Who said Sabals need heat?

[ShadyDan]

I'm sure most of you are aware of the record-breaking, dreadful spring we are having in the PNW... So far I have only cracked 20C ONE day this year. Yes that's right, one day. Most years 20C is about the normal daytime high for late May. and we start having some 20C and sunny days starting in mid-April On top of the unseasonably cool weather, it has also been grey and wet with sunny days few and far between. However, I am pleasantly surprised to see my Sabal palmetto chugging along despite the weather. I've heard in the past that Sabals need temperatures over 25C to grow, but the growth on mine (which hasn't even come close to seeing that temp this year) would say otherwise. The first picture is the palm today and the second is from March earlier this year. That little nub of a spear has almost completely opened up! I know I know.... probably not impressive for you folks in the SE, but its a small victory to raise my spirits this spring. Looking forward to some actual warm weather when everything can really start taking off.

 

[Jtee]

It’s cute and all but I’m in the SE and my Sabal palmettos, Louisiana and Mexicana are all pushing out their third frond

[Alex Zone 5]

Indeed impressive, please do post more uptade in the next months.

Thanks 

[Chester B]

Looks good @ShadyDan and it does seem to be moving along. Warmer weather has finally been coming my way so I’m sure it will work it’s way up there. My Sabal Birmingham I planted about a month ago is actually growing as well. The rest of my established Sabals haven’t moved much this year so far but at least they all still look good after our crappy Winter/Spring. 
 

A little inspiration. 86” to the top of the fronds and each front is 54” not including the petiole. My largest Sabal and fastest growing one as well. 

[Chester B]

100 lb dogs in for scale. 

[RJ]

They definitely like heat, however, they still grow in cool. I’ve got a sabal causiarum that put on about 3” over the winter. It’s currently on its 3rd leaf. Marked it yesterday late afternoon, by 10 am this morning it had pushed 1/4” of new growth. Been in the 90’s with lows in the upper 60’s to low 70’s. Sabal weather 

[ShadyDan]

Mine was also only planted last year but still did 3 fronds. I’m hoping this year it speeds up a little bit once the warm comes. 
 

I’m also stoked to see how flawless it looked after our winter we had. It looks better than my Sabal minor for whatever reason. 

[Chester B]

11 hours ago, ShadyDan said:

Mine was also only planted last year but still did 3 fronds. I’m hoping this year it speeds up a little bit once the warm comes. 
 

I’m also stoked to see how flawless it looked after our winter we had. It looks better than my Sabal minor for whatever reason. 

The most I've gotten out of Sabal here is between 3 and 4 fronds.  The heat and length of summer plays a big role, as well as how many warm nights (~70F) you get.  I'd be surprised if you get more than 3, I find they don't speed up any more once they're producing fan shaped leaves.

I have a minor that is almost 6 years in the ground and it will regularly produce only 2-3 fronds per year.  Size didn't seem to matter, but at the same time the actual mass of each frond is much greater than they used to be, so same number of fronds but each year they get bigger.

[ShadyDan]

Still cruising along well. Spear #3 on its way out for the year, with lots of warm temperatures left for the season. Might even see #4 show up before winter kicks in. 

[Chester B]

All my medium to large Sabals have pushed 3 fronds so far. The slowest is Sabal Birmingham which is working on its second. 
 

And I finally got a decent size palmetto today. Now I have to figure out where to put it. 

[ShadyDan]

25 minutes ago, Chester B said:

All my medium to large Sabals have pushed 3 fronds so far. The slowest is Sabal Birmingham which is working on its second. 
 

And I finally got a decent size palmetto today. Now I have to figure out where to put it. 

Better be seeing some pics. 

[Chester B]

[Chester B]

Sabal brazoriensis with flowers (super late this year) and Sabal Louisiana #1

[Chester B]

Louisiana #2 and Sabal minor 

[GregVirginia7]

9 hours ago, Chester B said:

Sabal brazoriensis with flowers (super late this year) and Sabal Louisiana #1

Nice to see the Brazoria…I have seeds as well after 8-years or so in ground…will have 4 new huge fronds by winter…really took off this year with a mild winter followed by pretty normal rain amounts to present…although last few weeks have been a bit dry.

It’s trying to take on the Trachy but this one added maybe 18” or so to trunk height this season, though the Brazoria’s frond height is gaining ground…new fronds have that bluish look to them again and they are huge. You can get a bit of perspective against the Trachy fronds.

 

From its early days…

Great palm for zone 7…my only trunking Sabal…

[sonoranfans]

depends on how fast 7you want them to grow, heat is much better for speed.  here is 9 years from one the size of yours

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

12 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

depends on how fast 7you want them to grow, heat is much better for speed.  here is 9 years from one the size of yours

Your weather is like cheating for the rest of us haha Basically year a round growing season 😃 I haven't seen a Sabal in Maui yet but I can imagine they would be rockets, especially Causiarum

T J 

[Is that alive]

Mine has been painstakingly slow.  Very long cool spring and then too much shade from passion fruit.  Even though we have had a record 22 days over 100, mine is only on its first frond. 

[Will]

21 hours ago, Is that alive said:

Mine has been painstakingly slow.  Very long cool spring and then too much shade from passion fruit.  Even though we have had a record 22 days over 100, mine is only on its first frond. 

I would remove all the ground cover, remove some passionfruit and put some stones next to it to add some heat

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

Yes Sabals love heat. Using Black colored mulch can help. As Will said remove root competition and let the sun shine on the mulch. And yes black rock is better than black wood mulch for heat retention and transfer of that heat. 

[sonoranfans]

On 8/28/2022 at 5:24 AM, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Your weather is like cheating for the rest of us haha Basically year a round growing season 😃 I haven't seen a Sabal in Maui yet but I can imagine they would be rockets, especially Causiarum

T J 

Actually 3/4 of the growth I get each year is in 4 months june through september when it rains a lot and is humid and hot.  Length of growing season probably involved but it seems those other 6 months(10 month growing season) are not so productive and nothing happens for 2 months when overnight lows hit as low as 30F.  I think the whole "sabals are slow without heat" argument was discussed in detail years ago.  Coastal socal not fast, inland socal is notably faster yet same growing season.   As I recall out west lots of palmtalkers used to mark the spears for growth rate and that is where this sabals are slow without heat came from.  In the hot part of the year they spears rise faster.  There is a reason for this as metabolic activity of beneficial bacteria which assists in nutrient uptake (as measured by CO2 evolution) is about 100x faster at 90F than at 65F.  If your soil is cool, it slows things down.  This varies by species of course, some are better in cool weather like parajubaeas. jubaeas, butias, definitely don't like too much of heat, but look at thier native habitats to see why.  My Butia x Jubaea is a very good grower in cool weather, better than int he heat for sure.  Sabal causiarum originates from the dominican republic which is a few degrees hotter than maui so yeah it will grow even better there.   Lows average above 70 F april through november in Dominican republic while maui has average lows of 70 or higher in june through october.

[Gator]

My sabal is getting plenty of heat... but its only pushed 2 fronds this summer.

Is that normal or is it still getting itself established.

I planted it Spring of 2021

 

[Allen]

33 minutes ago, Gator said:

My sabal is getting plenty of heat... but its only pushed 2 fronds this summer.

Is that normal or is it still getting itself established.

I planted it Spring of 2021

 

What kind?  Many avg 3/year before trunking.  Lots of water might help.  

Edited August 29, 2022 by Allen

[GregVirginia7]

On 8/28/2022 at 8:07 AM, sonoranfans said:

depends on how fast 7you want them to grow, heat is much better for speed.  here is 9 years from one the size of yours

That’s incredible…and that’s a Brazoria? The ones I’ve seen in pictures have really ragged trunks…that’s a beautiful palm…

[sonoranfans]

2 hours ago, Gator said:

My sabal is getting plenty of heat... but its only pushed 2 fronds this summer.

Is that normal or is it still getting itself established.

I planted it Spring of 2021

 

sabals take a few years to grow a huge underground root system then the above ground growth kicks in.  Mine sat there for a couple years then became the fastest palm in my yard. Again mine is sabal causiarum a palm known to grow fast in the right conditions.  Some sabals like palmetto are quite slow.

[Will]

2 hours ago, Gator said:

My sabal is getting plenty of heat... but its only pushed 2 fronds this summer.

Is that normal or is it still getting itself established.

I planted it Spring of 2021

 

Probably still getting established. Planted a Minor this year and it also only pushed 1 leave. Hoping for another one but its getting cooler already..

[sonoranfans]

7 minutes ago, GregVirginia7 said:

That’s incredible…and that’s a Brazoria? The ones I’ve seen in pictures have really ragged trunks…that’s a beautiful palm…

sabal causiarum is the species, the trunk is a fattie unlike any sabal except domingensis which can also have a fat trunk.  Here is the trunk today, adirondack chair for scale.  

[Jubaea_James760]

I think the problem out west, atleast in California is that majority of people don't want to grow Sabals. So there's few examples of the speed of growth here. Sure they're alot faster in certain parts of the US but Sabals don't get the love they deserve in California lol. Why grow a Sabal in a zone 10b, 10a or 9b? To some people it makes no sense. Plus the big ones take up alot of room. I think we're going to see more examples of Sabals out west though, especially Inland. Places where there's more space to put them in yards. 

I've seen a few big ones here on palmtalk in CA but I imagine there has to be some fast ones in San Bernadino, Riverside, Moreno Valley, Ontario, Temecula, Lake Elsinore, Corona, Hemet, SGV, Central CA etc...

P.S. anyone from Bakersfield that has some or knows of some please post. I'm always fascinated with the heat of Bakersfield! Has to be one of the hottest city's Inland on average!( minus low desert region)

[Manalto]

12 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

sabal causiarum is the species, the trunk is a fattie unlike any sabal except domingensis which can also have a fat trunk.  Here is the trunk today, adirondack chair for scale.  

I can't wait! I planted a Sabal causiarum 2 years ago (mail order from Texas Cold Hardy, so dinky upon arrival) and it is just getting going and starting to distinguish itself from the Sabal minors surrounding it. That's a striking specimen. Beautiful!

Please, just "chair." Here's an Adirondack chair:

Edited August 30, 2022 by Manalto

[sonoranfans]

7 hours ago, Manalto said:

I can't wait! I planted a Sabal causiarum 2 years ago (mail order from Texas Cold Hardy, so dinky upon arrival) and it is just getting going and starting to distinguish itself from the Sabal minors surrounding it. That's a striking specimen. Beautiful!

Please, just "chair." Here's an Adirondack chair:

yeah I know, I have two golden teak adirondack chairs complete with foot stools, not the same thing, I should have said "adirondack style".  The plastic ones are for the kids or for moving around the yard for temporary sitting spots.  The teak ones are kind of heavy to drag around.

[Manalto]

On 8/30/2022 at 11:31 AM, sonoranfans said:

...I have two golden teak adirondack chairs complete with foot stools...

Oooo, they're comfortable with the footstool (and compulsory chilled beverage) - very nice. 

[ShadyDan]

Two days worth of growth on my Sabal palmetto. Still cruising along pretty good considering it’s October 10th at 49 degrees North. We are having an extended summer up here, with temperatures around 20-25C during the day and 10C at night. Certainly not normal for these parts, but the palms seem to like it. No meaningful rain still since mid July and we are officially in a serious drought across the South Island so I am looking forward to the rain, if it ever comes. 
 

 

Happy Thanksgiving to all the other Canadians out there!

Oh, and @Manalto and @sonoranfans, I believe the correct term for those chairs is “Muskoka Chairs”. At least that’s what we call them up here! 

[Chester B]

2 hours ago, ShadyDan said:

Oh, and @Manalto and @sonoranfans, I believe the correct term for those chairs is “Muskoka Chairs”. At least that’s what we call them up here! 

Yep, that is the truth.  Named after the Muskoka region of Ontario with the lake chain of the same name.

@ShadyDanAt the moment long term forecasts see my temperature plunging and rain returning on the 21st, so I imagine you'll be getting the same around that time.  We've continued to be in the mid 80s (30C) and still have more on the way, but after the 21st down to 60F (15C).  I'm going to miss this weather.

I've been surprised by this Sabal rosei I planted early May.  It's working on its 4th frond and they have been getting bigger as time goes on.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Chester B

[Subtropical LIS]

 

I have a sabal palmetto and several (smaller) sabal minor scattered around my coastal landscape here on Long island Sound on the CT coast.  I was told years ago in the deep south that sabals grow fast with a hot and humid weather (typical of the subtropical deep south).  So I used a little trick that seems to help my palms:

I have a fence in my back yard, I plant my palms (pot and all) into a stone bed facing the direct southerly sun. I painted the fence black, have dark paving stones (crushed) in this bed. I have logged temps of 110 F.  Of course I water well. I leave the palms in these beds for two years. It seems the growth with the added heat makes the palms grow very fast.  Then when I transplant them to their permanent spot in my landscape, them seem to already be in a fast-growing state.  It so far has worked with my sabal and needle palms.  Just my observations. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Subtropical LIS

[southpacific73]

Here is my Sabal Riverside in Burnaby, BC (Greater Vancouver ) zone 8b. Growing its third frond and loving the unbelievably extended dry warm days of October. Planted it in July of this year. The big rocks and fertilizer seem to be helping it  speed up. Will plant my Brazoria next year with Causarium  in 2024 fingers crossed. Same as Shady Dan we are in level 5 drought conditions in the Greater Vancouver area unfortunately.

[Manalto]

13 hours ago, ShadyDan said:

 

Oh, and @Manalto and @sonoranfans, I believe the correct term for those chairs is “Muskoka Chairs”. At least that’s what we call them up here! 

Come for the palms; stay for the esoteric terminology.

You are correct. Doing a little poking around, I've learned that Muskoka chairs have a curved back and Adirondack chairs have a flat back. There is also a slight difference in size, apparently. Imagine! I could have gone my whole life without knowing this stuff!

[Sabal King]

Sabals absolutely love heat, but more importantly, a copius amount of water.  I've recently discovered that we have an underground river running through our property (we live on a big hill and the rest of the property slopes) and when you get about 1-2' down, it's blue\grey clay which is wet, 24x7... we are in the midst of a huge drought but if you drop in the shovel, get through the top layer, and get to clay, it's sopping wet.  Guess what?  Our sabals (250+ in total) are blowing up in terms of growth.  Sabal Louisiana doubling this year working on an eight spear, a Riverside which I got as a 15G has put on eight fronds, working on two more spears coming out now, 15G Sabal Mexicana on it's fifth spear of the year and even my birminghams are doing quite well with their fourth fronds of the year.  I could go on, but the sabals that I have located behind our year old large retaining wall, backfilled with yards of new topsoil (non clay) aren't growing nearly as quickly.  I have been having to manually water them, and it's not even close with about half of the growth.

For me, and for our soil here in NTX, once they penetrate to that deep wet layer of soil they take off... it's like having a broken irrigation nearby, but naturally!

[ShadyDan]

@Chester BThere is currently a 40% chance of precip on the 21st, but lots could happen between now and then. Nothing but pure sunshine and high teens / low 20s forecasted until then. Seems the rosei never heard of transplant shock and is cruising along just nicely. Not one you commonly hear about (even as Sabals go) this far north. Hopefully it does well over winter for you.

 @Subtropical LISI am lucky that I have a greenhouse, so I have a much extended growing season for anything still growing in a pot. Outside though, it would be next to impossible to mimic the hot/humid conditions they are used to. We wither get one condition or the other, not both. When its hot here, it usually bone dry with humidity as low as 20%. Of course, I can water well during our heatwaves if necessary.

 @southpacific73nice looking forward to see how your Sabals do for you. You probably get a little more heat than me being in the city, so you might get faster growth. My Sabals laughed at the brutal winter we had last year, so they should be a good choice for you too!

 @Manaltoif you can learn something new everyday, you are doing something right! My wife calls them Wisconsin chairs... I don't even know where that comes from but it drives me nuts!

 @tlowsounds like you have the perfect conditions! I essentially live on a rock with a thin amount of topsoil over top, so watering is a must for me for my Sabals. We are currently in a drought and watering ban and my stored rain barrel water is running low, so I hope we get some rain soon!
 

[Sabal King]

5 hours ago, ShadyDan said:

@Chester BThere is currently a 40% chance of precip on the 21st, but lots could happen between now and then. Nothing but pure sunshine and high teens / low 20s forecasted until then. Seems the rosei never heard of transplant shock and is cruising along just nicely. Not one you commonly hear about (even as Sabals go) this far north. Hopefully it does well over winter for you.

 @Subtropical LISI am lucky that I have a greenhouse, so I have a much extended growing season for anything still growing in a pot. Outside though, it would be next to impossible to mimic the hot/humid conditions they are used to. We wither get one condition or the other, not both. When its hot here, it usually bone dry with humidity as low as 20%. Of course, I can water well during our heatwaves if necessary.

 @southpacific73nice looking forward to see how your Sabals do for you. You probably get a little more heat than me being in the city, so you might get faster growth. My Sabals laughed at the brutal winter we had last year, so they should be a good choice for you too!

 @Manaltoif you can learn something new everyday, you are doing something right! My wife calls them Wisconsin chairs... I don't even know where that comes from but it drives me nuts!

 @tlowsounds like you have the perfect conditions! I essentially live on a rock with a thin amount of topsoil over top, so watering is a must for me for my Sabals. We are currently in a drought and watering ban and my stored rain barrel water is running low, so I hope we get some rain soon!
 

We have been and are going through a second drought, a hell of a drought, and it surprises me how much they have grown, but recently addressed some drainage issues in the backyard with french drains in certain spots and the amount of perpetually flowing water at 3-4' down was shocking.  Great for sabals though.