Over wintering in a conservatory

[The Converted]

Evening all

After an unusually long / warm summer in the UK, the daytime & evening temperatures are now noticeably lower, that said, next week is showing a few 18C / 19C max day time temperatures.  

My palms are in all pots and are still throwing out new fronds, even as we head to November.  I have a decent sized trachycarpus fortunei which I'm not too concerned about, given that there are a number in my immediate area that seem to cope with the worst of our winter weather (however, they are larger and planted in the ground).  I also have a Butia Odorata,  2 CIDPs and a jubaea chilensis, all of which are relatively young.  My concern is not so much the risk of frost or snow (which rarely happens in SE England), but the amount of rainfall we typically receive over the winter period, and the resultant damp soil for long periods of time.  Given how long it took to find a sensibly priced jubaea chilensis in the UK I want to give it the best chances possible! 

We've got a decent sized conservatory, which gets plenty of sun from late morning until the end of the day.  I'm wondering if it is better to move the palms into the conservatory in the next few weeks, until around March next year when the worst of the winter has passed.  It's not being heated this winter, so during the coldest nights it'll still be pretty cold, but it'll protect the palms from frosts and excessive rainfall.  I'm just wondering if there would be any negatives with this approach, ie longer term hardiness etc?  Presumably the palms would only need watering every couple of weeks or so in this situation?

Or is it better just to leave them outside and protect them with fleece when the coldest weather is forecast? 

Thanks everyone. 

 

 

 

 

 

[PalmsandLiszt]

Unless they are really small seedlings they will probably be fine outside assuming there is no extreme weather (and mix is well-draining), but bringing them in to somewhere warmer would mean they would be able to grow a little more throughout the winter, which seems as good a reason as any to do so, all other things being equal. The only potential drawback I can think of is that you might have to gradually acclimatise them to unfiltered sunlight when you put them back out again, but that is not an onerous task.

I don't think leaving palms out in cold weather really toughens them up in any way; you just get to see whether they survive it in a state of dormancy, and they either do or they don't.

[Foxpalms]

The rainfall in the southeast isn't that high so for the palms you have, the rain shouldn't affect it, with or without protection they will be fine. In the conservatory they will still be growing throughout the winter, but outside will get them more acclimatised to the weather you have.  With more frost tender palms that I'm growing, I definitely would say slowly building up how much cold they see makes a huge difference to their hardiness. The coconuts you get from the greenhouses sold as houseplants are nowhere near as hardy as the smaller ones grown outside for example. From experience, palms that have seen colder temperatures when smaller have been hardier when they are larger.

[The Converted]

Thanks both.

The palms are in John Innes no.3, so pretty free draining.  Strangely the Butia and the CIDP's seem to dry out much quicker than the Jubaea.  Both the Butia and the Jubaea are around 5 years old, so fairly well established now.  I might risk it and leave them outside with a temporary move into the conservatory during any particularly cold / snowy periods. 

Fox palms, that's interesting what you say about coconut palms.  I've seen them for sale at relatively low prices before and often considered one, however, I've previously ruled them out as I thought they would struggle with our weather.  I thought a bathroom would work well due to humidity / warmer temperatures but for some reason my wife didn't seem to be in agreement.  Have you had any success with them? 

[PalmsandLiszt]

19 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

With more frost tender palms that I'm growing, I definitely would say slowly building up how much cold they see makes a huge difference to their hardiness. The coconuts you get from the greenhouses sold as houseplants are nowhere near as hardy as the smaller ones grown outside for example. From experience, palms that have seen colder temperatures when smaller have been hardier when they are larger.

I absolutely agree with this, but they do need to be very small. This is mainly why people will buy nice-looking, largish palms grown in warm, humid nursery conditions and find that they rapidly deteriorate when brought into the average home environment. Always better to grow things from seed or very small seedlings if you want them to adjust to an imperfect environment. Then they'll produce optimised leaves and roots for that environment. They need to be very small (or very big) to avoid being killed by the loss of their unoptimised leaves and roots. This isn't some mithridatic response to cold, it's the plant producing physiologically different organs to suit the conditions it's in: fewer stomata, more chloroplasts, etc.
Those coconuts sold as houseplants are lambs to the slaughter.

17 hours ago, The Converted said:

The palms are in John Innes no.3, so pretty free draining.  Strangely the Butia and the CIDP's seem to dry out much quicker than the Jubaea.

I'd add some pumice or perlite to JI#3; it has some sand in it, but still I'd not want a wet, cold palm in it with nothing else. The recipe the Palm Centre in London were using in the 90s was a third J Innes 3, a third leca and a third coarse perlite (the sort the size of popcorn). That seemed to work well for them.
I'd not worry about the Jubaea as they are extremely slow and there's not much you can do about it.

[Foxpalms]

17 hours ago, The Converted said:

Fox palms, that's interesting what you say about coconut palms.  I've seen them for sale at relatively low prices before and often considered one, however, I've previously ruled them out as I thought they would struggle with our weather.  I thought a bathroom would work well due to humidity / warmer temperatures but for some reason my wife didn't seem to be in agreement.  Have you had any success with them? 

The coconut palms which are inexpensive from the shops are usually not very hardy, I do have one but it's about as fussy as my lipstick palm. If you grow one from seed or buy a pre germinated one of esty then grow them in warm humidish conditions but expose them to some cool weather such as leaving them outside in the summer they tend to be hardier. The one I did this with is much hardier. Both go outside in the summer and inside in the winter and grow fine. Saying that though coconuts need high low temperature to grow and being in central London means the lows in summer are warmer than elsewhere. I find when inside because theres less humidity for some reason they need higher temperatures than they do with higher humidity, so I would place it in a very sunny spot that doesn't go below 17c and gets above 23c during the day. If you want a nice looking crownshafted palm, Rhopalostylis sapida is one you could consider growing outside where you are. They do very well with cool temperatures and are fairly hardy. What was you're low temperature last year here it was -0.9c in the coldest spot and you mentioned you were in an urban environment is that in London or a smaller town urban heat island?

[The Converted]

PalmsandLiszt

Thanks for the advice on soil, I was planning on re potting them next spring, as a few roots are starting to poke through the drainage holes, hopefully they can hold on for a few months.

I think I'd rather they were conditioned to winter weather, so I'll leave them outside, however when hard frosts / snow is forecast I'll bring them in as a temporary measure.  

The Jubaea is not quick growing that's for sure.  It's thrown out half a dozen fronds this year, however, there has been no noticeable increase in height.  I think I need to revise my expectations for the short / medium term!

Foxpalms

I thought that might be the case with coconut palms.  I might experiment with growing one, if the result is a hardier palm.  Our main bathroom is very bright and would hopefully provide sufficient warmth / humidity when conditions outside are no longer adequate.  I guess it might become an issue longer term given the available space / height indoors! 

We're just outside London on the outskirts of a smallish town.  We typically get a few sharp frosts each winter.  The lowest we've had have been around -4, according to the car, when I leave for work early in the morning.  We rarely get snow as we're protected by the M4 snow shield, I reckon a day or two at most each winter.  The last time we had a really bad winter was 2010 I think.