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Any sabal domingensis x palmetto?


EastCanadaTropicals

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Sabal domingensis has a similar native range to carusiaum so I expect a few hybrids.

Nothing to say here. 

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They might have different flowering times, like minor and palmetto, they are both native in the same areas but don’t hybridize (other than maybe Sabal brazoria, if they really are minor x palmetto). 

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PalmTreeDude

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3 minutes ago, PalmTreeDude said:

They might have different flowering times, like minor and palmetto, they are both native in the same areas but don’t hybridize (other than maybe Sabal brazoria, if they really are minor x palmetto). 

what about carusiaum x palmetto then?

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Same problem - differing flowering times.

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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56 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Same problem - differing flowering times.

So carusiaum flowers at a different time than palmetto as well?

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yes

Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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33 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

yes

Then why is there carusiaum x palmetto but not domingensis x palmetto?

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I don't know. I'm not a geneticist. But it might go back to the flowering issue of these 3 species - timing

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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On 1/15/2021 at 6:56 PM, EastCanadaTropicals said:

Sabal domingensis has a similar native range to carusiaum so I expect a few hybrids.

Some say s. Riverside is a domengensis x palmetto hybrid . 

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13 hours ago, RJ said:

Some say s. Riverside is a domengensis x palmetto hybrid . 

Hmmm... might be.

Nothing to say here. 

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13 hours ago, RJ said:

Some say s. Riverside is a domengensis x palmetto hybrid . 

Or even a bermudana x palmetto.

Nothing to say here. 

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if there was a way to create palms thinking its different seasons then you can hybridize all you want

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

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I couldn’t begin to tell you about Sabal flowering cycles; however, it would be feasible to store male pollen to pollinate desired female flowers later on. 
whether the task is easy, is not the same; but it should be feasible. 

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2 hours ago, RyManUtah said:

I couldn’t begin to tell you about Sabal flowering cycles; however, it would be feasible to store male pollen to pollinate desired female flowers later on. 
whether the task is easy, is not the same; but it should be feasible. 

Definitely. But for Sabals? I just don't see a demand for interspecies Sabal hybrids to warrant the effort. Perhaps an altruistic palm afficionado with multiple Sabal spp, lots of time on his hands who likes climbing ladders............

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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The Sabal species I am looking for: Sabal lougheediana from Bonaire in the Caribbean. A species, not a unicorn crossed with a zebra hybrid. Rare and endangered. I hope seeds will be offered some day.

https://www.dutchcaribbeanspecies.org/content/new-and-endangered-palm-species-described-bonaire

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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20 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Definitely. But for Sabals? I just don't see a demand for interspecies Sabal hybrids to warrant the effort

I think there could be a lot of demand for crosses if they combined cold tolerance with greater size.  Consider the demand for S. brazoriensis, which might be a hybrid of S. minor and S. palmetto. I think other crosses with S. minor would be particularly promising, with minimal use of ladders. But, it would still be very tedious work because of the small, bisexual flowers.  It would require removing anthers before the stigma is receptive and then bagging the flowers to prevent stray pollen. 

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Here is a possible Sabal hybrid that Don Hodel called Sabal “Long Peduncle” in his series on Sabal in the August 2013 issue of Southeastern Palms (it is free online, just google it). He thinks it might be a hybrid of S. palmetto.  There are a couple growing in Elysian Park in Los Angeles. When I took this photo in early 2020 (pre Covid) there were only a few ripe seeds, but I succeeded in finding a few. I am testing a couple of small seedling outside this winter, but so far have only been tested to 21 F. So far, no damage.

 IMG_20191229_120205075_HDR.thumb.jpg.8c4f27a8c4f40765faf4e3ea91729213.jpg

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21 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

The Sabal species I am looking for: Sabal lougheediana from Bonaire in the Caribbean. A species, not a unicorn crossed with a zebra hybrid. Rare and endangered. I hope seeds will be offered some day.

https://www.dutchcaribbeanspecies.org/content/new-and-endangered-palm-species-described-bonaire

The trunks on those Sabals look amazing.  In particular, Figure 3B from the attached article really caught my eye.  I would imagine constant wind exposure probably had something to do with that shape; regardless, that trunk shape is awesome.  Almost seems like it has a bottle-shape.

56622-185755-1-PB.pdf

Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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Great, if someone is willing to do it. I believe I'm seeing a quantum leap in the perception of Sabals and other native US palms in the 13 years since I joined PalmTalk. That's a wonderful thing. Back then Sabals were at best overlooked, at worst scorned. The inclusion of a Coldhardy subforum was a definite plus in opening up a conduit of info to more "prosaic" species of palms. But nurseries and garden centers have, for the most part, been slow to non-existent to consider these palms marketable. They stick to what they trust will always sell: the usual suspects shipped by tractor trailer from SFL. To establish nurseries that feature the myriad Sabals will take money and time - lots of both. To undertake hyridization will take advanced education, expertise and testing. So, when/if all that is done will there be a market for the results? How many Sabals will you buy? How much would you pay?

If the market is truly there, the results will come. But not in my lifetime.

Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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1 minute ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

The trunks on those Sabals look amazing.  In particular, Figure 3B from the attached article really caught my eye.  I would imagine constant wind exposure probably had something to do with that shape; regardless, that trunk shape is awesome.  Almost seems like it has a bottle-shape.

56622-185755-1-PB.pdf 8.64 MB · 0 downloads

Sorry, Figure 3B is actually Sabal antillensis.  Still, the description of Sabal lougheediana sounds similar.  I would love to get my hands on seeds from either one!

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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I agree that hybridizing Sabals should not be done with the expectation of making a profit.  But learning how to (attempt to) hybridize palmettos it is within the reach of anyone who just wants the challenge. One can get all the needed background information with with a little reading about basic flower anatomy, and some more concentrated reading about how pollination is done in other self-compatible species with small bisexual flowers,  such as Arabidopsis.  Would probably require investment in a dissecting scope or a hands-free jeweller's loupe.  And it would definitely take patience to dissect the flowers,  and years of waiting before you could be certain that any seeds produced are actually hybrids rather than an accidental self.  Possible, but not nearly as easy as a dioecious genus like Trachycarpus that has separate male and female plants.

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  • 1 month later...

Arch Creek Park in North Miami, FL has 4 mature Sabal domingensis just east of the main entrance. There are a couple sabals next to the museum that exibit hybrid characteristics. Hybridization in sabals is well documented and quite common.

20210221_152507.jpg

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1 hour ago, SouthFLA said:

Arch Creek Park in North Miami, FL has 4 mature Sabal domingensis just east of the main entrance. There are a couple sabals next to the museum that exibit hybrid characteristics. Hybridization in sabals is well documented and quite common.

 

Thanks for the evidence.

Nothing to say here. 

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