Needle Palm Northernmost Range in Midwest

[jaredthesir]

Hello! This is my first ever post to Palmtalk after lurking for quite a while.

I know that Needles can take some insanely low temperatures, and there are many healthy specimens growing in places like Cincinnati. I was curious as to just how far north they have been grown in the midwest. I am in southeastern Michigan (6a/b) and I think it could be a fun experiment to see if I could get one to last through at least a few winters. I realize that this is probably impossible/insane but after seeing the frigid temperatures endured in a lot of the upper south this month, it does not seem as impossible as it once did. My summers are probably more than adequate for palm growth, but my biggest concern would be the lack of mild days in winter. My lows are not too bad, the lowest it normally gets is around zero, but that is not too common. It maybe happens a few times per winter at most.

How do Needles fare in very cold winters which lack nice days but in which temps do not fall to their limit?

And how far north can you find healthy specimens??

[Geoff58]

I am interested in seeing the answer, too, having grown up in Hillsdale. But Hillsdale is Zone 5b, and some years, 5a. 

[maskedmole]

Yes you can go ahead and give it a try and with a little effort, I think you'll be successful. I am only about a zone warmer at 7a and have been quite successful with growing needle palms. Needle palms are insanely tough. I left one of my small strapling needle palms completely unprotected the other day when it dipped down to about 12 degrees and it was completely unharmed like it didn't even notice. But you know what other palm is incredibly tough? The sabal minor. I planted quite a few tiny seedling sabal minors in my woods just not long ago in the middle of winter and they are all completely unfazed by the cold we have had and it have had some cold spells. We have been down to about 7 degrees since then and several dips down to the teens and much snow and I would say ice too. I would argue that sabal minor is much tougher when younger than a young needle palm. I would absolutely plant in a sheltered area though away from strong cold winds and try to also find a sunny spot so it can store that summer heat and grow big.  Also, hardiness zones are helpful but only tell half the story. Palms don't like when it stays cold too long even if it is above their cold tolerance. I'm not sure how long a needle palm can go below freezing but it probably wouldn't like it if it stayed below freezing for more than a week or 2. So I would protect it in either extended cold spells or when the temperature dips below about 15 degrees just to be on the safe side. Well, actually, during the first few years just try to protect it if it goes below 20 degrees as they are less cold hardy when not established. You can throw blankets and something like a trash can or tote on top to keep out moisture or be more elaborate like other palms growers do with their protection. I just use blankets and totes mostly. Then after the cold spells ends and it returns to normal weather a good 45 degree day with the sun out and my palm seems to like it. I try not to leave the protection on too long because it seems my palms don't like it for too long and my palms seem to like the sunshine and mild weather after a cold spell. But yes, hardiness zones only tell you the lowest temperature per year. I've noticed some areas may have a higher zone rating than me but they may have lower average highs or more snowfall and to me I would rather deal with just a few colder nights than many days of extended cold to deal with.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by maskedmole

[jaredthesir]

8 hours ago, maskedmole said:

Yes you can go ahead and give it a try and with a little effort, I think you'll be successful. I am only about a zone warmer at 7a and have been quite successful with growing needle palms. Needle palms are insanely tough. I left one of my small strapling needle palms completely unprotected the other day when it dipped down to about 12 degrees and it was completely unharmed like it didn't even notice. But you know what other palm is incredibly tough? The sabal minor. I planted quite a few tiny seedling sabal minors in my woods just not long ago in the middle of winter and they are all completely unfazed by the cold we have had and it have had some cold spells. We have been down to about 7 degrees since then and several dips down to the teens and much snow and I would say ice too. I would argue that sabal minor is much tougher when younger than a young needle palm. I would absolutely plant in a sheltered area though away from strong cold winds and try to also find a sunny spot so it can store that summer heat and grow big.  Also, hardiness zones are helpful but only tell half the story. Palms don't like when it stays cold too long even if it is above their cold tolerance. I'm not sure how long a needle palm can go below freezing but it probably wouldn't like it if it stayed below freezing for more than a week or 2. So I would protect it in either extended cold spells or when the temperature dips below about 15 degrees just to be on the safe side. Well, actually, during the first few years just try to protect it if it goes below 20 degrees as they are less cold hardy when not established. You can throw blankets and something like a trash can or tote on top to keep out moisture or be more elaborate like other palms growers do with their protection. I just use blankets and totes mostly. Then after the cold spells ends and it returns to normal weather a good 45 degree day with the sun out and my palm seems to like it. I try not to leave the protection on too long because it seems my palms don't like it for too long and my palms seem to like the sunshine and mild weather after a cold spell. But yes, hardiness zones only tell you the lowest temperature per year. I've noticed some areas may have a higher zone rating than me but they may have lower average highs or more snowfall and to me I would rather deal with just a few colder nights than many days of extended cold to deal with.

 

 

Thank you for the reply. There are many winters, including this one, where I might go weeks below 32, and so I would consider myself a very cold z6. I think I would have a much easier time if I was zone 6 in the Ohio valley or out west. I see you recommended sabal minor. I’d actually rather plant that than a needle for several reasons however I was under the assumption needles are hardier?

Edited January 30, 2022 by jaredthesir

[Allen]

16 minutes ago, jaredthesir said:

Thank you for the reply. There are many winters, including this one, where I might go weeks below 32, and so I would consider myself a very cold z6. I think I would have a much easier time if I was zone 6 in the Ohio valley or out west. I see you recommended sabal minor. I’d actually rather plant that than a needle for several reasons however I was under the assumption needles are hardier?

You can plant some medium size tougher minors near the house on south side and probably get away with it.

[kinzyjr]

@Keith in SoJax Posted a photo of this Needle Palm in Smithton, IL:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/56135-palm-trees-are-moving-north/&tab=comments#comment-841873

[teddytn]

2 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

@Keith in SoJax Posted a photo of this Needle Palm in Smithton, IL:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/56135-palm-trees-are-moving-north/&tab=comments#comment-841873

That’s perfect. Did the palm survive yes, can it get beat up like that every year…maybe, but not likely. Seems like it would go into a leaf deficit where it loses more than it can grow back every year. 

[kinzyjr]

17 minutes ago, teddytn said:

That’s perfect. Did the palm survive yes, can it get beat up like that every year…maybe, but not likely. Seems like it would go into a leaf deficit where it loses more than it can grow back every year. 

Last I heard, this palm is still alive and actually thriving.  They take 2-3 years to really get their feet under them, and then they don't show as much damage.

[teddytn]

53 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Last I heard, this palm is still alive and actually thriving.  They take 2-3 years to really get their feet under them, and then they don't show as much damage.

Wow that’s good news! There definitely is a northern cutoff even for a needle palm though lol. Amazing, it takes negative temps  potentially every year then….

[jaredthesir]

3 hours ago, teddytn said:

Wow that’s good news! There definitely is a northern cutoff even for a needle palm though lol. Amazing, it takes negative temps  potentially every year then….

That’s what I’m thinking. I don’t think they would survive in other areas of Illinois, like Chicago, or here (MI). At least in St. Louis they have longer mild stretches in the winter. And by “mild” I mean highs of 35 instead of 25

Edited January 31, 2022 by jaredthesir

[maskedmole]

12 hours ago, jaredthesir said:

Thank you for the reply. There are many winters, including this one, where I might go weeks below 32, and so I would consider myself a very cold z6. I think I would have a much easier time if I was zone 6 in the Ohio valley or out west. I see you recommended sabal minor. I’d actually rather plant that than a needle for several reasons however I was under the assumption needles are hardier?

No problem, welcome to the forum. Needles are probably hardier but only once fully established meaning in the ground for at least a few years and may gain hardiness as they get bigger as well. I think newly planted sabal minor are hardier than newly planted needle palms though. There was a needle palm that survived something like negative 20 degrees in Knoxville, TN but it was I believe a pretty big mature specimen and the cold event probably didn't last too long. That may be why needle palm is toted as the hardiest palm and I'd say it is in that respect. Find a sheltered area and I would plant both and see which one does better. They may get better at surviving the cold as they get bigger. They are easy palms to protect as they don't get too tall and remain somewhat bushy. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by maskedmole

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

As i haven't been active on Palmtalk in a while, I can confirm the Needle Palm in Smithton is just fine.  This was Nov 7, 2021.  I would definitely say it's hardy in all of zone 7, in the Eastern US (hot summers)  as well as marginal in zone 6b.  At -15, it lost most of it's green foliage, but it did recover.  Smithton is zone 6b, but being a continental climate, it has about as many 7a winters as 6b.  Once or twice a decade, the lows will be in the zone 5 category.  Having been familiar with this climate my whole life, I can say, there has never been a zone 8 winter in my lifetime...nearly 60 years.  This plant has never had any supplemental protection, though the morning it was -15, it had a heavy snowfall to help protect it from the harshest winds.  Note that I edited this image to add the Jan 2022 temp graph for Smithton IL that is provided by Accuweather & the plant under the heavy snow of Jan 7, 2014 when the low was -15..  The bottom photo was Jan 7, 2014 and the temp at the time the photo was taken was -10F.  Lows that morning were -15 +/- all across the region just south of St Louis.  The snowfall was around 12" deep and it allowed the temperature to fall lower than the rest of the region which received lower snowfall totals.  

[Manalto]

I quickly read through the above comments so I may have missed mention of it but it's my understanding that it is of great importance in regions with cold winters that needle palms are provided good drainage.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

This planting site is moist with morning sun filtered through deciduous trees.  It isn’t wet, and it isn’t irrigated.  

[Jimhardy]

I think the cold hardy southeast palms like Sabal and Needle palms are

one of the few exceptions that are actually fine in wetter winter weather

unlike Trachys etc that although they enjoy ample moisture are more

cold hardy if they are drier.....I think in the studies that John in Colorado did

the soil moisture wasn't as big a deal for the above mentioned southeast palms.

[jaredthesir]

On 2/11/2022 at 3:33 PM, Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax) said:

As i haven't been active on Palmtalk in a while, I can confirm the Needle Palm in Smithton is just fine.  This was Nov 7, 2021.  I would definitely say it's hardy in all of zone 7, in the Eastern US (hot summers)  as well as marginal in zone 6b.  At -15, it lost most of it's green foliage, but it did recover.  Smithton is zone 6b, but being a continental climate, it has about as many 7a winters as 6b.  Once or twice a decade, the lows will be in the zone 5 category.  Having been familiar with this climate my whole life, I can say, there has never been a zone 8 winter in my lifetime...nearly 60 years.  This plant has never had any supplemental protection, though the morning it was -15, it had a heavy snowfall to help protect it from the harshest winds.  Note that I edited this image to add the Jan 2022 temp graph for Smithton IL that is provided by Accuweather & the plant under the heavy snow of Jan 7, 2014 when the low was -15..  The bottom photo was Jan 7, 2014 and the temp at the time the photo was taken was -10F.  Lows that morning were -15 +/- all across the region just south of St Louis.  The snowfall was around 12" deep and it allowed the temperature to fall lower than the rest of the region which received lower snowfall totals.  

Wow! -15f is crazy low. I can’t remember ever getting that low here in my town. 
 

You say that you are very familiar with the climate where this palm is grown. How common are mild winter days there? Are highs in the 40s and 50s somewhat common there in January? Here in Michigan highs over 40 in Jan are considered unseasonably warm, so that is what I would be most worried about in regards to planting one here. No break from the cold.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

41 minutes ago, jaredthesir said:

Wow! -15f is crazy low. I can’t remember ever getting that low here in my town. 
 

You say that you are very familiar with the climate where this palm is grown. How common are mild winter days there? Are highs in the 40s and 50s somewhat common there in January? Here in Michigan highs over 40 in Jan are considered unseasonably warm, so that is what I would be most worried about in regards to planting one here. No break from the cold.

Yes, St Louis has many days in the 40’s in winter.  In fact, 50’s and 60’s occur between cold snaps. If you look at record highs, many winter days have records above 70! Often those record highs precede harsh cold which is really hard on plants.  I grew up there and considered meteorology as a career.  
 

you’re right about the extended cold. I expect that would be hard on it.  But, that plant did endure nearly 30 days below freezing one winter.  We all wondered if that kill it, but it didn’t. The absolute lows weren’t extremely low during that period though.  

[Brandon James]

On 2/12/2022 at 5:44 PM, jaredthesir said:

Wow! -15f is crazy low. I can’t remember ever getting that low here in my town. 
 

You say that you are very familiar with the climate where this palm is grown. How common are mild winter days there? Are highs in the 40s and 50s somewhat common there in January? Here in Michigan highs over 40 in Jan are considered unseasonably warm, so that is what I would be most worried about in regards to planting one here. No break from the cold.

 

On 2/11/2022 at 3:33 PM, Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax) said:

As i haven't been active on Palmtalk in a while, I can confirm the Needle Palm in Smithton is just fine.  This was Nov 7, 2021.  I would definitely say it's hardy in all of zone 7, in the Eastern US (hot summers)  as well as marginal in zone 6b.  At -15, it lost most of it's green foliage, but it did recover.  Smithton is zone 6b, but being a continental climate, it has about as many 7a winters as 6b.  Once or twice a decade, the lows will be in the zone 5 category.  Having been familiar with this climate my whole life, I can say, there has never been a zone 8 winter in my lifetime...nearly 60 years.  This plant has never had any supplemental protection, though the morning it was -15, it had a heavy snowfall to help protect it from the harshest winds.  Note that I edited this image to add the Jan 2022 temp graph for Smithton IL that is provided by Accuweather & the plant under the heavy snow of Jan 7, 2014 when the low was -15..  The bottom photo was Jan 7, 2014 and the temp at the time the photo was taken was -10F.  Lows that morning were -15 +/- all across the region just south of St Louis.  The snowfall was around 12" deep and it allowed the temperature to fall lower than the rest of the region which received lower snowfall totals.  

Your Needle looks great. So far other than wind damage the needles and sabals are doing well. being here on the coast of maine I’m zone 6b. But we have weeks we stay around or below freezing for highs. There’s some yuccas too both Adam and rostrata with a blue whales tounge agave that’s survived -6 so far (temperate sensor is in the middle of the yard away from the house) I keep the Trachy undercover to shelter from northwesterly winds.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

7 hours ago, Brandon James said:

 

Your Needle looks great. So far other than wind damage the needles and sabals are doing well. being here on the coast of maine I’m zone 6b. But we have weeks we stay around or below freezing for highs. There’s some yuccas too both Adam and rostrata with a blue whales tounge agave that’s survived -6 so far (temperate sensor is in the middle of the yard away from the house) I keep the Trachy undercover to shelter from northwesterly winds.

You definitely have some species pushing the zone limits.  Good luck!  The differences between Zone 6b St Louis and Zone 6B Maine don't have much in common beyond the average winter low.  In St Louis the birches and spruces in the background of your photos...live very short lives.  Summers are much, much hotter and drier than their native range.  In addition, the soils are completely different too, and I think that matters as well.  Your Trachycarpus looks great, the others are probably going to show some damage by May/june, but I hope you are satisfied with the outcome.

[SeanK]

The Smithton, Illinois needle palm looks pretty good. No doubt assisted by the sheltering of the house and the heat transfer from the foundation.

As palms don't grow where the ground freezes solid (herbaceous), a similar plant positioned 10 feet away would likely not survive.

I have many S.Minor and R.hystrix growing on my ATL property. Needles generally don't like heavy wet soils in the winter time and I have lost 20% of mine over the years. S.minor is pretty much indestructible above 0ºF. The story of the Knoxville Needle is legendary and has been repeated numerous times over the past 25 years. It may be an outlier.

[Leelanau Palms]

On 2/11/2022 at 3:33 PM, Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax) said:

As i haven't been active on Palmtalk in a while, I can confirm the Needle Palm in Smithton is just fine.  This was Nov 7, 2021.  I would definitely say it's hardy in all of zone 7, in the Eastern US (hot summers)  as well as marginal in zone 6b.  At -15, it lost most of it's green foliage, but it did recover.  Smithton is zone 6b, but being a continental climate, it has about as many 7a winters as 6b.  Once or twice a decade, the lows will be in the zone 5 category.  Having been familiar with this climate my whole life, I can say, there has never been a zone 8 winter in my lifetime...nearly 60 years.  This plant has never had any supplemental protection, though the morning it was -15, it had a heavy snowfall to help protect it from the harshest winds.  Note that I edited this image to add the Jan 2022 temp graph for Smithton IL that is provided by Accuweather & the plant under the heavy snow of Jan 7, 2014 when the low was -15..  The bottom photo was Jan 7, 2014 and the temp at the time the photo was taken was -10F.  Lows that morning were -15 +/- all across the region just south of St Louis.  The snowfall was around 12" deep and it allowed the temperature to fall lower than the rest of the region which received lower snowfall totals.  

Anyone with updates on the Smithton, Illionois needle palm?