Zone Poll

[JLM]

Zone 8b here, 9a shall come soon.

And as always when it comes to these types of threads, theres always that completely unnecassary and unrelated political comment lol

[D Palm]

I am listed 8b and choose so in the poll. My last 8b winter was 2010.

[MarkbVet]

On 1/25/2022 at 3:44 PM, MonkeDonkezz said:

There is a poll

You left out zone 8a...which is mine lol, so i chose 8b.  

[Jimhardy]

19 hours ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Are those Tetrapanex trees on the left?

Zanzibar Castor bean plants.

[ZPalms]

I'm in 8A but 8B is the only option 

Edited January 27, 2022 by ZPalms

[WSimpson]

16 hours ago, Teegurr said:

Map is outdated. If 30 years says 12f is your avg annual minimum, then you are 8a.

I feel like within a 10 year period I will see about 3-4  7B temps(  2012-21 actual Lows  were ; 19F,20, 5, 4 ,15 , 7 , 8, , 14 ,19, 16F ) so if anyone were to plant all 8A plants they might not be all that successful . My less hardy plants are in great microclimates , so I have success with Butia and Chamaerops humilis in those spots ,  and I protect my  Washy if I see below 16F . 

[Las Palmas Norte]

The poll is showing quite a few of us in zone 8, and more specifically zone 8b. I call this the, close but no cigar zone. We can grow some palms successfully, but not enough to satisfy our enthusiasm. We end up zone pushing and using protection methods for palms, and if successful, will eventually out grow that and cross our fingers. That's what we do. 

[knikfar]

I'm in Raleigh, NC, zone7b. Its good to remember that zones only represent the average annual low temperature but doesn't consider cold duration or amounts of precipitation, frozen or otherwise. So my 7b isn't the same as a coastal New Jersey 7b or a New Mexico 7b. Washingtonias are long term survivors in a New Mexico 7b but they're a definite loss in my 7b. And even though some consider downtown DC to be a zone 8a, there are many plants I can grow in my yard that won't survive in that zone 8a climate. 

[knikfar]

4 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

The poll is showing quite a few of us in zone 8, and more specifically zone 8b. I call this the, close but no cigar zone. We can grow some palms successfully, but not enough to satisfy our enthusiasm. We end up zone pushing and using protection methods for palms, and if successful, will eventually out grow that and cross our fingers. That's what we do. 

Trying being in 7b. For us, anyone fully in zone 8 has a lot of options. 

[MonkeDonkezz]

Sorry to anyone in 8a, I can't edit it back to the poll

[DAVEinMB]

4 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

The poll is showing quite a few of us in zone 8, and more specifically zone 8b. I call this the, close but no cigar zone. We can grow some palms successfully, but not enough to satisfy our enthusiasm. We end up zone pushing and using protection methods for palms, and if successful, will eventually out grow that and cross our fingers. That's what we do. 

Hear, hear!

You can have fun.... but not too much fun lol

[teddytn]

Where’s that kid at from Saskatchewan? Gotta have somebody check the zone 3a box 

[amh]

8A here.

Warm 8A in the forest and cold 8A in the pasture.

[JLM]

4 hours ago, DAVEinMB said:

Hear, hear!

You can have fun.... but not too much fun lol

Exactly, you can pull off some 9a and maybe some 9b palms with plenty of protection, but you just cannot try a coconut lol

[Las Palmas Norte]

18 hours ago, teddytn said:

Where’s that kid at from Saskatchewan? Gotta have somebody check the zone 3a box 

Ya. I think those folks take great pride in those bitter winters.

[teddytn]

56 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Ya. I think those folks take great pride in those bitter winters.

They can keep it! Lol

[Allen]

16 hours ago, JLM said:

Exactly, you can pull off some 9a and maybe some 9b palms with plenty of protection, but you just cannot try a coconut lol

My general rule is you can pull off one zone above yours with minimal effort protecting but 2 zones out starts getting extreme and will most likely fail.

[Palmlex]

1 hour ago, Allen said:

My general rule is you can pull off one zone above yours with minimal effort protecting but 2 zones out starts getting extreme and will most likely fail.

I still think you need lots of added heat and very good insulation if you wish to keep something long term. If you plan on only pushing one zone above, say from 7 to 8 and grow a zone 8 palm and then you get a zone 6 winter, which would translate to zone 7 with protection, then that palm could still be dead.

So for long term palms, I still think you should be ready to push around 2 zones if you want to grow a palm that requires one zone above yours. I am very much unprepared for that at the moment, but at least I know to expect my palms to be toast in case of a really cold spell.

This is more likely an issue for more "continental" areas and climates, where winters can be really variable. Places close to large bodies of water usually don't get the same huge swings one winter to the other. Each winter I get into, I'm not sure if it's gonna be a zone 6a winter or an 8b.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Palmlex

[Allen]

18 minutes ago, Palmlex said:

This is more likely an issue for more "continental" areas and climates, where winters can be really variable. Places close to large bodies of water usually don't get the same huge swings one winter to the other. Each winter I get into, I'm not sure if it's gonna be a zone 6a winter or an 8b.

I think this is the case as my zone 7a has not dropped below 7a temps in the last 20 years that I have bothered to run historical temps on it.  But I don't live anywhere near a body of water.  While other zones north of me seem to routinely drop below their zone.  But my area has seen zone 6 temps further back.  

Here is my chart where you can see the range of yearly zones and also see that the average temp each year is a bunch of BS.  The colors are for my reference.  Basically pink/red (bold especially) means my trachy would be in danger.  

Edited January 28, 2022 by Allen

[Palmlex]

2 minutes ago, Allen said:

I think this is the case as my zone 7a has not dropped below 7a temps in the last 20 years that I have bothered to run historical temps on it.  While other zones north of me seem to routinely drop below their zone.  But my area has seen zone 6 temps further back.  

Here is my chart where you can see the range of yearly zones and also see that the average temp each year is a bunch of BS.  The colors are for my reference.  Basically pink/red (bold especially) means my trachy would be in danger.  

I believe the hardiness zones are defined by the average minimum temperature in winter, for a number of years. In that case, since your average minimum temperature in winter seems to be 17.3F in January, that would put your place in zone 8b. Are these temperatures official or measured by you? It's pretty weird that you're a zone 7a but the last 20 years put you basically in the middle of 8b.

If you've measured the temperature yourself, around your house, then your microclimate or the position of the sensor could be an explanation.

[teddytn]

19 minutes ago, Palmlex said:

I believe the hardiness zones are defined by the average minimum temperature in winter, for a number of years. In that case, since your average minimum temperature in winter seems to be 17.3F in January, that would put your place in zone 8b. Are these temperatures official or measured by you? It's pretty weird that you're a zone 7a but the last 20 years put you basically in the middle of 8b.

If you've measured the temperature yourself, around your house, then your microclimate or the position of the sensor could be an explanation.

I live a little north of there. It hit 8f at my house this winter, I think @Allen hit 11f. I expect to see 5f every year. Normally single digits in middle TN every winter, there’s no way to finesse the data to justify an 8b rating. 8b is a world away from the actual plant growing conditions we deal with every year here. Zone 7a rating is spot on. 

[Palmlex]

3 minutes ago, teddytn said:

I live a little north of there. It hit 8f at my house this winter, I think @Allen hit 11f. I expect to see 5f every year. Normally single digits in middle TN every winter, there’s no way to finesse the data to justify an 8b rating. 8b is a world away from the actual plant growing conditions we deal with every year here. Zone 7a rating is spot on. 

I'm not trying to finesse the data :D. That's just what I can make out from the temperature values above. While the area might be 7a, those look like 8b temperatures. So there's got to be a reason for that. It could be that I'm wrong about the way zones are calculated or maybe the temperatures were measured in a well protected area, close to a heated building.

 

[Allen]

44 minutes ago, Palmlex said:

I'm not trying to finesse the data :D. That's just what I can make out from the temperature values above. While the area might be 7a, those look like 8b temperatures. So there's got to be a reason for that. It could be that I'm wrong about the way zones are calculated or maybe the temperatures were measured in a well protected area, close to a heated building.

 

https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/pdf/10.4141/P05-070

Average of the yearly low.  And not the average from the years I have listed.  Current 2012 Plant zone map based on years 1976–2005

Example from my above spreadsheet thru 2018 in F.  I left out the last few warm years.  

3
12
12
14
11
10
7
8
6
17
16
1
3
6
3
3
Average 8.25

Edited January 28, 2022 by Allen

[teddytn]

1 hour ago, Palmlex said:

I'm not trying to finesse the data :D. That's just what I can make out from the temperature values above. While the area might be 7a, those look like 8b temperatures. So there's got to be a reason for that. It could be that I'm wrong about the way zones are calculated or maybe the temperatures were measured in a well protected area, close to a heated building.

 

I’ll try to explain it a little different, from my perspective. If you look at all the years on Allen’s chart that stayed in the teens for the low on a given year or even groups of years. If you plant species based on the warmer years and the next winter drops to 3f, 6f, 1f like on the same chart, at least here locally when we get really cold weather it’s almost always accompanied by a winter storm. In Middle TN a winter storm is freezing rain, snow, ice. That ultimate low in the single digits is almost always accompanied by below freezing temps for days at a time, where the high may be in the teens and then drop back into single digits then next night again. If you have 8b rated palms planted unprotected and experience that kind of weather potentially every year or every few, the palms that you have left alive would let you know what zone your in. Needle palm, Sabal minor and the bigger minor variants Birmingham, Louisiana, Brazoria are the only palms I consider solid here, that’s why I say we’re a far cry from 8b

[MonkeDonkezz]

I have a question, do you define your zone by using the mean minimum in the coldest month or the mean minimum for a year

[Allen]

22 minutes ago, MonkeDonkezz said:

I have a question, do you define your zone by using the mean minimum in the coldest month or the mean minimum for a year

The official way is the average or 'mean' of the absolute low for each year with a 30 year dataset.  So take the lowest temperature of each year and average them.  They used temperature data from December, Jan, Feb.  On my graph I list my yearly zone by the low for the year just for entertainment value.  Personally I like to look at the minimum I have seen on my 20 year chart and plant with that lowest temp in mind.  The lowest here in 20 years has been a 7a temp which corresponds to my official zone.  But the record is much colder 1985 -17F

Edited January 29, 2022 by Allen

[Palmlex]

20 hours ago, Allen said:

https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/pdf/10.4141/P05-070

Average of the yearly low.  And not the average from the years I have listed.  Current 2012 Plant zone map based on years 1976–2005

Example from my above spreadsheet thru 2018 in F.  I left out the last few warm years.  

3
12
12
14
11
10
7
8
6
17
16
1
3
6
3
3
Average 8.25

You are right. I considered the lowest average, which in your spreadsheet represents the coldest week in January, but that doesn't mean there aren't colder days throughout the rest of winter.

In that case you are indeed a 7a-7b zone. I can't believe I overlooked something so simple.

Sorry for the confusion, Allen and @teddytn.

[NBTX11]

I voted 9a.  I rounded up.  Long term average is 8b/9a, right around 20F.   Some years are much warmer than that, and others, like last winter, lower.  

Edited January 29, 2022 by NBTX11

[Jimhardy]

It was 11F here this morning....couldn't help but think to

myself, what a lovely zone 8 morning. 

[Sabal King]

57 minutes ago, Jimhardy said:

It was 11F here this morning....couldn't help but think to

myself, what a lovely zone 8 morning. 

Does that mean I can call myself a zone 10a and start planting coconuts everywhere?! lol... Maybe blue agave and I can start making my own tequila @teddytn

[jaredthesir]

I am on the border of 6a and 6b, but technically 6b according to the map I use.

[Geoff58]

There was no 8a, which is my zone, so I chose 8b. 

[Nomad NYC]

I'm in Zone 7b, but dreaming of being in 8a 

[8BPalms]

Why don't they make another zone reference map that weighs heavily on past and potential record freezes in your area, taking into account the same data over the last 3-4 decades. Like a 'safe zone' map. So if you're in 9b Florida this map would rate you more like lower 8b or something.. 

Then another map that somehow averages out the current zone map with the 'safe zone' map. So this averaged map would rate the same 9b Florida more as 9a.

I think one of these two would be more realistic..

Now some areas might not even change significantly on these maps because they may not experience record freezes every few decades. 

[WSimpson]

On 1/26/2022 at 4:58 PM, Will Simpson said:

I'm 8B this winter so far (19F)  , and 8B last winter (19F) and 9A the previous winter ( 20F) , and I have averaged 12F+ for the lowest Lows for the  last 30years , but according to the zone map I'm 7B , which is reasonable considering I will surely have a 7B winter within a few years  most likely .

Will

I really should've  said that I will also surely also see a 7A winter too . I average 12+ over 30 years but sometimes I have a winter low of 20F and sometimes it's below 5F , so my zone is hard to pinpoint , but generally above 10F , but I expect single digits too .

Will

[Matt N- Dallas]

I’m growing in:

Dallas, TX z8b

San Marcos, TX z8b

Harlingen, TX a warm z9b.  

[NBTX11]

1 hour ago, Matt N- Dallas said:

I’m growing in:

Dallas, TX z8b

San Marcos, TX z8b

Harlingen, TX a warm z9b.  

San Marcos is what 250 miles south of Dallas?  They are not equal, not even close. There are huge Washingtonia survivors 50 plus years old in San Marcos. Heck a few almost purish Robusta survived the Feb 21 freeze in SM. If you average out the long terms in SM it would come out to around 19-20 degrees. A hair under 9a. Barely. 

[Matt N- Dallas]

1 hour ago, NBTX11 said:

San Marcos is what 250 miles south of Dallas?  They are not equal, not even close. There are huge Washingtonia survivors 50 plus years old in San Marcos. Heck a few almost purish Robusta survived the Feb 21 freeze in SM. If you average out the long terms in SM it would come out to around 19-20 degrees. A hair under 9a. Barely. 

I agree.  The warmest parts of central Dallas are a cold 8b & San Marcos is a warm 8b, just a hair under 9a with much shorter freeze durations than Dallas.  

[Philly J]

On 1/27/2022 at 3:55 PM, teddytn said:

Where’s that kid at from Saskatchewan? Gotta have somebody check the zone 3a box 

My 41 year old bones are so grateful for your description 😍 I was feeling old as hell

[SeanK]

Where I live, A bunch of 13° winters are common with a 7b temp every ten years on average. We recently had two 9a winters; my Acanthus mollis looked great. A low of about 6° turned it to mush last week. I'm on the edge of 7b/8a.