Jump to content
  • WELCOME GUEST

    It looks as if you are viewing PalmTalk as an unregistered Guest.

    Please consider registering so as to take better advantage of our vast knowledge base and friendly community.  By registering you will gain access to many features - among them are our powerful Search feature, the ability to Private Message other Users, and be able to post and/or answer questions from all over the world. It is completely free, no “catches,” and you will have complete control over how you wish to use this site.

    PalmTalk is sponsored by the International Palm Society. - an organization dedicated to learning everything about and enjoying palm trees (and their companion plants) while conserving endangered palm species and habitat worldwide. Please take the time to know us all better and register.

    guest Renda04.jpg

Best Cycad for wet 8A


ZPalms

Recommended Posts

If I really need to do during ice events I could just build a temporary shelter but I've seen some large cycads in town either under trees or fully exposed but that's only Cycas revoluta, but I'm gonna buy cycas revoluta x taitungensis to get some speed

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does anyone leave their cycad unpruned? I love the look of it, at least with revoluta it looks like tiny CIDP,  I saw an amazing one a couple days ago I wish I could find it was a sago planted like a coconut tree over a pool it looked so cool

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/14/2022 at 11:44 PM, Zeni said:

Cycads grow very slowly and do well in pots. Some botanical gardens in England have specimens that were kept in pots for a century.  IMO, better to grow them in a pot in zone 8. 

From videos I have seen of zone pushers in London who put them in the ground is that tend to become yellowly due to the high rainfall. 

The ones I have don't go yellow in London in ground  we only have 22 inches of rainfall annually. London is zone 9a (outskirts) 9b (central London) so it's no really zone pushing and they grow well and don't have any issues never need protection ect. Maybe the ones you have seen have bad drainage or some type of deficiency as mine and the ones I've seen look fine. The ones in some other parts of the UK though where they do get a lot of rainfall can go a bit yellow during the winter such as places like Newquay Cornwall.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/18/2022 at 3:54 PM, Merlyn said:

@Turtlesteve I think you are right on Dioon Edule.  A lot of them survived very cold temps in the upper 20s, but TCHP said at one point that they don't like to be really cold and wet at the same time.  I haven't had any rot problems with them, but the coldest I've recorded is 24.4F here in Orlando.  That's totally different from SC/NC.

I read that C. Hildae is supposed to be 10-12F hardy, though I don't remember where that came from.  I have one in the ground in part sun and it's doing great so far. 

I don't think a single Dioon in Austin or Houston was lost and it was plenty wet and cold in Texas during the big freeze and several others freezes. I think if you plant them correctly they are fine. I have lost several cycads, including Cycas panzihuaensis due to overwatering that I have learned ALL cycads need good drainage. Dioon just can tolerate alkaline soil so they do fine in Texas. I am not sure how they would respond to acidic soil that is in NC or SC etc..

Speed is also relative, a regular sago I have never seen cone with under two feet of trunk, while a Dioon will cone with 4-6 inches.

Edited by Collectorpalms
  • Like 1

Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/22/2022 at 4:29 AM, Foxpalms said:

The ones I have don't go yellow in London in ground  we only have 22 inches of rainfall annually. London is zone 9a (outskirts) 9b (central London) so it's no really zone pushing and they grow well and don't have any issues never need protection ect. Maybe the ones you have seen have bad drainage or some type of deficiency as mine and the ones I've seen look fine. The ones in some other parts of the UK though where they do get a lot of rainfall can go a bit yellow during the winter such as places like Newquay Cornwall.

Technically it isn't zone pushing, but... really it is a different environment for subtropicals due to the low year-round temperatures and lack of a hot dry long summers which subtropicals tend to require to thrive. Hence, why I used 'zone pushers'.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a Taitungensis  that the dog got hold of and played with it for a while , but I've read that they are very hardy , as others have mentioned . 

I'll have to  keep it in its pot and plant it next year while it recovers from being a dog toy .

Will

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/17/2022 at 9:50 PM, Turtlesteve said:

I vote for cycas panzihuaensis as by far the best option.  I'm in 8A South Carolina in the sand hills region.  They look good, flush early in the spring (earlier than sagos) and grow faster than sago as well.  They'll lose leaves below 20F.  They can go straight into the ground with a 2-3" caudex no problem, just throw a cover over them if it gets below 20F for the first couple years.  The next best cycas seem to be taitungensis and guizhouensis.

Dioon's have done terrible for me.  I've killed several dioon edule.  It's not necessarily the cold that kills them it's cold+wet and they rot out.  It seems the people that succeed with them in 8A are often in TX (a little less wet) and they're fairly large plants.  Small ones will likely just die on you, and they also grow at an absolutely glacial pace.   So if you're gonna try one get the biggest plant you can find.  Note also I've not tried angustifolia yet.

Ceratozamia latifolia, kuesteriana, and hildae doing pretty good so far.  They are more leaf hardy than cycas panzihuaensis.  Growth rate seems slow so far, but not as slow as dioon.

 

On 6/18/2022 at 4:54 PM, Merlyn said:

@Turtlesteve I think you are right on Dioon Edule.  A lot of them survived very cold temps in the upper 20s, but TCHP said at one point that they don't like to be really cold and wet at the same time.  I haven't had any rot problems with them, but the coldest I've recorded is 24.4F here in Orlando.  That's totally different from SC/NC.

I read that C. Hildae is supposed to be 10-12F hardy, though I don't remember where that came from.  I have one in the ground in part sun and it's doing great so far. 

I’ll keep these in mind when I buy more cycads thanks!!! :D

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/24/2022 at 9:19 PM, ZPalms said:

My cycad arrives tomorrow and I'm so excited :greenthumb:

Did it arrive?

We're in suspense.:D

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, amh said:

Did it arrive?

We're in suspense.:D

They did come! :D I'm so happy and excited they are here! I ordered Cycas revoluta x taitungensis but @Scott W surpised me with a bonus Cycas revoluta x multifrondis which is so generous and exciting because I did want to get at least 2! :D

I think I potted them up correctly, I mimicked how I usally see them planted so hopefully I did it right :blush2:

The big one is Cycas revoluta x taitungensis and the smaller one is Cycas revoluta x multifrondis:wub:

IMG-2845.thumb.jpg.59efd464e85985f9cd8774802a7f4145.jpg

IMG-2846.thumb.jpg.b457bd7005a95a9ff282663c20617edb.jpg

IMG-2841.thumb.jpg.46e4e91b6b13b6d8298442578f5a9eed.jpg

IMG-2843.thumb.jpg.8350c4af6c069dd019fc766044cfced7.jpg

IMG-2842.thumb.jpg.d106ab3e7b5df5c40078056ab85fa982.jpg

Edited by ZPalms
  • Like 4
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, amh said:

looks great.

Congratulations!:greenthumb: 

Thanks! excited to learn about and observed them and watch them grow :D

Edited by ZPalms
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, ZPalms said:

Thanks! excited to learn about and observed them and watch them grow :D

This will be your new addiction. Just don't let the soil stay too wet and the plants will be fine. I usually use chlorothalonil as a fungicide during the winter and cool rainy seasons.

The Cycas revoluta x taitungensis is already at a good size and should grow fairly rapidly for a cycad and the Cycas revoluta x multifrondis will take off at about 3 years of age.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, amh said:

This will be your new addiction. Just don't let the soil stay too wet and the plants will be fine. I usually use chlorothalonil as a fungicide during the winter and cool rainy seasons.

The Cycas revoluta x taitungensis is already at a good size and should grow fairly rapidly for a cycad and the Cycas revoluta x multifrondis will take off at about 3 years of age.

I would love to get more but I gotta start with simple beginnings, Do you let your cycads sit in the rain or do you have it under shelter and should I expect fungus problems just from the cold? or if it's wet?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, ZPalms said:

I would love to get more but I gotta start with simple beginnings, Do you let your cycads sit in the rain or do you have it under shelter and should I expect fungus problems just from the cold? or if it's wet?

I'm in a different climate that has much lower humidity, but I usually let mine stay out in the rain, unless we're talking about raining for over a week. Someone on the east coast or eastern gulf coast could give you an appropriate answer. When it is cold and wet, the water is not evaporating and the roots can rot.

Keep your eyes open for the more common cycad seeds to become available, and start your own. Fresh seeds from Cycas revoluta, Dioon edule, Zamia floridana and Zamia furfuracea are usually available for low prices and are easy to germinate.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, amh said:

I'm in a different climate that has much lower humidity, but I usually let mine stay out in the rain, unless we're talking about raining for over a week. Someone on the east coast or eastern gulf coast could give you an appropriate answer. When it is cold and wet, the water is not evaporating and the roots can rot.

Keep your eyes open for the more common cycad seeds to become available, and start your own. Fresh seeds from Cycas revoluta, Dioon edule, Zamia floridana and Zamia furfuracea are usually available for low prices and are easy to germinate.

Oh that's good to know, I plan on letting them sit under the screen porch over the winter so they are still exposed to the cold but not rain or ice, I gotta get used to watering these now because I'm not familiar with the soil contents and how quick it dries.

Thanks for the tip and species names, I'm gonna remember that because I do wanna start my own from seed because it seems fun but I looked at Zamia floridana and I'm not sure if it's the same thing I'm thinking of but I think I saw one of them in the botanical garden here under tree canopy but I could be mistaking it for something else! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, ZPalms said:

Oh that's good to know, I plan on letting them sit under the screen porch over the winter so they are still exposed to the cold but not rain or ice, I gotta get used to watering these now because I'm not familiar with the soil contents and how quick it dries.

Thanks for the tip and species names, I'm gonna remember that because I do wanna start my own from seed because it seems fun but I looked at Zamia floridana and I'm not sure if it's the same thing I'm thinking of but I think I saw one of them in the botanical garden here under tree canopy but I could be mistaking it for something else! :D

Zamia integrifolia AKA Zamia floridana AKA coontie.

The zamia genus is great for containers because they can tolerate hot and humid conditions, as well as not being sharp or pointed.

The multifrodis will likely need more cold protection for now, but the revoluta X taitungensis should be able to handle colder temperatures.

My cold hardy, potted, seed grown plants will stay on the porch to mid to low teens, but my plants are acclimated to my cold and usually dry winters. Again you'll want more advice from someone in a similar climate.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ZPalms the potting soil and planting depth looks good to me!  The Rev x Multi looks like it is thinking about a flush.  If it holds off a month due to transplanting don't be concerned. 

As far as water goes, they are fine with daily thunderstorms in the summer here.  I'd leave them in a partly shady area for a month before moving into more sun.  Both should be able to take full sun in your area.  My seedlings from @Scott W and others all grow in my nursery area.  It gets dripline sprayer-on-a-stick overhead watering every morning.  The only ones that don't like that are some Encephalartos species, some of which are more desert-y kinds of plants.  But a fast draining mix and regular watering should work well for Revoluta, Taitungensis, and Multifrondis.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@ZPalms the potting soil and planting depth looks good to me!  The Rev x Multi looks like it is thinking about a flush.  If it holds off a month due to transplanting don't be concerned. 

As far as water goes, they are fine with daily thunderstorms in the summer here.  I'd leave them in a partly shady area for a month before moving into more sun.  Both should be able to take full sun in your area.  My seedlings from @Scott W and others all grow in my nursery area.  It gets dripline sprayer-on-a-stick overhead watering every morning.  The only ones that don't like that are some Encephalartos species, some of which are more desert-y kinds of plants.  But a fast draining mix and regular watering should work well for Revoluta, Taitungensis, and Multifrondis.

Thanks! :D I tried my best with the soil mix, I did thought I made a mistake by putting sand in the mix, but it seemed to work out fine because it was clogging the holes which I need to drill to be bigger, but the sand was making it muddy, so I squeezed the sand out of the mix, and then most of it ran out the bottom eventually, and now when I water it seems to go straight through. I believe :D

As of now, it's under shelter, so it gets morning sun and evening sun but nothing directly overhead, I would love to set up irrigation lines for my plants, but I don't know a thing about that. I have one of those pot irrigation kits, but I couldn't tell if they were doing their job or if I was doing it correctly. I use them now for my palmetto because the drainage in that area is terrible, and the water just pools even with slow drip haha. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ZPalms said:

Thanks! :D I tried my best with the soil mix, I did thought I made a mistake by putting sand in the mix, but it seemed to work out fine because it was clogging the holes which I need to drill to be bigger, but the sand was making it muddy, so I squeezed the sand out of the mix, and then most of it ran out the bottom eventually, and now when I water it seems to go straight through. I believe :D

As of now, it's under shelter, so it gets morning sun and evening sun but nothing directly overhead, I would love to set up irrigation lines for my plants, but I don't know a thing about that. I have one of those pot irrigation kits, but I couldn't tell if they were doing their job or if I was doing it correctly. I use them now for my palmetto because the drainage in that area is terrible, and the water just pools even with slow drip haha. :)

 

Glad you received and and I agree, great job in planting them!

Yeah for sand the builders sand can be a little too fine and in my experience it will do that.  I switched to pool filter sand when I need to use sand in my mix.

Enjoy!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Give your cycas rev x multfrondis plenty of room when you place in ground, they can get large. Here is one of mine 6yrs in the ground. (Plant was 3” when I put in ground.)I trimmed the leaves as the main caudex is splitting into two heads and leaves were effecting the cone development. 

 

120B02D0-DCEF-4B5E-B58D-B8F4F5E1032B.jpeg

Edited by Gallop
  • Like 5

Paul Gallop

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A picture of another rev x multfrondis not as big, but it will give you an idea how large they can get.

79796574-F838-45D3-9ED0-BE0ECAA63E0D.jpeg

Edited by Gallop
  • Like 8

Paul Gallop

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gallop yeah they get big, and they get there pretty fast.  I gave mine a good 6' diameter spot, and am planning on cutting off the older fronds to keep the total diameter down.  If it keeps 2 full ranks of fronds they could easily be 12' diameter.  This photo was posted here ~7 years ago, and was one of the ones that convinced me that I NEEDED some of them.  :D

2075789973_CycadRevolutasxDebaoensisAug2015.thumb.jpg.7ffb8b4b4fe208aa87ac71b3d33a90d6.jpg

  • Like 4
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/28/2022 at 8:11 AM, Gallop said:

A picture of another rev x multfrondis not as big, but it will give you an idea how large they can get.

79796574-F838-45D3-9ED0-BE0ECAA63E0D.jpeg

 

4 hours ago, Merlyn said:

@Gallop yeah they get big, and they get there pretty fast.  I gave mine a good 6' diameter spot, and am planning on cutting off the older fronds to keep the total diameter down.  If it keeps 2 full ranks of fronds they could easily be 12' diameter.  This photo was posted here ~7 years ago, and was one of the ones that convinced me that I NEEDED some of them.  :D

2075789973_CycadRevolutasxDebaoensisAug2015.thumb.jpg.7ffb8b4b4fe208aa87ac71b3d33a90d6.jpg

These are amazing!!!!!! I'm excited for mine to get giant, I don't think I'll ever prune the fronds unless they finish their cycle because I love the look of a very full crown of leaves for palms and cycads because I love the look of them.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I went outside to check on them after being gone all day and it looks like it’s growing right along regardless of being just transplanted :D

9093C028-2D3A-4EF5-BFAB-5AD8795F6BA2.jpeg

Edited by ZPalms
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I keep watching cycad videos and I keep hearing people say removing the fronds at the start of fall or cutting all the fronds makes a much better and happier sago ect but sagos in the wild don't have anyone coming out to prune them up or remove parts of the plant or clean them up so I don't really understand????

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, ZPalms said:

I keep watching cycad videos and I keep hearing people say removing the fronds at the start of fall or cutting all the fronds makes a much better and happier sago ect but sagos in the wild don't have anyone coming out to prune them up or remove parts of the plant or clean them up so I don't really understand????

There are many people that make videos that know nothing at all about cycads or palms.  :D  You can force a flush by cutting off all the fronds, but that's generally not a good idea.  If a cycad isn't flushing on a regular schedule then there's probably something going on that needs to be solved, like lack of nutrition, water, too much water, etc.  Cycads are much like palms, they "eat" the old fronds for nutrition and energy. 

Now, that being said, I routinely cut off old fronds when they start getting ratty looking.  And I prune some back for purely cosmetic reasons.  And I recently cut off several Encephalartos Hildebrandtii and Whitelockii fronds that were completely blocking my walkway in the SE corner.  If I don't trim them back it's guaranteed loss of skin and blood walking through there...  There are plenty of good cosmetic or clearance reasons to trim back fronds, but it doesn't make them a healthier plant.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cycas panzi x taitungensis should work for you. Mine have seen wet cold winters with no issues in Ocean Springs Ms

1940611F-191B-4750-95F0-AA47564C4415.jpeg

  • Like 6

Paul Gallop

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Merlyn said:

There are many people that make videos that know nothing at all about cycads or palms.  :D  You can force a flush by cutting off all the fronds, but that's generally not a good idea.  If a cycad isn't flushing on a regular schedule then there's probably something going on that needs to be solved, like lack of nutrition, water, too much water, etc.  Cycads are much like palms, they "eat" the old fronds for nutrition and energy. 

Now, that being said, I routinely cut off old fronds when they start getting ratty looking.  And I prune some back for purely cosmetic reasons.  And I recently cut off several Encephalartos Hildebrandtii and Whitelockii fronds that were completely blocking my walkway in the SE corner.  If I don't trim them back it's guaranteed loss of skin and blood walking through there...  There are plenty of good cosmetic or clearance reasons to trim back fronds, but it doesn't make them a healthier plant.

I thought so, It didn't make any sense to me how plants don't get pruned in the wild so why would that make them "healthier" because they were pruned! :mrlooney:

 

12 minutes ago, Gallop said:

Cycas panzi x taitungensis should work for you. Mine have seen wet cold winters with no issues in Ocean Springs Ms

1940611F-191B-4750-95F0-AA47564C4415.jpeg

That's gorgeous, I may need to find that one next because I love how feathery and tropical the leaves look!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Gallop said:

Cycas panzi x taitungensis should work for you. Mine have seen wet cold winters with no issues in Ocean Springs Ms

1940611F-191B-4750-95F0-AA47564C4415.jpeg

That's a stunner!

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thats a new flush. Here is a picture once hardened off. 

AD0F89A6-A52A-4419-8E72-DF9B8197216E.jpeg

  • Like 6

Paul Gallop

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Just some new photos, the one with the new leaf has some different sized leaflets but that’s probably from the transplant :blush2:

IMG_3446.jpeg

IMG_3448.thumb.jpg.1abb844dbd1541e556156d01d904f426.jpg

Edited by ZPalms
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think South facing, in your area, you can have success with Cycas Revoluta.  Maybe pot it up first, get acclimated to cold year round, burlap wrap around caudex or cover all of it during nights in the lower to mid 20’s (depending on the size).  Only bring inside during extreme, rare cold events with temps in the teens. Early morning sun after cold nights seems to be key (at least for me) Once it’s comfortable with cold, plant it facing South.

I’m in arguably the warmest part of Washington, DC, a neighborhood surrounded by the concrete jungle, with good morning sun, facing South, and my largest Sago hasn’t spent a night single winter night inside in the nearly 7 years I’ve had it.  New flush every year.  Though my urban location keeps the coldest winter nights much warmer than the surrounding areas, and warmer than many smaller towns far to the south of where I am, I’d take your climate in a heartbeat, and have no doubt you will have success with Cycads in your location.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/8/2022 at 11:24 PM, Gallop said:

Cycas panzi x taitungensis should work for you. Mine have seen wet cold winters with no issues in Ocean Springs Ms

1940611F-191B-4750-95F0-AA47564C4415.jpeg

Where did you source this beaut?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, DAVEinMB said:

Where did you source this beaut?

 

6 hours ago, DAVEinMB said:

Where did you source this beaut?

I got them from a guy in Atlanta that was making several different cycas hybrids, I don’t remember his name. If I hear of more, I’ll let you know. It’s a great plant that should be grown more. 

  • Like 2

Paul Gallop

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are many ceratozamia that will live in cold wet climates. Provided they have good drainage they should grow trouble free. Definitely one of my favorite plant groups to grow. 

2A850B11-0324-47E6-A88F-6E8D76770B59.jpeg

  • Like 2

Paul Gallop

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/14/2022 at 11:55 PM, ZPalms said:

Good point, I don't have much money so I'm trying to find a good cycad thats cheap even if I gotta grow the seed myself, I'm all good with regular common sago

I ordered mine online from Tractor Supply! They came from Costa Farms and they were really nice plants and inexpensive. Go to their Website and it gives a list of stores that sell them. Walmart is one you can order online. Mine looked tough after the first winter in the garage, then transplanting, but now they both sprouted new fronds and off to a good start again! They say if the trunk is hard they are fine. Even if all the fronds are cut off! I read up a lot about them. They love coffee grounds! 

BCD26CDA-37F4-44D2-8B9E-1F1D026C49AE.jpeg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know I'm in Raleigh, zone 7b, and I've planted multiple regular Revoluta in my yard. The ice storm burned their fronds this past winter but I cut them all off in the spring and they all pushed out new fronds. I've purchased most of these off the sad house plant cart at Lowes. And I never go to Lowes without first seeing if a sago needs to be rescued from that cart first. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/7/2022 at 12:20 PM, Gaga Iowa/Arkansas said:

I ordered mine online from Tractor Supply! They came from Costa Farms and they were really nice plants and inexpensive. Go to their Website and it gives a list of stores that sell them. Walmart is one you can order online. Mine looked tough after the first winter in the garage, then transplanting, but now they both sprouted new fronds and off to a good start again! They say if the trunk is hard they are fine. Even if all the fronds are cut off! I read up a lot about them. They love coffee grounds! 

BCD26CDA-37F4-44D2-8B9E-1F1D026C49AE.jpeg

I went to their website I could find any :(

 

6 hours ago, knikfar said:

You know I'm in Raleigh, zone 7b, and I've planted multiple regular Revoluta in my yard. The ice storm burned their fronds this past winter but I cut them all off in the spring and they all pushed out new fronds. I've purchased most of these off the sad house plant cart at Lowes. And I never go to Lowes without first seeing if a sago needs to be rescued from that cart first. 

I always check the sad plant cart, i hate seeing the plants like that, I wish I could save them all. That’s were I got my majesty from and it’s doing great and my roebellni that sadly didn’t make it

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...