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Update on some London palms


UK_Palms
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There's too many locations to specify exactly, but most of these have their locations in the top left if they are street view images...

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Edited by UK_Palms
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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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  • 4 weeks later...

Update on some more London Washies...

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Also a London backyard CIDP that I haven't posted before. There is so much lurking in back yards that can't be seen.

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Romola Road CIDP in south London...

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Ravensbury Road CIDP in south London...

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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Update on the River Gardens CIDP in Fulham, central London.

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Also an update on the Addison Road CIDP’s in central London.

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I also checked up on that Robusta out near Heathrow airport. While being one of the hottest parts of the city during summer, west London is also one of the coldest parts of the city during winter. 

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Also the washingtonia along Old Brompton Road.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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More updates...

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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Amazing pics it would be good if the local councils in London planted more palms in parks to really give that tropical look 

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Any Archontophoenix cunninghamiana, Rhopalostylis sapida, Howea forsteriana, or Parajubaea on the British Isles?

Andrei W. Konradi, Burlingame, California.  Vicarious appreciator of palms in other people's gardens and in habitat

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2 minutes ago, awkonradi said:

Any Archontophoenix cunninghamiana, Rhopalostylis sapida, Howea forsteriana, or Parajubaea on the British Isles?

Yes everyone of those here.

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4 hours ago, Samuel said:

Amazing pics it would be good if the local councils in London planted more palms in parks to really give that tropical look 

Yeah I agree. I just wish they imported CIDP’s and Washies that are already a decent size! Think how big they will get then! Although it is even more impressive knowing that all these UK palm trees that we have been posting were planted so small and have since grown to such huge sizes! That does make it even more special, especially this far from the equator as well. Only being able to plant tiny little palms, which then grow up to be monsters at 50-51N latitude. Amazing!

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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Awesome Pics!! Do the desert palm species (i.e. CIDP) develop fungal issues with all the rainfall? Also, I'd expect the couple of times a century winter bombs to wipe out most palms there, no? I think in the 60s it hit like 3 degrees Fahrenheit.  

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4 minutes ago, EPaul said:

Awesome Pics!! Do the desert palm species (i.e. CIDP) develop fungal issues with all the rainfall? Also, I'd expect the couple of times a century winter bombs to wipe out most palms there, no? I think in the 60s it hit like 3 degrees Fahrenheit.  

There are no fungal issues with CIDP or Washingtonia in London. The average rainfall is only around 22 inches with a warm-summer Med-like climate nowadays. This summer just gone was a Csb summer with 40C / 104F in July and no rainfall and about 1 inch of rain across all 3 summer months. Many true Med regions actually receive more annual rainfall than London. It is actually a fairly dry city and quite a bit drier than the global average. There is a notable dry period from about April - September. 

Regarding winter temperatures, the historic records are from northwest London where it is further inland away from the coast, higher elevation and less of a UHI effect. If one of those spots reached 3F in the 60’s, central London probably wouldn’t have gone below 15F. I think the historic low at Greenwich in east London is 18F. Central London near the Natural History museum has supposedly never gone below 22F, even during the 1987 cold event. Central London didn’t go below 23-24F during the 2010 cold event either.

I would also be inclined to say that extreme cold like in 63’ or 87’ isn’t possible anymore due to the colossal UHI nowadays and also due to climate change. London has warmed at least 2-3C / 5F over the past 30 years, both in terms of winter and summer temperatures. At street level in central London they don’t go below 1C / 34F most winters. East central London along the Thames is almost 10a. It’s like there are separate mini-microclimates existing within other microclimates in London.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

There are no fungal issues with CIDP or Washingtonia in London. The average rainfall is only around 22 inches with a warm-summer Med-like climate nowadays. This summer just gone was a Csb summer with 40C / 104F in July and no rainfall and about 1 inch of rain across all 3 summer months. Many true Med regions actually receive more annual rainfall than London. It is actually a fairly dry city and quite a bit drier than the global average. There is a notable dry period from about April - September. 

Regarding winter temperatures, the historic records are from northwest London where it is further inland away from the coast, higher elevation and less of a UHI effect. If one of those spots reached 3F in the 60’s, central London probably wouldn’t have gone below 15F. I think the historic low at Greenwich in east London is 18F. Central London near the Natural History museum has supposedly never gone below 22F, even during the 1987 cold event. Central London didn’t go below 23-24F during the 2010 cold event either.

I would also be inclined to say that extreme cold like in 63’ or 87’ isn’t possible anymore due to the colossal UHI nowadays and also due to climate change. London has warmed at least 2-3C / 5F over the past 30 years, both in terms of winter and summer temperatures. At street level in central London they don’t go below 1C / 34F most winters. East central London along the Thames is almost 10a. It’s like there are separate mini-microclimates existing within other microclimates in London.

While there are wunderground stations all across central London there aren't any in the super compact street areas such as soho or the city of London so there are definitely warmer areas than the warmest wunderground stations in London. Going off that and kentia palms in pots there never get damaged, I would say those parts on average are a zone 10a. The low on the covent garden wunderground stations was 32.2f/0.1c this year in January and 37f/2.7c in February. So what you said about it not going below 1c most years is probably accurate in the warmest parts. Pretty much any where with no large parks near by. It's really hard to class each part of London in what zone it is because a couple hundred meters can make a significant difference between a zone 9b and 10a. I might needs to make an educated guess hardiness map for central London going off wunderground data and guessing the rest off how dense the buildings are and if it's near water as I don't think the ones at the moment are very accurate.

Edited by Foxpalms
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Are there any documented phoenix dactylifera currently growing in London (street view) since that should be fine here. I might of seen one somewhere but not alot. I've read lots of  people in the UK keep saying they are unable to grow here, though the majority of the people saying that where near the coast in the south west which is too wet and humid for dactylifera with not enough heat but with the lower humidity and rainfall and much higher summer heat it should do better in London. For me they are easy to grow outside probably the mejol date is the best suited variety.  Probably doesn't help they are slow growing and not readily available and hard to find for sale here. Sabals as well are palms that need to be planted here in London.

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3 hours ago, awkonradi said:

Any Archontophoenix cunninghamiana, Rhopalostylis sapida, Howea forsteriana, or Parajubaea on the British Isles?

Here 

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Edited by Foxpalms
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On 9/14/2022 at 6:58 PM, Foxpalms said:

While there are wunderground stations all across central London there aren't any in the super compact street areas such as soho or the city of London so there are definitely warmer areas than the warmest wunderground stations in London. Going off that and kentia palms in pots there never get damaged, I would say those parts on average are a zone 10a. The low on the covent garden wunderground stations was 32.2f/0.1c this year in January and 37f/2.7c in February. So what you said about it not going below 1c most years is probably accurate in the warmest parts. Pretty much any where with no large parks near by. It's really hard to class each part of London in what zone it is because a couple hundred meters can make a significant difference between a zone 9b and 10a. I might needs to make an educated guess hardiness map for central London going off wunderground data and guessing the rest off how dense the buildings are and if it's near water as I don't think the ones at the moment are very accurate.

It really is surprising.  It's quite similar here in Manchester, there's definitely no 10a here but you could argue a case for the central urban areas to be 9b.  In the last decade there has only been one 9a winter which was 2018 (down to -5ºC in central parts).  I just write the whole area down to 9a since those temperatures could in theory occur any winter, although by far most winters are 9b.  I also agree with @UK_Palms it's lamentable that only tiny palms are available in garden centres, which could take decades to get to any reasonable size.  I have a slight regret about having bought a £20 CIDP about 7 years ago, planted it 3 years ago, and it's going to take forever.  Ordering a bigger one online for over £100 would give a huge head start since they are so slow when young.

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Manchester, Lancashire, England

53.4ºN, 2.2ºW, 65m AMSL

Köppen climate Cfb | USDA hardiness zone 9a

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3 hours ago, Ryland said:

It really is surprising.  It's quite similar here in Manchester, there's definitely no 10a here but you could argue a case for the central urban areas to be 9b.  In the last decade there has only been one 9a winter which was 2018 (down to -5ºC in central parts).  I just write the whole area down to 9a since those temperatures could in theory occur any winter, although by far most winters are 9b.  I also agree with @UK_Palms it's lamentable that only tiny palms are available in garden centres, which could take decades to get to any reasonable size.  I have a slight regret about having bought a £20 CIDP about 7 years ago, planted it 3 years ago, and it's going to take forever.  Ordering a bigger one online for over £100 would give a huge head start since they are so slow when young.

The USDA hardiness zone is based upon the average coldest  temperature of each year which would be 9b for all of central London, going to the higher end of 9b the further into the urban heat island, possibly some of the outskirts areas that are densely urbanised are a low 9b and microclimates within central London's urban heat island microclimate are a low 10a (the extremely dense parts that are also near water).  While Washingtonia are easy to get even large here I've seen 15ft+ ones for sale they are from specialized places where you have to be looking for them. The average garden center wont have large Washingtonia or Canary Island date palms (10ft+). If the average garden center also had more choice, queen's, kings, sabals, more phenix species for sale, even if they were labelled house plants I imagine we would see those pooping up more. Since unfortunately the majority of people are not going to be too interested in the palm species or trying to find a harder to get one they will just buy what's available at the garden center, which will be the majority of plantings in London. Norfolk Island pines and Yucca elephantipes are quite easy to get so that's probably why those are starting to popup as people have probably planted them when they get too big. I wonder if people will do the same with kentia palms as well when they get too big for their pots. I would imagine as the summers and winters get warmer gardens centers will start getting a better  variety of palms since we supposedly will be as hot as Barcelona by 2050 I doubt that since I can't see how the summers will be 29c as an average high with a average low of 23c and a winter average high of 15c and an average low of 9c. I think that's a bit too optimistic maybe 2c higher on average the summers I can see averaging 28c by then but not 15c in the winter maybe 12c though but with those temperatures syagrus romanzoffianana will probably become common in garden centers.

Edited by Foxpalms
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On 9/17/2022 at 1:46 PM, Foxpalms said:

The USDA hardiness zone is based upon the average coldest  temperature of each year which would be 9b for all of central London, going to the higher end of 9b the further into the urban heat island

Going by the average coldest temperature of each year, much of central Manchester and continuous suburbs (including Stockport where I am) would probably be 9b then.  There aren't any weather stations with a long history in the urban areas, the only Met Office ones are in much cooler spots like Manchester Airport and out in the fields near Rochdale (elevated).  It is odd that the Met Office don't run a station in any of Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, or Newcastle.  There's a semi-professional station with 13 years of history now in one of the outer urban areas on the way to the airport, with an average annual low over the last 10 years at 23.9ºF.  It's always a couple degrees colder at night though than my home station and the city centre ones, e.g. the 2021 low temperature was -5.1ºC there compared to -2.2ºC here.

I too doubt London would be as warm as Barcelona anytime soon.  It seems possible that within the next few decades though we could be seeing average winter daytime highs over 10ºC there. Maybe a trajectory towards a climate like Galicia on the Atlantic coast of northern Spain.  Perhaps by then garden centres will offer a bit more choice, but for the time being certainly any unusual palm varieties will only be grown by people who sought them out specifically.

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Manchester, Lancashire, England

53.4ºN, 2.2ºW, 65m AMSL

Köppen climate Cfb | USDA hardiness zone 9a

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3 hours ago, Ryland said:

Going by the average coldest temperature of each year, much of central Manchester and continuous suburbs (including Stockport where I am) would probably be 9b then.  There aren't any weather stations with a long history in the urban areas, the only Met Office ones are in much cooler spots like Manchester Airport and out in the fields near Rochdale (elevated).  It is odd that the Met Office don't run a station in any of Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, or Newcastle.  There's a semi-professional station with 13 years of history now in one of the outer urban areas on the way to the airport, with an average annual low over the last 10 years at 23.9ºF.  It's always a couple degrees colder at night though than my home station and the city centre ones, e.g. the 2021 low temperature was -5.1ºC there compared to -2.2ºC here.

I too doubt London would be as warm as Barcelona anytime soon.  It seems possible that within the next few decades though we could be seeing average winter daytime highs over 10ºC there. Maybe a trajectory towards a climate like Galicia on the Atlantic coast of northern Spain.  Perhaps by then garden centres will offer a bit more choice, but for the time being certainly any unusual palm varieties will only be grown by people who sought them out specifically.

The summers I can see being as hot as Barcelona just not the winters. Unfortunately since Barcelona's winters would allow things such as royal palms and Bismarckia to grow. I've seen quite a few more unusual plants in garden centers this year for sale Norfolk Island pines, sabal minor, jade plants, lots of cacti and larger sized Washingtonia. Of course much more impressive palms at plant nurseries, hopefully it slowly keeps improving. 

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Here are some more London CIDP's that haven't been posted before. They're not exactly small either. It shows how common they are becoming. The first two photos show more London CIDP's that haven't been shown on here before.

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The Westway one is really stacking on size now

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CIDP overload in the capital...

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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The news story says they are doing badly because of the cold which I doubt is the case. It's much more likely they are not liking the wet humid climate of Torbay and lack of high  summer heat. They are removing them, they should just send them to central London instead where because of the much higher summer heat and lower humidity and rainfall they would do much better rather than waste them. They don't even look that messy there just a bit.

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Edited by Foxpalms
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2 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

The news story says they are doing badly because of the cold which I doubt is the case. It's much more likely they are not liking the wet humid climate of Torbay and lack of high  summer heat. They are removing them, they should just send them to central London instead where because of the much higher summer heat and lower humidity and rainfall they would do much better rather than waste them. They don't even look that messy there just a bit.

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Are you sure they are CIDPs? I am not sure but  they look like Dactyliferas to me. If so, I would bet their decline has not been due so much to lack of summer heat or to too much rain and humidity, but maybe to not have been well planted or something wrong with the soil they were planted in. Or, maybe, they have not been well watered. I don´t know.

These dactyliferas are in a wharf, on the north coast of Spain. They do lack of heat ( 20ºC average for August, the hottest month, for the town they are in. In the wharf, it will be even milder, for sure) and see 1.200 litres of rain a year, on average , and the humidity is high, since they are out in the sea. They have been growing there for over 20 years now and look pretty happy, despite having been planted pretty big. They haven´t grown much though.

 

 

According to google maps , they were planted in 2015 and dug out in 2018/19. Maybe they haven´t had enough time to settle properly. They shouldn´t have dug them up.

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4632425,-3.5336379,3a,75y,347.04h,82.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sF15HNIZy44YmOfu7e8AVTw!2e0!5s20150401T000000!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4632405,-3.5336503,3a,75y,347.04h,82.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srf6pZAch0u92YtMlRPbpYg!2e0!5s20180801T000000!7i13312!8i6656

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@guruguThe news article is only 24 hours old so that's strange. Torquay gets about 32 inches/812mm of rain but it's the high humidity there that probably is worse. The average annual temperature is 13c in Torquay. I agree they should of left them or sent them to London. Hopefully the council plant some in London because they have a high chance of doing well and growing some good spots in central London averaged as a csa this year with at least 1 month averaging 22c or over and July and Augusts average high was over 27c.  Dactylifera here grow pretty fast in July and August and moderately in May, June, September and October the rest of the year they are very slow growing. Only damage they might get is the tips go slightly brown during wetter periods in winter.  Which variety are those growing in spain, the medjool variety is supposed to be the  best for more humid areas from what I've read.

 

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16 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

Has there been an update on the hybrid Phoenix palm in London?

I visited it on Thursday along with a ton of other London palms. A BIG update is on the way. London is going to be matching northern California for palms. Unbelievable amount of big Washingtona lurking out there which I have got photos of. More 20-30 footers that haven't been posted before. Also @gurugu is correct that they planted Dactylifera's in Torquay, except they had awful transplants with hardly any roots at all and they were planted right on the exposed seafront when they should have been planted in London like you say. Even Trachy's get battered and the fronds look like crap right on the Torquay seafront. CIDP's are the only thing that really stands up to the wind and saltspray. Unlike in London where there is barely any wind and no salt spray. Not to mention more sunshine hours, less rainfall and more heat, which Dactylifera's need to thrive.

One thing about London, which I will post about tomorrow, is all the CIDP's self seeding with specimens popping up all over the place. I don't know whether it is due to the summer heat, but I don't really see any CIDP's actually self seeding on the coast, even though they produce viable seed. In London the seeds actually drop, germinate quickly and start growing. I saw thousands of seedlings growing under multiple palms on Thursday in London. Some already strap leaf now and soon to be pinnate. London has the best climate for palms in the UK, except for maybe Tresco. Wait until you see my upload tomorrow or over weekend. Pristine silver Brahea Armata's that are fast becoming one of the best palms for London, although slow growing. Interestingly I have never seen a bad Brahea Armata in London. I know fo 6-7 biggish specimens and they all look fantastic. CIDP's absolutely reign supreme though. I have photos of me hand feeding the wild parakeets as well. 

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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On 9/22/2022 at 11:37 AM, Foxpalms said:

Has there been an update on the hybrid Phoenix palm in London?

Do you mean this one?  I visited in November.  If so, seems canariensis to me, just a bit weird due to being so shade grown.

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Manchester, Lancashire, England

53.4ºN, 2.2ºW, 65m AMSL

Köppen climate Cfb | USDA hardiness zone 9a

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1 hour ago, Ryland said:

Do you mean this one?  I visited in November.  If so, seems canariensis to me, just a bit weird due to being so shade grown.

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Def not CIDP, most probably a hybrid between CIDP and reclinata?

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45 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Def not CIDP, most probably a hybrid between CIDP and reclinata?

I though it was CIDP and a true date palm hybrid but I could be wrong. Very strange looking palm, kind of looks like a parajubaea, a triangle palm and a phoenix at the same time 

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1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

Def not CIDP, most probably a hybrid between CIDP and reclinata?

I was waiting for you to comment on this. I was going to reach out to you on the EPS about what you thought it was. So you say it could be a hybrid with Reclinata possibly? Interesting.

@Foxpalms I visited this very palm in question yesterday and a big update is coming. I may need a new thread though for that trip, since I have dug out new backyard Washintonia's, multiple Brahea's, aggressively self seeding CIDP's, citrus all sorts of things. I am going to put up a crazy thread for it tonight.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

I was waiting for you to comment on this. I was going to reach out to you on the EPS about what you thought it was. So you say it could be a hybrid with Reclinata possibly? 

Well, I have a very similar hybrid bought as reclinata, so I assume that mine must have at least also reclinata as progenitor, although I tend to consider it rather a cross between CIDP and sylvestris. Anyway about this specimen we better look at close up pictures of the petioles.

Edited by Phoenikakias
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Butia also self seed here as well has anyone documented any Washingtonia self seeding in the uk? These palms are extremely easy to germinate so if one seeds in London there will likely be hundred of seedlings. 

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On 9/23/2022 at 9:00 PM, Phoenikakias said:

Well, I have a very similar hybrid bought as reclinata, so I assume that mine must have at least also reclinata as progenitor, although I tend to consider it rather a cross between CIDP and sylvestris. Anyway about this specimen we better look at close up pictures of the petioles.

This may not be much help, but it's the best photo I got of the petioles.

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Here's a whole frond if it's any help

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Manchester, Lancashire, England

53.4ºN, 2.2ºW, 65m AMSL

Köppen climate Cfb | USDA hardiness zone 9a

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15 hours ago, Ryland said:

This may not be much help, but it's the best photo I got of the petioles.

image.thumb.jpeg.e49bf8675cd42915976fe491b462514f.jpeg

Here's a whole frond if it's any help

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Compare please20220926_134605.thumb.jpg.a8bdb30f4956e9c9977783be52e7072e.jpg20220926_134632.thumb.jpg.790b5e08dc295862b87bfdfebcc92d9f.jpg20220926_134632.thumb.jpg.790b5e08dc295862b87bfdfebcc92d9f.jpg

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16 hours ago, Ryland said:

This may not be much help, but it's the best photo I got of the petioles.

image.thumb.jpeg.e49bf8675cd42915976fe491b462514f.jpeg

Here's a whole frond if it's any help

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@Phoenikakias I posted about this palm in my recent trip to central London, but here they are again to add to it. If this was a Reclinata, wouldn’t it be suckering quite a bit by now? Unless the gardener has removed the suckers? What is the likelihood of it being a Loureiroi? I have seen quite a few shade grown CIDP’s and they don’t look like this. I don’t really see any Dactylifera or Sylvestris in it.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@Phoenikakias I posted about this palm in my recent trip to central London, but here they are again to add to it. If this was a Reclinata, wouldn’t it be suckering quite a bit by now? Unless the gardener has removed the suckers? What is the likelihood of it being a Loureiroi? I have seen quite a few shade grown CIDP’s and they don’t look like this. I don’t really see any Dactylifera or Sylvestris in it.

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It is too huge for a loureiroi.  The span of the fronds should not extend beyond the 2 m according to official description.  Sylvestris has an untidy frond, on the other hand reclinata is very tidy. The combination could match the look of this plant.  Caespitose habit may depend on various factors such as gender, growing conditions and lastly the genes of the progenitors themselves. There are some reclinata of solitary status just like theophrasti, and as far as latter is concerned, all solitary individuals are male. Even my own hybrid started as strongly suckering and now this trait faded off.  Btw it is also male. Here are side by side crowns of CIDP (porphyrocarpa) and my hybrid's. It certainly has this untidy look.

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Edited by Phoenikakias
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The trunk looks like a dactylifera and the fronds look similar to reclinata. That's a CIDP x reclinata 

Screenshot_20220926-183746381 (1).jpg

Edited by Foxpalms
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25 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

The trunk looks like a dactylifera and the fronds look similar to reclinata.

When I said that I don't see Dactylifera in it, I was referring to the fronds. I agree the trunk does look quite Dacty-like. Although Phoenikakas says the fronds look like Reclinata and he knows more than either of us combined when it comes to the Phoenix genus. I doubt it is a Dacty x Reclinata hybrid surely? It's going to be impossible to tell for sure whether it is a Reclinata, or a hybrid of some kind, or even just regular CIDP showing different characteristics due to environment (shade grown). It seems Reclinata is becoming the safe bet now, based on Phoenikakias's input.

I'm not convinced we'll discover what it is as it continues to get bigger either. It has been planted there for quite a few years now. We may have to contact someone involved with Lincoln Inn Fields to find out perhaps. I wonder whether Kew may have donated to them a particular (rare) specimen or something, which they sometimes do. Kew give away a lot of specimens to gardens in Cornwall and London to plant. Also the central stalk bit of the petiole looks too thin to be CIDP as well. I say that as someone who has photographed hundreds of London and UK CIDP's in recent weeks. A number of traits just seem 'off' about it. Like it's a weird Phoenix specimen. 

I'm curious to hear other people's opinions on what it may be? Certainly those with a botany background. What do you reckon? @Silas_Sancona @Xenon @gurugu

Edited by UK_Palms
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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

When I said that I don't see Dactylifera in it, I was referring to the fronds. I agree the trunk does look quite Dacty-like. Although Phoenikakas says the fronds look like Reclinata and he knows more than either of us combined when it comes to the Phoenix genus. I doubt it is a Dacty x Reclinata hybrid surely? It's going to be impossible to tell for sure whether it is a Reclinata, or a hybrid of some kind, or even just regular CIDP showing different characteristics due to environment (shade grown). It seems Reclinata is becoming the safe bet now, based on Phoenikakias's input.

I'm not convinced we'll discover what it is as it continues to get bigger either. It has been planted there for quite a few years now. We may have to contact someone involved with Lincoln Inn Fields to find out perhaps. I wonder whether Kew may have donated to them a particular (rare) specimen or something, which they sometimes do. Kew give away a lot of specimens to gardens in Cornwall and London to plant. Also the central stalk bit of the petiole looks too thin to be CIDP as well. I say that as someone who has photographed hundreds of London and UK CIDP's in recent weeks. A number of traits just seem 'off' about it. Like it's a weird Phoenix specimen. 

I'm curious to hear other people's opinions on what it may be? Certainly those with a botany background. What do you reckon? @Silas_Sancona @Xenon @gurugu

I am not good at telling Phoenix hybrids apart. As you say, the trunk does look like as a Dactylifera´s. You are also right that palms under heavy  shade behave oddly.

For example: This 25 years old Livistona chinensis of mine, has always been under heavy shade.  Two years ago, I cut down the eucalyptus behind it. That´s the reason it was soo tiny yet. Look at the difference between new and old petioles. These are three times longer but spineless, while the new ones do have spines on them. All because it has enough light now.

What I mean is that the London palm could not be a hybrid, but a Dactylifera or a Canariensis playing weird things.

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