Florida Winter 2021-2022

[NickJames]

Typo. Decipiens

[pj_orlando_z9b]

3 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

What you have is consistent with what I saw in the I-Drive corridor today.  Some yellow and bronzed leaf ends, but nothing fatal.

Agree. I think we have one more freeze scare around 2/15 per models. Euro even has a high in the 40s. Kinda rare for mid Feb but I believe it. When NOAA calls for above average in a month, except opposite. 

[kinzyjr]

Just now, pj_orlando_z9b said:

Agree. I think we have one more freeze scare around 2/15 per models. Euro even has a high in the 40s. Kinda rare for mid Feb but I believe it. When NOAA calls for above average in a month, except opposite. 

I left everything uncovered for the last go-round.  If we get another dose of all day chill and wind, it might be wise for me to go ahead and do a wrap.  Let's all hope for no repeat of Valentine's Day, 1899.

[pj_orlando_z9b]

Just now, kinzyjr said:

I left everything uncovered for the last go-round.  If we get another dose of all day chill and wind, it might be wise for me to go ahead and do a wrap.  Let's all hope for no repeat of Valentine's Day, 1899.

Oh, I'll have to read about that freeze. 

[TampaPalms]

13 minutes ago, pj_orlando_z9b said:

Oh, I'll have to read about that freeze. 

 

[Jimbean]

1 hour ago, TampaPalms said:

 

That map does not look entirely accurate.

[kinzyjr]

In regard to the 1899 freeze (a.k.a The Valentine's Day Massacre), the full list of temperatures from NOAA is available here as a spreadsheet and as an image:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/15208-looking-back-at-the-great-us-freezes/&do=findComment&comment=961533

[Jimbean]

37 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

In regard to the 1899 freeze (a.k.a The Valentine's Day Massacre), the full list of temperatures from NOAA is available here as a spreadsheet and as an image:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/15208-looking-back-at-the-great-us-freezes/&do=findComment&comment=961533

That's it!

[TampaPalms]

5 hours ago, Jimbean said:

That map does not look entirely accurate.

That's from the 1899 event, not upcoming temperatures.

[Jimbean]

1 hour ago, TampaPalms said:

That's from the 1899 event, not upcoming temperatures.

Sebastian wasn't 20F

[kinzyjr]

Looks like some chilly days coming.

[D. Morrowii]

A few more 40s than I was hoping for…

[pj_orlando_z9b]

5 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Looks like some chilly days coming.

Signs are the pattern change happens after 2/14. The Pacific ridge looks to break down...let's hope. 

[chad2468emr]

19 hours ago, NickJames said:

I’m so over it, I really am. Seriously. Lol. 
 

To take the edge off my gloominess, I’m getting a couple hardier (and big) palms this week. Either Livistona Nitida or Livistona Deciphens. 

I feel this. Honestly after how tragic my yard looks right now, hardy, simple, low-maintenance species that do well in FL seems so appealing, hahaha. “oooOooooo, Sabal palms!!!” 

[NickJames]

8 minutes ago, chad2468emr said:

I feel this. Honestly after how tragic my yard looks right now, hardy, simple, low-maintenance species that do well in FL seems so appealing, hahaha. “oooOooooo, Sabal palms!!!” 

This photo basically sums it up. Why did I get those $99 royals from lowes when I could’ve just got more of those taller, hardier queens for the same price ha ha 

[pj_orlando_z9b]

1 hour ago, NickJames said:

This photo basically sums it up. Why did I get those $99 royals from lowes when I could’ve just got more of those taller, hardier queens for the same price ha ha 

Because they're going to look great when they recover. 

[pj_orlando_z9b]

The Euro is going full onslaught on this cold.  The last four runs for the 15th have continued to drop.

MCO: 43, 36, 36, 31

TPA: 48, 42, 37, 30

GFS meanwhile has both in the upper 40s. 

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, pj_orlando_z9b said:

The Euro is going full onslaught on this cold.  The last four runs for the 15th have continued to drop.

MCO: 43, 36, 36, 31

TPA: 48, 42, 37, 30

GFS meanwhile has both in the upper 40s. 

Time to put the blankets and towels on standby...

[Matthew92]

On the subject of February freezes in FL, one I was thinking about lately was February 19-20th, 2015.  This was shortly before I got into Palmtalk, and I recently tried to look back to see if there was any discussion on this event on here when it happened, but I surprisingly couldn't find any. I recorded 22 degrees at my place and the temp flirted with freezing down to Orlando (probably freezing or lower in the cold pockets). I happened to be in Orlando at the time for a conference and some of the people from up north were surprised at how cold it was.  Pretty considerable for late February. I seem to recall that even lower temps were originally forecast for Orlando only to go up in the last day or two. One memory I have is that I had done some protection measures before I left on the trip, but then became distressed upon remembering that my potted Dioon edule was left out in the open yard. This was before I was fully aware of their cold hardiness and of course when I came home I was relieved that it was unfazed.  Any of you recall this/what temps you experienced at your location?

Orlando, FL Weather History | Weather Underground (wunderground.com) (February 2015)

Edited February 7, 2022 by Matthew92

[NickJames]

I was trying to research the comment above and found this from last year. 

Whatever this supposedly was turned out to be a bust obviously!

Hoping next week turns out to be a bust, too!

[Walt]

On 2/5/2022 at 10:17 PM, kinzyjr said:

I left everything uncovered for the last go-round.  If we get another dose of all day chill and wind, it might be wise for me to go ahead and do a wrap.  Let's all hope for no repeat of Valentine's Day, 1899.

In the 24 years I've lived here, the latest I've had frost was February 16th, but it wasn't a bad frost. However, the latest I've had damaging frost was February 14, 2006 (St. Valentine's Day). I had 27 degrees with heavy frost. I even posted about it here, referring to it as the St. Valentine's Day Massacre (on my palm garden). Below are some photos taken some days later showing the full blown damage. I have other photos taken on 2-15-2006 but the damage isn't as apparent. A friend of mine who lives on the east side of Lake Placid (second largest lake in Highlands County) only recorded 41 degrees and no frost. He drove over to my place and could hardly believe the cold carnage.  At that time my parents also lived on lake front property on Lake Placid. I had earlier placed a Halsey-Taylor hi-lo mercury thermometer in their back yard about 50 feet from the lake. I drove over to reset the thermometer some days after the 14th -- and the thermometer read 41 degrees. The positive thermal effect of the lake water is amazing.

I drove up into town, and the same thing -- no cold/frost damage (due to elevation). 

Photo #1: My Ficus altissima mostly defoliated

Photo #2: One of my majesty palms

Photo #3: A clump of Dypsis lutescens in the open. This clump died (for the most part) and I dug it out

Photo: #4: Queen sago palms

Photo #5: Fried adonidia palm one block from my house.

Conversely, many of the same species of palms under canopy got little or no frost damage.

[Bill H2DB]

Here's some NWS data for Feb. and March for Orlando .  I can't find data like this for Highlands county . Open area frost can occur well into March , in Central Fla.

The photo is of myself and friends at the 12 Hours of Sebring in about 1966 or so. That morning , we awoke to Frost on my car and on the plastic shelter that we made .

(The Sebring race is always in mid March , about the 15th to about the 22nd or so . ) The track is just North of Lake Istokpoga , and at a low elevation . The town of Sebring itself probably had no  or very little frost that morning as it mostly sits at a much higher elevation .

 

[sonoranfans]

On 2/4/2022 at 11:07 AM, chad2468emr said:

Hey y’all, been a while since I was around in these parts! wanted to stop by and share some very grim photos from my back yard after last weeks temps. My yard in Waterford Lakes (East of Orlando) saw lows of 41, 34, and 34 last Saturday morning - Monday morning. Sadly, I was out of town for work and had no ability to protect my palms. Anything that was potted and not in-ground had been put inside but I knew I was gonna come home to some scorched palms and it was stressing me the entire trip. The massive red dwarf coconut I have in a pot on the south facing front of my house somehow managed to get zero damage other than the yellowing from less-than-ideal coco-temps, but I have no pictures on me. The four in the backyard I was very worried about were my teddy, kentiopsis oliviformis, my archie alex double, and a majesty. See below. The photos are grim!

Please excuse my messy and, at times, incredibly weedy mulch beds. They’ve been an ongoing project the last few months as I scape my back yard and I haven’t bothered with upkeep to make them pretty, haha. 

Teddy:

archies: 

Royal: 

 

KO:

Majesty:

Looks like most will be fine though you will have to tolerate the brown and/or reduced crown for a while.  Cold tolerance is about survival, those spears look intact.  As they get larger they become less susceptible to damage and death and they recover from damage more quicky.  Each person has to decide how often such a freeze will occur and whether they want to deal with damage every 3-5 years or perhaps more frequently.  Back to back winter defoliation can seriously weaken a palm and make it more susceptible to subsequent cold.  My (3) ~ 25' kentiopsis took good burn in 2018, all but the spear.  But about 2 years later you couldn't tell.  My ~ 25' archie alexanders also were completely fried but came back pretty quickly that year.  Once you get through a juvenile window they recover faster.  After I had lots of small crownshafts(10+) killed in 2010 @ 28F, I adapted my strategy and planned to protect my zone 10 palms differently, I put none out front to the north, almost all are planted in the back south of the house and close in with more dense planting and a wooded border.  Out front, the grass can still grow and my most susceptible palms are mor densely planted not enough sun to grow grass.  If you can grow grass, its not going to be a warm area in a radiative cold like this.

[Walt]

8 hours ago, Bill H2DB said:

Here's some NWS data for Feb. and March for Orlando .  I can't find data like this for Highlands county . Open area frost can occur well into March , in Central Fla.

The photo is of myself and friends at the 12 Hours of Sebring in about 1966 or so. That morning , we awoke to Frost on my car and on the plastic shelter that we made .

(The Sebring race is always in mid March , about the 15th to about the 22nd or so . ) The track is just North of Lake Istokpoga , and at a low elevation . The town of Sebring itself probably had no  or very little frost that morning as it mostly sits at a much higher elevation .

 

Sebring is on higher ground. My brother lives in Sebring, just one block east of US 27. His lows run 5-6 degrees warmer than mine. But he's not in the warmest areas of Sebring. There are higher elevation areas.  When I get the chance I like to check out these two coconut palms to see how they fared over the winter: https://www.google.com/maps/@27.4709262,-81.4364348,3a,22.9y,99.19h,97.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHMgesTl1oe52h9M3NSHiug!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I also check these:https://www.google.com/maps/@27.4693047,-81.458759,3a,52.2y,78.61h,90.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spINtNGOjRxB8mRetKdtH9Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[TampaPalms]

Looks like the models back off on the cold from my amateurish eyes. 

I hope so because I'm itching to trim the rest of my palms. I started, I couldn't help myself LOL.

Anyone have experience with cold damage arecas or white birds? Any tips?

[NickJames]

1 hour ago, TampaPalms said:

Looks like the models back off on the cold from my amateurish eyes. 

I hope so because I'm itching to trim the rest of my palms. I started, I couldn't help myself LOL.

Anyone have experience with cold damage arecas or white birds? Any tips?

Yes. At my last house, I lost nearly 75% of my d. Lutescens foliage in Jan. 2021.

luckily, the outer foliage protected the inner foliage. By the time I sold this last fall, they were fuller than before. See attached listing photo  you would never have known they were completely bronze just months earlier  

I only trimmed off actual brown leaflets. I would leave half fronds on. Im probably just weird. Lol. 

[pj_orlando_z9b]

3 hours ago, TampaPalms said:

Looks like the models back off on the cold from my amateurish eyes. 

I hope so because I'm itching to trim the rest of my palms. I started, I couldn't help myself LOL.

Anyone have experience with cold damage arecas or white birds? Any tips?

I don't have arecas but they tend to rebound quickly.  Looks like you cut it correctly.  I saw that too with the models...nice trend.  Euro last 3 runs for Orlando went from 31 to 37 to now 43.  Still below normal.  Avg temps are 74/51 here. 

[ruskinPalms]

18 hours ago, TampaPalms said:

Looks like the models back off on the cold from my amateurish eyes. 

I hope so because I'm itching to trim the rest of my palms. I started, I couldn't help myself LOL.

Anyone have experience with cold damage arecas or white birds? Any tips?

I would not have trimmed anything dead off until the threat of frost was done. See above posts regarding frosts well into March around here. As long as they don’t get popped again, they will grow back fast with plenty of water and fertilizer. 

[ruskinPalms]

On 2/7/2022 at 9:26 AM, sonoranfans said:

Looks like most will be fine though you will have to tolerate the brown and/or reduced crown for a while.  Cold tolerance is about survival, those spears look intact.  As they get larger they become less susceptible to damage and death and they recover from damage more quicky.  Each person has to decide how often such a freeze will occur and whether they want to deal with damage every 3-5 years or perhaps more frequently.  Back to back winter defoliation can seriously weaken a palm and make it more susceptible to subsequent cold.  My (3) ~ 25' kentiopsis took good burn in 2018, all but the spear.  But about 2 years later you couldn't tell.  My ~ 25' archie alexanders also were completely fried but came back pretty quickly that year.  Once you get through a juvenile window they recover faster.  After I had lots of small crownshafts(10+) killed in 2010 @ 28F, I adapted my strategy and planned to protect my zone 10 palms differently, I put none out front to the north, almost all are planted in the back south of the house and close in with more dense planting and a wooded border.  Out front, the grass can still grow and my most susceptible palms are mor densely planted not enough sun to grow grass.  If you can grow grass, its not going to be a warm area in a radiative cold like this.

Again, reading your post about the damage you had in 2018 has me wondering if these Chambeyronia palms really are that good of an idea for our area long term. Time will tell I guess. Did you happen to have Satakentia in the ground in 2018? And if you did, how did it fare?

[sonoranfans]

2 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

Again, reading your post about the damage you had in 2018 has me wondering if these Chambeyronia palms really are that good of an idea for our area long term. Time will tell I guess. Did you happen to have Satakentia in the ground in 2018? And if you did, how did it fare?

I had no satakentia that year I put them in the following spring.  My satakentias are in warm spots, shaded and protected by house and palms so I don't have much concern for them they are not in the top canopy.  C. Oliviformis was definitely burned except the spear, but they do take a couple years to come back fully(~8 leaves is a full crown).   Archies(alex, myolensis, maxima) and royals were faster coming back with as much or more damage.  C. Macrocarpa was under those C. Oliviformis and archies, minimal burn and dypsis leptocheilos was mostly burned, spear intact.  For me that was one time in 8 years and now no winter damage for 3 more it looks like.   It gets better at heat trapping as it all grows in I think. If you can get some canopy and/ windbreak they all will do better.  That first summer I was glad to have my (3) B. Alfredii and copernicias.  As far as recovery, satakentia might be faster than C. Oliviformis as they are notably faster growing for me.  If you want to plant single palms out in the open grass, C Oliviformis might not be a good palm if you get a good freeze every other year.  

[ruskinPalms]

11 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

I had no satakentia that year I put them in the following spring.  My satakentias are in warm spots, shaded and protected by house and palms so I don't have much concern for them they are not in the top canopy.  C. Oliviformis was definitely burned except the spear, but they do take a couple years to come back fully(~8 leaves is a full crown).   Archies(alex, myolensis, maxima) and royals were faster coming back with as much or more damage.  C. Macrocarpa was under those C. Oliviformis and archies, minimal burn and dypsis leptocheilos was mostly burned, spear intact.  For me that was one time in 8 years and now no winter damage for 3 more it looks like.   It gets better at heat trapping as it all grows in I think. If you can get some canopy and/ windbreak they all will do better.  That first summer I was glad to have my (3) B. Alfredii and copernicias.  As far as recovery, satakentia might be faster than C. Oliviformis as they are notably faster growing for me.  If you want to plant single palms out in the open grass, C Oliviformis might not be a good palm if you get a good freeze every other year.  

I have a small C. macrocarpa that I’m keeping in a pot a little longer. I guess I’ll try it somewhere really protected since I already have it. I have a spot near my back porch that seems to be essentially freeze free as the heliconias there have never died since I’ve lived there from 2015 till now. The spot has some really crappy looking pot planted Adonidia there now that need to go. But it gets a lot of winter sun (south facing wall) so I’m not sure how C. macrocarpa would like that, shaded mostly during the summer months at least, plenty of moisture. I’m thinking my next experimental palm after the C. macrocarpa will be Satakentia. I think I’m going to skip C. oliviformis for now at least. 

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, ruskinPalms said:

I have a small C. macrocarpa that I’m keeping in a pot a little longer. I guess I’ll try it somewhere really protected since I already have it. I have a spot near my back porch that seems to be essentially freeze free as the heliconias there have never died since I’ve lived there from 2015 till now. The spot has some really crappy looking pot planted Adonidia there now that need to go. But it gets a lot of winter sun (south facing wall) so I’m not sure how C. macrocarpa would like that, shaded mostly during the summer months at least, plenty of moisture. I’m thinking my next experimental palm after the C. macrocarpa will be Satakentia. I think I’m going to skip C. oliviformis for now at least. 

I have all three here ( Chambeyronia macrocarpa, Satakentia liukiuensis, and Chambeyronia "Kentiopsis" oliviformis ) and the city has Chambeyronia and Satakentia planted in various locales throughout the city limits.  They've all be solid performers in regard to cool and cold tolerance thus far.  The Chambeyronia here tend to be in at least partially shaded areas.

When it finally warms up consistently, I may move a few of these to the new south side garden under some edge canopy to see how that works.

[Yunder Wækraus]

On 2/6/2022 at 2:54 PM, kinzyjr said:

In regard to the 1899 freeze (a.k.a The Valentine's Day Massacre), the full list of temperatures from NOAA is available here as a spreadsheet and as an image:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/15208-looking-back-at-the-great-us-freezes/&do=findComment&comment=961533

Too bad the two most interesting areas (in my opinion) were unsettled then: Barrier Island (from South Patrick Shores south to Sebastian Inlet) and the southern and SE shore of Lake Okeechobee (especially Pahokee). I'm willing to bet Indialantic was 2-6 degrees warmer, and I wouldn't be surprised if Pahokee was even warmer.

[Aceraceae]

On 2/7/2022 at 5:32 PM, Walt said:

Sebring is on higher ground. My brother lives in Sebring, just one block east of US 27. His lows run 5-6 degrees warmer than mine. But he's not in the warmest areas of Sebring. There are higher elevation areas.  When I get the chance I like to check out these two coconut palms to see how they fared over the winter: https://www.google.com/maps/@27.4709262,-81.4364348,3a,22.9y,99.19h,97.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHMgesTl1oe52h9M3NSHiug!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I also check these:https://www.google.com/maps/@27.4693047,-81.458759,3a,52.2y,78.61h,90.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spINtNGOjRxB8mRetKdtH9Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Clicking through the years on Street View you can see them looking better and worse, good in 09, bad after 2010, then good by 2016, but then damaged again after 2018, recovering quickly by the newest 2019 view. 

This years' event will likely have set them back once more. 

The other road (DeSoto) has a March 2021 view where things look cold or very dry. It also looks like they're turning DeSoto an Highlands Ave into 4 lanes. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.4711791,-81.4361588,3a,75y,154.84h,83.22t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s2jDOWtb6uxNCU3ROnvS21w!2e0!5s20210301T000000!7i16384!8i8192

[SubTropicRay]

I regret planting both my Chambeyronia macrocarpa and C. oliviformis (Kentiopsis).  Neither have handled the cold very well in my garden.  The next time central Florida gets a real freeze i.e. 1996, 2010, both of mine will become lifeless stumps. 

[Walt]

On 2/8/2022 at 11:15 PM, Aceraceae said:

Clicking through the years on Street View you can see them looking better and worse, good in 09, bad after 2010, then good by 2016, but then damaged again after 2018, recovering quickly by the newest 2019 view. 

This years' event will likely have set them back once more. 

The other road (DeSoto) has a March 2021 view where things look cold or very dry. It also looks like they're turning DeSoto an Highlands Ave into 4 lanes. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.4711791,-81.4361588,3a,75y,154.84h,83.22t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s2jDOWtb6uxNCU3ROnvS21w!2e0!5s20210301T000000!7i16384!8i8192

I've been monitoring these two coconut palms since before Google started with their street view.  The fact that they survived both January and again in December of 2010 is testament that their location is warmer than so much of inland Highlands County.  Here's Googles 2008 (lousy resolution) street view: https://www.google.com/maps/@27.4710298,-81.4364366,3a,26.5y,115.82h,96.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stPNZ2gBrGTVpC_Nkjo4etg!2e0!7i3328!8i1664

 

[NickJames]

A. I’m so over this winter. 
 

B. Forecasting needs to improve.

[TampaPalms]

20 minutes ago, NickJames said:

A. I’m so over this winter. 
 

B. Forecasting needs to improve.

Besides Sunday night which could be in the upper 30s low 40s the long-term outlook is looking more and more promising. I don't see, at least from what I can interpret, any severe cold spells through the end of the month. I hesitate to say but I think it's just about over statistically.

[NickJames]

13 minutes ago, TampaPalms said:

Besides Sunday night which could be in the upper 30s low 40s the long-term outlook is looking more and more promising. I don't see, at least from what I can interpret, any severe cold spells through the end of the month. I hesitate to say but I think it's just about over statistically.

I agree. It’s just crazy that I had frost last night when it wasn’t forecast. I was five degrees under forecast though thankfully above freezing. Luckily I have not trimmed anything at all so frost would mostly have settled on dead foliage anyways. I did kick in my temporary sprayers before bed and the areas and plants they sprayed were not able to form frost. 

[Matthew92]

Yeah, the forecast has been underdone here lately as well. The forecast low was 36 two nights ago and it ended up getting to 31. And this morning it got to 34. 

The dynamics of the system that is bringing the next cold spell this weekend is similar to the one that brought the coldest temps in FL two Sunday's ago. While the computer models aren't showing it as much (much as they didn't show such widespread cold temps with that last big event), based on what I'm seeing just with the set up with this- I predict freezing temps down to at least Ocala.