Cocos nucifera (Coconut) in Malta

[Maltese coconut project]

The coconuts suffered the least since the leaves simply became separate frond type instead of the baby leaf type. But the pineapples and papayas suffered the most 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Maltese coconut project

[GottmitAlex]

At this point, I will advise to move this thread under the PALMS IN POTS thread. 

@PALM MOD

 

[GottmitAlex]

Don't get me wrong. I admire your successes and shortcomings.

But there is a subforum for palms in pots.  Folks who are striving to see their palms thrive planted in the ground, are being ignored.  I give you my word, it it not about mine. Palmtalkers/palmlovers love their palms. Short story: there is a subforum for every category. Thank God. 

[Maltese coconut project]

I will eventually plant in the ground. The pot is only temporary for young palms to be transported easily in the best possible microclimate till they get strong enough 

[Aleitalyyy]

1 hour ago, GottmitAlex said:

Non fraintendermi. Ammiro i tuoi successi e i tuoi difetti.

Ma c'è un subforum per le palme in vaso. Le persone che si sforzano di vedere i loro palmi prosperare piantati nel terreno, vengono ignorate. Ti do la mia parola, non si tratta della mia. I palmtalkers/palmlover amano i loro palmi. Breve storia: c'è un sottoforum per ogni categoria. Grazie Dio. 

as soon as I can I'll put my palm into the ground... obviously that's the goal... and it will be a much more complex job than yours due to my less suitable atmospheric temperatures than yours... but just thinking about this challenge makes me like it !

[Aleitalyyy]

bro cover those palm trees or take them indoors ... they are too small for all that water that goes down to the mortar

[Maltese coconut project]

This the first time I am not using the underplate and also the first time I used more hardening techniques with the potassium,, magnesium etc.. Also I am not using the loam sand and clay mix soil but instead using mikskaar peat with wood fragment mix which is very high draining material. The very small ones I will try some with heating at night and taking them out during sunshine time, some I will just take indoors unheated and take out in the sun during the day, some I will keep outside on the rooftop and some down in the garden. I will see which ones survive or not. I will also keep doing hardening with both fertigation and foliar fertilizer 

[Aleitalyyy]

seems like a good plan like this.... a good number should survive for summer 2023...

i'm tracking temperatures in malta , cyprus, tajuana, corona, new port, and s. diego, as well as Andalusia .... where there are all the cocos at the limit ... I'm trying to make a comparison with my temperatures !!! I try to understand how much difference we have... the max worries me less because I would put up a greenhouse for the Ligurian winter...

[Maltese coconut project]

It seems that Cocos nucifera becomes challenging when daytime temperatures go below 21 degrees celcius and night time temperatures below 15 degrees celcius. 

[GottmitAlex]

8 hours ago, Maltese coconut project said:

It seems that Cocos nucifera becomes challenging when daytime temperatures go below 21 degrees celcius and night time temperatures below 15 degrees celcius. 

Not necessarily.

Cocos will not grow at 12c , however, they will not die at those temps. Unless, they're the daytime temps.

At 16c median/average daily temps, cocos will grow.

Once they go below 8c they will need help.

 

 

 

 

[Maltese coconut project]

I didn't say that they die but it becomes challenging and a gardener will need to watch every factor from too much soil moisture (at low temperatures), to macro and micronutrients, light,  cold droughts and shelter etc to improve their survival chances during the cooler months. In warm months they literally grow almost like weeds

Edited November 30, 2022 by Maltese coconut project

[GottmitAlex]

I highly suggest you plant them asap or you will have annuals in pots.

The only way to truly find out if they will survive in your region is to plant them and take care of them.  Like you said "the Gardner". 

You can bring them inside when it's cold and take them out when it's warm, but they will never develop to their potential. They are literally on life support. Believe me, I know.  There is only one way to do it and find out for sure. 

I don't have much land to grow things on. But I'm doing my best and it seems to be working.  

As you know I have an Alfie growing in the middle as my plan B.  

I'm not getting any younger.

 

[Maltese coconut project]

At the moment it's late to plant in the ground.. Will have to wait for next warm season. It will work.. They survived winter 2020/21 but not 2021/2022. In both of the winters mentioned, they had underplate all winter. Between end of June to beginning September 2020 and From 20th May - 10th October 2021 I left them under North facing wall receiving only early morning and late evening sun. They grew faster and larger leaves but with thinner waxy cuticle and less resistance to cold droughts, (lessons learned) I gave fairly basic fertilizer on those years. Plus I used local loam soil containing clay. This time all time south facing, a very well draining potting mix and removed underplate beginning of November. Also am using specific fertilisation during different seasons reducing Nitrogen in the colder months and increasing potassium and magnesium and other micronutrients for winter resistance. We'll see how the experiment goes.. Someday I will buy some agricultural land but I need time and money. I will also try some in our garden despite sunshine hours is limited there because night time low temperatures are warmer in the garden than outside (extreme minimum is 14 degrees celcius /57 degrees Fahrenheit in the garden) 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Maltese coconut project

[gurugu]

6 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Not necessarily.

Cocos will not grow at 12c , however, they will not die at those temps. Unless, they're the daytime temps.

At 16c median/average daily temps, cocos will grow.

Once they go below 8c they will need help.

What happens when minimum temperatures are over 12ºC, and maximum ones are below 18ºC? Average temperatures in that case don´t reach 16ºC. Do they grow at all?

And what happens with those coconuts growing in dessert places like Egypt, for instance, that see below 8ºC temperatures almost every night in winter, but above 24ºC daytime ones? Average daily temperatures are above 16ºC in that case.

So the question is : if they don´t keep on growing below 12ºC, at what temperature do they restart growing? at 12ºC too? or at above 20ºC?

I have noticed that cocos do grow at daytime, not only at nightime, in summertime temperatures. Has anyone checked with other palm species?

 

 

 

 

[Maltese coconut project]

Quite a challenging question to answer. The thing is that it's not a yes or no if they grow or not in those temperatures mentioned but rather that different temperatures stimulate different speeds of growth.  Also the biggest query is at which temperatures do they use more storaged glucose from the plant itself (the glucose the plant stored during more ideal warm season) that exceeds the rate glucose is built through the slower photosynthesis rate? And at which temperature is it ideal to help with foliar fertilizer to make up for the reduced micronutrient absorption during cooler episodes? What are the methods that gardeners can use to improve and preserve their plant health till cool season is over to increase plant survival chances and push their plants in less ideal climate? Regarding Coconut trees in Egypt, there aren't too many and the the few that there are in Hurghada for example are still zone pushed. Although coconut trees seem to handle drought a bit better than cold.. Also in other desert countries they managed to grow plantations with irrigation such as Rajasthan a desert in India.. Also in Oman where water flows from Highlands to lowlands although the specific area in Oman isn't desert climate but rather experience between 700mm-800mm annual precipitation 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Maltese coconut project

[GottmitAlex]

From what I understand,  cocos grow in two types of places:

 

1.- where they thrive and produce coconuts. 

2.- where they survive and do not produce any fruit.

 

[Maltese coconut project]

I think it's highly subjective because it depends on the limiting factors as well. What limits fruit production in marginal climates? Watering? Prolonged cool? Prolonged low humidity? Soil fertility? It would be interesting to combine our data in the future and eliminate all factors to rule out what could possibly be the most factor that influences fruiting.  In my area the most uncontrollable factor is prolonged cool (but never freezing though 9 and 8 degrees celcius 49-46 degrees Fahrenheit at night occur in January and slightly in February). Irrigation can be done artificially due to fairly low rainfall (but not desert just between 400mm-600mm annual rainfall) and humidity is mostly high all year round due to being small islands. Fertility can be improved with fertiliser as well 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Maltese coconut project

[gurugu]

Here in Spain, La Rioja is a famous wine producing region. This year has been very dry, so production has plummeted . The same can happen to coconuts.

For palm zone pushers, the most important thing is to grow palms alive. If they don´t produce seeds, we (at least me) dont care much.

[Maltese coconut project]

Yes the challenge of growing Cocos nucifera in marginal climates is already rewarding let alone if they fruit 

[Aleitalyyy]

it would be nice to be able to make a graft like citrus fruits... to be able to put the root of a syagrus and the sprout of a cocos so that the root gives better strength and resistance... unfortunately palms are not lemons , and I think I'm talking about science fiction...

[gurugu]

8 hours ago, Maltese coconut project said:

Quite a challenging question to answer. The thing is that it's not a yes or no if they grow or not in those temperatures mentioned but rather that different temperatures stimulate different speeds of growth.  Also the biggest query is at which temperatures do they use more storaged glucose from the plant itself (the glucose the plant stored during more ideal warm season) that exceeds the rate glucose is built through the slower photosynthesis rate? And at which temperature is it ideal to help with foliar fertilizer to make up for the reduced micronutrient absorption during cooler episodes? What are the methods that gardeners can use to improve and preserve their plant health till cool season is over to increase plant survival chances and push their plants in less ideal climate? Regarding Coconut trees in Egypt, there aren't too many and the the few that there are in Hurghada for example are still zone pushed. Although coconut trees seem to handle drought a bit better than cold.. Also in other desert countries they managed to grow plantations with irrigation such as Rajasthan a desert in India.. Also in Oman where water flows from Highlands to lowlands although the specific area in Oman isn't desert climate but rather experience between 700mm-800mm annual precipitation 

Very interesting info on glucose and foliar fertilizers.

I know nothing on biology of plants, but I´ve read that plants produce glucose at daytime, in the sun, not at night, because it is when they use it to grow. If they can´t grow, it is because they can´t use that glucose either, right? Why can´t they? Because daytime temperatures aren´t high enough for glucose to be produced? or because cold temperatures at night don´t allow them to do so? For the same reason, could they use (benefit from) that foliar fertilizer at those cold temperatures? I´m afraid not.

Deciduous trees such as Quercus, Betula, etc. don´t grow from late autumn to early spring, because they lose their leaves to do the photosynthesis process, but they do survive to cold temperatures, because their bark is thick and hard enough not to let inner cells to break with cold. They go dormant. Evergreen plants keep on growing all the time, if temperature doesn´t go below 6ºC for a long period of time. But provided temperatures didn´t go below zero degrees celsius, they should also go dormant but stay alive.

That´s what happens with hardy palms, some do even if it freezes. Cocos, as a more sensitive palm, it is said, in this thread, that stops growing at a higher temperature: 12ºC, and that 8ºC can be fatal. Could they survive being above 8ºC but below 14/16ºC for long period of time, provided they were in a dry spot?. They should go dormant too, right? Correct me if I am wrong, but I´m afraid coconuts can´t go dormant not because of low temperatures  (8ºC) but because rainfall triggers some kind of mechanism that demands the palm to keep on growing, and the palm can´t because it hasn´t got enough glucose to do so. Doesn´t this process start root rotting and the death of the palm?.

It´s just a hypothesis. What do you think?

 

[Aleitalyyy]

coconut palms can't stand the cold simply because they can't stand vegetative arrest...

[GottmitAlex]

I almost forgot.

Key factor is the hole where you plant them. I removed 1m3 of "native" soil and replaced it with pure coarse sand (not fine sand. It turns into mud with water) for drainage. 

Then I applied 1" of lava sand on the top of the soil.  And mixed some into to sand. 

But as the saying goes " For every 5 dollar palm, dig a 10 dollar hole"

[Aleitalyyy]

everything is going well... always growing... and a baby bottle palm arrives to the collection after a long journey

[Aleitalyyy]

came up with an idea trying to figure out which is the most functional method possible... in my region I'll try to put it in the ground by building a greenhouse on it... if the plant doesn't die, and I'll make sure it doesn't dies, when it will be too big in the greenhouse I will let out the foliage, always leaving the trunk with roots inside the greenhouse isolating the trunk from the roof... it could be an idea so that trunk and roots are sheltered from cold and cold water... .

this will be what i will do with my palm... i don't want to waste it and watch it perish in a cold winter...

[Maltese coconut project]

11 hours ago, gurugu said:

Very interesting info on glucose and foliar fertilizers.

I know nothing on biology of plants, but I´ve read that plants produce glucose at daytime, in the sun, not at night, because it is when they use it to grow. If they can´t grow, it is because they can´t use that glucose either, right? Why can´t they? Because daytime temperatures aren´t high enough for glucose to be produced? or because cold temperatures at night don´t allow them to do so? For the same reason, could they use (benefit from) that foliar fertilizer at those cold temperatures? I´m afraid not.

Deciduous trees such as Quercus, Betula, etc. don´t grow from late autumn to early spring, because they lose their leaves to do the photosynthesis process, but they do survive to cold temperatures, because their bark is thick and hard enough not to let inner cells to break with cold. They go dormant. Evergreen plants keep on growing all the time, if temperature doesn´t go below 6ºC for a long period of time. But provided temperatures didn´t go below zero degrees celsius, they should also go dormant but stay alive.

That´s what happens with hardy palms, some do even if it freezes. Cocos, as a more sensitive palm, it is said, in this thread, that stops growing at a higher temperature: 12ºC, and that 8ºC can be fatal. Could they survive being above 8ºC but below 14/16ºC for long period of time, provided they were in a dry spot?. They should go dormant too, right? Correct me if I am wrong, but I´m afraid coconuts can´t go dormant not because of low temperatures  (8ºC) but because rainfall triggers some kind of mechanism that demands the palm to keep on growing, and the palm can´t because it hasn´t got enough glucose to do so. Doesn´t this process start root rotting and the death of the palm?.

It´s just a hypothesis. What do you think?

 

Colder temperature affects photosynthesis because colder temperature reduces enzyme activity inside the plant and reduces soil biota (the good bacteria in soil) activity. These factors may affect the transport of important macronutrients and micronutrients. Foliar fertilizer might help bypass the problem of limited macronutrients and micronutrients transport during low temperatures, therefore reducing chances of deficiencies and health issues. Of course warm climate will still be better but at least a gardener tries to tackle every factor to improve winter survival and plant health as much as possible till favourable climate returns during warmer seasons. Watering should be reduced during cooler months to reduce chances of root rot and ideally underplate should be removed if they're in pots. 

[Maltese coconut project]

Finally a beautiful sunny day after a wet November 

[gurugu]

Your rate of sprouting supermarket coconut fruits is just outstanding! 

[Maltese coconut project]

Yes but also the non germination and death rates are also high. I discarded hundreds of unviable coconuts and I lost count of how many I germinated 

[gurugu]

4 hours ago, Maltese coconut project said:

Yes but also the non germination and death rates are also high. I discarded hundreds of unviable coconuts and I lost count of how many I germinated 

Do you mean these?🙂🙂

 

9 hours ago, Aleitalyyy said:

everything is going well... always growing... and a baby bottle palm arrives to the collection after a long journey

 

I bought this one in early last February and planted it in a much bigger pot. It is the biggest cocos I have. Here, along with Hyophorbes: Lagenicaulis on the left, and Vershaffeltii on the right. I´ve tried them outdoors before, but with no luck. I plan to plant them next spring in the garden and protect them the first 2/3 years, and see what happens.

I bought this other one in late March, and planted it in a small pot (21cm), they are sold in 19cm pots, so no much difference, and to my surprise, it has been the fastest of all.

 

[Maltese coconut project]

Yes I use dehusked ones but I use propagators and heat in cool season 

[Aleitalyyy]

@gurugu hello dear , congratulations ... I read with pleasure that you are in Spain we are quite close ... I live in Liguria on the coast towards the south towards France ...

your coconut and bottle palms are beautiful... we have the same passiane and when I see happy coconut palms in pots they stimulate me to do better for mine... there is still a beccariophoenix alfredii missing from my collection...

maybe I found it here from a dealer in Italy on the internet...

let's hold on guys we will have some nice palm trees for the 2023 season

Hyophorbe lagenicaulis

[gurugu]

26 minutes ago, Maltese coconut project said:

Yes I use dehusked ones but I use propagators and heat in cool season 

 

The only one I have sprouted is this. When I bought it in the supermarket, it was already sprouting. My mistake with the others was too much water= rooting.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Aleitalyyy said:

@gurugu hello dear , congratulations ... I read with pleasure that you are in Spain we are quite close ... I live in Liguria on the coast towards the south towards France ...

your coconut and bottle palms are beautiful... we have the same passiane and when I see happy coconut palms in pots they stimulate me to do better for mine... there is still a beccariophoenix alfredii missing from my collection...

maybe I found it here from a dealer in Italy on the internet...

let's hold on guys we will have some nice palm trees for the 2023 season

Hyophorbe lagenicaulis

 

This one has been in the ground for 7 years now. It is a little bit slow here (lack of heat I´m afraid) but it is hardy. I´ve got other two in the gorund too.

 

At this garden center in Murcia, Spagna, you can find it, though for the time being it is out of stock.

https://babypalms.eu/?s=beccariophoenix&post_type=product

[Maltese coconut project]

I am surprised that that is 7 years old. Your summer is very similar to Malta.. Mine grow really fast in summer (although I water them even twice daily in summer) 

[Aleitalyyy]

Remind me what part of Spain you are in? it seems to me a very bad alfredii to be planted in spain because even in the northernmost part of spain it should grow without problems ... it probably suffers from drought and all that grass around and dry leaves are not good ...

 

[Maltese coconut project]

But having said that I am also surprised that in Northern Spain it survived 7 years.. Very impressive.. Which part of Spain do you live in? 

[Maltese coconut project]

Wait, is that Cocos nucifera or Beccariophoenix alfredii? 

[GottmitAlex]

9 minutes ago, Maltese coconut project said:

Wait, is that Cocos nucifera or Beccariophoenix alfredii? 

That's an alfie

[Maltese coconut project]

I see.. Meanwhile here night time temperatures (13.5 degrees celcius or 56 degrees Fahrenheit) are quite chill with very high humidity (above 90%), leaves look wet 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Maltese coconut project

[gurugu]

57 minutes ago, Maltese coconut project said:

I am surprised that that is 7 years old. Your summer is very similar to Malta.. Mine grow really fast in summer (although I water them even twice daily in summer) 

 

43 minutes ago, Aleitalyyy said:

Remind me what part of Spain you are in? it seems to me a very bad alfredii to be planted in spain because even in the northernmost part of spain it should grow without problems ... it probably suffers from drought and all that grass around and dry leaves are not good ...

 

 

33 minutes ago, Maltese coconut project said:

But having said that I am also surprised that in Northern Spain it survived 7 years.. Very impressive.. Which part of Spain do you live in? 

That Beccariophoenix alffredii was trasplanted to today´s place just summer 2021. It has suffered quite a lot, as well as all my palms have, after being trasplanted. I even lost Rhopalotylis sapida and baueri (which was about to flower, a real pity), Brahea armata, Trithrinax acanthcoma, all of them with about a meter of clear trunk already. They all are still in bad shape, though they became setting new leaves even that summer, and have set new more leaves this summer.

I know of other Spanish palm enthusiasts that are growing Beccariophenix, and their palms are in much better shape and taller than mine. Palms here don´t suffer from drought, except this year, which has been very dry, because all along the north coast of Spain, where I am, receives 1.200 litres of rain a year. Being July the driest month with 56 litres, and November the wettest with 150 litres. All these palms are in a very windy place, so they suffer a lot too, until the garden develops in 3/4 years´ time.

All the coastline is supposed to be a 10a USDA zone. But summers are very mild. Averages for July and August are only 20º/21ºC, (24ºc max/ 17ºC min), so nothing to do with Malta. Winters are very mild too, with averages for January and February between 9/10 degrees (13º/14ºC max/ 6º/7ºC min). Since it is a very mountainous region, you can find a lot of different microclimates. All in all it is considered a warm temperate oceanic climate. Wet subtropical in terms of winter temperatures, but not in summer.