Damage assessment after Texas freeze - need to find cold hardy palms

[CiprianS]

5 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

 

I bought as a 5g with band size S.Causiarum and S.Louisana shipped together for 65$ s/h I believe =/ Total was around 200 for all 3 or something like that. 

T J 

Was the shipping $65 for each palm? Or was it $65 the shipping and you paid in total $200 for three palms? 

Edited April 7, 2021 by CiprianS

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

14 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

Was the shipping $65 for each palm? Or was it $65 the shipping and you paid in total $200 for three palms? 

Yes about 65 for shipping with a grand total of about 200$ for all 3 sabals shipped to Texas. I have always struggled with paying more for shipping then the palm but what else can you do there isn't really a reliable source of sabals in Texas @TexasColdHardyPalms is the closest nursery for us and you can imagine what he is going thru after this last freeze =/ 

[Collectorpalms]

On 3/30/2021 at 9:32 PM, CiprianS said:

This is my first post here, I hope I am not posting in the wrong section.  I live in the Houston area and two years ago I have started to plant palm trees after I cleaned the landscape of some other trees from my house. Now, after all of the work that I have done to redo my landscaping on my own, at least I see that my lawn is coming back to life. The palm trees, I have or perhaps I should say I had because I don't know how may are still alive, fourteen. 

I have already bought two small Pindo Palms that I keep outside in pots right now but they are slow or best case scenario medium growing. Also, I am looking for some Texas Sabal Palms that I can get but I don't know if I can transplant them since they are in ground and they have from one feet to about three in height and from what I read they are very hard to transplant.

Now, please help me to assess my damage and tell me if I am wrong in my assessment.

One Mexican Fan Palm that I think will survive.

Another Mexican Fan Palm which I don't know if it will survive or not.

Two Canary Island Date Palms which I don't know if they will survive or not, the center spears was very easy to remove 2-3 weeks after the freeze, I don't see any green inside any of them.

Mediterranean Fan Palm, this one hasn't put almost any growth since I planted it two years ago, there is something that it does not like where it is planted, the center of it became a little burned these days, in rest there is almost no change compared to how it was before the freeze.

These two Pygmy Date Palms, I think they are dead, it was very easy to remove their center spears to all of them very soon after the freeze. 

These two Sago Palms, I think they will survive, I have removed the frond to one of them, for the other one I did not since it did now fall and it still looked ok, except that it lost its green color.

These three Sago Palms, one of them has some signs of rot in it and I think it is dead, the first one, the second one I think it is dead, too, I am hopeful about the third one.

 

 

This row of canaries in Bryan looked dead too. They hadn’t done anything but cut the fronds off. They had some pindos mixed it and they had pulled the Spears out. I saw them in the summer and the were big and full. I think size matters in freezes that last several days. But waiting and not trunk cutting is delaying whatever outcome for you. I have been using a 16 inch electric saw from Home Depot.  $89 just dont cut too much off at first.

cut to the base of were the spear pulled. Mark the trunk if u need too.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[PricklyPearSATC]

1 hour ago, Jtee said:

You can get a Sabal causiarum on eBay for $20 and that’s with shipping included.

Cannot ship to LA, AZ, TX, CA & HI

Grower probably also grows citrus.  Have never seen a palm ban in  TX.

[CiprianS]

1 hour ago, Collectorpalms said:

But waiting and not trunk cutting is delaying whatever outcome for you. I have been using a 16 inch electric saw from Home Depot.  $89 just dont cut too much off at first.

cut to the base of were the spear pulled. Mark the trunk if u need too.

 

I have  an electrical orbital reciprocating saw that I will use probably in the next few hours to see if they have anything alive in them or not. If I see something green inside do I need to cover them somehow so that it won't get burned by the sun or just leave it exposed so that it gets full sun and it can grow? I know, I am trying to be optimistic here.

I have ordered some seeds from eBay, a lot of them actually and I have just received some for which I have some doubts. They are supposed to be for Sabal Mexicana and they don't look alike. Also, some of the seeds have holes in them + the sellers instructions were for Sabal Palmetto. Not to mention that there were also three bugs inside with the seeds.

Do they look like Sabal Mexicana seeds? For me they look as they have been eaten by the bugs that were probably inside the bag in which they came.

[Collectorpalms]

5 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

I have  an electrical orbital reciprocating saw that I will use probably in the next few hours to see if they have anything alive in them or not. If I see something green inside do I need to cover them somehow so that it won't get burned by the sun or just leave it exposed so that it gets full sun and it can grow? I know, I am trying to be optimistic here.

I have ordered some seeds from eBay, a lot of them actually and I have just received some for which I have some doubts. They are supposed to be for Sabal Mexicana and they don't look alike. Also, some of the seeds have holes in them + the sellers instructions were for Sabal Palmetto. Not to mention that there were also three bugs inside with the seeds.

Do they look like Sabal Mexicana seeds? For me they look as they have been eaten by the bugs that were probably inside the bag in which they came.

Sorry the seeds are no Good. Throw out all the floating seeds. I hate that dam bug! Anyone know the name of the bug that does that to Sabals?
I have true texas Sabal seedling from my Texas Sabal palm if interested. They only just sprouted last fall so are only 1 bluish leaf.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[CiprianS]

1 minute ago, Collectorpalms said:

Sorry the seeds are no Good. I hate that dams bug! I have true texas Sabal seedling from my Texas Sabal palm if interested. 

As I was looking at the seeds, I was living under the same impression that they won't be ok. What is odd is that the eBay seller has 3649 transactions with a 98.6% positive feedback.  And yes, I am interested in some Sabal Texana/Mexicana seeds since the ones that I received are a total disappointment.

[CiprianS]

36 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

Throw out all the floating seeds. 

Probably half of the seeds are floating right now. There is one bigger seed there that looks like a Canary seed. Can you look and confirm me that? 

[Collectorpalms]

6 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

Probably half of the seeds are floating right now. There is one bigger seed there that looks like a Canary seed. Can you look and confirm me that? 

It looked like a date seed. The white dot on the seeds is where the bug Hatches into the seed.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[CiprianS]

Compared to the dates seeds that I have been eating this one is way smaller.  To me it just looks like a Canary seed, which honestly looks like coffee.  I have never had issues on eBay, but it seems that I have just started to. 

[Collectorpalms]

The seller must have collected from yard and have a Canary Island Date Palm. 

[CiprianS]

Probably... I am going outside with my saw, I am still hopeful that I can find something green inside those Canaries. As I asked before, if I find something green should I leave it exposed in full sun or just cover it so that the sun won't burn it?

[Collectorpalms]

Your not going to find anything green since the sun hasn’t shunned on it. just cut to the base of the hole where the spear pulled. Peroxide it out and clean it and report back. Don’t go deeper as that may take what is left of the meristem. 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[CiprianS]

I don't have peroxide, I only treated with copper fungicide. I am going outside right now.

[NOT A TA]

38 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

For me they look as they have been eaten by the bugs that were probably inside the bag in which they came.

We have an insect here in FL (same one?) that does the same thing to Sabal seed.   I'm more of a general ornamental horticulture guy with an education in agriculture including entomology and I sell palm seeds so I've been dealing with them and know enough to observe and figure out their basic life cycle.

I believe the mature female insect plants an egg in the very young developing seed.  Then as the seed matures the larvae eats the inside of the developing seed.   If what I've observed over the past few years is correct the insect does NOT do anything to mature unaffected seeds.  Once the larvae have grown and mature insects emerge after they chew a hole out they just leave looking for love.  So seeds you received that don't have a hole or float are likely viable.

You can't tell which seeds have an egg/larvae in them just by looking at them.  I've tried with a magnifying glass.  They do however crush easier.  Several years ago, the first time I came across them before I understood their life cycle, I threw out about 10,000 cleaned Sabal seed when I found mature insects in my storage containers.  Imagine the time I lost cleaning that much fresh sabal seed ( very time consuming per seed when fresh).  Anyway, now I dry the seeds, clean the seeds, dunk the seeds, remove floaters & crush.  Then dry the remaining seeds, dip the remaining seeds in insecticide, remove any floaters, dry them, separate the seeds into small groups and put in zip lock bags, and store the seeds that way.  If any adults emerge through the process of course those seeds are removed and should an adult emerge during storage it will die in the little zip lock bags because of the insecticide on the seeds and lack of food/water.  I attach a note on orders now to notify buyers that the seeds have insecticide on them and that there's a slim possibility a mature insect might emerge during transit.

Once the seeds are a few months old (after the seeds have matured) any insects have matured I believe the rest of the seeds are fine and not in any danger regardless of whether they've been cleaned or treated with insecticide.  It just looks really really bad if customers get seeds with insects so the seller should take some preventive measures. Here, only about 1-2% of the seeds are affected, but it's enough to be a big pain if you're working with thousands of seeds.

The seller of the seeds mentioned may not even know about the insects if it's a Fred & Ethel type operation picking up seeds from a tree in their yard.  If they collect freshly fallen seeds and bag them & ship them a percentage of the Sabal seeds will have insects that emerge as adults even though the seeds looked unaffected when collected.

[CiprianS]

1 hour ago, NOT A TA said:

 

Thank you very much for the explanation.

Below is how my Canaries look like after I trunk cut them. I think I will do the same with the Robustas since the one that was showing signs of growth is not growing anymore and the other one has stopped a while back, too.

I have lost my hope with the Canaries, I think they are dead.

First Canary

Second Canary

[CiprianS]

My wife just came back from the front  yard and she is saying that both of the Canaries smell awful... and one of them had some fig flies on it. Should I treat them again with copper fungicide or should I try something else? Or should I just call them dead and remove them as soon as possible?

[Collectorpalms]

You have gone past the meristem. Remove them ASAP. 
I think the issue was maybe they were not kept dry enough. 
I went past two more today not much larger than those and they were alive. One was in a field completely neglected. One was one I planted that had just got planted in the fall. We also had several inches of snow and heaps of ice.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[CiprianS]

2 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

You have gone past the meristem. Remove them ASAP.

Damn... they smelled so bad anyway (trying to find an excuse for myself here). Do you have any photo on where I should stop the cut from one of your trunk cuts? 

[Collectorpalms]

Each palms is different. If it had spear pull, I try to only go to the base of where that frond came out. If it didn’t have spear pull then I am overly cautious to not going too far. It hard to say exactly. But if you have gone too far it looks like a clean cut of a “regular tree.” Depends on how big the Palm is and species. 
I did two Washingtonia a 4ft and a 6ft and I went as far as the spear pull was on them. Then I could tell all the remaining tissue was dried up I just left it and the tree continued to dry up. It was pretty easy to see they were dead. I only used peroxide and there was no rot. It was just too cold. The meristem dedicated and just formed a hole so the center of the palm was hollow very far down, this also happened to my bjxs hybrid. Only time I have seen that happen.

 

[Collectorpalms]

These two are smaller jubaea hybrids. They had spear pull and I cut them down most of the way to the pull but not all the way. I put peroxide in them only. If any spear does form it will come out rather quickly and I got rid of the dead tissue so I didn’t have a disease issue. It’s only been a week, I haven’t given up yet. They are slow anyhow and need more weeks of warm temperatures.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[CiprianS]

Ok, I see what you did there. Unfortunately, my whole meristem was mushy, the outside of it was not like that, was white, but the whole center was mushy and smelling awful. They are goners, tomorrow I will probably remove them completely. Now I need to look at the Robustas tomorrow and see if there is any sign of life there.

This Robusta seems to have a spear inside that I honestly haven't seen before although I looked inside it before. I will keep looking these days as it gets warmer and warmer to see if I see it going out more.

 

[CiprianS]

The seller from which I bought the Sabal Texana seeds on eBay has just cancelled the order and issued me a refund. I messaged him earlier today explaining him the issues with the seeds, and I would have waited 1-2 days for an answer/solution from him before starting a claim for a refund on eBay. I always try to find a solution to issues, I don't pour gasoline on fire and in 99% of the cases it works.

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by CiprianS

[Collectorpalms]

5 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

Ok, I see what you did there. Unfortunately, my whole meristem was mushy, the outside of it was not like that, was white, but the whole center was mushy and smelling awful. They are goners, tomorrow I will probably remove them completely. Now I need to look at the Robustas tomorrow and see if there is any sign of life there.

This Robusta seems to have a spear inside that I honestly haven't seen before although I looked inside it before. I will keep looking these days as it gets warmer and warmer to see if I see it going out more.

 

I would leave that one alone, I think I see a spear too.

[CiprianS]

11 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

I would leave that one alone, I think I see a spear too.

The other one only has water inside it... what should I do with that one?  I think I will give it a few days since it does not smell as the Canaries did... and after that I will see what I can do with it. 

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by CiprianS

[CiprianS]

My wife makes fond of me saying that she is a better gardener compare to me... her roses (double knockout) survived and look gorgeous, although they had flowers during the freeze and after that they were really burned. 

That is how they look now.  Compared to the palm trees and my three citrus trees that are also burned and probably dead, her roses rock!

 

[Swolte]

Looks great, you've got your challenge there! I am generally not into roses as much. They kill the tropical feel for me and, even if it didn't, the deer in my area will munch them down anyway - thorns and all! 

[CiprianS]

Thank you. This is the HOA that wants two rows of shrubs in front of the house, instead of those which I removed I planted these roses.  Otherwise maybe I wouldn’t have had the roses there. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by CiprianS

[Collectorpalms]

10 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

Thank you. This is the HOA that wants two rows of shrubs in front of the house, instead of those which I removed I planted these roses.  Otherwise maybe I wouldn’t have had the roses there. 

Plant dwarf Buford hollys behind the roses. They didn’t fry here, and it will make the roses stand out more, and you will have your two rows of shrubs. Roses always do well after a cold winter.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[Fusca]

2 hours ago, CiprianS said:

The seller from which I bought the Sabal Texana seeds on eBay has just cancelled the order and issued me a refund. I messaged him earlier today explaining him the issues with the seeds, and I would have waited 1-2 days for an answer/solution from him before starting a claim for a refund on eBay. I always try to find a solution to issues, I don't pour gasoline on fire and in 99% of the cases it works.

Good that you got a refund.  Not only were there bug issues you got the wrong species.  They sent you palmetto seeds and that's why the instructions were for palmetto.  Sabal mexicana (Texas Sabal) seeds are about 2x larger than palmetto.  Below is a good comparison with mexicana seeds at the top and palmetto seeds at the bottom.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Fusca

[CiprianS]

2 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

Plant dwarf Buford hollys behind the roses. They didn’t fry here, and it will make the roses stand out more, and you will have your two rows of shrubs. Roses always do well after a cold winter.

I tricked the HOA with the two rows by putting them in zig zag on two rows. So, at the moment I am good with the HOA. By the way, check your private messages.

[CiprianS]

2 minutes ago, Fusca said:

Good that you got a refund.  Not only were there bug issues you got the wrong species.  They sent you palmetto seeds and that's why the instructions were for palmetto.  Sabal mexicana seeds are about 2x larger than palmetto.  Below is a good comparison with mexicana seeds at the top and palmetto seeds at the bottom.

Thank you very much for the clarification! I read that the Sabal Mexicana are bigger than the other ones and that is why I took a photo of the seeds next to the measuring tape. I will go and throw them right now since I have them in water in a bowl right now. Half of them are floating, one of them appears to be a Canary seed. The seller did a mess.

[Fusca]

3 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

Thank you very much for the clarification! I read that the Sabal Mexicana are bigger than the other ones and that is why I took a photo of the seeds next to the measuring tape. I will go and throw them right now since I have them in water in a bowl right now. Half of them are floating, one of them appears to be a Canary seed. The seller did a mess.

Those seeds look old too, but Sabal seeds are easy to germinate and even year-old seeds will germinate.  So like @NOT A TA mentioned you can still germinate the sinkers.

[CiprianS]

But the problem is that I don’t want to germinate Sabal Palmettos. I have ten small palms coming to me by the end of this week so I am done with the Palmettos. Now I am looking for the Sabal Mexicana to get them and the two Canaries to replant in my front yard. I need to go and check again at Houston Garden Center these days for Canaries. 

[Tassie_Troy1971]

On 4/2/2021 at 5:39 AM, CiprianS said:

As I said, I think my Canaries are dead and my hope is almost dead with them. I have pulled some other leaves from the inside of it that were not the middle spear. The middle wholes are very big.

This is what I pulled out again.

This is the first Canary.

And this is the second one.

Very sorry to say that i am quite certain that they are beyond recovery. 

I always thought Phoenix canariensis were very hardy as they grow in some really cold inland areas of Tasmania.

[CiprianS]

6 hours ago, Tassie_Troy1971 said:

Very sorry to say that i am quite certain that they are beyond recovery. 

I always thought Phoenix canariensis were very hardy as they grow in some really cold inland areas of Tasmania.

After I trunk cut them yesterday, I share the same opinion, they are dead.  I just to keep on searching at Houston Garden Center for some new ones to replace them. Until then, probably today I will remove them completely. I am sad about this, I really liked those Canaries but they are dead. 

[CiprianS]

Ok... now my dilemma begins. I have found two awesome Sabal Riverside palm trees at Phil. I will order them as soon as he will call me back. Should I plant those in my front yard instead of the two Canaries that are dead or just wait to find some Canaries again so that I can plant there? The Canaries look awesome in my opinion, I don't want to say that the Sabals don't, but in my view the Canaries make a much better view for the landscape.

[Collectorpalms]

56 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

Ok... now my dilemma begins. I have found two awesome Sabal Riverside palm trees at Phil. I will order them as soon as he will call me back. Should I plant those in my front yard instead of the two Canaries that are dead or just wait to find some Canaries again so that I can plant there? The Canaries look awesome in my opinion, I don't want to say that the Sabals don't, but in my view the Canaries make a much better view for the landscape.

The dilemma, the reliable Sabals ( Real riversides are much nicer than Palmetto), that will never let you down, albeit slow for a few year, Or the Flashy Canaries that may break you heart one day! I think you need to find a way to put both in your front yard. Don't put all the your eggs in one basket and be left with nothing.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[CiprianS]

That might be an option, too! To put some Sabals also in the front yard. But if the Sabals are in the proximity of the Canaries... it is not going to work since the Flashy Canaries will leave them in shade there.  Whatever... done deal with Phil, I ordered the below two Sabal Riverside from him.    He will ship them on Monday so that they won't stay in any UPS/FedEx warehouse or truck during the weekend. 

[PricklyPearSATC]

7 hours ago, CiprianS said:

 

 

1 hour ago, CiprianS said:

Ok... now my dilemma begins. I have found two awesome Sabal Riverside palm trees at Phil. I will order them as soon as he will call me back. Should I plant those in my front yard instead of the two Canaries that are dead or just wait to find some Canaries again so that I can plant there? The Canaries look awesome in my opinion, I don't want to say that the Sabals don't, but in my view the Canaries make a much better view for the landscape.

Go for it, with Sabal Riverside.


I often seen CIDP at Home Depot.  I'm sure they will show up sometime or another. 
Sabals are hard to find.