Why are palms so infrequent in San Antonio? And in a lot of Texas in general?

[fr8train]

It seems like the perfect place to plant them. The climate humid with mild winters in the part of the state where most people live. While there are palms, they seem pretty rare. The same goes for a lot of Texas. I drove all around the state recently, and apart from the coast, and maybe RGV, there are hardly any palms. Many of the small towns between San Antonio and the coast have none.

Why don't people in Texas plant palms like people do in California, Arizona, or Florida? I know it's not quite as mild in TX, but many beautiful palms can grow there. 

[5am]

My suspicion is on our lack of selection in many big garden centers. There are some gems out there but I think the plant selection is often geared for flashy stuff that looks good now but won’t make it long-term, unless you’re really into boxwoods. (Although I can’t complain about the selection of yucca I’ve seen over the years.) One can find W. robusta and P. roebellini up in Sherman where they don’t  stand a chance but in my time there I never found any Sabals, needles, or trachies.

The valley is the only place in Texas I’ve lived where I see a lot of plants in the big garden centers that can also be found growing along the roadside or in parking lots, but I’ve only lived in 5 counties. Maybe I’ve just been unlucky. 

[awkonradi]

I think this is part of the reason.

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

Well after Palmageddon Texas has had a reset of palmyness. About every ten years North of I10 gets a good enough freeze to kill most palms besides the most cold hardy. Cold hardy palms are usually slower and cost more to get any kind of trunk. We definitely have some palm nuts here but it's so much more risk for us to plant zone pushers. Kings and Queens in Cali have no chance long term in Texas outside of the 9b areas or better. 

T J 

[Xenon]

4 hours ago, fr8train said:

I drove all around the state recently, and apart from the coast, and maybe RGV, there are hardly any palms. Many of the small towns between San Antonio and the coast have none.

I suspect you haven't been to the RGV 😄. In terms of sheer number and density of palms (97% Washingtonia robusta), it's hard to beat. McAllen/Mission has the only Bismarckia lined freeway in Texas. Brownsville has several public plantings of royal palms. 

Rural areas north and northeast of Corpus can get very cold (especially after the 2021 freeze). You won't see large numbers of W. robusta again until you head significantly north into the central and southern portions of the Houston Metro.  Houston is quite palmy (even moreso pre-2021), especially near and south of I-10 though palms remain more of an accent (with localized exceptions, certain neighborhoods, etc) until you reach the Gulf Freeway corridor/Clear Lake Area where they dominate the landscape. Palms are used heavily in many public and commercial areas in Houston such Meyerland Plaza, Highland Village, Hobby Airport, Gulfgate, Memorial City/City Centre, etc. The most prominent mass planting is probably at the I-45/Beltway 8 interchange. 

 

[Collectorpalms]

6 hours ago, fr8train said:

It seems like the perfect place to plant them. The climate humid with mild winters in the part of the state where most people live. While there are palms, they seem pretty rare. The same goes for a lot of Texas. I drove all around the state recently, and apart from the coast, and maybe RGV, there are hardly any palms. Many of the small towns between San Antonio and the coast have none.

Why don't people in Texas plant palms like people do in California, Arizona, or Florida? I know it's not quite as mild in TX, but many beautiful palms can grow there. 

As with everything in This state, it comes down politics and monopolies. Big business runs everything and kills the small businesses like private nurseries, who cannot compete. 

The box stores are what thrives and they do not sell what actually will thrive in our climate. 

In the older days private nurseries did sell more cold hardy and TX appropriate palms, like Washingtonia Filifera and Canary Island Date Palms. Unfortunately the date palms have been killed by diseases, and Filifera are just discarded for new businesses. 
 

What is available for the casual garden shopper today are Washingtonia Hybrids (heavy  robusta), Queens, pygmy date, and Majesties.

Almost of these were were killed last year except the warmest costal areas, Inner Houston,  or RGV. 

[necturus]

The state should be full of tall, beautiful Sabals (palmetto and mexicana) like the ones near the missions in San Antonio. How many severe freezes do we need to learn that they are the long-term trunking palms for Texas? People don't want to put up with their slow growth rate. They would rather grow rockets which have to be removed every 5-10-20 years. Typical short sightedness.

[5am]

9 minutes ago, necturus said:

The state should be full of tall, beautiful Sabals (palmetto and mexicana) like the ones near the missions in San Antonio. How many severe freezes do we need to learn that they are the long-term trunking palms for Texas? People don't want to put up with their slow growth rate. They would rather grow rockets which have to be removed every 5-10-20 years. Typical short sightedness.

100% agree. With populations of Sabal minor, mexicana, and xBrazoriensis all being native to Texas, one might expect more widespread use in the landscape! That said, I do remember a growing up around a handful of other types of palms. Too few, but enough to catch my attention and lead me here. 

[PalmatierMeg]

I suspect a strong customer bias against palmate/fan palms plays a part in TX as well as other states. Face it: the cold hardiest palms are almost exclusively fan palms - Sabals, Braheas, Trachycarpus, Rhapidophyllum, et al. But in my years on this forum I’ve seen people over and over express the desire to grow only pinnate/feather palms. I see this in my seed sales. If I offer Coccothrinax or Schippia seed I get shrugs of disdain. But people go gaga over any pinnate palm seeds. I’ve pretty much given up on Cocothrinax seeds and now compost nearly all of them. This bias against fan palms is particularly true of palm newbies who have visions of coconuts and Christmas palms dance in their heads. People with that strong a bias likely don’t consider a Sabal or Copernicus “true palms” and don’t want them in their yards. And many container garden growers remain obsessed with Adondias and wonder why those uber tropicals can’t survive in their houses.

If more people woke up and smelled the coffee, there would many more varied palms growing in TX and other states. 

 

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

2 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

If more people woke up and smelled the coffee, there would many more varied palms growing in TX and other states. 

I think the best chance to gain non palm peoples eyes away from pinnate palms is a Bizzie. The fact there blue catches everyone's eye and a couple warm winters and you have a specimen from a 5g. Unfortunately Lowes now sell them for twice as much since Palmageddon. Your right about Copernicia but so many people don't want to deal with the sharp hooks. I'm a sucker for pinnate palms myself in the form of Patric hybrids and Alfies 😃 Also ill take sabal seeds off you anytime !!! 

T J  

[fr8train]

21 hours ago, 5am said:

My suspicion is on our lack of selection in many big garden centers. There are some gems out there but I think the plant selection is often geared for flashy stuff that looks good now but won’t make it long-term, unless you’re really into boxwoods. (Although I can’t complain about the selection of yucca I’ve seen over the years.) One can find W. robusta and P. roebellini up in Sherman where they don’t  stand a chance but in my time there I never found any Sabals, needles, or trachies.

The valley is the only place in Texas I’ve lived where I see a lot of plants in the big garden centers that can also be found growing along the roadside or in parking lots, but I’ve only lived in 5 counties. Maybe I’ve just been unlucky. 

That's interesting, I'm surprised they don't sell more sabals. They seemed to all survive the freeze, as opposed to the washingtonias, but even before the freeze I didn't see a ton of washingtonias.

21 hours ago, awkonradi said:

I think this is part of the reason.

The first time I went to Texas was in December of 2020, right before that crazy freeze, and while I was surprised that there were any palms around Dallas, like a really nice trunked sabals I saw in front of an in-n-out, I was also surprised how few palms there in the parts of the state where I'd expect to see more of them, like San Antonio. 

[fr8train]

19 hours ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Well after Palmageddon Texas has had a reset of palmyness. About every ten years North of I10 gets a good enough freeze to kill most palms besides the most cold hardy. Cold hardy palms are usually slower and cost more to get any kind of trunk. We definitely have some palm nuts here but it's so much more risk for us to plant zone pushers. Kings and Queens in Cali have no chance long term in Texas outside of the 9b areas or better. 

T J 

Yeah that makes sense. I'd expect to see more sabals and other really cold hardy palms that can take those temps though, after all it's one of the few areas of the US where they can grow without protection outdoors. 

19 hours ago, Xenon said:

I suspect you haven't been to the RGV 😄. In terms of sheer number and density of palms (97% Washingtonia robusta), it's hard to beat. McAllen/Mission has the only Bismarckia lined freeway in Texas. Brownsville has several public plantings of royal palms. 

Rural areas north and northeast of Corpus can get very cold (especially after the 2021 freeze). You won't see large numbers of W. robusta again until you head significantly north into the central and southern portions of the Houston Metro.  Houston is quite palmy (even moreso pre-2021), especially near and south of I-10 though palms remain more of an accent (with localized exceptions, certain neighborhoods, etc) until you reach the Gulf Freeway corridor/Clear Lake Area where they dominate the landscape. Palms are used heavily in many public and commercial areas in Houston such Meyerland Plaza, Highland Village, Hobby Airport, Gulfgate, Memorial City/City Centre, etc. The most prominent mass planting is probably at the I-45/Beltway 8 interchange. 

Yeah RGV was the only part of the state where I saw a lot of palms, like I'd expect elsewhere, like San Antonio. Maybe in Galveston too. That said there's a ton of stuff that can probably grow down there, no? This is unlike the rest of the state which is more limited by its climate, yet from what I remember I only saw washingtonias and sabals.

[fr8train]

8 hours ago, necturus said:

The state should be full of tall, beautiful Sabals (palmetto and mexicana) like the ones near the missions in San Antonio. How many severe freezes do we need to learn that they are the long-term trunking palms for Texas? People don't want to put up with their slow growth rate. They would rather grow rockets which have to be removed every 5-10-20 years. Typical short sightedness.

100%, that's what I mean! The sabal palms at the missions in San Antonio are beautiful, and seemed unfazed by the deep freeze. They should be everywhere down there. 

[fr8train]

3 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

I suspect a strong customer bias against palmate/fan palms plays a part in TX as well as other states. Face it: the cold hardiest palms are almost exclusively fan palms - Sabals, Braheas, Trachycarpus, Rhapidophyllum, et al. But in my years on this forum I’ve seen people over and over express the desire to grow only pinnate/feather palms. I see this in my seed sales. If I offer Coccothrinax or Schippia seed I get shrugs of disdain. But people go gaga over any pinnate palm seeds. I’ve pretty much given up on Cocothrinax seeds and now compost nearly all of them. This bias against fan palms is particularly true of palm newbies who have visions of coconuts and Christmas palms dance in their heads. People with that strong a bias likely don’t consider a Sabal or Copernicus “true palms” and don’t want them in their yards. And many container garden growers remain obsessed with Adondias and wonder why those uber tropicals can’t survive in their houses.

If more people woke up and smelled the coffee, there would many more varied palms growing in TX and other states. 

That's interesting. Pinnate lovers should plant butias then, they'll also survive everywhere that sabals do. They look spectacular with trunks imo, but I rarely see any that are that mature. 

[fr8train]

Something like this can grow there, fully hardy:

Yet 95% of the city looks like this, no palms in sight:

[ruskinPalms]

5 hours ago, fr8train said:

That's interesting. Pinnate lovers should plant butias then, they'll also survive everywhere that sabals do. They look spectacular with trunks imo, but I rarely see any that are that mature. 

I’m not sure if Butia is truly as tough as Sabal but I’m sure the cold hardy folks in here can clarify. I do think that Texas was a lot palmier prior to that nasty freeze event. That being said, Texas is very vulnerable to arctic blasts geographically speaking. So is Florida, but the peninsula is surrounded by the gulf and Atlantic so the blasts are shorter lived, moderated quicker in peninsular Florida hence a much palmier place. I do think the Texas folks should replant and enjoy palms (even the 10A ones we all know are only good 10 to 15 years at at a time) even if they won’t stand the test of time. Things like foxtails, Veitchia, Archontophoenix, Roystonea and other fast growing palms are worth growing and enjoying between the big freezes in Texas and Florida in my opinion. 

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

Since no one else has mentioned this I will. I have only been to Texas twice in my life. I live on the North Carolina coast where it gets very hot and humid, in summer. We are very palmy but mostly Butia,  Sabals,  Needle, Mediterranean fans, Canary dates and Washies, with the occasional odd ball like Chinese fan, mules,  or other. A few years ago I visited San Antonio in early April. We left N.C. with temps mid 70's day and high 60's night. When we got to San Antonio and the doors to the airport opened the 3 of us gave out a gasp. A little piece of our souls flew away. The heat was deadly. I really liked Texas but was informed that "it was not hot yet". Now, remember I live in a very hot, in summer, location.  I frequently have to stop outdoor activity ,  like mowing, in summer, to go inside and recover. My second trip to northern Texas was similar. I did not see a very palmy environment and came to the conclusion that heat was part of the problem. Am I wrong?

[Collectorpalms]

1 hour ago, Jeff zone 8 N.C. said:

Since no one else has mentioned this I will. I have only been to Texas twice in my life. I live on the North Carolina coast where it gets very hot and humid, in summer. We are very palmy but mostly Butia,  Sabals,  Needle, Mediterranean fans, Canary dates and Washies, with the occasional odd ball like Chinese fan, mules,  or other. A few years ago I visited San Antonio in early April. We left N.C. with temps mid 70's day and high 60's night. When we got to San Antonio and the doors to the airport opened the 3 of us gave out a gasp. A little piece of our souls flew away. The heat was deadly. I really liked Texas but was informed that "it was not hot yet". Now, remember I live in a very hot, in summer, location.  I frequently have to stop outdoor activity ,  like mowing, in summer, to go inside and recover. My second trip to northern Texas was similar. I did not see a very palmy environment and came to the conclusion that heat was part of the problem. Am I wrong?

Almost no one mows their lawn etc…. Too damn hot to enjoy like where I grew up in Indiana. Though I hated mowing an acre with a push mower there.
 

I experienced the same gasp ( along with people near me) getting off the plane when visiting here. Now late October/ November through the first week of March is fine outside an Arctic blast .So that’s 1/4 of the year you can’t complain. 
 

I think it was 110 in early September when I moved here for College. and it’s just hotter longer ever since. 

[Collectorpalms]

15 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

I suspect a strong customer bias against palmate/fan palms plays a part in TX as well as other states. Face it: the cold hardiest palms are almost exclusively fan palms - Sabals, Braheas, Trachycarpus, Rhapidophyllum, et al. But in my years on this forum I’ve seen people over and over express the desire to grow only pinnate/feather palms. I see this in my seed sales. If I offer Coccothrinax or Schippia seed I get shrugs of disdain. But people go gaga over any pinnate palm seeds. I’ve pretty much given up on Cocothrinax seeds and now compost nearly all of them. This bias against fan palms is particularly true of palm newbies who have visions of coconuts and Christmas palms dance in their heads. People with that strong a bias likely don’t consider a Sabal or Copernicus “true palms” and don’t want them in their yards. And many container garden growers remain obsessed with Adondias and wonder why those uber tropicals can’t survive in their houses.

If more people woke up and smelled the coffee, there would many more varied palms growing in TX and other states. 

 

People are going to pick a fresh Florida grown pygmy date palm over a tattered windmill palm 90 percent of the time. However now you can’t even find cold hardy palms to even buy. It’s so so frustrating!

[Collectorpalms]

6 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

I’m not sure if Butia is truly as tough as Sabal but I’m sure the cold hardy folks in here can clarify. I do think that Texas was a lot palmier prior to that nasty freeze event. That being said, Texas is very vulnerable to arctic blasts geographically speaking. So is Florida, but the peninsula is surrounded by the gulf and Atlantic so the blasts are shorter lived, moderated quicker in peninsular Florida hence a much palmier place. I do think the Texas folks should replant and enjoy palms (even the 10A ones we all know are only good 10 to 15 years at at a time) even if they won’t stand the test of time. Things like foxtails, Veitchia, Archontophoenix, Roystonea and other fast growing palms are worth growing and enjoying between the big freezes in Texas and Florida in my opinion. 

Butia are NOT nearly as hardy as Sabal Palmettos.  Also not nearly as hardy as Canary Island Dates. But both under a certain sizes maybe 3-4Ft of trunk were killed. 
A 5 gallon Sabal is just not exciting to folks.  So you just never found them for Sabal. 

[Collectorpalms]

12 hours ago, fr8train said:

Something like this can grow there, fully hardy:

Yet 95% of the city looks like this, no palms in sight:

Who is going to spend a couple thousand dollars per palm to make that roadway beautiful. 
As a matter of fact if one happens to pop up on its own it’s a weed, and taken out. 

[5am]

2 hours ago, Jeff zone 8 N.C. said:

Since no one else has mentioned this I will. I have only been to Texas twice in my life. I live on the North Carolina coast where it gets very hot and humid, in summer. We are very palmy but mostly Butia,  Sabals,  Needle, Mediterranean fans, Canary dates and Washies, with the occasional odd ball like Chinese fan, mules,  or other. A few years ago I visited San Antonio in early April. We left N.C. with temps mid 70's day and high 60's night. When we got to San Antonio and the doors to the airport opened the 3 of us gave out a gasp. A little piece of our souls flew away. The heat was deadly. I really liked Texas but was informed that "it was not hot yet". Now, remember I live in a very hot, in summer, location.  I frequently have to stop outdoor activity ,  like mowing, in summer, to go inside and recover. My second trip to northern Texas was similar. I did not see a very palmy environment and came to the conclusion that heat was part of the problem. Am I wrong?

It’s true that much of Texas is oppressively hot and a lot of so-called “full sun” plants will promptly die in the afternoon sun, even given ample water. Now, I’ve seen all those palms you list looking pretty happy in yards around the state, but outside of the garden maybe that heat combined with drought is what does it. I’m putting that to the test in my own unirrigated patch of land in the RGV, but proximity to the coast seems to keep us from topping triple digits anywhere near as often as, say,  Dallas. 

Your experience reminds of a coworker who enjoys heat but Dallas’ summers are little over the top so he left for central NC. According to him the weather is similar but without the overwhelming bits. Sounds like a pretty nice place to be!

[James B]

The heat in Texas isn’t it. Where I live in Rancho Cucamonga Ca we generally have over 20-25 days over 100 and 10-15 days over 105-110 each summer and we have quite a bit of palms in our landscapes.

The polar vortex that wipes out 90% of the palms in Texas every 10 years is the reason why.

We had a guy here on PT who was doing a lot of zone pushing growing tropical stuff in Southern Texas who was adamant if happened to him and he lost his sensitive palms he would replant them all over again but he hasn’t posted since the Palmagedden. Which is unfortunate to see but it can be really tough watching your palms get killed by cold events.

[Xenon]

 

2 hours ago, James B said:

The polar vortex that wipes out 90% of the palms in Texas every 10 years is the reason why.

What is this ten year vortex people keep mentioning? 90% of the palms? 😆 Sure, if you want to grow zone 10 palms in zone 9a but what else could you expect from pushing a full zone...

RE: far southern Texas, I think you are referring to Oliver? He was pushing Carpoxylon, Clinostigma, Areca vestiara, etc.  There are still thousands of royals (and millions of Washingtonia) in far southern Texas, there was no wipeout of the palms there or anywhere else palms are common (zone 9 and above). 

The 2021 polar vortex wasn't a 10 year freeze either, it was 5 degrees colder or more than the next harshest freeze in the last 30 years for much of Texas. If accounting for the warming trend over the last 50-100 years, the 2021 freeze is about as anomalous as the 1989 freeze (a ~100-300 year event). 

[fr8train]

7 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Butia are NOT nearly as hardy as Sabal Palmettos.  Also not nearly as hardy as Canary Island Dates. But both under a certain sizes maybe 3-4Ft of trunk were killed. 
A 5 gallon Sabal is just not exciting to folks.  So you just never found them for Sabal. 

Interesting, I always thought butia were the hardiest pinnate palms. 

7 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Who is going to spend a couple thousand dollars per palm to make that roadway beautiful. 
As a matter of fact if one happens to pop up on its own it’s a weed, and taken out. 

Other cities and towns in similar climate zones do, in addition to this people don't seem to plant them on their own. You don't have to start with giant expensive plants either, if cost is an issue. It sounds like, based on what people have posted so far, that Texas lacks nurseries that sell appropriate palms for the state's climate. 

4 hours ago, James B said:

The heat in Texas isn’t it. Where I live in Rancho Cucamonga Ca we generally have over 20-25 days over 100 and 10-15 days over 105-110 each summer and we have quite a bit of palms in our landscapes.

The polar vortex that wipes out 90% of the palms in Texas every 10 years is the reason why.

We had a guy here on PT who was doing a lot of zone pushing growing tropical stuff in Southern Texas who was adamant if happened to him and he lost his sensitive palms he would replant them all over again but he hasn’t posted since the Palmagedden. Which is unfortunate to see but it can be really tough watching your palms get killed by cold events.

I wonder about the heat issue. Phoenix and Yuma get much hotter and for just as long, they're just not as humid. 

[fr8train]

It's hard to believe this is zone 9a, it looks like a scene out of Indiana. 

And so much of the city looks like this, yet so many beautiful plants can grow down there. 

[Graydon]

On 9/21/2022 at 12:47 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

I suspect a strong customer bias against palmate/fan palms plays a part in TX as well as other states. Face it: the cold hardiest palms are almost exclusively fan palms - Sabals, Braheas, Trachycarpus, Rhapidophyllum, et al. But in my years on this forum I’ve seen people over and over express the desire to grow only pinnate/feather palms. I see this in my seed sales. If I offer Coccothrinax or Schippia seed I get shrugs of disdain. But people go gaga over any pinnate palm seeds. I’ve pretty much given up on Cocothrinax seeds and now compost nearly all of them. This bias against fan palms is particularly true of palm newbies who have visions of coconuts and Christmas palms dance in their heads. People with that strong a bias likely don’t consider a Sabal or Copernicus “true palms” and don’t want them in their yards. And many container garden growers remain obsessed with Adondias and wonder why those uber tropicals can’t survive in their houses.

If more people woke up and smelled the coffee, there would many more varied palms growing in TX and other states. 

 

I am landscaping my Texas yard.  What would you recommend that might grow in far south McAllen that adds some variety?  You have piqued my curiosity.  : )  Thank you!

 

[SeanK]

On 9/22/2022 at 5:24 AM, Collectorpalms said:

People are going to pick a fresh Florida grown pygmy date palm over a tattered windmill palm 90 percent of the time. However now you can’t even find cold hardy palms to even buy. It’s so so frustrating!

In Atlanta, we had our last bad winter in 2014. Not the 100-year freeze of 1985, but average temps and precipitation that people didn't plan for. We can get ice NE of the city alone I85 ATL-CLT. 2014, we saw 10°, 12°, and a big snowstorm across I20. Since then, no more Rhapidophyllum or S.minor. T.fortunei only at small private nurseries. Almost no Butia or Chamaerhops.

Acosta Nurseries used to ship cold-hardy palms in blue pots. That market died out for them. Big-Box stores don't t sell palms here.

[PalmatierMeg]

1 hour ago, Graydon said:

I am landscaping my Texas yard.  What would you recommend that might grow in far south McAllen that adds some variety?  You have piqued my curiosity.  : )  Thank you!

 

I'm not familiar enough with that part of TX to recommend palms to plant. I suggest you post a separate topic requesting recommendations from STX forum members. I also suggest you include photos of your yard when you explain what you are looking. We love photos so you will elicit more interest than with words alone.

[Xenon]

2 hours ago, Graydon said:

I am landscaping my Texas yard.  What would you recommend that might grow in far south McAllen that adds some variety?  You have piqued my curiosity.  : )  Thank you!

 

That's a great area for palms, survival rate of royal and foxtail palms (both commonly available) is decent following the coldest winter in over 30 years by a longshot. Check out the threads below and more. You can attempt most things people are growing in Central Florida as well, especially Tampa/Orlando. 

 

 

 

On 1/8/2011 at 1:24 PM, oliver said:

Kumar asked for Latania - well ask and you shall receive. Had a little time on my hands today and took some pics of some of my favorites which are not commonly seen in Texas (they don't show up in google maps)Here is a red and yellow latan.

 

[Fusca]

7 hours ago, Graydon said:

I am landscaping my Texas yard.  What would you recommend that might grow in far south McAllen that adds some variety?  You have piqued my curiosity.  : )  Thank you!

As @Xenon has pointed out with the palms in those threads there's quite a variety of palms that can be grown in zone 9b/10a.  Do you happen to know your soil type and pH?  High pH can be a limiting factor for some species.

[Graydon]

I don't know my pH but I can test it.  As has been mentioned, we occasionally get hard freezes for a few hours.  My neighborhood had enormous ficus trees until Feb. of 2021. 

[Mikelzz]

I have lived in Corpus Christi Texas and was very enthusiastic about palms .  Over the years that I lived there , 1969-1990 ,,, there were cycles of warm winters and then horrid, cold winters .

most palms died in the Artic Freezes ..    and if you got three years in a row without killer freezes you were lucky... it was very discouraging ..... even the Rio Grande Valley was not truely safe .

San Antonio is further north and inland and even colder .

Galveston Island has had deep freeezes periodically so that only the sabals and a few Phoenix survive , for the long haul,  although people replace them with palms that are basically used as annuals ..  

All the suggested Bismarkias and the few Royals also died, along with most others with few exceptions.    Not cheap to replace.

Add in the heat , drying winds and drought, and you have to have tough trees to begin with 

 

Palms seem to be the favorites of those in Texas that can afford to replace them periodically .

 

[Xenon]

1 hour ago, Mikelzz said:

I have lived in Corpus Christi Texas and was very enthusiastic about palms .  Over the years that I lived there , 1969-1990 ,,, there were cycles of warm winters and then horrid, cold winters .

most palms died in the Artic Freezes ..    and if you got three years in a row without killer freezes you were lucky... it was very discouraging ..... even the Rio Grande Valley was not truely safe .

San Antonio is further north and inland and even colder .

Galveston Island has had deep freeezes periodically so that only the sabals and a few Phoenix survive , for the long haul,  although people replace them with palms that are basically used as annuals ..  

All the suggested Bismarkias and the few Royals also died, along with most others with few exceptions.    Not cheap to replace.

Add in the heat , drying winds and drought, and you have to have tough trees to begin with 

 

Palms seem to be the favorites of those in Texas that can afford to replace them periodically .

 

The same could be said of the current landscape you see in much of central Florida, especially the coastal parts...much of it was planted post 80s freezes and lots of mature specimens were brought in from down south. 

Royals have persisted in the warmer parts of the Rio Grande Valley since the 90s. 20 year old royal palms in Galveston are not "annuals" and the Bismarckia are fully recovered. Not to understate the mega freezes (which aren't unique to Texas) but the doom and gloom about "catastrophic freezes every 5-10 years" painted in this thread just isn't true and is quite off-putting. 

[Graydon]

All the Bismarck palms in Mcallen survived.   I moved here from Austin to have some better growing conditions.  Sometimes we do! 

[sonoranfans]

Texas appears prone to bigger extremes than central florida.  This is probably due to the peninsular nature of florida and the waters heat retention.  People generally plant what will grow well long term.  All royals dont have the same cold tolerance, a big one with a fat trunk should do much better(4-5 degrees F) than a small one p4rior to trunking.  Evena trunking palm will take years for the root system to establish and then it will be at peak cold tolerance.  A big fat bud high above the ground serves us well here in radiational events, while the big bud is good for advective events, the height doesn't help much.  Just west of me there are royals that were 40' tall 13 years ago, so its been a very long time since we have had a mature royal killing cold.  Those big advective cold events have not been as cold here as in texas.   By the way 1989 cold event was colder on the east coast, tampa was actually 2 degrees colder in 2010(23F) than in 1989(25 F) if I recall correctly.  I found it interesting that tampa was much colder than the east coast in 2010.

[Xenon]

35 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

Texas appears prone to bigger extremes than central florida.  This is probably due to the peninsular nature of florida and the waters heat retention.  People generally plant what will grow well long term.  All royals dont have the same cold tolerance, a big one with a fat trunk should do much better(4-5 degrees F) than a small one p4rior to trunking.  Evena trunking palm will take years for the root system to establish and then it will be at peak cold tolerance.  A big fat bud high above the ground serves us well here in radiational events, while the big bud is good for advective events, the height doesn't help much.  Just west of me there are royals that were 40' tall 13 years ago, so its been a very long time since we have had a mature royal killing cold.  Those big advective cold events have not been as cold here as in texas.   By the way 1989 cold event was colder on the east coast, tampa was actually 2 degrees colder in 2010(23F) than in 1989(25 F) if I recall correctly.  I found it interesting that tampa was much colder than the east coast in 2010.

Agree peninsular Florida is generally more shielded from extreme cold events but the "Texas palms die every 5-10 years" rhetoric in this thread is also far off base. Tampa was colder in the 1983 freeze. The southernmost portion of Texas (where average temperatures are similar to Central Florida) hasn't seen a royal wipeout cold event since the 80s. Aside from the 22-24F feeeze in 2021, the next worst freeze in Brownsville was 28F in 2011 and for McAllen, 24F in 1996. Both average an average annual extreme minimum of 32-34F for the last 30 years and the average at the coast is slightly higher. 

There are thousands of royals in southernmost Texas and plenty of big ones. Royals are planted in the central square in Brownsville, at the central bus station, and at the local university. Common in residential areas too and in high demand. 

On 8/4/2022 at 1:02 AM, Xenon said:

Royals grow faaaast...I'm guessing these two were planted in the early-mid 90s? Brownsville saw ~23-24F and the McAllen Area further inland briefly dipped to ~22F. 

 

 

[Ivanos1982]

they get killed by cold snaps, people are removing them all over Houston because even though they look decent, since the Feb 2021 frost they are dying slowly. These cold fronts coming down from Canada are coming way too far south in the past ten years.

[Ivanos1982]

It also didn't help that we had one of the worst droughts ever in the region this past year. Palms like Trachys and even some filiferas didn't make it in Houston because it rained so little this year. I lost a bottle brush tree I planted right after the Feb 2021 freeze. It was growing very quickly but this year it died from drought. I lost half my lawn as well even though I watered it as much as possible. It was bad this year.

[Xenon]

I've been driving all around Houston these past few days and noticed many new palm plantings...and the robusta that lived are sparkly full lime green again....guess we all see what we want to see 😁