Jump to content

Another big Canary in London


UK_Palms
 Share

Recommended Posts

Bumping this to the next page due to reload times. New 2023 updated post incoming.

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Bumping this to the next page due to reload times. New 2023 updated post incoming. @Hortulanus Nice find. There are tens of thousands that size in London. This update I will post is crazy. So many big specimens now.

I find every single specimen to be worth watching. Especially because they alrady start to get chopped down. I know that they won't vanish, because of the amount of plants there already are but still...

Edited by Hortulanus
  • Like 1

2023 High 19.5°C Low -2.6°C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

London must have the best Phoenix Canariensis plantings/population above 45N as of 2023 right now...?

FmWjIX2XgAARvt7.thumb.jpg.d209e1acd0350e509de4df9bb8306b02.jpg

FmXHLSIXkAIq1_T.thumb.jpg.12b2b4dbc3d2f916827640eebca2ae21.jpg

244041259_Screenshot2023-01-13at19_39_24.thumb.png.ec1954186a6873aa59d1313564f317cd.png

299323283_10159025681197201_7038383923920675303_n.thumb.jpg.6dd420383ee6582166e8a54b26bca528.jpg

1352105572_Screenshot2023-01-14at04_34_12.thumb.png.a4a1a113efa171c15d5145af450ff3ba.png

739456747_thumbnail_image0-2023-01-15T174817_259.thumb.jpg.2fee6aa51e4ad44f70c5aaa04acead29.jpg

604834071_thumbnail_image0-2023-01-15T180956_987.thumb.jpg.e6ff9274f527342a97b60a88f1726581.jpg

1507085866_Screenshot2023-01-15at16_24_54.thumb.png.75dd16370c3afa2d105b6a6657fc4e08.png

304767525_10159069400372201_8111905716567381836_n.thumb.jpg.7a3e6c08badf5a988582c374d5f8292c.jpg

304851176_10159069400262201_1301422183771763486_n.thumb.jpg.553415e395d4e43eb62176982c1e0e40.jpg

270068111_thumbnail_image0-2023-01-15T180511_951.thumb.jpg.6ba200a21493b0533460e63b979dd8ac.jpg

1942665142_Screenshot2023-01-13at18_54_33.thumb.png.f72b689957adda106d42b0802bd4ae65.png

299554182_10159027132737201_2076862827356920013_n.thumb.jpg.e0835e64e03e9286306ffe2de618730c.jpg

1305428128_thumbnail_image2(40).thumb.jpg.cc38165b44df01690323eb6c1612c08e.jpg

130102636_thumbnail_image1-2023-01-15T180504_119.thumb.jpg.d8d77c5e38dbe0c5994b8b27d0384607.jpg

447497626_Screenshot2023-01-14at04_29_25.thumb.png.edc2b27e8a92dc1560078161fa113178.png

299427164_10159025681232201_1303782702890581898_n.thumb.jpg.4b93616e0a288ca70e2a5ace5924df79.jpg

307460373_10159086652252201_6635786749930547028_n.thumb.jpg.a76d92b396798d9c75559a7348bc3e76.jpg

1511870627_306855165_10159086668227201_3628584015190568170_n(2).thumb.jpg.0fd68339a69d1430d5d1d70ba0dc4c09.jpg

307702946_10159086653957201_8920400196904337705_n.thumb.jpg.1e450b70bf6a7ce040334d0575fb96bd.jpg

1442848824_308133837_10159086654682201_8160773061498246746_n(1).thumb.jpg.5fe75a8c72fd6f98dfda954dbfb38ae7.jpg

308189323_10159086654112201_2523896255477027829_n.thumb.jpg.ae32cb1206491a11fb390edd3de76a9e.jpg

1362783015_thumbnail_image1-2023-01-15T174852_638.thumb.jpg.d1c63c2da604e2017d27e2220ee77aa4.jpg

1267877707_Screenshot2023-01-13at19_10_57.thumb.png.e6513ab5b18d53a0955d1eb505bf51b2.png

750930028_Screenshot2023-01-13at18_57_32.thumb.png.d8420da2df9949d0b214bda8f430fbde.png

1097022241_Screenshot2023-01-13at20_35_25.thumb.png.abd09d3bd57743b1a88d4e5263fede9f.png

FmYPEvwXEBcVks2.thumb.jpg.9cd1e52bbad25d7fd531c24107745ec5.jpg

2133983840_thumbnail_image1-2023-01-15T181005_871.thumb.jpg.ad4eb65805171b64ddf387cdad00f12d.jpg

947506797_Screenshot2023-01-13at20_00_33.thumb.png.12fc0adcb3e37df87ac73bdf24851953.png

2145755440_Screenshot2023-01-14at04_14_08.thumb.png.83ddc7b2cdc613a95c659af98053eee3.png

103452564_Screenshot2023-01-13at20_14_58.thumb.png.55a3c70cb5339a668b3545f0bf26a386.png

1112167257_thumbnail_image1-2023-01-15T174843_156.thumb.jpg.10b812fa9944b758d2eaf4b74c471aef.jpg

2121536605_thumbnail_image0-2023-01-15T174836_772.thumb.jpg.fcadd7586109d76f12b8ff430eab264e.jpg

927665195_thumbnail_image1-2023-01-15T174826_029.thumb.jpg.2d6d8361b06cf6d19feb8bb8f492d7b2.jpg

1254173295_Screenshot2023-01-15at17_27_55.thumb.png.f63f1262c1d6bd644ae50a91a69c0fb3.png

1154275979_Screenshot2023-01-14at04_21_48.thumb.png.5746c61c0ccfc01dfab699e4d4cba547.png

1626484120_Screenshot2023-01-15at16_33_01.thumb.png.182042fc552368438b49616c72e2bb0d.png

1776468782_thumbnail_image3(12).thumb.jpg.e7dec3edf863fdf8965c9e01e95adefc.jpg

518198003_thumbnail_image0-2023-01-15T180629_523.thumb.jpg.63885b965a7265a54183d84c06b40b14.jpg

235968769_Screenshot2023-01-15at18_51_52.thumb.png.8bf254bb08419d32098434fa22170af8.png

1504814550_Screenshot2023-01-15at16_52_06.thumb.png.bc442c0fd2563a3669fd55ad5c6cfe8a.png

1379858260_Screenshot2023-01-15at16_47_33.thumb.png.6a94a9ca02ef0d61aab4812b421af026.png

306948987_10159086652557201_2762141754322020826_n.thumb.jpg.c43ad54375c0146e7982928a842b308d.jpg

338808341_thumbnail_image1-2023-01-15T205823_935.thumb.jpg.4290faaf5907b0e31752a787980fe178.jpg

141474353_Screenshot2023-01-15at20_05_06.thumb.png.6a6024c8aad3397786ef92e3fcafea95.png

328736448_Screenshot2023-01-15at17_14_22.thumb.png.f99005f918a4dfff28b1114ef8595392.png

507626422_thumbnail_image1-2023-01-15T210335_843.thumb.jpg.f2d01a821d915520ca3f924ab9159cc6.jpg

1298809520_Screenshot2023-01-16at00_10_25.thumb.png.6e2b3e194b3d3a0c2177b191abef58bf.png

1401350674_Screenshot2023-01-15at16_28_46.thumb.png.83944f23673dfb658b115a30dd4beca4.png

2088997844_Screenshot2023-01-15at20_38_48.thumb.png.f304f1f79ec282da36570ec529bd088e.png

FdqFjGeX0AA7apH-1.jpg.20c487e7a24922f210a40cc7b92d3386.jpg

1377710016_Screenshot2023-01-15at20_44_34.thumb.png.01b169593c3eef7a49f6775c5eee593b.png

562690194_Screenshot2023-01-15at20_00_31.thumb.png.27a37e919d832dd919536b0a75eebc7d.png

1371432466_Screenshot2023-01-15at18_57_12.thumb.png.f96b43cecd747ebb73e784805ae95b0f.png

773480965_Screenshot2023-01-13at20_39_21.thumb.png.183e8f95b624e7cdb347a45d2dadb179.png

2067778562_thumbnail_image0-2023-01-15T210328_934.thumb.jpg.5640a759f7056069f2e0b7525a0df524.jpg

1170074381_thumbnail_image2(41).thumb.jpg.8ef822a513f4ff2b9c542922b62e1ee2.jpg

1945723508_Screenshot2023-01-15at17_07_46.thumb.png.38685827bff79bb24c1b53792297c4ef.png

575196625_Screenshot2023-01-13at20_24_10.thumb.png.83dbc72efc290e0efba7f7899c15c3cd.png

473414425_Screenshot2023-01-15at19_03_41.thumb.png.41568cc35e5dcf1cfabb3f2ed7518537.png

317845393_10159274795007201_3382190789483387332_n.thumb.jpg.5d3f5ce57edc080d81a6da10e3469244.jpg

1212900266_Screenshot2023-01-15at16_37_36.thumb.png.b7a0744c113c87ca7d258594341c7388.png

2030132169_Screenshot2023-01-15at17_29_21.thumb.png.92e5659f7a91bbcdf890852938b739f4.png

307695126_10159086652262201_4492988102051627120_n.thumb.jpg.4917181158d2a4bb0eccddba60cbbad2.jpg

307695126_10159086652262201_4492988102051627120_n.thumb.jpg.4917181158d2a4bb0eccddba60cbbad2.jpg

595121542_307640366_10159086655137201_8279863136489370923_n(1).thumb.jpg.a7244fde64b2441a68105f6dceaa6455.jpg

308789452_10159086669477201_4376199098794113953_n.thumb.jpg.5e4982186514fb06eb01b9f2458a5136.jpg

352924849_Screenshot2023-01-15at19_25_22.thumb.png.165dfebd3d5b51dd5c0615956d9cf6c3.png

839646073_Screenshot2023-01-15at19_56_36.thumb.png.883d041f1bc90e049477d2d85beef79b.png

1376872329_Screenshot2023-01-15at21_11_10.thumb.png.68c2f1091d0799904e1d65891163be04.png

1537592070_thumbnail_image0-2023-01-15T210853_096.thumb.jpg.3a57a3bf001be19474b1848bdb662d43.jpg

35836706_Screenshot2023-01-15at17_16_39.thumb.png.12a5a1d2fcbb8d27b322a09cab986d35.png

32759402_Screenshot2023-01-15at20_08_05.thumb.png.b905ba5bf7418c5aef692a15b2ea79be.png

1760325021_Screenshot2023-01-15at17_22_11.thumb.png.9d0755121bbc83f775f9df4d901aec99.png

1510409092_Screenshot2023-01-15at17_01_45.thumb.png.3aa029c1867ea281b3e8c39adbc7bd4c.png

811013476_Screenshot2023-01-15at17_26_12.thumb.png.2a5b78e56672f0fad69bbd6433fc2ce8.png

302621669_10159058543032201_6661188341645139417_n.thumb.jpg.33feca36cb69b8f211897ef6d742256d.jpg

304191614_10159058543507201_1776973259678314553_n.thumb.jpg.8b675c7b870f79a09c43b5ca38506dcb.jpg

574657689_Screenshot2023-01-15at18_47_55.thumb.png.8fa2414780fa17e51c6c6f5a5f4fae57.png

1357291086_Screenshot2023-01-15at18_49_07.thumb.png.dcdb0d3722c8b4da63efb88ef9949d9c.png

197021671_Screenshot2023-01-15at20_31_06.thumb.png.aa6d78af43160b43d59b9456528116f1.png

904176001_Screenshot2022-12-31at19_17_48.thumb.png.95f0257dc804082a899448043fd583c9.png

788264404_thumbnail_image1-2023-01-15T210859_310.thumb.jpg.c4cd9ccc18d8c93335753ff00b3ac1f4.jpg

1254345370_Screenshot2023-01-15at19_07_01.thumb.png.6447371caedaeb776bc119d6367f366d.png

336196514_Screenshot2023-01-15at23_45_04.thumb.png.716d9d19b9be625e34aa2cc6aa4ee094.png

1315801083_Screenshot2023-01-15at17_11_20.thumb.png.262bc34e18cffa6b51c22aab63ac8e78.png

1139144441_Screenshot2023-01-15at16_54_45.thumb.png.211218bda1935a7217d260a7d85bbd84.png

1024622906_Screenshot2023-01-15at19_00_13.thumb.png.37f8dd57e36da2d976923ae3ab8409ae.png

 

I have only posted the stuff that has been updated over the past 12 months or so, meaning that many of them aren't shown. Some of the biggest ones in London are in back yards, which aren't shown in this update.

Edited by UK_Palms
  • Like 6

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They are spectacular.  I wish mine grew like this but it seems to be the most stubborn CIDP in the whole Manchester area from what I can tell.  Looks like a few of these are recent plantings at large sizes too, so some developers have started to take note that they can be grown reliably.

Although to be technical I think there are better/more established/more prolific CIDP populations above 45ºN - the north Atlantic coast of France, Channel Islands, Italian Lakes (including Ticino in Switzerland) come to mind - however London certainly has the best resident CIDP population above 50ºN.  Arguments could be made about Cornwall and Devon I suppose - Torquay probably takes the UK's CIDP cake.

Manchester, Lancashire, England

53.4ºN, 2.2ºW, 65m AMSL

Köppen climate Cfb | USDA hardiness zone 9a

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How come Butia's aren't as common? You get about 4 more degrees of extra hardiness and they look equally tropical and the smaller size is also better for smaller gardens. 

Edit: Forgot to mention the potential for edible fruits.. and also having color variety (green and blue/grey versions).  

Edited by Zeni
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Ryland said:

They are spectacular.  I wish mine grew like this but it seems to be the most stubborn CIDP in the whole Manchester area from what I can tell.  Looks like a few of these are recent plantings at large sizes too, so some developers have started to take note that they can be grown reliably.

Although to be technical I think there are better/more established/more prolific CIDP populations above 45ºN - the north Atlantic coast of France, Channel Islands, Italian Lakes (including Ticino in Switzerland) come to mind - however London certainly has the best resident CIDP population above 50ºN.  Arguments could be made about Cornwall and Devon I suppose - Torquay probably takes the UK's CIDP cake.

There aren't many big plantings at all in London. If you go back on street view you will see that they are pretty much all older ones that were planted small say 15-20 years ago. I only know of 2 big ones that were planted in London, out of say the 500+ that I know about, or have posted on here. So about 0.1% of them are planted big.

The Channel Islands may have a few bigger, older CIDP's on Guernsey and Jersey, but they don't have the sheer concentration and number of large specimens as London. You could spend an hour in London and see perhaps 10 specimens over 30 foot in height nowadays and countless smaller specimens, if you know where to look.

La Rochelle on the west coast of France is at 46N and doesn't appear to have that many CIDP's. Like they've got a few decent ones, but nothing on the level of London, or Cornwall or many places on the south coast of England. Ticino in Switzerland is also at 46N and while they have some decent CIDP's, there aren't that many and not as big as London either.

I'll await to see if anyone can post some big ones from those locations, or multiple decent specimens, as opposed to just one or two (which may have been planted big) in western France or the Italian/Swiss lakes. Anywhere else above 45N even. Given the naturalised/self seeding nature in London as well, that also gives them the edge over those other places too.

 

47 minutes ago, Zeni said:

How come Butia's aren't as common? You get about 4 more degrees of extra hardiness and they look equally tropical and the smaller size is also better for smaller gardens. 

Edit: Forgot to mention the potential for edible fruits.. and also having color variety (green and blue/grey versions).  

There are quite a few big, decent Butia's in London and I have posted them many times. However they are much rarer to get, more expensive and also much slower growing. Clearly Phoenix Canariensis is the easier and cheaper option, which is why it is so much more common. I also think mature CIDP provides more instant impact as well and looks more ornamental.

Here are some of the London ones...

751389221_thumbnail_image0-2023-01-16T192004_550.thumb.jpg.05c9c4d9452c85296673fbe7ca698104.jpg

705633188_thumbnail_image0-2023-01-16T191610_324.thumb.jpg.f16ef31ed7fbf3230b1d51573dfd2b65.jpg

998060118_Screenshot2023-01-16at19_03_30.thumb.png.6790b66d68baf46aecfeecffbd693047.png

1406388797_thumbnail_image1-2023-01-16T191624_908.thumb.jpg.5fa3f3e004527bec4f0c186e0eabd3a5.jpg

714635075_Screenshot2023-01-16at18_59_36.thumb.png.f2a6e2c78c9cfd6d46d7f54f16751f3f.png

1480218352_thumbnail_image1-2023-01-16T192011_401.thumb.jpg.bf6300f8aa4343a1abb3500e3ed4fb6c.jpg

  • Like 4

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@UK_Palms

True, they exist here and there, but seem to be substantially less common, sadly. I have noticed from exotic plant sellers in my area also don't sell that many small Butia's, yet small CIDPs seem to be commonly available (likewise with less hardy Washingtonias). I wish they start producing Butia's more in mass for the Western European market over CIDPs and Washies. There must be a catch to this, likely Butia's are more difficult to grow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Zeni said:

@UK_Palms

True, they exist here and there, but seem to be substantially less common, sadly. I have noticed from exotic plant sellers in my area also don't sell that many small Butia's, yet small CIDPs seem to be commonly available (likewise with less hardy Washingtonias). I wish they start producing Butia's more in mass for the Western European market over CIDPs and Washies. There must be a catch to this, likely Butia's are more difficult to grow.

At least for London it doesn't matter as much as Washingtonia and phoenix canariensis are fully hardy here and since they are cheaper more garden centers sell them and more people buy them. Butias are still nice palms though however personally I prefer the look of phoenix canariensis and Washingtonia. It would nice if large Rhopalostylis, syagrus and howea forsteriana were more commonly sold here since they do well in the warmer parts of London. Phoenix theophrasti, dactylifera, Sylvesteris, reclinata and rupicola should be sold more here since they do well in warm parts of the UK except dactylifera due to humidity they only seem to do ok in London.

Edited by Foxpalms
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Butias are still nice palms though however personally I prefer the look of phoenix canariensis and Washingtonia.

Hmm, for me it is the other way around. Especially when pruned nicely I like Butias a lot more. Issue I see with CIDPs is the size for most private gardens (CIDPs are nice for parks or as street palms, but IMO overtake smaller gardens) and with Washies the thorns and eventually difficulty pruning when they survive for over a decade in the ground.

Just my two cents.

Anyhow, continue with the nice pictures from London. 😀

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I get the idea of your theme now. You all should be growing King & Queen (British theme) palms too. Looks like at the very least Queens would be a contender there.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

I think I get the idea of your theme now. You all should be growing King & Queen (British theme) palms too. Looks like at the very least Queens would be a contender there.

Unlike the USA though where loads of queen's can be imported from within the US from Florida, Texas, California, Arizona and Hawaii the palm tree nurseries and garden centers here have to import them from another country so they are more expensive and not that commonly sold, however I have seen quite a few places stock queen's this year. Queen's are a very easy palm here they just need lots of water in the summer and fertilizer and very good drainage in the winter don't recommend them for people with slow draining soil the UK they hate wet cold roots. Personally I think that's why some people fail with them not giving them sufficient drainage and just sticking them in their garden soil. Queen palms are also pretty hardy so they should be ok in the warmer 9a parts here too.  Archontophoenix do well in Cornwall and central London and there's also one on the south coast. Again not a commonly palm sold here but it's not too hard to get either. I have archontophoenix cunninghamiana planted in ground, which is in its second winter but this year I might plant out my Alexandrae, myolensis, cunninghamiana var Illawarra and Maxima I also have some purperea and tuckeri seeds but they haven't geminated yet. Unfortunately at the moment won't be able to finish the royal theme! since I doubt royal palms will survive the winter here but who knows in 20 years time according to the BBC some climate studies suggest mangos will be able to grow in Kensington london in 2050 which would likely mean royals palms as well.  The winters and summers are definitely warmer on average here than they used to be which I'm not complaining about. Christchurch new Zealand for example used to be warmer than London however in some recent years it was warmer in central London and it will be interesting to compare their summer averages this year to ours. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

There aren't many big plantings at all in London. If you go back on street view you will see that they are pretty much all older ones that were planted small say 15-20 years ago. I only know of 2 big ones that were planted in London, out of say the 500+ that I know about, or have posted on here. So about 0.1% of them are planted big.

The Channel Islands may have a few bigger, older CIDP's on Guernsey and Jersey, but they don't have the sheer concentration and number of large specimens as London. You could spend an hour in London and see perhaps 10 specimens over 30 foot in height nowadays and countless smaller specimens, if you know where to look.

La Rochelle on the west coast of France is at 46N and doesn't appear to have that many CIDP's. Like they've got a few decent ones, but nothing on the level of London, or Cornwall or many places on the south coast of England. Ticino in Switzerland is also at 46N and while they have some decent CIDP's, there aren't that many and not as big as London either.

I'll await to see if anyone can post some big ones from those locations, or multiple decent specimens, as opposed to just one or two (which may have been planted big) in western France or the Italian/Swiss lakes. Anywhere else above 45N even. Given the naturalised/self seeding nature in London as well, that also gives them the edge over those other places too.

I agree completely about there not many big plantings - by far most of these CIDPs have grown up in London - what I was saying is it's encouraging to see a few plantings of larger trees starting to occur too - those on Malvern Close for instance look like more recent installations.  There was also that weird installation of a bunch of mature Washingtonia in a park a couple years ago - I wonder how they have fared.

Yeah, some of these other locations can be quite hit and miss - I doubt any would have the quantity in terms of pure numbers as London, but there is nothing like the population density or cities of 10 million planting CIDPs en mass.  There is probably a scientific way to measure it but not something I'd have the energy for!  In any case I'd argue the density of established CIDPs per population is similar or maybe even higher in a few areas, though much smaller bits of land (especially the narrow villages of the Italian lakes).

France is quite hit and miss - they are clearly more popular in some areas than others.  Have a look at the western side of Brest in satellite imagery, they are exceedingly common, such as these:

image.thumb.png.d15ace08efbc26a57bd48f0e85103d0d.pngimage.thumb.png.3060117c402e8be812d81e5dbb2b788c.png

Some nice public plantings in Royan:

image.thumb.png.747636ca157e8cd333e1a34967e6b449.png

As for the Italian lakes, bear in mind the population and habitable land area is very small, but they do have some big, long-established ones in some of the old lakeside villages.  They are pretty common there but not as much as the Trachycarpus groves which are a special sight in themselves (they have in fact naturalised and spread through the forests as an invasive species).

You can count a fair few of them in this satellite imagery of Lugano - I think I see 9, a few of them mature:

image.thumb.png.ed57eff7a11642a539076732bfdc5d10.png

One of those from the above in street view - I think this combination of lake, palm trees, and mountains is really spectacular:

image.thumb.png.6a87ba59709030f09751de53016e4bd9.png

There are a little younger, in Menagio:

image.thumb.png.e8e783304856f5bda52e754a75c3d9e6.png

Then these few are from my own photographs from previous trips to Ticino:

image.thumb.jpeg.680fe8db3e7cea18c409e40019ab3c05.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.f29708c72ede124bacb5e60826c2ccee.jpeg

So I think many of these locations have long-established, common CIDPs though for sure all are much smaller towns than London.  I have no doubt that the proliferation of CIDPs in London in the last decade or two, and their easy availability and reliability means London probably has more in overall numbers than any other town/city north of the 45th parallel.

 

  • Like 3

Manchester, Lancashire, England

53.4ºN, 2.2ºW, 65m AMSL

Köppen climate Cfb | USDA hardiness zone 9a

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I prefer the London CIDPs. Probably because it's the more exciting thing but also because it really makes a city look better within all the dark walls. It's amazing how many there are. The looks remind me a bit of the German settled cities in the cooler parts of Chile. I imagine that's how the London ones are going to look like in a few years. vdv1.thumb.PNG.5d1fe84e0601a4b9379430f7e740121c.PNG

I agree a lot more other palms should be more widely available around Western Europe. But as far as I've noticed in Italy for example other species are also not as wideley available as CIDPs or Washies for example. You don't see much in normal stores there as well. While in California it seems to be the pure abundance of palm availability. In reliable online shops here there are all kinds of palms beside the common ones, but they are not just expensive but are getting MORE expensive even just Trachys or CIDP because exotic gardening seems to become a trend. Also some people who are not into palm trees yet sometimes ask me about it and get interested but when they hear how much any "larger" specimen of any species costs they opt out.

With the CIDPs in Swiss I know for sure that some of them have been planted as large specimens. I also know that they've had way colder temperatures there than a lot of parts in London in the past. Some have been popping up out of nowwhere when we drove down to Italy along the shores of the lakes several years. There are also videos of some being installed:

 

 

Edited by Hortulanus
  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1

2023 High 19.5°C Low -2.6°C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does anybody know what's up with these CIDPs in Kew Gardens? I've visited Kew twice and I was surprised how little palm variety they've planted outside the green houses. I took these pictures at end of October 2017. Excuse the quality as it was already late afternoon when I took them. I drove to Kew directly from Düsseldorf and visited it right away. They must be a lot bigger now:

DSCN3196.thumb.JPG.fe52a267d6415344298ffb584de8ee7e.JPG

DSCN3197.thumb.JPG.9c1d05ff9f70d16fbad6cab1de133957.JPG

DSCN3198.thumb.JPG.b958710452ce96302769326fd86c072f.JPG

Edited by Hortulanus
  • Upvote 1

2023 High 19.5°C Low -2.6°C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Hortulanus said:

Does anybody know what's up with these CIDPs in Kew Gardens? I've visited Kew twice and I was surprised how little palm variety they've planted outside the green houses. I took these pictures at end of October 2017. Excuse the quality as it was already late afternoon when I took them. I drove to Kew directly from Düsseldorf and visited it right away. They must be a lot bigger now:

DSCN3196.thumb.JPG.fe52a267d6415344298ffb584de8ee7e.JPG

DSCN3197.thumb.JPG.9c1d05ff9f70d16fbad6cab1de133957.JPG

DSCN3198.thumb.JPG.b958710452ce96302769326fd86c072f.JPG

They have a few CIDP and Washingtonia planted outside at Kew gardens I might visit there again soon and take some photos since it's only a few miles away. There aren't any particularly big CIDPS there however they are larger than the ones in your photos.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

With the CIDPs in Swiss I know for sure that some of them have been planted as large specimens. I also know that they've had way colder temperatures there than a lot of parts in London in the past. Some have been popping up out of nowwhere when we drove down to Italy along the shores of the lakes several years.

This is true, that it is becoming more popular to plant large specimens in these areas.  So when you go there, it can be a mix, but a lot of the trees are very very old and have survived to maturity from small plantings too.  There are some videos around showing planting of large Jubaea and some Parajubaea (not as large) too.  Not to distract too much from the topic but it is worth showing this:

image.thumb.jpeg.7cb005f668147c10ba3d2759684b27db.jpeg

They have created some really lovely gardens in a great setting around these lakes.

I agree @Hortulanus about London and hope as well that it is looking like that photo from Chile in a few years to come!  It will really have a more prominent reputation for its palms among the general public then.

  • Like 1

Manchester, Lancashire, England

53.4ºN, 2.2ºW, 65m AMSL

Köppen climate Cfb | USDA hardiness zone 9a

Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, Ryland said:

I agree @Hortulanus about London and hope as well that it is looking like that photo from Chile in a few years to come!  It will really have a more prominent reputation for its palms among the general public then.

I think lots of people mix up the UK climate as a whole and portray that as London's climate. Many people are under the impression that London is rainy but it's the driest city in the UK and one of the drier cities in Europe. I also find it's the place in the UK with the lowest humidity. When London starts to look like LA with the palms escpially with the predicted hotter summers in the foreseeable future I'm sure that false stigma will change. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

I think lots of people mix up the UK climate as a whole and portray that as London's climate. Many people are under the impression that London is rainy but it's the driest city in the UK and one of the drier cities in Europe. I also find it's the place in the UK with the lowest humidity. When London starts to look like LA with the palms escpially with the predicted hotter summers in the foreseeable future I'm sure that false stigma will change. 

Yes well but even most Mediterranean cities don't look like LA or have a similar climate. LA is at a very low latitude and next to deserts plus it's a much more urbanised area. London's and especially central London's climate is its own thing. UK climate is very diverse I know that but the UK will stay a big island in the Atlantic ocean with mostly Western winds. The climate is going to change towards warmer, hotter, drier but we're not going to have a different geology. London might be more like the Bay Area or the drier parts of it like San Jose for example. At the same time climate change is not stopping for Chile. If you observe their summers in the cooler, greener regions they also become hotter and drier. Matter of fact, if you drive around those places with StreetView you already see it on some pictures.

2023 High 19.5°C Low -2.6°C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

They have a few CIDP and Washingtonia planted outside at Kew gardens I might visit there again soon and take some photos since it's only a few miles away. There aren't any particularly big CIDPS there however they are larger than the ones in your photos.

Really? Where? I haven't seen them while I was there. But there were many construction works going on at the time, maybe I missed something. I'd love to see how the CIDPs have grown in the mean time, but right now travelling to the UK is not very attractive. Might go there again sometime in the future.

2023 High 19.5°C Low -2.6°C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

Yes well but even most Mediterranean cities don't look like LA or have a similar climate. LA is at a very low latitude and next to deserts plus it's a much more urbanised area. London's and especially central London's climate is its own thing. UK climate is very diverse I know that but the UK will stay a big island in the Atlantic ocean with mostly Western winds. The climate is going to change towards warmer, hotter, drier but we're not going to have a different geology. London might be more like the Bay Area or the drier parts of it like San Jose for example. At the same time climate change is not stopping for Chile. If you observe their summers in the cooler, greener regions they also become hotter and drier. Matter of fact, if you drive around those places with StreetView you already see it on some pictures.

In terms of all the Washingtonia and phoenix not the climate. I don't expect Coconuts to be getting zone pushed in London anytime soon or to have the same climate as LA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

Really? Where? I haven't seen them while I was there. But there were many construction works going on at the time, maybe I missed something. I'd love to see how the CIDPs have grown in the mean time, but right now travelling to the UK is not very attractive. Might go there again sometime in the future.

Have you visited the gardens in Cornwall and ventnor? There's quite a few Washingtonia and canary island date palms but I know they planted lots only a few years ago.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Have you visited the gardens in Cornwall and ventnor? There's quite a few Washingtonia and canary island date palms but I know they planted lots only a few years ago.

No the gardens but I've been to Cornwall. I've seen some nice plantings along the roads and the coast. Sometimes even on roundabouts.

2023 High 19.5°C Low -2.6°C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

In terms of all the Washingtonia and phoenix not the climate. I don't expect Coconuts to be getting zone pushed in London anytime soon or to have the same climate as LA.

I thought this was in reference to my comparison with the cooler parts of Chile.

2023 High 19.5°C Low -2.6°C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

No the gardens but I've been to Cornwall. I've seen some nice plantings along the roads and the coast. Sometimes even on roundabouts.

Some of the gardens there have howea forsteriana archontophoenix, parajubaea cocoides, Rhopalostylis sapida, Juania australis, syagrus romanzoffianana planted out and much more the Scilly isles are also a very nice place and the tresco abbey gardens there as well.  Some photos from Cornwall and the Scilly isles I'm not sure if you have seen the posts I made about visiting there during the summer.

Screenshot_20230118-161949152 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230118-162102203 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230118-162130542 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230118-162323144 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230118-162347173 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230118-162621206 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230118-162811105 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230118-163003964 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230118-163153344 (1).jpg

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

Really? Where? I haven't seen them while I was there. But there were many construction works going on at the time, maybe I missed something. I'd love to see how the CIDPs have grown in the mean time, but right now travelling to the UK is not very attractive. Might go there again sometime in the future.

I last visited Kew in September 2020 and posted a thread on here about the palms in the glasshouses and growing outside. If you search for the thread, you should find it, since it’s probably the most recent Kew thread on here still. It doesn’t show the Washingtonia however, which were planted the following year in early 2021.

There are quite a fair few CIDP’s growing out in the open though, including at the Mediterranean rock garden, which is very exposed and way out in the open. The Chamaerops Humilis are particularly impressive there. The gardens in general are in a bit of a frost hollow though and are one of the colder parts of the city in winter. The UHI is way less pronounced there. 

These photos I took at Kew are over 2 years old now too, so they will be bigger. I will probably visit again this coming summer and provide a detailed update. The CIDP likely took a bit of damage during the December freeze due to how exposed they are. Maybe down to -6C / 21F there and 36 hours below freezing. Probably just a bit of bronzing to the fronds though. Nothing major.

B0C1CE8B-8C86-4DE4-BC11-13E21D3546D9.thumb.jpeg.58fa54cf4e889db67dd82913dcf37639.jpeg

237E24C2-8FF8-494B-A28D-1CEA0300FBA6.thumb.jpeg.f403464c0cee0483b5337d7afff57e89.jpeg

7CA31A3E-59FF-46C1-A571-D13ED7CB3239.thumb.jpeg.a2f7eef0cf2814bc79cc43c257679391.jpeg

3710030D-0E4F-4511-9646-54F43FF60233.thumb.jpeg.acef7c8f6743650ee61b2edbf9c89cdd.jpeg

03DD4A47-21F6-478E-9F5D-E49F6925B18C.thumb.jpeg.7c07bf91c178a272e57cb6c76bdef441.jpeg

F2ABE0E6-1A08-439E-BE38-62D2728E6C8D.thumb.jpeg.255c3a6cf18d39c2c79a6596d726656c.jpeg

06F4B92D-4556-4737-AEFB-0CAB3A45F1A3.thumb.jpeg.48da2b22fcced72aacddf50fcd6ce0e4.jpeg

42D63284-F022-42EE-A392-07E09104C0CB.thumb.jpeg.f88dbbc1fccd5ed547af59303faf3a2f.jpeg

4F6CC2C8-B633-4C41-B76A-F3642E1A7672.thumb.jpeg.2176f944966868d5595cdd4c9743dcc9.jpeg

3279E3C6-A2FE-4F50-AAE5-D3308518808F.thumb.jpeg.9c7b3501b5b51d3406737cca59fe66a0.jpeg
 

There was probably about 10 separate CIDP’s growing outdoors at Kew on my last visit, although they may have added even more since, given how well they have done in London. They have added smaller Washingtonia, so they probably have added other stuff too.

  • Like 3
  • Upvote 1

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did have photos of the palms at Kew from March 2022 but it's on my other phone.  I will see if I can find them. I also missed some of them since I spent most of the time in the glass houses.

Edited by Foxpalms
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

I last visited Kew in September 2020 and posted a thread on here about the palms in the glasshouses and growing outside. If you search for the thread, you should find it, since it’s probably the most recent Kew thread on here still. It doesn’t show the Washingtonia however, which were planted the following year in early 2021.

There are quite a fair few CIDP’s growing out in the open though, including at the Mediterranean rock garden, which is very exposed and way out in the open. The Chamaerops Humilis are particularly impressive there. The gardens in general are in a bit of a frost hollow though and are one of the colder parts of the city in winter. The UHI is way less pronounced there. 

These photos I took at Kew are over 2 years old now too, so they will be bigger. I will probably visit again this coming summer and provide a detailed update. The CIDP likely took a bit of damage during the December freeze due to how exposed they are. Maybe down to -6C / 21F there and 36 hours below freezing. Probably just a bit of bronzing to the fronds though. Nothing major.

B0C1CE8B-8C86-4DE4-BC11-13E21D3546D9.thumb.jpeg.58fa54cf4e889db67dd82913dcf37639.jpeg

237E24C2-8FF8-494B-A28D-1CEA0300FBA6.thumb.jpeg.f403464c0cee0483b5337d7afff57e89.jpeg

7CA31A3E-59FF-46C1-A571-D13ED7CB3239.thumb.jpeg.a2f7eef0cf2814bc79cc43c257679391.jpeg

3710030D-0E4F-4511-9646-54F43FF60233.thumb.jpeg.acef7c8f6743650ee61b2edbf9c89cdd.jpeg

03DD4A47-21F6-478E-9F5D-E49F6925B18C.thumb.jpeg.7c07bf91c178a272e57cb6c76bdef441.jpeg

F2ABE0E6-1A08-439E-BE38-62D2728E6C8D.thumb.jpeg.255c3a6cf18d39c2c79a6596d726656c.jpeg

06F4B92D-4556-4737-AEFB-0CAB3A45F1A3.thumb.jpeg.48da2b22fcced72aacddf50fcd6ce0e4.jpeg

42D63284-F022-42EE-A392-07E09104C0CB.thumb.jpeg.f88dbbc1fccd5ed547af59303faf3a2f.jpeg

4F6CC2C8-B633-4C41-B76A-F3642E1A7672.thumb.jpeg.2176f944966868d5595cdd4c9743dcc9.jpeg

3279E3C6-A2FE-4F50-AAE5-D3308518808F.thumb.jpeg.9c7b3501b5b51d3406737cca59fe66a0.jpeg
 

There was probably about 10 separate CIDP’s growing outdoors at Kew on my last visit, although they may have added even more since, given how well they have done in London. They have added smaller Washingtonia, so they probably have added other stuff too.

Wow thank you! Crazy how different the climate is in Kew, because it's still surrounded by a lot of urbanised area. I really think Kew could use more open areas to plant things out. But maybe they'll do it in the future. Too many unused areas.

Edited by Hortulanus

2023 High 19.5°C Low -2.6°C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

I did have photos of the palms at Kew from March 2022 but it's on my other phone.  I will see if I can find them. I also missed some of them since I spent most of the time in the glass houses.

Thank you. Yes I was surprised because Jubaea chilensis was also growing in the glass house.

2023 High 19.5°C Low -2.6°C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Some of the gardens there have howea forsteriana archontophoenix, parajubaea cocoides, Rhopalostylis sapida, Juania australis, syagrus romanzoffianana planted out and much more the Scilly isles are also a very nice place and the tresco abbey gardens there as well.  Some photos from Cornwall and the Scilly isles I'm not sure if you have seen the posts I made about visiting there during the summer.

Screenshot_20230118-161949152 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230118-162102203 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230118-162130542 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230118-162323144 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230118-162347173 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230118-162621206 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230118-162811105 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230118-163003964 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230118-163153344 (1).jpg

Amazing! I always wanted to visit Scilly, never did it, but I'm still planning to. It's worth so much that they've planted those plants such a long time ago.

2023 High 19.5°C Low -2.6°C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

Also some people who are not into palm trees yet sometimes ask me about it and get interested but when they hear how much any "larger" specimen of any species costs they opt out.

It's better to plant palms small, about 5 to 7 year old pot-grown ones with a small trunk no greater than a meter than to buy expensive tall field-grown palms with a sizable trunk. A friend of mine bought a 3 meter trachy and a ~80 cm Trachy a few years ago and now the smaller one is about the same size as the larger one.

Often the tall ones are field grown and the rootball chop stunts them for years while a pot grown small ones takes off when it roots exand for the first time in the ground.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

Thank you. Yes I was surprised because Jubaea chilensis was also growing in the glass house.

For some reason I get the impression that some of the botanists at Kew aren't extremely knowledgeable obviously some will be but I was reading an article about a Kew botanist that told the BBC there are Avocados growing in parts of London that got down to -10c in the last few years. Nowhere in London has gotten down to -10c in a very very long time. Also I remember @UK_Palmsmentioning that one of the gardeners at Kew said Washingtonia don't grow in London only a few years ago. Personally if I was them I would plant phoenix theophrasti, dactylifera, Sylvesteris and a syagrus romanzoffianana Santa Catarina outside.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Ryland said:

This is true, that it is becoming more popular to plant large specimens in these areas.  So when you go there, it can be a mix, but a lot of the trees are very very old and have survived to maturity from small plantings too.  There are some videos around showing planting of large Jubaea and some Parajubaea (not as large) too.  Not to distract too much from the topic but it is worth showing this:

image.thumb.jpeg.7cb005f668147c10ba3d2759684b27db.jpeg

They have created some really lovely gardens in a great setting around these lakes.

I agree @Hortulanus about London and hope as well that it is looking like that photo from Chile in a few years to come!  It will really have a more prominent reputation for its palms among the general public then.

If I had the money I would probably try to plant real big specimens of palms as well. Even though with zone pushing palms I still propose growing them from seed or plant them very young for acclimatisation.

2023 High 19.5°C Low -2.6°C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

I agree a lot more other palms should be more widely available around Western Europe.

I just wish small to medium Jubaea, Butia, Mules, an T. Princeps hybrids were more readily available. I think they will eventually as growers noticed the trend, but might take 10 years before prices and availability for these become good from extra upcoming supply.

Fortunei, Chamaerops, CIDP, Washies do have good availability and prices.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Foxpalms said:

For some reason I get the impression that some of the botanists at Kew aren't extremely knowledgeable obviously some will be but I was reading an article about a Kew botanist that told the BBC there are Avocados growing in parts of London that got down to -10c in the last few years. Nowhere in London has gotten down to -10c in a very very long time. Also I remember @UK_Palmsmentioning that one of the gardeners at Kew said Washingtonia don't grow in London only a few years ago. Personally if I was them I would plant phoenix theophrasti, dactylifera, Sylvesteris and a syagrus romanzoffianana Santa Catarina outside.

I had the same issue at the botanic garden of my city. I actually worked there for a few years and had discussions about what could be grown outside and what not. One person in particular who was responsible for a certain branch of exotic plantings outside constantly argued with me because they had worked as a gardener for 25+ years. It was sometimes rediculous because they planted out plants that were more tender than the ones I proposed. Like Kew (apprently) our botanic garden has also a colder climate than most of the city, because it's bit elevated very open and for some reason a very windy place inside the city, but it's not like it's Siberia out there. There is also a glass dome with several MEDITERRANEAN plants inside that could be grown outside. I would actually argue that almost anything native to the Mediterranean is hardy here, even in that garden. There are also already so many Mediterranean plants outside. But what made me really furious was that they wanted to CHOP DOWN an old Butia odorata from that dome because he said (AND THIS IS NO JOKE!!!): "We need to cut this thing down, this area is only for South American plants." ... HUH?! 🤯 I got so angry because I not only told him several times that Butia is one of THE South American plants, but showed him on my phone that they actually come from there. I also told him several times that it could be grown outside and showed him pictures of several Butias around the area. But nope... I also had several other discussion with people there but I was shocked that "professionals" who are in charge of important research and conservation know less than a young exotic gardening rookie.

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1

2023 High 19.5°C Low -2.6°C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Zeni said:

I just wish small to medium Jubaea, Butia, Mules, an T. Princeps hybrids were more readily available. I think they will eventually as growers noticed the trend, but might take 10 years before prices and availability for these become good from extra upcoming supply.

Fortunei, Chamaerops, CIDP, Washies do have good availability and prices.

Mules are the worst if it comes to availablity imo. You only get them in a few places and usually only pretty big ones for even bigger prices. Butia is still very underrated as a hardy palm around here.

  • Upvote 1

2023 High 19.5°C Low -2.6°C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

@Hortulanus Are there any large sabals growing in Germany because they would probably do pretty well there? 

I don't know tbh. Sabals are not so common around here. Maybe some people in the colder regions grow them, not sure. I only have Sabal uresana planted out right now.

2023 High 19.5°C Low -2.6°C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Zeni said:

It's better to plant palms small, about 5 to 7 year old pot-grown ones with a small trunk no greater than a meter than to buy expensive tall field-grown palms with a sizable trunk. A friend of mine bought a 3 meter trachy and a ~80 cm Trachy a few years ago and now the smaller one is about the same size as the larger one.

Often the tall ones are field grown and the rootball chop stunts them for years while a pot grown small ones takes off when it roots exand for the first time in the ground.

Yup 100%! I'm the biggest fan of planting them small and even raising them from seeds but I was talking about like 30-50cm trunk Trachys for example. They are not expensive in the eyes of us palm growers but to normal people they are.

  • Upvote 1

2023 High 19.5°C Low -2.6°C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Hortulanus said:

Mules are the worst if it comes to availablity imo. You only get them in a few places and usually only pretty big ones for even bigger prices. Butia is still very underrated as a hardy palm around here.

Jubaea is pretty much becoming fool-proof in coastal Belgium. Quite a few palm enthusiasts have them unprotected there.

I looked at the weather records of Vlissingen (Zeeland province - SW NL) and I think they may get away with growing unprotected Jubaea and Butias there too. By mid-2030s likely all of coastal Netherlands. 🤞

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Zeni said:

Jubaea is pretty much becoming fool-proof in coastal Belgium. Quite a few palm enthusiasts have them unprotected there.

I looked at the weather records of Vlissingen (Zeeland province - SW NL) and I think they may get away with growing unprotected Jubaea and Butias there too. By mid-2030s likely all of coastal Netherlands. 🤞

We have some large (getting) ones growing in my area. I made a post about it:

I think with every decade we get more and more chances to grow more and many different species. The hotter and drier summers are probably the most beneficial, because they balance out some extreme winters and the damages of it.

  • Upvote 1

2023 High 19.5°C Low -2.6°C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...