in the 1960's here. Grateful they never established themselves in the Everglades. Aggressive and surly creatures. 

I'm not sure if they're the same species sold in pet stores, but there are some feral populations of spectacled Caimans in Florida! They're apparently limited in their range by cold weather though. 

 

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Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

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