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Parajubaea torallyi or hybrids, anyone?


MarkbVet
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Hey, I'm curious if anyone (especially in zone 8) is growing Parajubaea torallyi, the Bolivian Mountain Coconut Palm.  Found in habitats up to 11,000 feet, it has been claimed by some to be hardy to 10F (-12C).   Patrick offers hybrids of Butia odorata X P. torallyi, along with other BxP species hybrids.  I'm considering trying one of his Butia X P. torallyi hybrids, but I know some of you also have his other BxP hybrids.   Then I thought, why not just try pure torallyi as well?  It looks promising on paper.  Thoughts on cold/wet hardiness of any of these plants??   Thanks for your wisdom as always!!  

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Banana Joe up in BC planted a decent sized P torallyi last summer. He protected it with nothing but an umbrella, if it survives the winter he’s had it will be a winner for us in Oregon. He has said that he had a smaller one in the past and it died.

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When I asked Patrick about it. He mentioned that Torallyi can be much more temperamental, he lost one in the past and was in the ground for 10 years. His Sunkha has been planted 30 years and done very well.

I think @Love them palmshas one growing in his garden in Mukilteo, WA maybe he can chime in. 

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1 hour ago, Chester B said:

Banana Joe up in BC planted a decent sized P torallyi last summer. He protected it with nothing but an umbrella, if it survives the winter he’s had it will be a winner for us in Oregon. He has said that he had a smaller one in the past and it died.

He just posted on Facebook recently that it looks good so far after the big freeze but he will keep an eye on it when things start to really warm up. 
 

Another group of promising palms for our climate (especially the hybrids with Butia) but next to impossible to find up here. 

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Zone 8b, Csb (Warm-summer Mediterranean climate). 1,940 annual sunshine hours 
Annual lows-> 19/20: -5.0C, 20/21: -5.5C, 21/22: -8.3C, 22/23: -5.4C (so far!)

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Good topic. I have both B x PJT and B x PJS from Patrick. But not for long enough to offer any data. Matt @ Wanderlust says he’s lost I think 4?! That’s pure Torallyi. NW palms sells them in Auburn but Not sure how much success their clients have had. I originally thought the T was the tougher of the 3 PJ, but reading further had  me wishing I got the sunkha. So I did, so I’ll have the two to compare. Although the sunkha is 4-5ft tall and the T is lanky strap leaf still, there’s an age gap. I’ve got hopes for the Sunkha hybrid but nervous to pull the trigger on any pure PJ. 

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For what it's worth I would also recommend Parajubaea sunkha over the other species.  I had one survive 9°F and 13°F on consecutive nights this past February with minimal protection (no supplemental heat).   It was covered enough to protect it from snow and freezing rain and had minimal foliar damage.  What killed it was high humidity from heavy rains in May and June combined with high night temps in the upper 60's/ low 70's.  :wacko:  It's supposed to be more humidity tolerant than the others.  I doubt that this combination would be a problem in the PNW like here or in the southeast.  Hybrids with sunkha would likely perform even better.

Edited by Fusca
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Jon Sunder

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1 hour ago, Fusca said:

For what it's worth I would also recommend Parajubaea sunkha over the other species.  I had one survive 9°F and 13°F on consecutive nights this past February with minimal protection (no supplemental heat).   It was covered enough to protect it from snow and freezing rain and had minimal foliar damage.  What killed it was high humidity from heavy rains in May and June combined with high night temps in the upper 60's/ low 70's.  :wacko:  It's supposed to be more humidity tolerant than the others.  I doubt that this combination would be a problem in the PNW like here or in the southeast.  Hybrids with sunkha would likely perform even better.

Nice to hear about the cold hardiness!  May have to try the Butia X sunkha hybrid here.  

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3 hours ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Good topic. I have both B x PJT and B x PJS from Patrick. But not for long enough to offer any data. Matt @ Wanderlust says he’s lost I think 4?! That’s pure Torallyi. NW palms sells them in Auburn but Not sure how much success their clients have had. I originally thought the T was the tougher of the 3 PJ, but reading further had  me wishing I got the sunkha. So I did, so I’ll have the two to compare. Although the sunkha is 4-5ft tall and the T is lanky strap leaf still, there’s an age gap. I’ve got hopes for the Sunkha hybrid but nervous to pull the trigger on any pure PJ. 

Please keep us informed how these 2 plants do... guess I'm tending toward the Butia x sunkha hybrid, like you I'm not sure if pure Parajubaea is the most likely to succeed here.  Does your larger plant have a distinctive look, compared to pure Butia,  Jubaea,  or supermules?   My guess is more supermule in appearance?

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6 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

Please keep us informed how these 2 plants do... guess I'm tending toward the Butia x sunkha hybrid, like you I'm not sure if pure Parajubaea is the most likely to succeed here.  Does your larger plant have a distinctive look, compared to pure Butia,  Jubaea,  or supermules?   My guess is more supermule in appearance?

It’s got a unique look to it, it’s tall and pretty straight/flat leaves. Getting a more delicate fiber around trunk, and thin tall trunk. It’s obvious the cross was successful, the Parajubaea traits are significant on mine. It wouldn’t be mistaken for butia in my opinion. Leaf structure close to my jxb but a more delicate/ stretched. And the leaves are soft like velvety almost on the new fronds. I think it’s gonna be a really nice one! The torallyi is just a strap but it’s way taller than the others it’s age. B x PJT on the right and Yatay x Jub left in the last pic. The JxB and the BxSunkha will go in ground in April/may. 

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I have two grown from seed that are currently very happy in their seven gallon grow bags here in NE Florida.  I plan to put both in the ground this spring.  

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47 minutes ago, Scott W said:

I have two grown from seed that are currently very happy in their seven gallon grow bags here in NE Florida.  I plan to put both in the ground this spring.  

PXL_20220117_161323892.thumb.jpg.605c1da8b3f2426ff795b9f81fbdf87a.jpg

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Are these pure, (Tor or Sun?) That trunk looks very close to my BxPJS above. Mine overall actually looks more PJ than B to me, just hope it got the hardiness of the Butia, with some hybrid boost!

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12 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Are these pure, (Tor or Sun?) That trunk looks very close to my BxPJS above. Mine overall actually looks more PJ than B to me, just hope it got the hardiness of the Butia, with some hybrid boost!

To my knowledge yes, the seed was collected from a Torallyii in California by Colleen Wren Poulson.  Not sure she's active here but she is on the IPS FB group.  Having germinated them before this seed definitely was Parajubaea and not Butia....though I've never seen Parajubaea x butia seed for comparison.

Here's a couple seed that didn't germinate...

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Cracked one open and split the kernal ...no signs of an embryo, and these are about two years old

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Im having custom labels made for all my hybrids, and am wondering what name should be given to the B x PJ  hyrbids? BUPARAJUB, PARAJUBUTIA, BUPAJU (haha i like that one).... I need a sort of common name for these. Or am i stuck with the long version? Maybe we can collectively agree on something...

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20 hours ago, Trustandi said:

When I asked Patrick about it. He mentioned that Torallyi can be much more temperamental, he lost one in the past and was in the ground for 10 years. His Sunkha has been planted 30 years and done very well.

I think @Love them palmshas one growing in his garden in Mukilteo, WA maybe he can chime in. 

right now mine is covered by frost cloth in the back yard..I got it from a guy named Dave Alvarez, he said it's been in the Pacific Northwest for a few years.so far its been doing great 

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A few of my P. torallyi microcarpa seeds have germinated.  All I can contribute so far.

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On 1/16/2022 at 7:02 PM, NWpalms@206 said:

It’s got a unique look to it, it’s tall and pretty straight/flat leaves. Getting a more delicate fiber around trunk, and thin tall trunk. It’s obvious the cross was successful, the Parajubaea traits are significant on mine. It wouldn’t be mistaken for butia in my opinion. Leaf structure close to my jxb but a more delicate/ stretched. And the leaves are soft like velvety almost on the new fronds. I think it’s gonna be a really nice one! The torallyi is just a strap but it’s way taller than the others it’s age. B x PJT on the right and Yatay x Jub left in the last pic. The JxB and the BxSunkha will go in ground in April/may. 

9172C647-C1D5-45A4-B06E-BB601D5156D4.jpeg

DD031173-956E-41F3-998E-FA26E560CD20.jpeg

3718F764-77A3-4EF7-9D03-4BDA03378778.jpeg

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Really nice comparisons!  That sunkha hybrid has a very tall thin trunk (and leaves) compared to the JxB!  Probably a faster grower too, let's hope it's really hardy in our climate zone.   Thanks much for sharing, you've got me sold-- on the appearance of the plant at least.  TIme will tell on the hardiness. Crossing my fingers & toes...

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12 hours ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Im having custom labels made for all my hybrids, and am wondering what name should be given to the B x PJ  hyrbids? BUPARAJUB, PARAJUBUTIA, BUPAJU (haha i like that one).... I need a sort of common name for these. Or am i stuck with the long version? Maybe we can collectively agree on something...

much as i like parajubutia it implies that Parajubaea was the seed donor, which would be the reverse cross.   So I'd shy away from that one.  If I may ask, where are u having labels made?   I eventually want nice garden labels, though I've got hundreds of desert plants to label, so cost may push me to hand make labels (got a plan for that lol) 

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On 1/17/2022 at 5:30 AM, MarkbVet said:

Please keep us informed how these 2 plants do... guess I'm tending toward the Butia x sunkha hybrid, like you I'm not sure if pure Parajubaea is the most likely to succeed here.  Does your larger plant have a distinctive look, compared to pure Butia,  Jubaea,  or supermules?   My guess is more supermule in appearance?

hi, I am still learning. Can someone explain something to me. Butia odorata x Syagrus romanzoffiana is always sterile.  But Butia odorata x Jubaea chilensis is fertile? and Butia odorata x Jubaea chilensis x Syagrus romanzoffiana is sterile. Do I have this correct and with the latter is the female Butia odorata x Jubaea chilensis  used to create the Butia odorata x Jubaea chilensis x Syagrus romanzoffiana, with a male Syagrus romanzoffiana? Do I have this right?

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30 minutes ago, vistaprime said:

hi, I am still learning. Can someone explain something to me. Butia odorata x Syagrus romanzoffiana is always sterile.  But Butia odorata x Jubaea chilensis is fertile? and Butia odorata x Jubaea chilensis x Syagrus romanzoffiana is sterile. Do I have this correct and with the latter is the female Butia odorata x Jubaea chilensis  used to create the Butia odorata x Jubaea chilensis x Syagrus romanzoffiana, with a male Syagrus romanzoffiana? Do I have this right?

For the most part you are correct in all of this.

There have been reported cases, though not many, of Butiagrus producing offspring.  There have also been cases of Butiagrus being back crossed using pollen from Jubutia.

Jubaea x butia (Jubutia) and Butia x Jubaea will be fertile and produce selfed offspring and take back crossing of pollen from a Syagrus Romanzoffiana.

What I don't know is if a Jubutia x Syagrus is fertile or not.  I think I heard Frank Lewis has one of his super mules that is flowering, but haven't heard if there have been offspring.

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1 hour ago, vistaprime said:

hi, I am still learning. Can someone explain something to me. Butia odorata x Syagrus romanzoffiana is always sterile.  But Butia odorata x Jubaea chilensis is fertile? and Butia odorata x Jubaea chilensis x Syagrus romanzoffiana is sterile. Do I have this correct and with the latter is the female Butia odorata x Jubaea chilensis  used to create the Butia odorata x Jubaea chilensis x Syagrus romanzoffiana, with a male Syagrus romanzoffiana? Do I have this right?

@vistaprime Yes that sounds mostly correct.  The Mule palm B. odorata x Syagrus romanzoffiana is usually sterile, but not always; some mule palms produce a smaller % of fertile seed. BxJ is fertile, likely due to the 2 plants being more genetically compatible for hybridizing.   The supermules (BxJ) F3 (X S) are not very fertile either, but might on occasion produce small % of viable seed? ...I've not heard anything definitive on this hybrid in terms of sterility percentages.   But I'd go with the opinion that the supermules are mostly sterile, just like the mules, which is why they have to be produced directly via hybridization, and are not typically self-propogating.   And yes,  the supermules use a BxJ female (F3 or 3rd generation self-pollinated),  crossed with pollen from a Syagrus male.  These 'supermules' appear more cold/wet hardy than regular mules, due to the introduction of Jubaea genes.  Hardy in my Pacific Northwest wet zone 8 climate.  By the way, welcome to PalmTalk!  :D

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On 1/16/2022 at 5:26 PM, Fusca said:

For what it's worth I would also recommend Parajubaea sunkha over the other species.  I had one survive 9°F and 13°F on consecutive nights this past February with minimal protection (no supplemental heat).   It was covered enough to protect it from snow and freezing rain and had minimal foliar damage.  What killed it was high humidity from heavy rains in May and June combined with high night temps in the upper 60's/ low 70's.  :wacko:  It's supposed to be more humidity tolerant than the others.  I doubt that this combination would be a problem in the PNW like here or in the southeast.  Hybrids with sunkha would likely perform even better.

Thanks for the info!   Yes you do get the warm spring/summer rains!  I visited San Antonio last summer, beautiful city!  Had many many good meals on the Riverwalk.  Lots of palms to see too, including at the old cemetery near the bed and breakfast we stayed at.   Sorry to see a number of large dead palms downtown, courtesy of prior bad weather.  Really great selection of exotic palm trees and other plants at the arboretum too. 

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1 hour ago, Scott W said:

For the most part you are correct in all of this.

There have been reported cases, though not many, of Butiagrus producing offspring.  There have also been cases of Butiagrus being back crossed using pollen from Jubutia.

Jubaea x butia (Jubutia) and Butia x Jubaea will be fertile and produce selfed offspring and take back crossing of pollen from a Syagrus Romanzoffiana.

What I don't know is if a Jubutia x Syagrus is fertile or not.  I think I heard Frank Lewis has one of his super mules that is flowering, but haven't heard if there have been offspring.

Will be interesting to see!   :happy:

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20 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

much as i like parajubutia it implies that Parajubaea was the seed donor, which would be the reverse cross.   So I'd shy away from that one.  If I may ask, where are u having labels made?   I eventually want nice garden labels, though I've got hundreds of desert plants to label, so cost may push me to hand make labels (got a plan for that lol) 

Engravedplantlabels.com is where I ordered them. Have not received them yet. But will post when I do. I initially did enter “PARAJUBUTIA” because it sounded the most official but I wasn’t 100 percent on it like you said implies the Para is the mother, they will confirm my order and I’ll likely change to “BUPARAJUBAEA” that feels more accurate. I do see both the JxB and BxJ called jubutia but I’ll label mine “BUJUBAEA” and “JUBUTIA” separately. Patrick’s 3way is Bujubyagrus not jubutyagrus like I’ve seen both crosses called. 

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5 hours ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Engravedplantlabels.com is where I ordered them. Have not received them yet. But will post when I do. I initially did enter “PARAJUBUTIA” because it sounded the most official but I wasn’t 100 percent on it like you said implies the Para is the mother, they will confirm my order and I’ll likely change to “BUPARAJUBAEA” that feels more accurate. I do see both the JxB and BxJ called jubutia but I’ll label mine “BUJUBAEA” and “JUBUTIA” separately. Patrick’s 3way is Bujubyagrus not jubutyagrus like I’ve seen both crosses called. 

Thanks!  That site does seem to have the best deal on labels I've seen so far...  still dunno if I want to buy the 100's I'll eventually need lol.  But it's probably as good as I'll find.

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On 1/16/2022 at 11:21 PM, MarkbVet said:

Hey, I'm curious if anyone (especially in zone 8) is growing Parajubaea torallyi, the Bolivian Mountain Coconut Palm.  Found in habitats up to 11,000 feet, it has been claimed by some to be hardy to 10F (-12C).   Patrick offers hybrids of Butia odorata X P. torallyi, along with other BxP species hybrids.  I'm considering trying one of his Butia X P. torallyi hybrids, but I know some of you also have his other BxP hybrids.   Then I thought, why not just try pure torallyi as well?  It looks promising on paper.  Thoughts on cold/wet hardiness of any of these plants??   Thanks for your wisdom as always!!  

is this hardier than a standard Butia odorata x jubea?

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5 hours ago, vistaprime said:

is this hardier than a standard Butia odorata x jubea?

I doubt it,  pure Parajubaea definitely not. The Bx PJ id imagine has similar hardiness to a standard mule (butia x syagrus) which seems to be about 18-20f without damage(based on my research my mules are small still, as are my BxPJS and BxPJT). BxJ and JxB are pretty much the top of the list for cold hardy hybrid i think. Some seeing down to 13f no protection and no damage.  Along with B/Jx J and B/JxB.  I think the consensus would be that the Jubaea is king of the cold. So its hybrids would be hardiest. Jubaea x syagrus is probably the best hybrid for cold tolerance and tropical/visual appeal. But theyre few and far between, Myself and many others fingers are crossed that someone pulls that cross off again. 

Edited by NWpalms@206
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I’ve got bxpjs , bxbjt and a supposed bxpj but I’m not sure the latter is a hybrid. The other two both have a unique look to them. Jxs that I have also looks different then a standard mule. Much more upright fronds. Hoping to get all three in the ground this year but not sure I will have time once the house is done. If not they’ll go in the ground spring of 2023. 

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9 hours ago, vistaprime said:

is this hardier than a standard Butia odorata x jubea?

Not likely; sounds like it's more finicky and tolerates a bit of cold but not as much, and may be not very tolerant of winter moisture.  However, there is promise for Parajubaea hybrids (especially P. sunkha) with Butia odorata.  Patrick (on palmtalk) is selling hybrids. 

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4 hours ago, NWpalms@206 said:

I doubt it,  pure Parajubaea definitely not. The Bx PJ id imagine has similar hardiness to a standard mule (butia x syagrus) which seems to be about 18-20f without damage(based on my research my mules are small still, as are my BxPJS and BxPJT). BxJ and JxB are pretty much the top of the list for cold hardy hybrid i think. Some seeing down to 13f no protection and no damage.  Along with B/Jx J and B/JxB.  I think the consensus would be that the Jubaea is king of the cold. So its hybrids would be hardiest. Jubaea x syagrus is probably the best hybrid for cold tolerance and tropical/visual appeal. But theyre few and far between, Myself and many others fingers are crossed that someone pulls that cross off again. 

Let's hope it's better than a standard mule!   I think the Parajubaeas are more cold tolerant than the Queen palm, so I hope the hybrid with Butia will also be more hardy than the standard mule palms.   One can wish, right?  

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1 hour ago, MarkbVet said:

Let's hope it's better than a standard mule!   I think the Parajubaeas are more cold tolerant than the Queen palm, so I hope the hybrid with Butia will also be more hardy than the standard mule palms.   One can wish, right?  

I hope as well! I thought the queen was good to around 25f and also the para, but para possibly a bit more? I suppose if I only had a queen and a parajubae to plant id put my stock in the parajubaea. Which can mean good things for the hybrid.  Honestly though Im just regurgitating information Ive read at this point. But Im on track to have some good personal experience and data for PNW over the next few years. At least on paper the BxPJ hybrids should be adaptable to 8b, with protection likely needed first few winters.  

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1 hour ago, NWpalms@206 said:

I hope as well! I thought the queen was good to around 25f and also the para, but para possibly a bit more? I suppose if I only had a queen and a parajubae to plant id put my stock in the parajubaea. Which can mean good things for the hybrid.  Honestly though Im just regurgitating information Ive read at this point. But Im on track to have some good personal experience and data for PNW over the next few years. At least on paper the BxPJ hybrids should be adaptable to 8b, with protection likely needed first few winters.  

Give it a go and let us know!  We're thirsty for knowledge lol.   Sure is a nice looking hybrid, very tall/thin, doesn't look like it will resemble Butia or BxJ much at all, which is great.  Hopefully tolerant of winter wet and cold into the low-mid teens (i have no data supporting that, just HOPING).   

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3 hours ago, RJ said:

In order : jxs , bxpjs , bxpjt 

 

 

98E083A8-009C-4903-9FE2-8FCF0E07AB39.jpeg

Those are nice looking!  If similar age, that torallyi is really takin' off.  The JxS looks good too; hard hybrid to come by... I'm hoping that the Jubaea genes really make it hardy, and the S genes give it a feathery tropical look.  Would love to see a Jubaea X Parajubaea (sunkha or torallyi) hybrid!  I'd bet it would look really cool and be hardy to zone 8.  Anyone successfully hybridized these yet?  

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@MarkbVet i have never heard anyone successfully hybridized Jubaea x Parajubaea yet. I know Patrick successfully hybridized Parajubaea x Jubaea and Parajubaea x B/J. We can only hope Patrick will have one in the future.

 

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1 hour ago, Trustandi said:

@MarkbVet i have never heard anyone successfully hybridized Jubaea x Parajubaea yet. I know Patrick successfully hybridized Parajubaea x Jubaea and Parajubaea x B/J. We can only hope Patrick will have one in the future.

 

PxJ works for me too..... Patrick doesn't list them on his current offerings for sale.

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FYI - Was chatting with Banana Joe yesterday, and he says so far his P torallyi looks good after the cold.

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2 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Those are nice looking!  If similar age, that torallyi is really takin' off.  The JxS looks good too; hard hybrid to come by... I'm hoping that the Jubaea genes really make it hardy, and the S genes give it a feathery tropical look.  Would love to see a Jubaea X Parajubaea (sunkha or torallyi) hybrid!  I'd bet it would look really cool and be hardy to zone 8.  Anyone successfully hybridized these yet?  

Pjxj has been done by Patrix. @Ben in Norcal has one iirc. Very few of them around.  I don’t think patrix has been successful the other way around. Ben would know for sure.  No pjcxj that I’m aware but honestly I haven’t been in contact with patrix for awhile. 
 

I know it’s fun to imagine these hybrids as zone 8 hardy but just remember a standard butia is just barely a zone 8 palm. The reality is I would not expect these to be long term, meaning 30+ years in any zone 8 garden. I say plant them , protect them if you can and enjoy them :greenthumb:

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37 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

PxJ works for me too..... Patrick doesn't list them on his current offerings for sale.

Last I knew they’re roughly a half dozen of them in existence. 

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Jxs doesn’t like being in a pot imo. But yes all about the sam age, I definitely don’t push them either. 

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