Zones 11-13

[ahosey01]

Noticed that in Puerto Rico, there are multiple climate zones, ranging from 11-13.

Generally speaking, if you make the jump from 8b to 9a, the number of palms that are probably long-term survivors in your area increases significantly.  Likewise true with the jump from 9b to 10a.  However - I'm curious, is there much advantage in terms of species that are long-term survivors between zones 11 and 12 or 12 and 13?

[Jimbean]

14 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

Noticed that in Puerto Rico, there are multiple climate zones, ranging from 11-13.

Generally speaking, if you make the jump from 8b to 9a, the number of palms that are probably long-term survivors in your area increases significantly.  Likewise true with the jump from 9b to 10a.  However - I'm curious, is there much advantage in terms of species that are long-term survivors between zones 11 and 12 or 12 and 13?

As far as I can tell, not really.  Old USDA maps did not make a distinction after zone 11 for probably this reason. 

The one difference that I have noticed, besides a few plants that grow better in zones 12 and 13, is that in zone 11 you sill have the tropical/mediterranean distinction (Florida Keys versus San Diego).

[Xenon]

There are some really really ultratropical plants that don't like any exposure to 40s or even 50s like durian. But in a lowland tropical 11b or 12a, any "cold" would be so brief that you could still grow even the most ultra tropicals with maybe some damage in a once a century event. I know Cancún recorded several consecutive nights in the low 50s back in 2010 which can shock some very tender ultra tropicals (especially from maritime SE Asia and the equatorial South Pacifc where record lows are above ~65F). 

Of course the distance between 10a and 11a is much much much greater than the distance between 11a and 12a. 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Xenon

[tacobender]

The zones don't really represent what the climate is. Just low temps. For instance, my neighborhood hasn't gotten below 50°F in over 20 years. I think it is zone 12 maybe. Still to cool for lipstick palms. I tried. The extreme summer heat and humidity kills areca vestiana. I tried.

 

[Yunder Wækraus]

1 hour ago, tacobender said:

The zones don't really represent what the climate is. Just low temps. For instance, my neighborhood hasn't gotten below 50°F in over 20 years. I think it is zone 12 maybe. Still to cool for lipstick palms. I tried. The extreme summer heat and humidity kills areca vestiana. I tried.

 

It regularly gets down to the 50s here in the Cairns, Australia area, with localized dips to just below 50. Lipstick palms are everywhere (have one planted by the developer in my current house, and had two in the home we rented till last year). I’ve only seen consistent damage to their fronds due to cold on the street trees planted in the lane divider on James Cook HW and Mulgrave Rd, where I presume the lack of protective vegetation due to being surrounded by road allowed colder air to channel past then. Even then, the damage was negligible. I’m guessing these palms are  fine down to the mid to low 40s so long as it’s for just a brief period at night and the next day has plenty of warmth and strong sun, as we do here. (We’re at 16.8° S)

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, tacobender said:

The zones don't really represent what the climate is. Just low temps. For instance, my neighborhood hasn't gotten below 50°F in over 20 years. I think it is zone 12 maybe. Still to cool for lipstick palms. I tried. The extreme summer heat and humidity kills areca vestiana. I tried.

 

Agree w/ you.. Overall, suggested zones are " on target " ..That said, they really don't exactly take into account the other, very important variables that play out in X local area. Your example is a perfect reflection of that.. While the climate in/ around Guaymas/San Carlos might be in zone 12.. or super close, other local  factors like the intense summer heat/ lack of consistent rainfall limit what " zone 12 " plants will survive compared to zone 12 in Puerto Rico, the Yucatan, or other parts of the world.

Chandler, at least where i'm located here, straddles 10a most years.. Alamos sits just a touch warmer.  While both places get quite hot, suspect it would be easier to grow more sun-tender tropicals there.. most important difference is they get much more rainfall /  very little in winter, much like FL. most years..  even during bad years ..compared to us. Their winter lows also don't vary quite as much as they can here and the town itself is much smaller/ surrounded by vast stretches of undeveloped land compared to Chandler, or even Tucson.

Your Desert Rose look fantastic.. Too hot / dry in summer, & just cool enough, -long enough- here to present challenges in growing them -to specimen size, in the ground. ..And the distance between both places really isn't that far. Roughly the same distance between San Jose, and San Diego. Winter challenges to growing them here might lessen ( less cool spells/nights, perhaps drier = less cold/ cold wet soil related damage ), but the summer challenges won't.. or might take longer to lean " more favorable ", if they do at all.

 

[tacobender]

4 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Agree w/ you.. Overall, suggested zones are " on target " ..That said, they really don't exactly take into account the other, very important variables that play out in X local area. Your example is a perfect reflection of that.. While the climate in/ around Guaymas/San Carlos might be in zone 12.. or super close, other local  factors like the intense summer heat/ lack of consistent rainfall limit what " zone 12 " plants will survive compared to zone 12 in Puerto Rico, the Yucatan, or other parts of the world.

Chandler, at least where i'm located here, straddles 10a most years.. Alamos sits just a touch warmer.  While both places get quite hot, suspect it would be easier to grow more sun-tender tropicals there.. most important difference is they get much more rainfall /  very little in winter, much like FL. most years..  even during bad years ..compared to us. Their winter lows also don't vary quite as much as they can here and the town itself is much smaller/ surrounded by vast stretches of undeveloped land compared to Chandler, or even Tucson.

Your Desert Rose look fantastic.. Too hot / dry in summer, & just cool enough, -long enough- here to present challenges in growing them -to specimen size, in the ground. ..And the distance between both places really isn't that far. Roughly the same distance between San Jose, and San Diego. Winter challenges to growing them here might lessen ( less cool spells/nights, perhaps drier = less cold/ cold wet soil related damage ), but the summer challenges won't.. or might take longer to lean " more favorable ", if they do at all.

 

The humidity is high here most days. Occasionally North winds blow from desert and can damage plants with high heat and low humidity. Feels like Phoenix for a day or so. 

What really is difficult for some plants is 2 to 3 months of nearly 90° lows and over 100° days with 70% or more humidity.  Steam bath.

[Silas_Sancona]

4 minutes ago, tacobender said:

The humidity is high here most days. Occasionally North winds blow from desert and can damage plants with high heat and low humidity. Feels like Phoenix for a day or so. 

What really is difficult for some plants is 2 to 3 months of nearly 90° lows and over 100° days with 70% or more humidity.  Steam bath.

That's a good point. Nights near/above 90 are bad enough here, can't imagine constant 70-80% humidity on top of that, after being in the high 90s/100s during the day.

[Aceraceae]

On 3/3/2021 at 10:21 AM, Xenon said:

There are some really really ultratropical plants that don't like any exposure to 40s or even 50s like durian. But in a lowland tropical 11b or 12a, any "cold" would be so brief that you could still grow even the most ultra tropicals with maybe some damage in a once a century event. I know Cancún recorded several consecutive nights in the low 50s back in 2010 which can shock some very tender ultra tropicals (especially from maritime SE Asia and the equatorial South Pacifc where record lows are above ~65F). 

Of course the distance between 10a and 11a is much much much greater than the distance between 11a and 12a. 

Dubai, uttar pradesh, Saudi arabia, dallol, push desert heat with very high humidity levels (110 with dewpoints over 70). 

Pacific Islands are zone 14 some even with record lows above 70.