Cool article on the Gulf Stream

[Palmaceae]

Here is a good article on the Gulf Stream and how it is changing and how it will affect weather such as the SE USA, cool graphics too.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/03/02/climate/atlantic-ocean-climate-change.html

[bubba]

It is unfortunate that anything in the NY Times can merely be accepted as commentary...

[Collectorpalms]

We were discussing this happening sometime way way in the future, in graduate school 20 years ago. Sure would be rough for Northern Europe was what I took away from that.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[bubba]

So was Ben Franklin. Humanity presently overestimates their effect on the world. Science fills the prior void of information (4 billion years) that now has become virtually infinite, with assumptions that are conclusions based conjecture that constitute commentary...My opinion...

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, bubba said:

So was Ben Franklin. Humanity presently overestimates their effect on the world. Science fills the prior void of information (4 billion years) that now has become virtually infinite, with assumptions that are conclusions based conjecture that constitute commentary...My opinion...

Opposite,  a chunk of humanity also horrifically under- estimates our blatant, negative effects on everything -else- around us, that we are part of, not the overlord of.. and often intentionally pretends that the consequences of that abuse aren't happening to fulfill some hollow, shallow, self serving sense of purpose. 

The good thing is Mother nature always makes sure us mere humans get the hint we're not in charge -of anything-.

[bubba]

I am proposing a thought experiment in this response. Those of us in states trending blue will be considered the Zone 10 non-mediterranean folks. Those of us in states trending red will be considered Zone 10 mediterranean folks. Those of us not in Zone 10 climates will be simply along for the ride. No political themes or conundrums will be tolerated. For purposes of this discussion, totalitarian and non-totalitarian regimes will be expressly excepted from any political implications.

This is a very large planet. Should the US and Europe opt to follow protocols that will cause economic havoc in the US and Europe (shut down use of natural gas, fossil fuels and undertake energy policies with uncertain true effects/wind turbines, solar-see rolling blackouts in CA.), the loss of jobs and national security will have a consequence that no human living under non-totalitarian conditions will understand. When our personal freedom is lost because of our petulant misunderstanding, it will be too late.
 

Most folks on this forum have never had to consider the loss of personal freedom, which does occur in totalitarian societies. Quite frankly, the loss of personal freedom is considered so unlikely by most on this forum that it is not included in the thought process as a consideration (WW2?).

When we shut down the machine, do you truly expect that the competing totalitarian societies will not take full advantage? Not one of them has agreed to abide by these conditions and without the entire world holding hands on this ginormous undertaking, our sacrifices will have no effect whatsoever on the alleged draconian consequences promised by our grant induced scientific community in this arena.

What do we want? Do we go back to log cabins, no air travel, no irrigation and horse drawn buggies etc? No more military or police forces? Do you truly believe that these totalitarian regimes will not impose their will on us? They have openly stated it with braggadocio as their intention. Do you not take them seriously? If you do not, you have simply removed yourself from reality and must assume WW2 was a mere fantasy that never occurred.

Unfortunately, our society which presently continues the illusion that we still retain personal freedom, has so indulged a large percentage of us that we no longer understand or appreciate personal freedom’s meaning. Instead a large percentage of folks prefer to hold hands and sing hymns in the pretend theater of I think I can. This brand of thought process is a simple extension of the “ let them eat cake “ petulance that preceded the guillotine.

Every decent human being wants to live in a  clean and non-polluted environment. We are all willing to make logical sacrifices to insure this occurs. This, however, does become a balance. When do you propose that we give up our personal freedom and live in a totalitarian regime in order to meet guidelines promulgated by a scientific community that is propelled largely by it’s own desire to flourish. My personal belief is that we as humans greatly over estimate our significance and impact on this planet. That stated, unless the entire planet holds hands on this undertaking, it is a futile act. It only guarantees that the totalitarian regimes that have openly announced their intention to replace us will succeed notwithstanding our petulant let them eat cake position.

What do you think Zone 10 folks? Remember no political commentary and you non-Zone 10 folks just stay on the sidelines.

[Silas_Sancona]

46 minutes ago, bubba said:

I am proposing a thought experiment in this response. Those of us in states trending blue will be considered the Zone 10 non-mediterranean folks. Those of us in states trending red will be considered Zone 10 mediterranean folks. Those of us not in Zone 10 climates will be simply along for the ride. No political themes or conundrums will be tolerated.

What do you think Zone 10 folks? Remember no political commentary and you non-Zone 10 folks just stay on the sidelines.

The effects of what we're doing to the environment effect all.. not just people in a particular zone, or particular part of the world...  Therefore all  have a say ..There are no " sidelines to hang out around while people in X zone speak/discuss " Nor should anyone stay there,  or be told they should...  ..In 2021, No such thing as just  " along for the ride "  either.

" Those of us in states leaning/trending... Red?/Blue? " sounds pretty political, from the start, to me..   Caring for the planet you/ your kids live on?  Far from " Totalitarian "..

Anyone who would willfully choose to Abuse this planet, simply because they're terrified of progress/ stuck in out dated ways is what should be ignored, ..not Science, or how the world around us works and how everything within it is intimately connected. 

Looking forward to watching oil dependency disappear off into the sunset -in my lifetime- and exploring many miles of dirt roads in my Electric 4 Runner ( they'll be here sooner rather than later )/ Powering everything i own on Solar, ..that just keeps getting more efficient.   That  is freedom, and a win for all..




 

[Collectorpalms]

This thread was about the Gulf Stream. Because I took graduate level climatology, and this was discussed 20 years ago it had nothing to do with the NYT. But....Somehow, there is always someone that has to make climate change political. I left another board because there was always politics. If people want to keep their Neanderthal thinking, that’s fine. How did that turn out for them? 

[AnTonY]

On 3/6/2021 at 8:41 AM, Silas_Sancona said:

Opposite,  a chunk of humanity also horrifically under- estimates our blatant, negative effects on everything -else- around us, that we are part of, not the overlord of.. and often intentionally pretends that the consequences of that abuse aren't happening to fulfill some hollow, shallow, self serving sense of purpose. 

The good thing is Mother nature always makes sure us mere humans get the hint we're not in charge -of anything-.

If you believe Ray Kurzweil, there is a healthy chance that the tables will totally be turned as soon as ~2045.