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Bottle palms look yellow, and I seek advice


MiamiNorm

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Hello

A couple of healthy-looking bottle palms look yellowish as of some time.  The very bright yellow spots are 630pm low sun hitting it, I apologize. It's a crappy picture, I know. 

Do I need to give them some palm tree food with N-P-K? Are there recommendations, or can I buy something at HD? 

 

Thank you 

IMG20221022182756.jpg

Edited by MiamiNorm
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@MiamiNorm that's an odd look on the left one.  I noted the bright yellow areas are just sunlight, but on the left one it looks like the two middle fronds (pointing left and right) are frizzled and browned.  But the older frond bending down to the right seems reasonably green.  Could some of this be hurricane wind damage?  The fronds seem unusually bent downwards and kind of brownish near the base of the fronds.

For a generic decent palm fertilizer the Vigoro Palm & Ixora 8-4-8 is reasonable and easy to get.  So is the Sunniland Palm 6-1-8.  There are better options like PalmGain (from Amazon) and Florikan.  Here's my notes on palm deficiencies:

  • Nitrogen - Older fronds turn light green uniformly, new fronds remain dark green until deficiency is really severe
  • Potassium - Older fronds get translucent yellow/orange or dead spots on leaves, especially at the tips. Caryota and Arenga get random splotched dead spots in leaves. Sometimes tips are curled or frizzled. Always starts at tips of oldest leaves, moving inwards
  • Magnesium - Yellow linear bands on leaves but generally transitions to solid green at the base of each leaf. Never causes leaf tip necrosis
  • Iron - Many times caused by overly mucky soil and root rot. Starts with new spear leaves with yellow-green or even white, possibly with spots of green.
  • Manganese - Lengthwise necrotic streaks in leaves with dead and curled leaf tips. Similar to bands showing Magnesium deficiency
  • Boron - Bent or necrotic or distorted leaf tips, distorted or bent spear, bands of dead spots on new fans, spears that won't fully open
  • Water - Underwatering brown at the edges first, later followed by yellowing of the whole leaf. Overwatering can be drooping fronds turning yellowish and losing color
  • Dolomitic Lime or Azomite - Magnesium Carbonate – slower release and adds Magnesium, helps avoid Potassium deficiencies in Cuban Copernicias. 5Lb per palm on full-size Copernicias and a bit less on Kentiopsis Oliviformis
  • Garden Lime - Calcium Carbonate – fast release but works well. 5Lb per palm on full-size Copernicias and a bit less on Kentiopsis Oliviformis

The frizzled ends and dead and yellow spots at the tips looks like a Potassium deficiency.  Short term a good 2 handfuls of the above fertilizers per palm should help.  Sprinkle randomly and evenly in about a 6-8' diameter around the trunk, but don't just chuck a bunch of it at the trunk.  Long term a slow release mineral like Langbeinite (aka SulPoMag) may help prevent future deficiencies.  But you can probably keep on top of it with just regular 4x a year fertilizer applications.

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Thank you Merlin for the detailed education. No, hurricane Ian did not bother us too badly, so I doubt it's that. I've never fed or fertilized them, so your theories are likely correct. 

I will try to find the Vitoro fertilizer, and start there. 

Thanks again 

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One of those tall palms, not pictured, recently lost all of its fronds, and so the trunk just sits there at 30 or so feet tall. 

Do I need to just let it rot slowly? Will it bend in half? Or will I one day come home to that 30 foot thick trunk on top of my gazebo or the neighbor's yard? It will certainly make a big mess. 

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@MiamiNorm as a general rule all palms can take the same fertilizer, as long as it uses a good ratio for the palms and your soil.  So for example, Florida soils are super high in Phosphorus, so there's no need (and some negatives) to using a fertilizer with a high middle number in the N-P-K.  Other areas might need a different balance.  A lot of palms get Potassium deficiencies, especially if they are grown on soil that doesn't have the right pH balance for them.  So my area (Orlando) is mostly sandy and a bit acidic, but Miami is a lot higher pH.  This just affects which nutrients your palm can pull out effectively.  My soil at around 6-6.5 might have different problems than yours in the 7-8 range.  That's only a guess, I don't know what pH your soil is.  But you might get more Boron deficiencies than me, and I might get more Magnesium deficiencies than you.

The short version is that unless you've got a known specific problem (like a Boron or Manganese deficiency symptom) then most of the "palm special" fertilizers will do fine for most of your palms.

970054385_NutrientssoilpHandavailability.png.ecb5efc1fb78b7fa754ee7b8b9e6bdce.png

Regarding the 30' tall dead one...get someone to cut it down.  Palm trunks are supported by internal fibers and soft tissue.  When it dies that soft tissue rots away fairly quickly, and then it's only supported by the long stringy fibers.  It's sort of like a hollowed-out oak trunk, it's much weaker than normal and could just fall down at any random time.

For your Bottles, the browning near the leaf bases is a bit concerning.  I'd poke around the entire trunk on those and check for any soft areas.  The whole trunk should feel pretty rock hard.  Sometimes they can get internal fungal infections like Thielaviopsis or Ganoderma.  These are usually not visible from the outside but can make the trunks have soft spots.  Also make sure that no sprinklers are directly hitting the trunks, as this can also cause trunk rots.  If you can get better photos of the Bottles from the other side of the fence, that would help diagnose any issues.

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Thanks again @Merlyn

Here are some additional pictures. 

What causes a leaf to twist around like that?? 

The trunks look good and solid, and I have a sprinkler head that hits 2 midway, and I'll change that immediately. 

 

IMG20221023142011.jpg

IMG20221023141941.jpg

IMG20221023141856.jpg

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@MiamiNorm if the trunks feel good and solid, with no squishy spots, then I'd guess they just need some consistent "palm special" fertilizer and they should look much nicer by the end of next spring.  Keep in mind that any fertilizer applied now will help reduce *future* deficiency symptoms or frond issues.  Palms can't "heal" damage, so if a frond has a bunch of leaflets that are kind of messed up, they won't look any better even with the world's best fertilizer regimen.  The exception to this is nitrogen or iron deficiencies, which sometimes end up with fronds looking kind of lime-green.  Additional fertilizer can make them look better.

For the twisted frond, it might have grown out during a storm, or there could have been a transient Boron deficiency.  In Miami the soil is probably pretty alkaline, so Boron deficiencies and Manganese deficiencies are common.  In that chart I posted you'll see the availability is poor for those two.  This could explain the bent frond, yellowed and dead leaf tips, and kind of "wavy" appearance to some of the leaves. 

  • I'd get some Manganese Sulphate from HD and give each one a sprinkled handful.  I do this for my Sagos/Cycas Revoluta that tend to get "frizzle top" around here.  Make sure you get Manganese and not Magnesium, they sell both.  The 4lb bag is probably a lifetime supply. Here's a fact sheet on Manganese https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/EP267
  • For Boron deficiencies usually decaying mulch is good enough, and the 0.02% to 0.08% in most palm fertilizers is also good enough.  Your palms don't show any of the signs of serious Boron deficiencies, like crinkled spears, spears that won't open, or accordion leaf.  You could add ~2 teaspoons of 20 Mule Team Borax to a 5 gallon bucket of water, and spread it around all 3 palms.  Here's a fact sheet with symptoms: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/EP264

This palm probably shows the most deficiency signs, with "frizzle top" leaves and fronds that are unusually droopy for their age.  I'd check the areas pointed out in the below photo.  If they are firm then it's probably just in need of fertilizer.  If it's squishy then there's probably a fungal infection of some sort, either in the trunk or roots.

image.thumb.png.811a29dc933cba37694843673a4d49e2.png

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  • 2 months later...

Good morning and happy ny @Merlyn

I applied some palm fertilizer after your last post, and I will wait to hopefully see healthier palms. 

I have noticed that the top or crest of 2 of them are fairly thin. You can see the trunk taper way down to a very thin top. Is that normal? I can't imagine so. 

IMG20230103090848.jpg

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@MiamiNormbottle palms lose their unique "bottle" shape as they get taller.  If you look at the 2nd and 4th row of photos here you'll see some Fairchild Gardens palms that randomly start tapering after they get to 3-6' of trunk.  https://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Hyophorbe_lagenicaulis  So it could be "normal" or just a symptom of "not enough fertilizer" for a while.  Or it could be related to the abnormally droopy rachis that I pointed to in the earlier photo.

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Thanks again @Merlyn

I often cut the thorned seedling stalks, or whatever they're called, in the picture. I don't want more seedlings or palms. Does that hurt them perhaps? 

Look at how brown this fairly new frond is😔

IMG20230106113145.jpg

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@MiamiNormit's generally recommended to not cut off any parts that are still green.  Any cut into green tissue is a possible entry point for fungus or other diseases.  So cutting off the flower stalks might be a way for it to have gotten some kind of disease like a rachis or leaf blight.  The fronds dying off abnormally early is usually a sign of some kind of vascular or root disease, so you'd need something systemic to help cure the plant.  If those were my palms I'd give them a systemic fungicide like Banrot.  It seems expensive at about $100 for a 2lb bag, but that bag is more or less a lifetime supply for most people.  And that's a small price given the value or replacement cost of some Bottles/Spindles with 6' of trunk.  I guess I might be overly cautious about diseases, I'd just hate to lose a large, expensive, beautiful palm by taking half-measures.  Sort of "shotgun approach" with fungicide, fertilizer, and environmental fixes (like re-aiming sprinklers or improving airflow to the trunk) all at once.  If it survives and looks awesome next spring then you won't know which item was the key solution.  But if one or more dies you'll kick yourself for not trying the best reasonable course of action to fix it.  :D

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Thanks again @Merlyn

You truly are a Palmician, palm magician. 

I found that Banrot a bit cheaper at Walmart, so I will give it a try. 

You mentioned "improving airflow", and I ask about it because one of the 3 bottle palms is surrounded by nearby shrubs, other plants, and a fence. So I may have to move some based on your comment and answer. 

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I mentioned "improving airflow" because it's a common problem for nurseries.  They pack the plants all together because space = money.  The downside is that fungal infections are more common with no airflow, especially in swampy areas like Florida.  And, as they say, sunlight is the best disinfectant.  You'll see moss and fungus growing on the North side of trees and rocks and in deep shade.  The same thing happens with palms in part sun.  I don't know if that *really* matters a lot, but cutting back the crotons a bit sure wouldn't hurt!

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These are big, old bottles.   They did well there for a very long time.  I would just cut off leaves as they get brown, and get a high quality palm fertilizer, and perhaps some langbeinite, and fertilize them regularly.  Water them well.   Overall, these can have problems, but shouldn’t be very hard in South Florida.  They slow in winter, but should pick up speed in spring again.  They will take a year or two to recover.  

I have one out front.  It can be uncharacteristically troublesome.  When happy, it puts out a leaf per month, and holds 6.5 leaves, but I’ve found out seems to hate root disturbance to a degree.   Every time I dig and plant things around it, severing roots, it slows a lot and puts out small leaves for the next 6 months.   The latest surrounding plantings may have somehow killed it.  It hasn’t put out a new leaf in 6 months, and the new spear browned and died.  I’m afraid it died but just doesn’t know it yet.  

But, even the four at the gas station have a 25% mortality over time it seems…..  when one dies, they pop a baby in there in its place.  

1E7F88A4-0065-470B-9932-AAE61EA18865.thumb.jpeg.70afa41f59ccc26e1ac45bd6f53082cb.jpeg

3D542D22-3CDF-4BFE-A7A5-4D3FD2A391E0.thumb.jpeg.13cfbc808aaf060ac731526c0f1fdd9c.jpeg

Even if you lose one, plant a baby in its place.  You can keep a nice grove of them at different sizes forever.   
 

 

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good morning @Merlyn

I get all of your points above with treating my bottle palms; the $90 Banrot is cheaper than replacing a palm of my size. Hell, at 2 feet tall or so, we paid close to $150 for them, so I get it.

I searched in amazon for Etridiazole, the main ingredient of Banrot, and I found this product which is a bit cheaper than Banrot, and it's only a 10 poung bag; you had mentioned that 20 pounds is way more than I'll ever need.

Here is the link, and I ask if you think that I could try this instead realizing that the ingredients are not an exact match

https://www.amazon.com/Syngenta-Heritage-Fungicide-10-LBS/dp/B07F1BVW93/ref=asc_df_B07F1BVW93/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=343269677504&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8527149680129339064&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9052971&hvtargid=pla-776711950785&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=77503953508&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=343269677504&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8527149680129339064&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9052971&hvtargid=pla-776711950785

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@MiamiNormthere's a lot of different fungicides out there, for different diseases.  Fosetyl-Al is a systemic supposed to be good for pythium and phytopthora diseases.  Thiophanate-Methyl is supposed to control Fusarium Oxysporum, but usually by the time symptoms are obvious the palm is already beyond saving.  A study showed it did nothing against Phytopthora infections in oranges.  Etridiazole is also good for pythium and phytopthora diseases.  From my reading, Fosetyl-Al (Aliette WDG and others) is possibly the best against Phytopthora. 

So if you wanted to control possible trunk & crown infections Fosetyl-Al + Thiophanate-Methyl is a good systemic combo, and might be better than Banrot.  Edit: Aliette is probably a lot cheaper than Etridiazole and probably works better too.

Without a definitive lab diagnosis of a specific fungus or disease, everything I'm saying is just vaguely-edumacated-guesswork.  Also known as a SWAG.  It may be that it just wants a good fertilizer and no cold weather, and it'll look great by late spring.  :D

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5 hours ago, MiamiNorm said:

good morning @Merlyn

I get all of your points above with treating my bottle palms; the $90 Banrot is cheaper than replacing a palm of my size. Hell, at 2 feet tall or so, we paid close to $150 for them, so I get it.

I searched in amazon for Etridiazole, the main ingredient of Banrot, and I found this product which is a bit cheaper than Banrot, and it's only a 10 poung bag; you had mentioned that 20 pounds is way more than I'll ever need.

Here is the link, and I ask if you think that I could try this instead realizing that the ingredients are not an exact match

https://www.amazon.com/Syngenta-Heritage-Fungicide-10-LBS/dp/B07F1BVW93/ref=asc_df_B07F1BVW93/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=343269677504&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8527149680129339064&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9052971&hvtargid=pla-776711950785&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=77503953508&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=343269677504&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8527149680129339064&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9052971&hvtargid=pla-776711950785

Do you get anything like this on your bottles?   These tiny, tiny white-dot colonies?   They seem to hammer Ravenea hildebrandtii constantly, but also attack my bottles when they are under stress.  Is this whitefly?   I always presumed they were mites, but in the photos they seem to have little wings. 
 

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5C869721-89A7-4A06-9731-135305F04A2C.thumb.jpeg.61af717dd628daead7c217710b121b6d.jpeg

Under 20x lens….

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D53594D6-E959-4B26-9303-9840FCDDB7FB.thumb.jpeg.4df0203b20671aebefc74714177257cd.jpeg

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I hadn't thought of bugs or anything until your post. 

This is what I found underneath 1 frond, and I can't tell if it's bugs or torn tissue. 

IMG20230112093810.jpg

IMG20230112093720.jpg

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4 hours ago, MiamiNorm said:

I hadn't thought of bugs or anything until your post. 

This is what I found underneath 1 frond, and I can't tell if it's bugs or torn tissue. 

IMG20230112093810.jpg

IMG20230112093720.jpg

The white stuff just looks like connective tissue, the yellow dots could be too, or could be something like aphids, hard to see from the pics.  I don’t think pests kill these here, but they do seem to suck some of the vigor out them.  Strong, healthy palms seem to shrug off mealy bugs, scale, whitefly, leaf rollers, etc…. But the struggling ones just can’t seem to fight them off as well, and they seem to contribute to their decline.  

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@Merlyn

Since you suggested getting Banrot, and some other products, I will go with the original suggestion of Banrot, and give it an expensive whirl.

I read the application rate, and it talks about mixing 4 or 5 ounces with 100 gallons of water, and then some other stuff. Does it really need to get that diluted? And how will I apply it to 3 bottle palms and their roots? Might you know? The label talks about "per 100 sq ft", which I don't  have.

Banrot.pdf

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