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Major change to Dypsis - now divided into three genera


Bill Baker (Kew)

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When you have time, please comment on the changes to epithet endings. I see in the Chrysalidocarpus group a number of changes, but none (that I'm aware) in the Dypsis group. Curious how this works.  Examples: prestoniana --> prestonianus, canaliculata --> canaliculatus, yet hovomantsina  remains unchanged. In Dypsis  pachyramea and procera remain as they were. I scanned the article but didn't hit upon any explanation. It's a minor detail within a much larger subject, but I'm curious.

Kim Cyr

Between the beach and the bays, Point Loma, San Diego, California USA
and on a 300 year-old lava flow, Pahoa, Hawaii, 1/4 mile from the 2018 flow
All characters  in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

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Kim,

Chrysalidocarpus is a masculine name and thus prestoniana changes to prestonianus Hovomantsina, on the other hand, is a vernacular name in apposition to the generic name, and is regarded as being genderless and is not declined (these are the city-gritty rules of nomenclature)

Dypsis on the other hand is feminine so there will be no changes to all the names in Dypsis that are still used.

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John Dransfield

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The paper represents real progress in understanding the palms of Madagascar.  As the results started coming in, it was really exciting to see that Vonitra, Masoala, Lemurophoenix and Marojejya could all be maintained as distinct genera – that makes a great deal of sense and was an immense relief to me. The division of what’s left of Dypsis (once Vonitra is removed) into Chrysalidocarpus and Dypsis makes so much sense, even though there are a couple of species – such as D. marojejyi  and D. coursii – that I thought would come out in Chrysalidocarpus but the molecules tell a different story and we have to think of these as giant species of Dypsis. If I have a disappointment it is that we have been unable to resolve further groupings within Dypsis that align with very distinctive morphological groupings based on stamen number and position. Perhaps that will come in the future. The main problem now facing us is how to separate species, particularly in Chrysalidocarpus. Here many of the giants are represented by very scrappy herbarium material, collected at different stages of inflorescence maturity, making comparison really difficult. There is also the problem of hybridization, particularly within Chrysalidocarpus. We know hybrids have been successfully raised by growers but almost never are these hybrids documented, even with photos (hint - anyone out there with photos of hybrids?). One taxon in Chrysalidocarpus, for example,  is exercising me considerably at the moment – widely grown as a genuine wild species, it does not match the type of that species and could well represent a hybrid. How many more of the very distinctive Chrysalidocarpus in cultivation are hybrids?

The gestation of this study has been long (it started in 2006, if I can remember that long ago) and it is wonderful finally to see the results. A second edition of Palms of Madagascar has been on the back-burner, waiting for the new taxonomy. There is now no excuse not to produce a new version.

John

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John Dransfield

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Oh, and I forgot to say that we plan an explicatory, well illustrated article in a future edition of PALMS, summarising what has gone on in Madagascar palms in the past as background and going through teh new taxonomy.

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John Dransfield

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35 minutes ago, John Dransfield said:

There is also the problem of hybridization, particularly within Chrysalidocarpus. We know hybrids have been successfully raised by growers but almost never are these hybrids documented, even with photos (hint - anyone out there with photos of hybrids?)...

Seabreeze nursery does a good job of documenting their hybrids...
- Here's their page on the famous "Tribear" hybrid (Dypsis leptocheilos x Dypsis decaryi): https://seabreezenurseries.com/hybrid-palm-trees/dypsis-leptocheilos-x-dypsis-decaryi-tribear-palm-red-triangle-palm/
- And here is a listing of the hybrids they sell: https://seabreezenurseries.com/hybrid-palm-trees/ 

The "Palms for California" website has good data on two of the hybrids...
http://www.palmpedia.net/palmsforcal/Category:Dypsis

And a lot of data exchange happening on the "Hybrids Palm trees" Facebook group... - https://www.facebook.com/groups/909926945737519
If you join the group, you can then jump to posts by Dypsis hybridization expert Justen Dobbs by clicking this link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/909926945737519/user/1014227377/ (he's been sharing his Dypsis hybridization discoveries, successes & failures here).

Thank you so much to you and your team for sharing your vast knowledge with the group. I have to admit I wish the palm type I own 24 types of had kept the simpler "Dypsis" name (due to ease of pronunciation & shorter labels) - with the other type getting the longer name. But I'll just keep practicing till it rolls off the tongue. :interesting:

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Stacey Wright  |  Graphic Designer

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Hi, Stacey!

That is most helpful - a whole new source of info on Dypsis hybrids (rather Chrysalidocarpus hybrids). I shall attempt to follow through with these data.

John

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John Dransfield

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Thanks for the great work in making some sense out of Dypsis!  I scanned through the document and it's interesting to see some fairly close relationships that seem visually logical (C. Lanceolatus, Cabadae, Pembanus) but then I see a really weird closely related combo (Arenarum, Lutescens, Carlsmithii).  Just visually speaking the "Stumpy Palm" seems like it should belong genetically in with some of the other stout beasties.  At the least I'd think that profusely clustering vs solitary would have some substantial genetic differences.  I suppose that's part of the difficulty of classifying by appearance, which previously had Carlsmithii close to Nauseosa.

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On 8/26/2022 at 2:40 AM, iDesign said:

 

Out of curiosity, is this chart useful for selecting possible palms to hybridize? I've heard that plants which are closer on the DNA family tree are more likely to hybridize than those which are further apart... but perhaps any two Dypsis within the "Chrysalidocarpus" group might be a possible target for hybridization? The two ingredients for "Tribear" (dacaryi & leptocheilos) in particular appear to be pretty far apart on the chart. 🤔

tribear.thumb.png.84968d004d8f8efb63bfce864703f710.png

Obviously, the only way to know for sure is to try... I was just curious if the chart might be useful for predicting possible hybridization pairs.

I think the chart will help a great deal in concocting hybrids. If being close together on the tree helps than what about a C decipiens x baronii. Imagine crossing decipiens with baronii black stem. Wow. 

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Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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I'm always in favor of scientific progress!  Poor Neodypsis did not get resurrected. 😢  Why were they all combined in the first place?  Now I have 19 Chrysalidocarpus, 1 Vonitra and 0 Dypsis.

I noticed that many of the species names changed from feminine to masculine forms when they were brought over to Chrysalidocarpus. 

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I am very grateful to Dr. Baker for clearing up the confusion of the species names I mentioned. Now, maybe someone can explain the difference between the tall graceful palms grown from seed sold as ovobontsira and the massive palms illustrated with photos by Phil Arrowsmith, Jeff Marcus, and Joro in Palmpedia.

On a more frivolous note, perhaps I can help with the problem of easily pronouncing Crysalidocarpus. Note that, in the case of Johannesteijmannia, the problem of saying the name is circumvented by using a short name (Joey) recognized by everyone. How about "Crysal"? Any other suggestions?

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Mike Merritt

Big Island of Hawaii, windward, rainy side, 740 feet (225 meters) elevation

165 inches (4,200 mm) of rain per year, 66 to 83 deg F (20 to 28 deg C) in summer, 62 to 80 deg F (16.7 to 26.7 Deg C) in winter.

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7 minutes ago, mike in kurtistown said:

How about "Crysal"? Any other suggestions?

Let's just use the middle part, "Salid." 🤭

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19 hours ago, John Dransfield said:

One taxon in Chrysalidocarpus, for example,  is exercising me considerably at the moment – widely grown as a genuine wild species, it does not match the type of that species and could well represent a hybrid.

John

Out of interest, which species?

Thanks so much for the work put into all of this. I’ve been sort of expecting this for some time. The split into Vonitra, Chrysalidocarpus and Dypsis makes a lot of sense too me, I think I’ll adapt pretty quickly to the change, especially since all but 2 of my 30 or so previously Dypsis sp are now Chrysalidocarpus. 

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Tim Brisbane

Patterson Lakes, bayside Melbourne, Australia

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2005 Minimum: 2.6C,  Maximum: 44C

2005 Average: 17.2C, warmest on record.

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On 8/26/2022 at 6:38 AM, SubTropicRay said:

Bravo Dr. Baker!!  Viva Chrysalidocarpus!! 😁  Dypsis just became a much more rare and harder to cultivate genus.

I'm down from 10 Dypsis species to one measly 1 gallon Dypsis scottiana and 9 Chrysalidocarpus species.

Well - I thought i had two Dypsis species after 10-years of growing them to now find out i have none! - LOL

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On 8/26/2022 at 8:43 AM, John Dransfield said:

 There is also the problem of hybridization, particularly within Chrysalidocarpus. We know hybrids have been successfully raised by growers but almost never are these hybrids documented, even with photos (hint - anyone out there with photos of hybrids?). One taxon in Chrysalidocarpus, for example,  is exercising me considerably at the moment – widely grown as a genuine wild species, it does not match the type of that species and could well represent a hybrid. How many more of the very distinctive Chrysalidocarpus in cultivation are hybrids?

The gestation of this study has been long (it started in 2006, if I can remember that long ago) and it is wonderful finally to see the results. A second edition of Palms of Madagascar has been on the back-burner, waiting for the new taxonomy. There is now no excuse not to produce a new version.

John

First off, Thanks to the Kew and to Bill and Hank and yourself for some near insurmountable work on the Palms of Madagascar!  Much more for collectors to write or pronounce but pales in your work done!

 

Regarding the Hybrids and sources.. my mind can't help but go back to the 2012 Biennial and touring Nong Nooch. At one point the trams dropped us at a large growing field of what (to anyone that grew many , now Chrysalidocarpus) were all hybrids. I spied you walking through a row by yourself and said "This is kind of a nightmare for you, isn't John?" You looked a bit like your wheels had already been turning and responded that (paraphrasing) "It really give one pause that species we have named really may be a hybrid to start with!"  I would assume you remember that area as it was several acres I believe. I would assume that would be a great area when that subject is broached upon.

 

Cheers,

Bill Sanford

(Happy to say I still have a few Dypsis, need to finally get some Vonitra and Chrysalidocarpus overrunning the place in all their glory!)

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Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

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If a hybrid produces viable seed, aren't there two or more distinct morphologies present in the seedlings, at least when they get large enough? If so, a dead giveaway.

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Mike Merritt

Big Island of Hawaii, windward, rainy side, 740 feet (225 meters) elevation

165 inches (4,200 mm) of rain per year, 66 to 83 deg F (20 to 28 deg C) in summer, 62 to 80 deg F (16.7 to 26.7 Deg C) in winter.

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On 8/27/2022 at 2:59 AM, Vance_palmnerd said:

I'm always in favor of scientific progress!  Poor Neodypsis did not get resurrected. 😢  Why were they all combined in the first place?  Now I have 19 Chrysalidocarpus, 1 Vonitra and 0 Dypsis.

I noticed that many of the species names changed from feminine to masculine forms when they were brought over to Chrysalidocarpus. 

Poor old Neodypsis! There's some discussion of the name change endings earlier in the thread - take a look.

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On 8/27/2022 at 4:02 AM, mike in kurtistown said:

On a more frivolous note, perhaps I can help with the problem of easily pronouncing Crysalidocarpus. Note that, in the case of Johannesteijmannia, the problem of saying the name is circumvented by using a short name (Joey) recognized by everyone. How about "Crysal"? Any other suggestions?

I think I'll steer clear of this one...! I know my limits!

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17 hours ago, BS Man about Palms said:

Regarding the Hybrids and sources.. my mind can't help but go back to the 2012 Biennial and touring Nong Nooch. At one point the trams dropped us at a large growing field of what (to anyone that grew many , now Chrysalidocarpus) were all hybrids. I spied you walking through a row by yourself and said "This is kind of a nightmare for you, isn't John?" You looked a bit like your wheels had already been turning and responded that (paraphrasing) "It really give one pause that species we have named really may be a hybrid to start with!"  I would assume you remember that area as it was several acres I believe. I would assume that would be a great area when that subject is broached upon.

Cheers,

Bill Sanford

Hybrids in cultivation certainly open our eyes to what is possible if two species come into contact with each other. The story in the wild is harder to unpick, though there are many genetic tools available. Hybridisation may well have played a role in generating the species that we recognise in Madagascar, but that remains a wide-open research field.

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Vance_Palmnerd asked about Neodypsis. If you have access to it (and it can be accessed as a digital copy online at the Kew website) - Henk Beentje and I discussed the sinking of all the historic genera into Dypsis in great detail. This decision was not taken lightly but when faced with Neodypsis baronii and Chrysalidocarpus lutescens, for example,  as two such similar palms with similar flowers and inflorescences and differing only in the endosperm of baronii being ruminate and lutescens homogeneous, and with the degree of rumination in baronii being variable in extent, we felt we were on strong grounds for these two - and, I am glad to say, the molecules have confirmed this. 

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John Dransfield

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For Bill Sanford - I well remember that field of dypsis hybrids at Nong Nooch and my remembered vision of them continues to haunt me (I have lost the images I took of them).  After Palms of Madagascar was published there was a spate of introductions of palm seed from Madagascar bearing all sorts of weird and wonderful names. As these palms matured it has been quite a challenge, as we all know, to confirm their identity  as they came into flower. For example ovobontsira, mentioned by Mike Merritt is one such, where the bulk of the palms cultivated under that name bear little resemblance to the real thing that we described for the first time in Palms of Madagascar - and it was for that reason that we published the photo feature of the real ovobontsira in PALMS, taken by Joro at the type locality. One comforting thing was that the bulk if these new introductions were from wild source seed from Madagascar and so we could be pretty sure that what we were seeing were either palms described in Palms of Madagascar or, if unidentifiable, then new species (e.g. Chrysalidocarpus carlsmithii and C. robusta.) The problem now is that many Madagascar palms are now flowering and fruiting in cultivation and some of the seed produced now could be of hybrid origin. I am very nervous about trying to name second generation Madagascar palms, particularly Chrysalidocarpus species.

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John Dransfield

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 I'm curious about the meaning / derivation of the name Chrysalidocarpus. "Carpus" is Latin for "wrist." Is Chrysalido" related to " chrysalis"? "Chrysalis wrist"? 

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8 hours ago, Kaname-kun said:

 I'm curious about the meaning / derivation of the name Chrysalidocarpus. "Carpus" is Latin for "wrist." Is Chrysalido" related to " chrysalis"? "Chrysalis wrist"? 

It’s from Greek origin from my understanding. Chrysos = gold, carpos = fruit. 

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Tim Brisbane

Patterson Lakes, bayside Melbourne, Australia

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@Bill Baker (Kew) While we are looking at DNA of closely related palm species, could I be so bold as to request another palm DNA study. I'm thinking that Rhopalostylis would be a great one to look at. Generally speaking, but not always, R sapida has mauve flowers whereas R baueri has white flowers. It's relatively easy to tell these two apart. But the Chatham Island group of R sapida has white flowers and a growth rate similar to R baueri. My thinking is that its possible that the Chatham Island R sapida may in fact be a form of R baueri. Not that it matters to us growers. We will grow as many things as we can, but the mainland R sapida look so much different to Pitt Island (ie Chatham Island) R sapida and grow much faster than the mainland varieties. DNA doesn't lie. I apologise for diverging from Dypsis etc, but this genus has me intrigued. 

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Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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For anyone that desires a quick conversion guide, the attached spreadsheet should help you.  If you see anything amiss, let me know please.

202208302325_Dypsis_reclassification.xlsx

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone (2012): 9b | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (1985, 1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a | 30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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2 hours ago, Tyrone said:

@Bill Baker (Kew) While we are looking at DNA of closely related palm species, could I be so bold as to request another palm DNA study. I'm thinking that Rhopalostylis would be a great one to look at. Generally speaking, but not always, R sapida has mauve flowers whereas R baueri has white flowers. It's relatively easy to tell these two apart. But the Chatham Island group of R sapida has white flowers and a growth rate similar to R baueri. My thinking is that its possible that the Chatham Island R sapida may in fact be a form of R baueri. Not that it matters to us growers. We will grow as many things as we can, but the mainland R sapida look so much different to Pitt Island (ie Chatham Island) R sapida and grow much faster than the mainland varieties. DNA doesn't lie. I apologise for diverging from Dypsis etc, but this genus has me intrigued. 

You are not alone in thinking that.  The Mokohinau Island form (nowhere near the Chathams) also has white flowers...

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5 hours ago, richnorm said:

You are not alone in thinking that.  The Mokohinau Island form (nowhere near the Chathams) also has white flowers...

Even as seedlings, I struggle to tell R sapida Oceana from R baueri, whereas every other form of R saliva I’ve grown looks very different. 

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Tim Brisbane

Patterson Lakes, bayside Melbourne, Australia

Rarely Frost

2005 Minimum: 2.6C,  Maximum: 44C

2005 Average: 17.2C, warmest on record.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 8/25/2022 at 9:40 PM, iDesign said:

Incredibly helpful information! As owner of 24 different Dypsis types, I was pretty excited for the new data to come out. Interestingly all of mine are still in the same group ("Chrysalidocarpus").

Out of curiosity, is this chart useful for selecting possible palms to hybridize? I've heard that plants which are closer on the DNA family tree are more likely to hybridize than those which are further apart... but perhaps any two Dypsis within the "Chrysalidocarpus" group might be a possible target for hybridization? The two ingredients for "Tribear" (dacaryi & leptocheilos) in particular appear to be pretty far apart on the chart. 🤔

tribear.thumb.png.84968d004d8f8efb63bfce864703f710.png

Obviously, the only way to know for sure is to try... I was just curious if the chart might be useful for predicting possible hybridization pairs.

Thank you again for making possible a giant leap forward in the science of my favorite palm type! :wub:

I read Chrysalidocarpus decaryi 1 and 2. What does this suppose to mean?

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  • 1 month later...

Thanks for all the great work done to achieve this outcome. I've noticed that the palm databases haven't been updated yet with the new information. I can understand that it may take some time.  It does make me wonder if the changes are effective immediately?

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