BUTIA X JUBAEA X QUEEN in the Pacific Northwest

[MarkbVet]

40 minutes ago, Scott W said:

I thought we kinda beat that horse dead in the other thread 

But yes, according to Rich the Jubaea in the Jubutia F3 is on the mother's side....

He did a cross and put Jubaea pollen onto one of the Jubutia F3 bracts a couple years ago and that's the pictures that are shown in that message above.  I have seen them in person and they are beautiful trees.  He sold one or two, but yes, some day I believe he hopes to backcross Syagrus to these once mature.

If he could get more Jubaea pollen he'd do this cross again.

If true, then Rich's is a different cross than the standard 'supermule' sold by Moutrie and Wanderlust... therefore should look a bit different?

[NWpalms@206]

Just now, MarkbVet said:

I'd take a straight JxQ also, it's on my wish list.   :-)

Man, that’s my #1 wish list! And I dont think im gonna  get it  at least for a while 

[NWpalms@206]

Just now, MarkbVet said:

If true, then Rich's is a different cross than the standard 'supermule' sold by Moutrie and Wanderlust... therefore should look a bit different?

See! That’s what I’m saying! Haha no we’re good I just wanted to hear rich chime in 

[MarkbVet]

3 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

That’s cool, just straight up jubutia f3 not crossed? And yes we definitely did, although Rich himself wasn’t a part of that conversation his direct answer would be nice to hear. The only reason i asked because I ordered custom labels, if it’s B/J F3 I’d use the label bujubia f3, because my JxB are labeled jubutia. But not to regress. What i took away from the other thread was J/B f3. Perhaps I was mistaken. All good either way. Our place will be on the garden tour and I may get questioned! Just Want to know my stuff

This plant looks to me more Butia than Jubaea....  ?

[NWpalms@206]

Just now, MarkbVet said:

This plant looks to me more Butia than Jubaea....  ?

Definitely strong butia 

[MarkbVet]

6 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Man, that’s my #1 wish list! And I dont think im gonna  get it  at least for a while 

Yeah Patrick and Matt both seem to be all out. of em...

[NWpalms@206]

11 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

I'd take a straight JxQ also, it's on my wish list.   :-)   I'm confused; are u saying rich's is jubutia f3, then crossed again with jubaea before the queen cross (5th generation)?

By what rich is saying (not to me) but collectively. Yes. He’s speaking of these jubutia f3 x j (f4) that are maturing now. Just needs the final queen (f5) cross 

Edited January 22, 2022 by NWpalms@206

[MarkbVet]

6 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

By what rich is saying (not to me) but collectively. Yes. 

Well then, it's definitely quite different from a 'standard' supermule; Jubaea genes will be increased proportionately, and Butia genes reduced.  That may be as close as we're gonna get (for now) to a pure JxQ cross.  If Rich has em for sale (and the hybridization was done carefully/reliably), might wanna get one...

Edited January 22, 2022 by MarkbVet

[MarkbVet]

10 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Definitely strong butia 

Makes me think it's a BxJ not JxB... but who knows?  Maybe Rich does.

[Scott W]

42 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

If true, then Rich's is a different cross than the standard 'supermule' sold by Moutrie and Wanderlust... therefore should look a bit different?

No, as I said in that other thread, Rich and Frank are using the exact same Jubutia F3 trees to produce the super mule.  Rich supplies a lot of seed and stock to Frank as well as a couple other vendors on the PNW.

@NWpalms@206 yeah, that's what I was saying.  Below is a close up of the leaf tips, developing the distinct Jubaea hook.  They look much more like Jubaea than Butia, especially when seen in person.

[NWpalms@206]

22 minutes ago, Scott W said:

No, as I said in that other thread, Rich and Frank are using the exact same Jubutia F3 trees to produce the super mule.  Rich supplies a lot of seed and stock to Frank as well as a couple other vendors on the PNW.

@NWpalms@206 yeah, that's what I was saying.  Below is a close up of the leaf tips, developing the distinct Jubaea hook.  They look much more like Jubaea than Butia, especially when seen in person.

Great answer from rich thanks for sharing that. They are generational J/B crossed with Q. And franks are the same, appears that moultries website and wanderlust labels (B/J)xB)xQ should actually read (j/B)xB)xQ or simply (Jubaea C. x Butia O.)x Queen. This is where it got confusing. And those do look like the leaves of my Patrick J/B.  With pics it’s pics hard to see, palm pictures seem to emphasize V and arch sometimes and make butia look stand out. 

Edited January 23, 2022 by NWpalms@206

[Scott W]

5 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Great answer from rich thanks for sharing that. They are generational J/B crossed with Q. And franks are the same, appears that moultries website and wanderlust labels (B/J)xB)xQ should actually read (j/B)xB)xQ or simply (Jubaea C. x Butia O.)x Queen. This is where it got confusing. 

Yeah, I don't know Frank as well as I do Rich.  I'll talk to him and see if he can get Frank to possibly update that....

[NWpalms@206]

2 minutes ago, Scott W said:

Yeah, I don't know Frank as well as I do Rich.  I'll talk to him and see if he can get Frank to possibly update that....

Probably save a little confusion. I’m settled about the super mules, But not gonna be surprised if somebody bring this up again in the future lol. Couple Weeks ago I messaged Moultrie about when they’re shipping again and asked the question to them as well. Probably a safe assumption to the answer now. That super that Frank has pics with is supposed to be the oldest one and it sure is nice. Hoping to get 2 more Frank’s and 2 more riches. I’ll support everyone. 

[UK_Palms]

If only we had access to these seeds, or seedlings/small palms in the UK! The untapped potential is enormous here! Maybe one day, we will be able to start planting these intricate cross breeds properly, since they are virtually impossible to obtain right now. Here's to hoping anyway!

London and the south coast are just waiting... patiently, on standby... for them to become properly available to us... 

[NWpalms@206]

14 minutes ago, Scott W said:

Yeah, I don't know Frank as well as I do Rich.  I'll talk to him and see if he can get Frank to possibly update that....

I’m sure Matt will see this convo as well I don’t know how to tag people in the post or I would, possibly update his as well. This is the current Rich JB f3 x schizo label. No big deal, but he’d probably prefer to be consistent with the source info as well. 

[Love them palms]

15 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

I’m sure Matt will see this convo as well I don’t know how to tag people in the post or I would, possibly update his as well. This is the current Rich JB f3 x schizo label. No big deal, but he’d probably prefer to be consistent with the source info as well. 

@matthedlund

[MarkbVet]

1 hour ago, Scott W said:

No, as I said in that other thread, Rich and Frank are using the exact same Jubutia F3 trees to produce the super mule.  Rich supplies a lot of seed and stock to Frank as well as a couple other vendors on the PNW.

@NWpalms@206 yeah, that's what I was saying.  Below is a close up of the leaf tips, developing the distinct Jubaea hook.  They look much more like Jubaea than Butia, especially when seen in person.

Hmmm, well, all I can say is that Matt at Wanderlust said that the Supermules he carries are exactly the same source stock as Moutrie's ,  and they are BxJ, self pollinated to create F2 and then F3 generations; the F3 was then was crossed with Syagrus to get the supermule.   He was very specific about it... I suppose he could be mistaken?  

[MarkbVet]

1 hour ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Great answer from rich thanks for sharing that. They are generational J/B crossed with Q. And franks are the same, appears that moultries website and wanderlust labels (B/J)xB)xQ should actually read (j/B)xB)xQ or simply (Jubaea C. x Butia O.)x Queen. This is where it got confusing. And those do look like the leaves of my Patrick J/B.  With pics it’s pics hard to see, palm pictures seem to emphasize V and arch sometimes and make butia look stand out. 

Matt at Wanderlust was quite adamant that they were not hybrids of (B/J) x B x Q....that this was a misconception, and that they were actually BxJ  (original hybrid) then self pollinated for 2 generations to get the F3 plants (no additional Butia genes via hybridization) and then the Queen cross.  In addition, he seemed adamant that the original cross was BxJ  not JxB.   So where does that leave us?

Edited January 23, 2022 by MarkbVet

[NWpalms@206]

1 minute ago, MarkbVet said:

Matt at Wanderlust was quite adamant that they were not hybrids of (B/J) x B x Q....that this was a misconception, and that they were actually BxJ  (original hybrid) then self pollinated for 2 generations to get the F3 plants (no additional Butia genes via hybridization) and then the Queen cross.  In addition, he seemed adamant that the original cross was BxJ  not JxB.   So where does that leave us?

I don’t at all want to discredit anyone or correct anyone just so we all clear, but personally i would tend to lean towards what rich is saying in his direct messages above “jubaea on the mother side”, and according to him self pollinating “does not add a F2..3” and so on. So I’m not sure where the confusion originated. If  Frank and Elaine stand behind the B/J f3 designation, Then there is some mis communication between rich and Frank I suppose. It all goes back to the original tree thought to be jubaea then later determined a hybrid, not sure why a B/j would be Mistaken for pure Jubaea.  They tend to show butia traits pretty clearly. 

[NWpalms@206]

If my palm mythology correct they actually moved that tree out of Fairchild garden because it didn’t fit their regulation of no hybrids after discovering it was not pure Jubaea. But someone can correct ME if I’m wrong I don’t mind it

[MarkbVet]

1 minute ago, NWpalms@206 said:

I don’t at all want to discredit anyone or correct anyone just so we all clear, but personally i would tend to lean towards what rich is saying in his direct messages above “jubaea on the mother side”, and according to him self pollinating “does not add a F2..3” and so on. So I’m not sure where the confusion originated. If  Frank and Elaine stand behind the B/J f3 designation, Then there is some mis communication between rich and Frank I suppose. It all goes back to the original tree thought to be jubaea then later determined a hybrid, not sure why a B/j would be Mistaken for pure Jubaea.  They tend to show butia traits pretty clearly. 

I agree; if the original tree looked Jubaea, then that original hybrid tree would most likely be JxB, assuming Butia was involved lol.   Not sure I understand Rich's statement that self pollinating doesn't add F2 or F3...  any additional generations are typically dubbed F2, F3 etc regardless of which crosses happened to create them...unless he simply means that in THIS case, self pollination wasn't what was happening.  Dunno.  Also not sure why there seems to be disagreement re: whether a later Butia cross happened (before the queen cross) or not.   Apparently there is more confusion between the various sources/players here than I had imagined.

[Swolte]

I tend to lean towards Rich too given he's doing the cross.  Here's a similar quote from him I plucked from facebook somewhere:

"Einar Richard Lindberg
The cross is Jubutia F3 X Syagrus romanzoffiana. Yes I did the cross. This hybrid has been produced for less than 10 years. Yes Tim Hopper had a F3 and most likely did hybrids from it. That plant is no longer in existence. Two of us are currently doing this hybrid."

There's a reports that they can take 14F for long durations. When I got it I took statements of its hardiness (Supermule... com'on!) with a big grain of salt but I have to admit I am impressed thus far! 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Swolte

[Scott W]

12 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

   So where does that leave us?

In this thread here Merrill specifically states it's 

(JXB)XB]XB...that's the best I can do....

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/4789-jubutyagrus/&do=findComment&comment=81370

[NWpalms@206]

2 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

I agree; if the original tree looked Jubaea, then that original hybrid tree would most likely be JxB, assuming Butia was involved lol.   Not sure I understand Rich's statement that self pollinating doesn't add F2 or F3...  any additional generations are typically dubbed F2, F3 etc regardless of which crosses happened to create them...unless he simply means that in THIS case, self pollination wasn't what was happening.  Dunno.  Also not sure why there seems to be disagreement re: whether a later Butia cross happened (before the queen cross) or not.   Apparently there is more confusion between the various sources/players here than I had imagined.

Perhaps a self pollinated produces more of a direct descendant or clone of you will, and hybrid pollination leads to favoring one parent or the other more so each generation, this changing the plants characteristics and producing the need to dub f2,3,4 but this is purely speculation. 

[NWpalms@206]

2 minutes ago, Scott W said:

In this thread here Merrill specifically states it's 

(JXB)XB]XB...that's the best I can do....

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/4789-jubutyagrus/&do=findComment&comment=81370

Good addition to the topic, I think we’ve boiled it down to what it is finally. There’s is just some minor mislabeling of that original j/b. As for the “extra” butia. It’s just generational, xb)xb)…. The J/B)xB)xB is the “jubutia F3”.  Apparently The f2 would not self pollinate but the f3 would. 

[MarkbVet]

20 minutes ago, Scott W said:

In this thread here Merrill specifically states it's 

(JXB)XB]XB...that's the best I can do....

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/4789-jubutyagrus/&do=findComment&comment=81370

Wow!  That's quite different!  Merrill should be the horse's mouth here, I would think... thanks for digging that up!    So the F2 AND F3 generations were crosses with Butia?  Wow, that would potentially really dilute the Jubaea genes, opposite of what I might have wanted for hardiness.   That would make it more similar to regular mules than I had hoped...but at least there's still some Jubaea genes in there.  Great information, much appreciated. 

[MarkbVet]

21 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Good addition to the topic, I think we’ve boiled it down to what it is finally. There’s is just some minor mislabeling of that original j/b. As for the “extra” butia. It’s just generational, xb)xb)…. The J/B)xB)xB is the “jubutia F3”.  Apparently The f2 would not self pollinate but the f3 would. 

Not sure this was self pollinating in any generation, right?  The way it's written suggests they crossed the JxB  with a Butia to get F2, then crossed with a Butia again to get F3.   Or am I missing somethin'?

[Scott W]

2 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

Not sure this was self pollinating in any generation, right?  The way it's written suggests they crossed the JxB  with a Butia to get F2, then crossed with a Butia again to get F3.   Or am I missing somethin'?

Original trees from the parent at Fairchild were grown from seed.  Everything after that was backcrossed with Butia....or so how I read it.

[Scott W]

9 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

Wow!  That's quite different!  Merrill should be the horse's mouth here, I would think... thanks for digging that up!    So the F2 AND F3 generations were crosses with Butia?  Wow, that would potentially really dilute the Jubaea genes, opposite of what I might have wanted for hardiness.   That would make it more similar to regular mules than I had hoped...but at least there's still some Jubaea genes in there.  Great information, much appreciated. 

Yes, definitely substantially diluted.  However, the gene is still there, and from what has been seen with adding Syagrus to it has been faster growth and for whatever reason more cold hardiness than the standard Mule, hence "super mule".

[NWpalms@206]

5 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

Not sure this was self pollinating in any generation, right?  The way it's written suggests they crossed the JxB  with a Butia to get F2, then crossed with a Butia again to get F3.   Or am I missing somethin'?

Was just referring to this part:
All were successfully self or sibling pollinated, which was almost completely unsuccessful on their (JXB)XB mother, where only outcrosses were possible.
not sure i completely understand that statement either. But not Too worried about that part my brain can only take so much. 

[NWpalms@206]

1 minute ago, Scott W said:

Yes, definitely substantially diluted.  However, the gene is still there, and from what has been seen with adding Syagrus to it has been faster growth and for whatever reason more cold hardiness than the standard Mule, hence "super mule".

I’d think any amount of jubaea crossed in, in any order would produce hardier offspring than just BxQ.

[MarkbVet]

4 minutes ago, Scott W said:

Original trees from the parent at Fairchild were grown from seed.  Everything after that was backcrossed with Butia....or so how I read it.

Ah, so original source plant= JxB,  seeds from that (self pollinated) grew F1 seedlings, those were then crossed with Butia twice to get F2 and F3--correct?

[MarkbVet]

3 minutes ago, Scott W said:

Yes, definitely substantially diluted.  However, the gene is still there, and from what has been seen with adding Syagrus to it has been faster growth and for whatever reason more cold hardiness than the standard Mule, hence "super mule".

'Whatever reason' most likely= those Jubaea genes lol.

[MarkbVet]

4 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Was just referring to this part:
All were successfully self or sibling pollinated, which was almost completely unsuccessful on their (JXB)XB mother, where only outcrosses were possible.
not sure i completely understand that statement either. But not Too worried about that part my brain can only take so much. 

I think he's referring to F3 generation, where they could be sustained via self or sibling pollination (maintaining a stable and reproducible F3 genetic source, as we have now); before that,  the JxB  xB  mother (F2) had to be pollinated from an outside source, e.g. another Butia cross. 

[ShadyDan]

This thread is making me go cross-eyed. I almost failed my genetics class in university, just couldn’t wrap my head around any of it.
 

Glad other people than me are fighting the good fight and making some good looking cold hardy palms. I truly appreciate all the good work that goes into figuring this tuff out. 

[Scott W]

10 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

Ah, so original source plant= JxB,  seeds from that (self pollinated) grew F1 seedlings, those were then crossed with Butia twice to get F2 and F3--correct?

That is how I understand it....

[MarkbVet]

Just now, Scott W said:

That is how I understand it....

So now we have achieved the true Nirvana of Wisdom, and can ascend to the horticultural Valhalla!!

[MarkbVet]

7 minutes ago, Scott W said:

That is how I understand it....

Ok, I had been assuming that the F1 designation was for the original JxB hybrid mother plant.  But if the production of supermules began with seed from that plant, then F1 would have been for that generation produced from the seed.  Got it.  I think.

Edited January 23, 2022 by MarkbVet

[Scott W]

2 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

So now we have achieved the true Nirvana of Wisdom, and can ascend to the horticultural Valhalla!!

I'm just trying to help out is all....thanks!  

[MarkbVet]

2 minutes ago, Scott W said:

I'm just trying to help out is all....thanks!  

You've been a BIG help!   It mostly matters to us plant nerds, when the average buyer really wants to know "does it look cool and survive in my climate?"  That said, it's still nice to know what we actually have.  Especially when it comes to evaluating hybrid plants, and predicting what other hybrids might yield good results.