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Russian Palms at Their Limits


Alex High

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23 hours ago, Teegurr said:

Cool to see palm interest there.

It's definitely a filibusta, the leaves look very robusta-like, with the trunk being a bit thick due to filifera genes.

So P. dactylifera would be a good candidate for Denov, right? 

The interest in palms is increasing, palms becoming popular both in the urban street greenery and in private green spaces. Trachies, Washies and marginal Chamaeropses is what I usually see in my 8A zone, the southern regions enjoy longer summers and shorter winters if there's any so they have wider options. I think dacties would be techncially a good option for Denov, I'm nearly sure I will find some more or less mature specimens when I visit that region in person. I have doubts, however, that there's any serious commercial potential because local markets are flooded now with cheap dates from Kerman province of Iran ($2 per kilo), and they are not that bad...

Filibusta is definitely becoming the palm #2 here, shifting slowly bullet-proof and sustainable Trachies.

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Edited by MSX
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On 3/20/2021 at 6:18 PM, Palmfarmer said:

This is kind of offtopic, but I have a bit hard time understanding why there is so few palms along the western part of the Black sea. Countries I am thinking about are Bulgaria and Romania. I tried finding some palms on these coasts but all i found was palms in containers, not even trachies in the ground! anyone have some palm photos for those regions or are perhaps from there? 

Hi, I am living in Burgas, Bulgaria, and there are much more exotic plants than anyone thinks, I have a whole album of own photos here https://de.share-your-photo.com/f8429890f2/album, and the climate is a solid 9a here, very similar to the area of Ancona and Pescara in Italy, and also to Thessaloniki or Istanbul. I have my own almost professional weather station, and the values are not worse than in the North of Greece here. The fact that there are comparably less palm trees than in other countries is that here most people hate everything which is even remotely exotic from plants, that is the only reason, not that the climate is bad. Also the fauna is that of the Mediterranean coasts, we have flamingos, pelicans, scorpions, geckos, Mediterranean scolopenders etc.

Edited by Berthold Kynast
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6 hours ago, Berthold Kynast said:

Hi, I am living in Burgas, Bulgaria, and there are much more exotic plants than anyone thinks, I have a whole album of own photos here https://de.share-your-photo.com/f8429890f2/album, and the climate is a solid 9a here, very similar to the area of Ancona and Pescara in Italy, and also to Thessaloniki or Istanbul. I have my own almost professional weather station, and the values are not worse than in the North of Greece here. The fact that there are comparably less palm trees than in other countries is that here most people hate everything which is even remotely exotic from plants, that is the only reason, not that the climate is bad. Also the fauna is that of the Mediterranean coasts, we have flamingos, pelicans, scorpions, geckos, Mediterranean scolopenders etc.

Can I see the climate data? 

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Sabal Palmetto thriving in Uzbekistan (pics not mine)

I thought these don't grow here in cold arid desert climate at all!

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Edited by MSX
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1 hour ago, MSX said:

Sabal Palmetto thriving in Uzbekistan (pics not mine)

I thought these don't grow here in cold arid desert climate at all!

Sabal palmetto will grow in next to any climate that stays above a certain temperature threshold provided they get enough water.  It looks great!

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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  • 4 months later...

Seeing palms trucked like that reminds me of seeing them all enter the outdoor markets in McAllen.

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Lucas

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On 1/21/2021 at 10:02 PM, Palmfarmer said:

Wow what a beatiful city

 

On 1/21/2021 at 10:02 PM, Palmfarmer said:

Wow what a beatiful city

How are the Palm Trees trimmed, in the Ukraine?

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On 3/22/2021 at 8:51 PM, Teegurr said:

Those places actually aren't that warm - for example, Burgas in Southern Bulgaria on the coast has an average winter low (not minimum) of -1c (29.5f). Besides Crimea, those countries can barely support Trachies and Chamaerops as they are in hardiness zones 7 and 8.

This is my garden on the south Black sea coast of Bulgaria. Along with Trachies, some Washigtonias, Cycas and Butia thrive there, Hardy Musa bananas, agave, olive etc.. Recently there are a lot of palms planted. It's ridiculous but plants and gardening were also subject of the Soviet / Russian propaganda as it was trendy in the 60-tiest Soviet Union to become self-sufficient and to provide its own economy with southern agricultures, so many attempts were done as to be spread citrus and another  subtropical cultures further to the northern latitudes pushing the limits of  hardiness; In regard of these Bulgaria were suppressed in growing such a cultures in order not to surpass the Scientific  "achievements" (Michurin, etc.)Even now I figure out that a lot of climate charts in Wikipedia for some Black sea stations are occasionally corrupted in real-time so to create the impressing among foreign tourists for more northerly climate and to disrupted the tourist stream to Bulgaria in favor  of  Turkey and their own Black sea resorts. I have  published in Wikipedia actual climate data many times with quotation the National meteorology Institute , but even with reliable information later the date were dropped down by "someone" ... It's true that the climate for the N-West part of the sea is temperate with some freezes but we could consider the threshold limitation factors north of  Cape Kaliakra which is 300 km north of my plot and this is true for the Romanian and  Ukraine coast mostly because of the openness to the Siberian incursions and due to the current streams and overall circulations north to south in these area.

Ahtopol avarage-high-low-temperature-c-en.gif

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  • 3 months later...

@MSX There is no way those Robusta's would have experienced -23F / -10F and survived there in 2013. Either it didn't get as cold as that figure, or they were protected somehow. Or it was planted big more recently, after the 2013 cold event. I remember seeing pure Robusta's posted on here that were killed stone dead from -12C / 10F in Houston during the Feb 2021 freeze.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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On 6/23/2021 at 7:20 AM, MSX said:

  

The interest in palms is increasing, palms becoming popular both in the urban street greenery and in private green spaces. Trachies, Washies and marginal Chamaeropses is what I usually see in my 8A zone, the southern regions enjoy longer summers and shorter winters if there's any so they have wider options. I think dacties would be techncially a good option for Denov, I'm nearly sure I will find some more or less mature specimens when I visit that region in person. I have doubts, however, that there's any serious commercial potential because local markets are flooded now with cheap dates from Kerman province of Iran ($2 per kilo), and they are not that bad...

Filibusta is definitely becoming the palm #2 here, shifting slowly bullet-proof and sustainable Trachies.

IMG_20210524_103721.jpg

IMG_20210524_103820.jpg

IMG_20210524_104136.jpg

IMG_20210529_111000.jpg

 

When all those Robustas eventually die, hit me up for some of the hardiest proven cold hardy Washingtonia seeds out of Texas. Or better yet, get a head start if you have a greenhouse. 

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Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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23 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@MSX There is no way those Robusta's would have experienced -23F / -10F and survived there in 2013. Either it didn't get as cold as that figure, or they were protected somehow. Or it was planted big more recently, after the 2013 cold event. I remember seeing pure Robusta's posted on here that were killed stone dead from -12C / 10F in Houston during the Feb 2021 freeze.

Here is some that survived -5f in 2011. Alive still.  And yes, we have several that survived back to back nights of -10f.

Las Cruces, NM. Oh, and the station that recorded(NMSU) is mere blocks away.  All your bull on multiple posts with protection, replacement, didn't get as cold, protection, station is incorrect.....is disgusting.

In fact you seem to push a Texas thing without evidence.  Taking temperatures at face value even when the palms shown are sheltered out of the wind and even snug against multi story buildings. 

Hey, maybe at the end of the day, we could learn from the amazing survival of palms in places like Uzbekistan and New Mexico. Doing things at temperatures never documented in history.  Just the mere fact they are growing in the places they are, is a story upon itself. 

Or we can gawk over zone 8 palms growing in z9.

Las Cruces NM(z8) pics from 2016, 5 years post the 2011 freeze of -5f.  That -5 is official, regardless of your misguided opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hi! If Palm trees could be find that North in the russian black coast, How's possible that just at the other side in Romania seems there isn't a single one? For the moment I've just seen few of them always in a container. I'm aware that in Crimea there are plenty of them and surprisingly even in the Ukrainian city of Chornomorsk https://images.app.goo.gl/1oXpbZATWzBUTdxt6

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9 minutes ago, Javier737 said:

Hi! If Palm trees could be find that North in the russian black coast, How's possible that just at the other side in Romania seems there isn't a single one? For the moment I've just seen few of them always in a container. I'm aware that in Crimea there are plenty of them and surprisingly even in the Ukrainian city of Chornomorsk https://images.app.goo.gl/1oXpbZATWzBUTdxt6

Welcome to PalmTalk!  Good to see such a large interest in growing palms in the Black Sea area. 

As far as Romania, I checked Wikipedia for climate information for Constanța.  It appears that the city's weather has a few months with record lows below 0F.  That said, the climate there has experienced almost unprecedented warmth in the last 20 years, so it might be worth giving it a roll of the dice.

1903672621_20221030_Romania_Constana.jpg.881a68cef6523c789990837cee31fe2c.jpg

For comparison, Sochi on the other side of the sea hasn't recorded a temperature below 0F, so that probably contributes to why you see many more palms on the other side of the Black Sea.

20221030_Russia_Sochi.jpg.3c86ee45d107b7c333d49b2580d1cf59.jpg

 

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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On 3/20/2021 at 6:18 PM, Palmfarmer said:

This is kind of offtopic, but I have a bit hard time understanding why there is so few palms along the western part of the Black sea. Countries I am thinking about are Bulgaria and Romania. I tried finding some palms on these coasts but all i found was palms in containers, not even trachies in the ground! anyone have some palm photos for those regions or are perhaps from there? 

Hi, I German,  I live in Burgas, Bulgaria since 2014, and I can tell you, the main reason is that especially the gardening departments of the cities here "hate" all types of southern looking plants. In contrast to this, private gardens contain a lot.  On one side, they hate them and say, they "don't grow here", on the other hand, they let even date palms, Oleanders, Washingtonia palms in pots and completely unprotected in winter, and even then they do well. And no, the climate is not just zone 7 or 8, it is even 9a in the southern part of the coast in the South of Stara Planina. Here is my online photo album where I post all pictures of Mediterranean plants which I find here in the area: https://de.share-your-photo.com/20e6a0c866 The climate is much better than the one of Crimea, but you cannot compare the South of the Romanian coast with here at all, and also not the North of the Bulgarian coast. Here in Burgas we had not even one single snow flake in the air the last 4 winters, which was not the case in the North of the Bulgarian coast and even less in Romania. I have my own almost professional weather station here, and that shows almost no difference compared to the Northern Greek coast around Kavala. Burgas, values of the last 30 years https://www.weather-atlas.com/en/bulgaria/burgas-climate and Kavala here: https://www.weather-atlas.com/en/greece/kavala-climate. Also, we have all year round flamingos and pelicans here directly in front of our balcony in the big salt lagoon in Burgas. Also on this link here, the Southern part of the Bulgarian coast is clearly classified as part of the Mediterranean climate belt, when you scroll down to the big map on this website https://www.umweltschutz-vegetation-agrar.de/information/mediterran/Klima/Klimaklassifikation.html#Halbmond Have no time to post photos now, maybe there is also already an own thread on Bulgaria, but in the next days I can do it.

Edited by Berthold Kynast
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On 11/3/2022 at 1:08 PM, Berthold Kynast said:

Also, we have all year round flamingos and pelicans here directly in front of our balcony in the big salt lagoon in Burgas.

This is a clear sign that you have climate similar to Mediterranean. Even better because you can´t find pelicans in southern Spain, nor in other Mediterranean countries.

What puzzles me are those minimum summer temperatures. They are higher than in Málaga, which is a 10b USDA zone. Amazing! The same can be seen all around the coastal Black Sea cities, such as Sochi, Batumi, Samsun, Sujumi, etc. I guess it is because of the high sea temperature, right? 👍

The more to the west, the milder in winter due to the Caucasian mountain range at the back, stopping northern cold winds. That´s why you can see so many palms in Sochi and Sujumi.

What about Istambul?

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On 11/3/2022 at 12:08 PM, Berthold Kynast said:

Hi, I German,  I live in Burgas, Bulgaria since 2014, and I can tell you, the main reason is that especially the gardening departments of the cities here "hate" all types of southern looking plants. In contrast to this, private gardens contain a lot.  On one side, they hate them and say, they "don't grow here", on the other hand, they let even date palms, Oleanders, Washingtonia palms in pots and completely unprotected in winter, and even then they do well. And no, the climate is not just zone 7 or 8, it is even 9a in the southern part of the coast in the South of Stara Planina. Here is my online photo album where I post all pictures of Mediterranean plants which I find here in the area: https://de.share-your-photo.com/20e6a0c866 The climate is much better than the one of Crimea, but you cannot compare the South of the Romanian coast with here at all, and also not the North of the Bulgarian coast. Here in Burgas we had not even one single snow flake in the air the last 4 winters, which was not the case in the North of the Bulgarian coast and even less in Romania. I have my own almost professional weather station here, and that shows almost no difference compared to the Northern Greek coast around Kavala. Burgas, values of the last 30 years https://www.weather-atlas.com/en/bulgaria/burgas-climate and Kavala here: https://www.weather-atlas.com/en/greece/kavala-climate. Also, we have all year round flamingos and pelicans here directly in front of our balcony in the big salt lagoon in Burgas. Also on this link here, the Southern part of the Bulgarian coast is clearly classified as part of the Mediterranean climate belt, when you scroll down to the big map on this website https://www.umweltschutz-vegetation-agrar.de/information/mediterran/Klima/Klimaklassifikation.html#Halbmond Have no time to post photos now, maybe there is also already an own thread on Bulgaria, but in the next days I can do it.

Sounds like the UK. We have zone 10 parts and lots of people don't know exotics do well. The council's normally only plant very hardy exotics instead of planting Washingtonia, queen's, nikaus and king palms which would do well along the coast and in central London. Personally I think the council should line the street of London and the warmer parts of the south with cacti, eucalyptus, bougainvillea, date palms, Washingtonia, yuccas, jacarandas and Norfolk Island pines. With nikaus, queen's, kentias and king palms in more protected spots.

Edited by Foxpalms
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This neglected and unprotected washy survided 70 hrs below freezing with the low -9C(16F) in Nov 2020 during the covid lockdown.

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Trunk cut in spring 2021.

April, 2021

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November 2021

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November 2022

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some washies

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Edited by MSX
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  • 1 year later...
On 11/3/2022 at 1:08 PM, Berthold Kynast said:

Hi, I German,  I live in Burgas, Bulgaria since 2014, and I can tell you, the main reason is that especially the gardening departments of the cities here "hate" all types of southern looking plants. In contrast to this, private gardens contain a lot.  On one side, they hate them and say, they "don't grow here", on the other hand, they let even date palms, Oleanders, Washingtonia palms in pots and completely unprotected in winter, and even then they do well. And no, the climate is not just zone 7 or 8, it is even 9a in the southern part of the coast in the South of Stara Planina. Here is my online photo album where I post all pictures of Mediterranean plants which I find here in the area: https://de.share-your-photo.com/20e6a0c866 The climate is much better than the one of Crimea, but you cannot compare the South of the Romanian coast with here at all, and also not the North of the Bulgarian coast. Here in Burgas we had not even one single snow flake in the air the last 4 winters, which was not the case in the North of the Bulgarian coast and even less in Romania. I have my own almost professional weather station here, and that shows almost no difference compared to the Northern Greek coast around Kavala. Burgas, values of the last 30 years https://www.weather-atlas.com/en/bulgaria/burgas-climate and Kavala here: https://www.weather-atlas.com/en/greece/kavala-climate. Also, we have all year round flamingos and pelicans here directly in front of our balcony in the big salt lagoon in Burgas. Also on this link here, the Southern part of the Bulgarian coast is clearly classified as part of the Mediterranean climate belt, when you scroll down to the big map on this website https://www.umweltschutz-vegetation-agrar.de/information/mediterran/Klima/Klimaklassifikation.html#Halbmond Have no time to post photos now, maybe there is also already an own thread on Bulgaria, but in the next days I can do it.

Now tat's not right, climate in Burgas is a 8a. Due to climate change Burgas has become much warmer, especially in the last 15 years. In winters temperatures drop down at least during few nights to -8 or even to -10, which is still quite common (not the last 5 winters though). Actually we have had hardly snow flakes in SW Germany during the last 5 winters too, It has become way to mild in the last winters. And close to the border to Switzerland we have now many Trachy, figs and even some olives, eucalyptus and oleanders. It would say, climate of Burgas is close to Venice in Italy, which also not mediteranean but close to it. The only difference is, that Venice doesn't have as extreme minimum temperatures as Burgas, which is because it much more western and away from the siberian influence of southeast europe and of course the alps. That's why they have more mediteranean plants there such as Oleanders, Stone Oaks, Olives at every corner. It's also a fact, that everywhere in Europe the avarage temperatures have risen dramatically. So if you compare two localities, you've got to chose the same decades, like Burgas used to have an yearly average temperature of 12.3°C (1961-1991) and is now close to 14°, the last year 2023 even 15°C, which is abnormally warm. As a comparison: Venice has an avarage temperature of 13.3 (1961-1991), since 2000 average is constantly above 14°C, nowadays frequently around 15°C.  Sochi has much milder winters because its sheltered by the caucasian mountains from the northern winds. Sochi is close to Ancona or Rijeka.

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