Atlantic City, NJ palm potential

[MonkeDonkezz]

Is this info accurate? 

[Allen]

10 minutes ago, MonkeDonkezz said:

Is this info accurate? 

What are you asking?  Is the graph accurate.  Looks like the beach is 8a and Atlantic city is 7a so they can support only a few varieties of the toughest palms.  

[oasis371]

The Atlantic City area is Zone 7b.

[EJPalm05]

2 minutes ago, oasis371 said:

The Atlantic City area is Zone 7b.

Map is from 2012

[Allen]

11 minutes ago, EJ NJ said:

Map is from 2012

So if you don't have 8a like i thought from my post above,  in 7b you can grow some Trachycarpus and maybe Palmetto for trunking palms but they may need protection. the other hardier sabal crosses like I have in my signature all work except the Butia and mule which will die unprotected.  

Edited January 29, 2022 by Allen

[teddytn]

Atlantic City, NJ palm potential is needle palm and Sabal minor. 

[Allen]

Some places in Atlantic city plant palms annually or 'rent' them and have them dug up in fall.

https://www.ctpalmtrees.com/palm-tree-inventory

 

[PalmatierMeg]

The current nor'easter tells you lots about zones in the NE and Mid-Atlantic. Refer to @teddytn's entry.

[UK_Palms]

I can't believe the high was only -8C / 17F in Newark, NJ today and only -7C / 19F in NYC too with a low of -12C / 10F forecast tonight. That is getting into Trachycarpus killing territory for that region. How much UHI does NYC actually get? It's a huge city with a population similar to London so you wold expect about 5C / 10F in UHI protection for the city centre. You would think the colossal UHI would keep NYC a bit warmer than it does. Any idea how much protection is provided, like in degrees celsius or fahrenheit? Heavy snow is coming down as well I see. 

 

Question - would Trachycarpus Fortunei survive in central Park, NYC...? Are there any planted out there? Or any Sabal Minors?

Edited January 29, 2022 by UK_Palms

[oasis371]

 "You would think the colossal UHI would keep NYC a bit warmer than it does. Any idea how much protection is provided, like in degrees celsius or fahrenheit?"

LOL, I think the NYC/NJ Greater Metro Area UHI kicks in from from June to September when it's 140 F. in the shade and any palms that do manage to survive the cold are toasted. Your climate is extremely temperate compared to most of North America, even S. Florida going down to the mid 30's tonight, and it's over 1,700 miles south of you!

P.S., I will post of pic of my Trachycarpus fortunei once the current winter from he// is over!

Edited January 30, 2022 by oasis371

[Teegurr]

5 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I can't believe the high was only -8C / 17F in Newark, NJ today and only -7C / 19F in NYC too with a low of -12C / 10F forecast tonight. That is getting into Trachycarpus killing territory for that region. How much UHI does NYC actually get? It's a huge city with a population similar to London so you wold expect about 5C / 10F in UHI protection for the city centre. You would think the colossal UHI would keep NYC a bit warmer than it does. Any idea how much protection is provided, like in degrees celsius or fahrenheit? Heavy snow is coming down as well I see. 

 

Question - would Trachycarpus Fortunei survive in central Park, NYC...? Are there any planted out there? Or any Sabal Minors?

10F low isn't that crazy for NYC since it's a 7b zone. Most UHI in winter is when you get closer to the ocean, not really a whole lot due to the city itself. Still a 7b zone in Central Park, so Trachycarpus would need protection every so often. There are some sabal minors in tompkins square park. There's a trachycarpus in the lower east side. 

 

[D Palm]

If it does not get above freezing for days, that’s a death sentence for almost every palm. Sorry.

[Aceraceae]

Lower Brooklyn should be warmer than Central Park, both LaGuardia and JFK put up some impressive weather charts. Going farther southeast, the UHI drops off fast even by Long Beach, the next town over, it's sometimes colder, except when it's not, and that's when it's a cloudy sea breeze day where the ocean helps more than the city. Going further east, Long Island is complicated whether it's milder than NYC or not, it angles to the north, and the sound gets narrow. Toward the end it's still zone 7, cooler summer oceanic Cfb instead of Cfa or Dfa. 

Going a little farther out Nantucket should be able to grow windmill palms. It's a real oceanic zone 8. 

[oasis371]

One factor that has not been considered in any of preceding posts is soil type.  As I understand it, sandy soils allow for greater radiational cooling compared to other soil types (clay, etc.).  You can see this in South Jersey in the Pine Barrens where temps can drop like a rock compared to areas much further north in the state.  I believe you see this too with areas of Long Island and it's sandy soil, but of course, ocean does mitigate this drop off. I would say, the mildest zones in NJ are in the immediate NYC suburbs (due to urban heat island) and Atlantic, coastal South NJ, AC included. For NY, the mildest zones area also in and around NYC.,  also in coastal Long Island,  but of course, much cooler summers out east as noted by Aceraceae (which should make it ideal for Trachycarpus). 

[SeanK]

Coastal NJ is largely z7a.

Most folks guess wrong on climate out of desire. In the tropics, temps rarely drop below 60°(15C) except at altitude. 50°(10C) is the minimum. A yearly low 0°C to 10° C is subtropical. A yearly low of -5°C is warm temperate.

[oasis371]

Temperate climates are anything but temperate..., at both ends of the spectrum.

Edited February 14, 2022 by oasis371

[EJPalm05]

People have grown washingtonia in Virginia beach so I could try it here because Virginia beach isn't that different a climate than Newark! Also the longest I have recorded below freezing this winter is 3 days!

[EJPalm05]

On 1/29/2022 at 10:50 AM, teddytn said:

Atlantic City, NJ palm potential is needle palm and Sabal minor. 

Oh come on you can grow more than that!

[UK_Palms]

19 minutes ago, EJ NJ said:

People have grown washingtonia in Virginia beach so I could try it here because Virginia beach isn't that different a climate than Newark! Also the longest I have recorded below freezing this winter is 3 days!

What’s your lowest temperature this winter so far? Washingtonia aren’t even fully hardy in my location, except maybe decent sized Filifera, which are largely untested here anyway. My lowest this winter was a freak 20F in January when we had clear skies all night and 16 hours of radiation cooling. Central London didn’t go below 30-32F that night.

I’ve just looked and the record low for Newark is -26F. Anything below +15F and I think most Washingtonia will kick the bucket where you are. It’s the same for Washingtonia in my location too, although we obviously don’t get as cold in winter. I know that Will guy in NC protects his each winter and he is quite a bit further south than you are. Even with decent winter protection it’s a big ask in NJ. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by UK_Palms

[oasis371]

"I’ve just looked and the record low for Newark is -26F."

The coldest I saw from my research was -8 F. in Newark in 1985, but I suspect one would encounter colder temps in the Pleistocene. Then too, there is a Newark, South Dakota.

Newark, according to the current,  USDA gardening zone is a reliable zone is 7a.  

My own minimum was 7.0 F.  this year. Yes, too cold for Washingtonia, which is why mine are containerized.

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by oasis371

[UK_Palms]

35 minutes ago, oasis371 said:

"I’ve just looked and the record low for Newark is -26F."

The coldest I saw from my research was -8 F. in Newark in 1985, but I suspect one would encounter colder temps in the Pleistocene. Then too, there is a Newark, South Dakota.

Newark, according to the current,  USDA gardening zone is a reliable zone is 7a.  

My own minimum was 7.0 F.  this year. Yes, too cold for Washingtonia, which is why mine are containerized.

 

I was using Wikipedia as the source regarding the -26F low, but even just a low of 7F this winter is still pretty cold. That would be an all-time record low for me here, going back to the 1940’s. The oldest station in London, Greenwich Park, has an all-time record low of just 15F to put it into perspective.

How are the Trachycarpus Fortunei looking after the 7F low and the freeze in general that occurred a few weeks back? I see it went down to about 18F last night as well in Newark? Same forecast again tonight. We both have 3-4 months of temperatures that don’t reach 65F+ in our locations pretty much, but those lows you guys get are a real problem for you. No doubt microclimates will exist in built up places, especially close to the coast. 

[teddytn]

2 hours ago, EJ NJ said:

Oh come on you can grow more than that!

Yeah I can, but nobody in NJ is growing anything unprotected other than Sabal minor and needle palm for more than a year or 2. The zone doesn’t matter, the north east just isn’t good for growing palms unprotected. I would love to see proof of a trachy or even Sabal Birmingham or anything else that’s been growing anywhere in NJ unprotected for a few years. 

[oasis371]

"I was using Wikipedia as the source regarding the -26F low, but even just a low of 7F this winter is still pretty cold. That would be an all-time record low for me here, going back to the 1940’s. The oldest station in London, Greenwich Park, has an all-time record low of just 15F to put it into perspective."

UK_Palms,  I get it, Europe might as well be a different planet, extremely mild by North American standards (combination of Gulf Stream and that ocean to the west of you and the prevailing westerlies), which is why they can grow palms 1000's of miles north of here into Scandinavia.

"How are the Trachycarpus Fortunei looking after the 7F low and the freeze in general that occurred a few weeks back?"

 

This is the pic taken after the arctic low of 7.0 F.  Guess I should put my Sabal minors in the ground. I know that Sabals grow relatively slowly but I feel they tend to recent being containerized more so than most palms. 

These snow pics below are from yesterday's snowfall.

Edited February 14, 2022 by oasis371

[EJPalm05]

2 hours ago, teddytn said:

Yeah I can, but nobody in NJ is growing anything unprotected other than Sabal minor and needle palm for more than a year or 2. The zone doesn’t matter, the north east just isn’t good for growing palms unprotected. I would love to see proof of a trachy or even Sabal Birmingham or anything else that’s been growing anywhere in NJ unprotected for a few years. 

Nobody can demodivate me I will grow palms here whether anyone likes it or not and I will prove you wrong!

[UK_Palms]

@oasis371 Sorry, I was just trying to make the point that TeddyTN has also since reiterated above. Looking at the record lows, as well as the lows from this season, I just don't see how any palms will survive there without protection. The amount of precipitation, combined with the humidity and winter lows just adds to the issue.

By all means plant the Sabal Minors out. I suppose you have to try something and I obviously wish you luck with them, but you'll probably have to protect them most years if you want to keep them alive in the longer term. I've just checked and can see that Newark's high today is only 25F. What was the high on the coldest day during the arctic blast? 

[oasis371]

"Sorry..."

No need to apologize, I appreciate your input. I think what makes it frustrating here is that so much of the year is actually rather mild or absurdly HOT and HUMID.   But winters can definitely be palm killers here too..., even though they have been getting shorter and milder (by North American standards).  Heavy winter precipitation is definitely a factor, as is prolonged deep frost.  It's actually a very unique climate, it's complicated. I have a Chinese friend from North China who used to say, "Tell me the date, and I can give you the weather for Beijing."  That is definitely not true here, and in North America in general! I tend to prefer Trachys for my own area, now and into the future, but they have their limitations. This is essentially an Asiatic genus, but the cold winters in their native lands are DRY as the northwest monsoon blows out of Siberia.  So too, they tend NOT to prefer extreme high heat, and this urbanized area of the country can provide that just as generously as subarctic cold in its season. Anyone can grow palms in paradise, anyone.  I rather enjoy the challenge of growing palms outside, on this side of paradise lost,  but then again, I always plan for the long term, always.

Cheers, and Happy St. Valentine's Day to all!

Ricardo

P.S.,  "What was the high on the coldest day during the arctic blast?"

Just checked the records, the high that day was actually 37 F. before the temps crashed to the minimum of 7.0 F.

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by oasis371

[teddytn]

4 hours ago, EJ NJ said:

Nobody can demodivate me I will grow palms here whether anyone likes it or not and I will prove you wrong!

I am in no way trying to demotivate you. I hope more than anything you prove me wrong, honestly. I’m just speaking from lessons learned over a bunch of years of growing palms and watching what happens during cold weather and winter storms. You do have the proximity to the Atlantic to your advantage. And I’ve never lived in NJ. I did grow up in upstate New York and that might as well be Alaska for half the year. Anyway, just from my perspective I would suggest to plant as many needles and Sabal minors as you can get your hands on. Not sure of exact  quantity of different varieties of Sabal minors, but from Emerald Isle giant, mccurtain, talladega, savannah silver, all the varieties from Florida, including all the dwarfs (trying to track down seeds or seedlings of these currently) huge NC minors, huge TX minors. Just saying start there. Someone said it previously on here, but you could fill a yard with just minors. Then branch out to the next layer of hardiness of sabals - Birmingham, Louisiana, Brazoria, etonia, tamaulipas, Miamiensis. Trachycarpus somewhere in there for sure. Foundation plant, use and create microclimates. The most important being south and west facing exposures against the foundation. Mulch well in winter and sit back and see what survives. I always say I’m doing long term experiments. Pm me your address and I’ll send you this book if you’re interested. Definitely right up your alley. 

[oasis371]

I think my Butias, Queens, Washys, Cycads,  Meds, Chinese fans, Sabals, Dates, and containerized Trachys will be coming out sooner rather than later this year, as in later this week for the season.  I see a lot of 50's in the extended and after weeks and weeks of winter drought, they will be thrilled!

Once the tropics explode here, will be sure to post pics. 

P.S., I know what I be doing after 5 decades here.

Edited February 15, 2022 by oasis371

[RJ]

5 hours ago, oasis371 said:

"Sorry..."

No need to apologize, I appreciate your input. I think what makes it frustrating here is that so much of the year is actually rather mild or absurdly HOT and HUMID.   But winters can definitely be palm killers here too..., even though they have been getting shorter and milder (by North American standards).  Heavy winter precipitation is definitely a factor, as is prolonged deep frost.  It's actually a very unique climate, it's complicated. I have a Chinese friend from North China who used to say, "Tell me the date, and I can give you the weather for Beijing."  That is definitely not true here, and in North America in general! I tend to prefer Trachys for my own area, now and into the future, but they have their limitations. This is essentially an Asiatic genus, but the cold winters in their native lands are DRY as the northwest monsoon blows out of Siberia.  So too, they tend NOT to prefer extreme high heat, and this urbanized area of the country can provide that just as generously as subarctic cold in its season. Anyone can grow palms in paradise, anyone.  I rather enjoy the challenge of growing palms outside, on this side of paradise lost,  but then again, I always plan for the long term, always.

Cheers, and Happy St. Valentine's Day to all!

Ricardo

P.S.,  "What was the high on the coldest day during the arctic blast?"

Just checked the records, the high that day was actually 37 F. before the temps crashed to the minimum of 7.0 F.

 

Welcome to the world of a continental climate. Nothing to stop that arctic air drain from Canada. 

[oasis371]

"Welcome to the world of a continental climate. Nothing to stop that arctic air drain from Canada."
 

And I am afraid that there'll be an active and early severe storm season for many this year, that other side of arctic incursions.

 

[oasis371]

Speaking of continental climates, I am across this story on Accuweather for a rather historic day in mid February and thought I'd share.

https://www.accuweather.com/en/winter-weather/the-snow-king-blizzard-great-arctic-outbreak-of-1899/1140132

[SEVA]

On 2/14/2022 at 9:20 AM, EJ NJ said:

People have grown washingtonia in Virginia beach so I could try it here because Virginia beach isn't that different a climate than Newark! Also the longest I have recorded below freezing this winter is 3 days!

I must respectfully disagree; I don’t see how Newark’s climate is that close to that of Virginia Beach. I’ve seen Washingtonia spp. and even Phoenix spp. make it at least a few years in VB without protection, but VB is one of the warmest (if not the warmest) areas in the state. Even in VB those 2 palm genus aren’t guaranteed long-term. I zone-push less-hardy palms when I can, so I understand. I’ve certainly grown some palms (with protection) that others told me were impossible and I tried anyways. But it’s difficult to compare a coastal southern city with a northeastern city, especially given the distance between. It’s just difficult for me to think a city with scenery like the included image could be close in climate with that of Newark. Just don’t want you to be too disappointed if you’re expecting results close to that of VB.

[SeanK]

The folks in VB tell themselves, "We've seen Washingtonia in Myrtle Beach and we're not much cooler than Myrtle Beach"

I can tell you that the temp statistics between Atlanta (Jan low 34ºF) and Augusta (Jan low 35ºF) are very similar. However, you can find Butia capitata and W.filifera in Augusta growing for 20 years. W.robustas on Washington Rd defoliate alternate years and recover. The I85 corridor from ATL to CLT gets ice storms every 5 years that kill most of those same species here.

[RJ]

On 2/17/2022 at 11:39 AM, SeanK said:

The folks in VB tell themselves, "We've seen Washingtonia in Myrtle Beach and we're not much cooler than Myrtle Beach"

I can tell you that the temp statistics between Atlanta (Jan low 34ºF) and Augusta (Jan low 35ºF) are very similar. However, you can find Butia capitata and W.filifera in Augusta growing for 20 years. W.robustas on Washington Rd defoliate alternate years and recover. The I85 corridor from ATL to CLT gets ice storms every 5 years that kill most of those same species here.

Someone gets it