In depth analysis of the Athens Riviera climate and palm potential

[bubba]

Wow!

[Than]

On 2/12/2022 at 5:56 PM, Manos33 said:

Wow amazing!

Where exactly in Nea Smyrni are they located?

I've just seen this!! I want those trees' seeds! Haha

[Than]

@Phoenikakias from those palms that you recommended for our climate, are there any that thrive in shade apart from Howea?

[Phoenikakias]

2 hours ago, ego said:

@Phoenikakias from those palms that you recommended for our climate, are there any that thrive in shade apart from Howea?

Chamaedorea thrive in shade and Rhapis as well.  Note please however that a shade outdoors is entirely different from the shade in room conditions. I am not sure what kind of shade you were referring to.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Phoenikakias

[Than]

36 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Chamaedorea thrive in shade and Rhapis as well.  Note please however that a shade outdoors is entirely different from the shade in room conditions. I am not sure what kind of shade you were referring to.

Oh yeah I'm talking about shade outdoors. Cos you know, in a garden not everyone can be in the sun. Someone has to take the shady spots too. 

Is it rhapis excelsa you're talking about?

Edited March 22, 2022 by ego

[Phoenikakias]

Any Rhapis

[Than]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

Any Rhapis

Can they survive our winter outdoors?

[Phoenikakias]

17 minutes ago, ego said:

Can they survive our winter outdoors?

Tough as nails in coastal Attica

[southathens]

On 3/14/2022 at 6:08 PM, Manos33 said:

I think the chances of WMO actually verifying this record are very slim. The committee will take a couple of years to verify the 48.8C but from the reports I have seen so far I think the chances are higher that it will be rejected. But let's see, who knows.  

In Greece, there are are a couple readings of 50-51C in the Nea Filadelfeia and Lamia private met stations but they are all trash in my opinion. 

Oh and I almost forgot! A few more information on why I said that the WMO will probably reject the 48.8C in Siracusa. 

https://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/77772-highest-ever-recorded-temperature-in-europe/&do=findComment&comment=1147943

In all probability the European T record of 48.0C in Athens will continue to stand. I would be surprised if WMO goes ahead and recognizes a value from a station looking like that.

https://wmo.asu.edu/content/europe-highest-temperature

Edited March 23, 2022 by Manos33

[Than]

8 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Tough as nails in coastal Attica

I'm looking to buy land in Oropos, near Dilesi. That's also coastal Attica but the northernmost edge. According to hardiness.inforest it's 9b and the lowest is -2,8C. Will I regret it palm-wise you reckon? On the other hand I noticed that the daily maxima there are 2C higher than here in Nea Makri..

[Phoenikakias]

16 minutes ago, ego said:

I'm looking to buy land in Oropos, near Dilesi. That's also coastal Attica but the northernmost edge. According to hardiness.inforest it's 9b and the lowest is -2,8C. Will I regret it palm-wise you reckon? On the other hand I noticed that the daily maxima there are 2C higher than here in Nea Makri..

Not optimal for exotic planting. After the 2004 cold event I had  noticed that even CIDPs had been heavily damaged in Halkoutsi and Skala Oropou.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Phoenikakias

[Than]

4 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Not optimal for exotic planting. After the 2004 cold event I had  noticed that even CIDPs had been heavily damaged in Halkoutsi and Skala Oropou.

Oh God... I remember back then that the difference between Athens city and northern Attica was huge. I guess the mountains around Athens protect it from cold events..?

On the other hand what I have read is that the microclimate in the land plot is more important. The plot is about 6km from the coast so it is not as windy. It also has a two storey house on the northern side which will cut off the northern winds and the south facing wall will radiate heat... 

Edited March 23, 2022 by ego

[Phoenikakias]

1 minute ago, ego said:

Oh God... I remember back then that the difference between Athens city and northern Attica was huge. I guess the mountains around Athens protect it from cold events..?

On the other side what I have read is that the microclimate in the plot is more important. The plot is about 6km from the coast so it is not as windy. It also has a two storey house on the northern side which will cut off the northern winds and the south facing wall will radiate heat... 

No view to the sea? How about purchasing a plot in Efedron Axiomatikon area?

[Than]

6 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

No view to the sea? How about purchasing a plot in Efedron Axiomatikon area?

Sea view costs  Also as you know, notios evoikos is very windy and after the extreme winds of Nea Makri I will happily stay away from the coast. I want my banana leaves intact, you know  The last 5 days in Nea Makri the wind has been constantly at 50-60 km/hr.. I also don't wanna live in the forest anymore. As beautiful as it may be, sleeping with my mobile on next to my pillow every night for 5 months in case of an alarm from Civil Protection is too stressful. 

Never heard of Efedron Axiomatikon area, I'll google it. Is it in Kantza?

Edited March 23, 2022 by ego

[Victor G.]

1 hour ago, ego said:

Sea view costs  Also as you know, notios evoikos is very windy and after the extreme winds of Nea Makri I will happily stay away from the coast. I want my banana leaves intact, you know  The last 5 days in Nea Makri the wind has been constantly at 50-60 km/hr.. I also don't wanna live in the forest anymore. As beautiful as it may be, sleeping with my mobile on next to my pillow every night for 5 months in case of an alarm from Civil Protection is too stressful. 

Never heard of Efedron Axiomatikon area, I'll google it. Is it in Kantza?

Come to dikastika! (Just kidding)

But I too think Oropos has heavy influences from mountain air, while Chalkida on the other side which is even further up has no problem. I've seen there canary palms, arecastrum, bananas (in chalkida).

But if you don't want to give up on tropicals, you could have a problem there. (You can also check if there's any weather stations on wunderground & weather cloud map to see temps).

I've heard that bananas do really well when you close to sea, not just because of the mild temperature. 

[Than]

18 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Come to dikastika! (Just kidding)

But I too think Oropos has heavy influences from mountain air, while Chalkida on the other side which is even further up has no problem. I've seen there canary palms, arecastrum, bananas (in chalkida).

But if you don't want to give up on tropicals, you could have a problem there. (You can also check if there's any weather stations on wunderground & weather cloud map to see temps).

I've heard that bananas do really well when you close to sea, not just because of the mild temperature. 

Dikastika?? What can I grow on naked rock?  Kidding, but on a serious note the soil in Oropos is so much better than in Nea Makri. It's much less rocky and darker brown colour. Nothing like the 75% rock, 25% red clay we have here in Nea Makri.

You're right about bananas but I bet they can grow in Oropos too. I have seen bananas in Karditsa. And there are hardy varieties anyway, like musa basjoo. The plot is only 5km from the coast, so it's not really inland? I don't mind covering the tender plants during cold spells.

I check the weather in Oropos every day. Temperatures seem to be a bit more extreme than in Nea Makri. The maximum is 1-2 degrees higher and the minimum 1-2 degrees lower. Today for instance it is 7-10 in Nea Makri and 6-11 in Oropos. Not sure about winter months though as I only started checking last week since I found that plot. Later this week temperatures in Nea Makri will reach 19-20C and in Oropos 22C. So I guess the higher maxima can compensate for the lower minima?

I believe that the plot's microclimate will be more important. The south-facing wall especially. Well, at least I hope so. 

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by ego

[Than]

Is there some website where I can search for past temperatures in specific places? Like temperatures in Oropos on 20/11/2020 for example?

[Victor G.]

33 minutes ago, ego said:

Is there some website where I can search for past temperatures in specific places? Like temperatures in Oropos on 20/11/2020 for example?

Here's what I could gather with a quick search:

Official Weather Stations (from the National Observatory of Athens)
Go to http://stratus.meteo.noa.gr/front
There's a weather station in Oropos. (It's not exactly Dilesi, but it's near and very close to the sea, so there shouldn't be a huge difference)
Click on the weather station and then "Open station".
Down left you can see the past monthly data. The station was installed on 4/4/19 so there isn't that much data , but still.
For the same station's this year's data, go to http://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/oropos/

Personal Weather Stations
Go to https://app.weathercloud.net/d8929190963#profile
It's in Chalkoutsi, again not exactly Dilesi, but still near.
Click on the tab "Current" (upper right). You can see this month's low was -1,5C and this year's -2,3C, so it has the potential of going into such temperatures.

You can generally search for personal weather stations here: here and here

Some owners have their contact data too, so maybe you can ask them if they have archived data

[Than]

2 hours ago, Victor G. said:

Here's what I could gather with a quick search:

Official Weather Stations (from the National Observatory of Athens)
Go to http://stratus.meteo.noa.gr/front
There's a weather station in Oropos. (It's not exactly Dilesi, but it's near and very close to the sea, so there shouldn't be a huge difference)
Click on the weather station and then "Open station".
Down left you can see the past monthly data. The station was installed on 4/4/19 so there isn't that much data , but still.
For the same station's this year's data, go to http://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/oropos/

Personal Weather Stations
Go to https://app.weathercloud.net/d8929190963#profile
It's in Chalkoutsi, again not exactly Dilesi, but still near.
Click on the tab "Current" (upper right). You can see this month's low was -1,5C and this year's -2,3C, so it has the potential of going into such temperatures.

You can generally search for personal weather stations here: here and here

Some owners have their contact data too, so maybe you can ask them if they have archived data

Wow, if that's what you can do with a quick search, imagine with a prolonged one! Many fanks!

[Victor G.]

21 minutes ago, ego said:

Wow, if that's what you can do with a quick search, imagine with a prolonged one! Many fanks!

Hahaha, I mean if you have enough time you can see all the nearby stations on the last two maps and document the year's minimums. This way you can have a better opinion.

You can also look in Ambient weather maps (type that on Google). This is also a map with personal weather stations. Maybe you'll get lucky there and find something closer to the place you want. (Couldn't post link now because I'm writing on a phone)

No problem and good luck!

(I've spent hours trying to figure out the climate in dikastika, unfortunately there are no stations nearby, in this gulf)

Edited March 23, 2022 by Victor G.

[Than]

Actually I found a weather station very close to the land I wanna buy. Thanks a lot.

Damn... that land is big enough, in a quiet area only 40min from Athens and super cheap... has got everything.. but I won't be able to even try Roystoneas and many tropicals I like.. :'( 

@Phoenikakias with lowest of -3 do you think a Roystonea protected in fleece could survive? 

Edited March 23, 2022 by ego

[Phoenikakias]

51 minutes ago, ego said:

Actually I found a weather station very close to the land I wanna buy. Thanks a lot.

Damn... that land is big enough, in a quiet area only 40min from Athens and super cheap... has got everything.. but I won't be able to even try Roystoneas and many tropicals I like.. :'( 

@Phoenikakias with lowest of -3 do you think a Roystonea protected in fleece could survive? 

Hell no, I am sorry. Btw nothing in this world is cheap for no special reason... It is not only 40 min away from Athens. 40 min away from Athens is my garden , about 40 km distance. Your future property is over 60 km away. You will need over an hour travelling with a car and without taking in to account the daily vehicle congestion on the highway during rush hour. One small detail Dilesi is already part of Boeotia not Attica.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Phoenikakias

[Victor G.]

1 hour ago, ego said:

Actually I found a weather station very close to the land I wanna buy. Thanks a lot.

Damn... that land is big enough, in a quiet area only 40min from Athens and super cheap... has got everything.. but I won't be able to even try Roystoneas and many tropicals I like.. :'( 

@Phoenikakias with lowest of -3 do you think a Roystonea protected in fleece could survive? 

Oh damn, -3 is very cold! If you're serious about growing tropical plants, that will be a bummer. I don't think every winter is gonna be like this, but it will set you back every couple of years.

If you only want to grow bananas you can plant them every spring and enjoy them, but anything else will be difficult.

On the other hand, if you've found a piece of property and you really like it, you can still grow them with protection. There is a Facebook group called "zone pushers" (if I remember correctly) where people grow tropical plants in crazy zones, like 7-8, with a lot of protection.

Or you can grow some cold hardy varieties, but remember, musa basjoo looks nice but you can't eat the fruit!

There are ways, so if you really want to go there, plants shouldn't stop you. If you're willing to do some extra things in the winter, you can grow a lot there!

[southathens]

Btw Oropos can do wonders some days with phoen winds. For example that NE tip of Attica actually has the January all time record high for Attica alongside Salamina with around 27C

[southathens]

 

Θεωρώ ότι οι πιο ήπιες ζώνες της Αττικής το χειμώνα είναι η ζώνη στα χαμηλά της Νέας Σμύρνης και γύρω μέχρι τη παραλία,  το νοτιοδυτικό άκρο του Πειραιά, η περιοχή γύρω από το Καβούρι/Λαιμό/Βουλιαγμένη,  η Ανάβυσσος και το νοτιότερο άκρο στο Σούνιο. 

Οι περιοχές μέσα στο πολεοδομικό συγκρότημα όπως Νέα Σμύρνη και Πειραιάς ενδεχομένως σε μεγάλες χρονοσειρές να ξεπερνούν σε ηπιότητα ακόμα και Βουλιαγμένη κτλ κυρίως λόγω UHI. Αυτή τη στιγμή ο Πειραιάς από 30ετή στατιστικά έχει τις υψηλότερες μέσες μέγιστες/ελάχιστες στην Αττική ενώ από τα πιο πρόσφατα στατιστικά η Νέα Σμύρνη έχει ξεφύγει με σχεδόν 15 μέση μέγιστη και 9 μέση ελάχιστη τον Ιανουάριο. 

Εντυπωσιακό είναι οτι καθόλο το χειμερινό τρίμηνο ΔΙΦ η Νέα Σμύρνη έχει μέση μέγιστη 15.5 βαθμούς και μέση ελάχιστη σχεδόν 10 βαθμούς. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Manos33

[Than]

7 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Hell no, I am sorry. Btw nothing in this world is cheap for no special reason... It is not only 40 min away from Athens. 40 min away from Athens is my garden , about 40 km distance. Your future property is over 60 km away. You will need over an hour travelling with a car and without taking in to account the daily vehicle congestion on the highway during rush hour. One small detail Dilesi is already part of Boeotia not Attica.

You're right, it's one hour to the centre of Athens, especially on rush hour. When I go to Athens though I usually go to the N-NE suburbs and do my shopping there, meet friends etc. The land plot I want to buy is exactly 40km from Marousi. It's in Oropos town, not Dilesi. We just mentioned Dilesi because a weather station is there. However this is off topic. My main concern is that I won't be able to grow some of the plants I fancy. I guess I have to set my priorities straight first. 

[Than]

6 hours ago, Victor G. said:

Oh damn, -3 is very cold! If you're serious about growing tropical plants, that will be a bummer. I don't think every winter is gonna be like this, but it will set you back every couple of years.

If you only want to grow bananas you can plant them every spring and enjoy them, but anything else will be difficult.

On the other hand, if you've found a piece of property and you really like it, you can still grow them with protection. There is a Facebook group called "zone pushers" (if I remember correctly) where people grow tropical plants in crazy zones, like 7-8, with a lot of protection.

Or you can grow some cold hardy varieties, but remember, musa basjoo looks nice but you can't eat the fruit!

There are ways, so if you really want to go there, plants shouldn't stop you. If you're willing to do some extra things in the winter, you can grow a lot there!

I guess you're right. Who wants to lose their plants every 2-3 years? I'm willing to protect them in the winter with individual greenhouses maybe but you know, that's easy when plants are small. Once they grow that becomes very difficult. And at nights an unheated greenhouse doesn't offer much. Heating a greenhouse with the current electricity prices is also out of the question, so.. I guess I must stop looking at that area and focus on south and west Attica.

[Than]

5 hours ago, Manos33 said:

Btw Oropos can do wonders some days with phoen winds. For example that NE tip of Attica actually has the January all time record high for Attica alongside Salamina with around 27C

Exactly what I wrote before. Oropos area for some reason seems to have higher maxima than most areas in Attica. I don't know why. I am wondering if that could compensate for the lower minima in the winter. Probably not.

[Victor G.]

29 minutes ago, ego said:

I guess I have to set my priorities straight first. 

Exactly, it all comes down to how important gardening is to you. But good luck with the search (*cough*Kasos!*cough*)

[southathens]

28 minutes ago, ego said:

Exactly what I wrote before. Oropos area for some reason seems to have higher maxima than most areas in Attica. I don't know why. I am wondering if that could compensate for the lower minima in the winter. Probably not.

Well, not exactly. It does not have higher winter maxima on average. It's just that some days when S winds prevail in Attica they act as foehn winds as they pass from the slopes of Parnitha and reach the Oropos area significantly heated. Actually even higher maxima on those days are seen in Avlonas. Basically when S winds prevail in Attica Avlonas-Oropos and most of the Mesogeia heat up from Parnitha and Imitos.

On the other hand when N winds prevail in Attica and the sea breeze is weak the south suburbs at the south tip of Imitos like Elliniko heat up significantly. But by far the strongest foehn effect in Attica is seen in the Thriasio Plain during the summer when Elefsina, Mandra and Aspropirgos loose any characteristic of seaside areas and become the hottest parts of Attica and Greece. In fact because of this very characteristic Attica holds the European temperature record of 48C in Elefsina. It should be noted that Elefsina has the highest frequency in Greece's meteorological history with T's over 45C. It beats Larisa, Argos, Sparta and so on. The foehn in Elefsina is next level foehn for Greece's standards. This is due to the huge mountains directly N, W and E of Elefsina. 

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Manos33

[Victor G.]

Man, stuff like this really gets you motivated (mango)

[Than]

8 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Exactly, it all comes down to how important gardening is to you. But good luck with the search (*cough*Kasos!*cough*)

Hahaha are you guys trying to expel me to Kasos to look after the doomed coconut?

Kasos is slightly too isolated, even for my standards! I have an olive field in Chania. I can plant a coconut tree there and ask my uncle to water it; that's all I'm afraid

[Than]

1 minute ago, Victor G. said:

Man, stuff like this really gets you motivated (mango)

How does she know it can take -5 if it never gets that cold in Voula??

[southathens]

4 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Man, stuff like this really gets you motivated (mango)

Yeah let's translate this one for non Greek speakers. 

In short a resident of the Athens Riviera in the Voula area mentions that they  have 7 mango trees and each of these gives up to 35 mangos. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Manos33

[Victor G.]

Just now, ego said:

How does she know it can take -5 if it never gets that cold in Voula??

Maybe he has read it (it's a he, I just wanted to blur out his name to be safe).

I have read that established trees can take up to -4C, but maybe it's a more hardy variety (??). Or maybe just an assumption. Or a friend's experience (not in Voula).

Maybe you can plant mangoes in Oropos, I'll definitely buy from you!

[southathens]

5 minutes ago, ego said:

How does she know it can take -5 if it never gets that cold in Voula??

Yeah, from the way he writes it I can infer that he means that mangos can sometimes survive -5C . Not that Voula reaches these T's

Edited March 23, 2022 by Manos33

[Than]

Oops

Edited March 23, 2022 by ego
mistake

[Victor G.]

@egoSince you're also interested in tropical plants, I strongly suggest that you check out this group that Phoenikakias suggested above. You'll find a lot of useful information about them.

Also, look at this (it's the same mangoes guy). Last post about mangoes I swear!

[southathens]

I bet this guy lives very close to the coast. I doubt he could have achieved this in upper Voula. He must be around the area where the Roystonea is located.  

[Victor G.]

1 minute ago, Manos33 said:

I bet this guy lives very close to the coast. I doubt he could have achieved this in upper Voula. He must be around the area where the Roystonea is located.  

When I return to Greece permanently, I have set my mind to plant many mangoes in Dikastika.

And when I say I'll do it, I'll do it. All summer people were laughing at me when I said I will break the road to install underground piping (to water the plants automatically) and pour concrete on top. Until I did it. Took me 7 hours under the scorching July sun.

So I hope one day I can say the same things as this guy on FB. And of course, invite you all (for mangoes)