Weighing my Options

[JLM]

We have not really started anymajor planning with our spring project, but i had gone to different sites looking at different palm options. While zone doesnt matter, i have a list of palms that may or may not work here. I first went to Palmco and looked at their ratings, here they are:
Phoenix canariensis: 9a
Livistona chinensis: 9a
Arenga engleri: 10b
Chamaerops humilis: 8a
Beccariophoenix alfredii: 9a
Raphis excelsa: 9a
Butia x Syagrus: 8a
Livistona nitida: 8a/8b
Butia odoratta: 8a
Syagrus romanzoffiana: 10a
Phoenix roebelenii: 10a
Bismarckia nobilis: 10a
Phoenix sylvestris: 8b
Washingtonia (no specified type): 8b
Trachycarpus fortuneii: 7b

Palmpedia
Phoenix canariensis: 8b
Livistona chinensis: 8b
Arenga engleri: 8b
Chamaerops humilis: 7a
Beccariophoenix alfredii: 9b
Raphis excelsa: No info
Butia x Syagrus: No info
Livistona nitida: 8a
Butia odoratta: 8a
Syagrus romanzoffiana: 9a
Phoenix roebelenii: 9a(Young) 8b(Mature)
Bismarckia nobilis: 9b(Young) 9a(Mature)
Phoenix sylvestris: 8b
Washingtonia filifera: 8b
Washingtonia robusta: 9a
Washingtonia filibusta: 9a
Trachycarpus fortuneii: 6b

My zone is 8b (2012 map), likely 9a at this point. What are your thoughts about this list?

Edited January 10, 2021 by JLM

[Swolte]

I think these lists are useful as a rough indication but there's much more to palm survival than how cold it gets. There's a big difference between wet-cold and dry-cold, for example. Some would find the W Filifera to be z8 whereas for others it may be z9. I think your best option, if you want 'safe' choices, is to look at types of mature palms in your area and see what works (I used to pay close attention to front yards when driving around) and get specific feedback from forum members who live in your neck of the woods. Sorry if that's not what you're asking!

[JLM]

3 minutes ago, Swolte said:

I think these lists are useful as a rough indication but there's much more to palm survival than how cold it gets. There's a big difference between wet-cold and dry-cold, for example. Some would find the W Filifera to be z8 whereas for others it may be z9. I think your best option, if you want 'safe' choices, is to look at types of mature palms in your area and see what works (I used to pay close attention to front yards when driving around) and get specific feedback from forum members who live in your neck of the woods. Sorry if that's not what you're asking!

The ones from the list that ive seen here that are mature is washingtonia robusta, washingtonia filifera, (probably filibusta too), phoenix sylvestris and canariensis here and there(not mature height but several feet of trunk), trachycarpus fortuneii, butia (who knows which type), chamaerops humilis. Ive seen livistona chinensis with 1-2 ft of trunk. Ive seen a young queen scattered here and there, ive not seen any roebelenii's in this specific area but ive spotted a few nice ones in Pensacola. I know the Mule's can survive here, but ive never seen one. I figured the beccariophoenix would be an absolute no-go as they are marginal to northern central Florida from what ive seen.
I might be able to manage zone pushing the roebelenii's as they are small, only problem is the thorns. Arenga engleri would work up against the house as something to keep the dogs from barking at everything they see out the window lol

[DAVEinMB]

Both lists seem off to some degree

[kinzyjr]

@JLM

Relatively safe choices: Arenga engleri, Chamaerops humilis, Trachycarpus fortunei, Butia odorata, Washingtonia filifera (when healthy and happy), Rhapis excelsa clump and will typically grow back if killed to the ground

If you're up to the challenge, you could try a Jubaea chilensis.  I happen to know where you might get one  

[JLM]

57 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

@JLM

Relatively safe choices: Arenga engleri, Chamaerops humilis, Trachycarpus fortunei, Butia odorata, Washingtonia filifera (when healthy and happy), Rhapis excelsa clump and will typically grow back if killed to the ground

If you're up to the challenge, you could try a Jubaea chilensis.  I happen to know where you might get one  

Probably not up to the Jubaea, winters are too wet for them. For some reason, the Butias are hard to find here and i dont really get why. It would be great if i could find them at Lowe's or Home Depot for cheap, but i havent seen them. The Walmart in Ensley might during the spring, i mean they have foxtails and bottles so they better have butia lol
Would Arenga engleri be better off grown from seed or is this a fairly long process?

[kinzyjr]

5 minutes ago, JLM said:

Probably not up to the Jubaea, winters are too wet for them. For some reason, the Butias are hard to find here and i dont really get why. It would be great if i could find them at Lowe's or Home Depot for cheap, but i havent seen them. The Walmart in Ensley might during the spring, i mean they have foxtails and bottles so they better have butia lol
Would Arenga engleri be better off grown from seed or is this a fairly long process?

Arenga engleri don't grow very fast.  I have a few from seed out in the yard.  They're about 8 inches tall right now after being sprouted from seed I got in December 2018.  The good thing is that they go pinnate early in life.  Depending on how big you want them to be by when would depend on whether you want one that is nursery grown or sprouted from seed.

[JLM]

24 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Arenga engleri don't grow very fast.  I have a few from seed out in the yard.  They're about 8 inches tall right now after being sprouted from seed I got in December 2018.  The good thing is that they go pinnate early in life.  Depending on how big you want them to be by when would depend on whether you want one that is nursery grown or sprouted from seed.

Would probably opt for nursery grown, i wonder if any big box stores would carry this? Likely not, seems like something that would be hard to find.

[kinzyjr]

1 minute ago, JLM said:

Would probably opt for nursery grown, i wonder if any big box stores would carry this? Likely not, seems like something that would be hard to find.

If you feel like taking a drive: Arenga engleri - 25G

[JLM]

5 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

If you feel like taking a drive: Arenga engleri - 25G

The only problem with this is that i am not of age to drive :/
Thats also a 10 hour drive? Seems like a good ways away lol
I will shoot some emails to some local nurseries and see if there are any closer to home.
Edit: I know of a nursery in the Gulf Breeze area that might possibly have some, they have had foxtails and i think bismarckia there in the past based on streetview.

Edited January 10, 2021 by JLM

[Palm D]

1 hour ago, JLM said:

Probably not up to the Jubaea, winters are too wet for them. For some reason, the Butias are hard to find here and i dont really get why. It would be great if i could find them at Lowe's or Home Depot for cheap, but i havent seen them. The Walmart in Ensley might during the spring, i mean they have foxtails and bottles so they better have butia lol
Would Arenga engleri be better off grown from seed or is this a fairly long process?

If you have wet, Jubaea would take it better than Butia IMO 

[Estlander]

1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

Arenga engleri don't grow very fast.  I have a few from seed out in the yard.  They're about 8 inches tall right now after being sprouted from seed I got in December 2018.  The good thing is that they go pinnate early in life.  Depending on how big you want them to be by when would depend on whether you want one that is nursery grown or sprouted from seed.

How long has it been since you sent me some of your A. Engleri seeds - like two years? 
Lately they’ve really picked up speed. I’m quite amazed with their growth rate. 
My bigger ones are now 19-20in. tall. 
Won’t be long now till I can plant my first one. 
 

[Fallen Munk]

1 hour ago, JLM said:

Probably not up to the Jubaea, winters are too wet for them.

It's not the rain, it's the heat and humidity in Florida.  Jubaea love cold rain here in the PNW.  They get drowned all winter.  They really need a Mediterranean climate to thrive.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Fallen Munk

[JLM]

1 hour ago, Palm D said:

If you have wet, Jubaea would take it better than Butia IMO 

 

18 minutes ago, Fallen Munk said:

It's not the rain, it's the heat and humidity in Florida.  Jubaea love cold rain here in the PNW.  They get drowned all winter.  They really need a Mediterranean climate to thrive.

I dont recall ever seeing a Jubaea around here. Our winters can go from warm and somewhat humid to cold and bone dry. We get rain almost every week it seems like, sometimes rain events can last 2-3 days depending on the situation. Butia seem to do fairly well here, but ive never seen a Jubaea before though.

[kinzyjr]

6 hours ago, Estlander said:

How long has it been since you sent me some of your A. Engleri seeds - like two years? 
Lately they’ve really picked up speed. I’m quite amazed with their growth rate. 
My bigger ones are now 19-20in. tall. 
Won’t be long now till I can plant my first one.

You're caring for them much better than I did by far.  I remember sending those seeds out after the CFPACS Holiday 2018 Meeting.  Mine were stuck in the garage until January 2020 to keep the birds and squirrels away.  They are in the ground now.  Two of mine picked up speed a little after it started raining this year.  @JLM will probably have plants closer to what you have if he does the seed thing.  Seeds are very easy to find on eBay.

 

@JLM @Fallen Munk @Palm D

Yeah, for whatever reason (climate, nematodes, soil, etc.), we don't have a single confirmed adult Jubaea in Florida that I'm aware of at this point.  There is a palm that looks very much like one in the Orlando area.  Some members here dispute that it is pure Jubaea based on the flowers if I'm remembering right.  I keep a few seedlings here and they seem to do OK in the garage.  One of the things I've heard was it was too hot.  The garage is regularly over 100F in the summer, so we might be able to rule out our heat killing them.  If you put one in the ground, it just doesn't do well and eventually rots.

[Xenon]

Arenga engleri and Bismarckia might "survive" for a while but will look horrible if you hit low 20s every year in an area marginal for queen palms. Do you really want a palm that is freezing to the ground/growing out of major damage every winter? They are not 8b palms and don't look good in low end 9a either. 

[JLM]

5 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Arenga engleri and Bismarckia might "survive" for a while but will look horrible if you hit low 20s every year in an area marginal for queen palms. Do you really want a palm that is freezing to the ground/growing out of major damage every winter? They are not 8b palms and don't look good in low end 9a either. 

Arenga engleri would probably work up against the house, which is where they would be as a block to keep dogs from barking at everything. The Bismarckia would be an experiment, i have 11 seeds and might scatter some in different areas of the yard to see what area is best. If they die, i always have the shovel ready. The project will likely be filled with mainly reliable cold hardy palms, the Queens will stay as an extra. If the Queens die, dig them up and put something else in their place. Luckily some of these will be able to be protected well when young.

[Fallen Munk]

11 hours ago, JLM said:

 

I dont recall ever seeing a Jubaea around here. Our winters can go from warm and somewhat humid to cold and bone dry. We get rain almost every week it seems like, sometimes rain events can last 2-3 days depending on the situation. Butia seem to do fairly well here, but ive never seen a Jubaea before though.

I've hear that Jubaea hate Florida.  Depending on the year, rain events in the PNW (aka fall, winter, and spring) can last for months non stop so I know they like rain and cool weather.   Mine have been pushing new fronds for the winter, although slowly. 

[JLM]

So i blacked out for about 10 minutes today at Home Depot, when i got home there was a Majesty Palm with the rest of my small collection 

[Collectorpalms]

I have two Arenga species and lady palms in the ground. 20 is their limit.  The canes of the lady palms are thin so they get killed by long duration freezes. They will grow back from below 20, but it’s a slow recovery. I have the lady palms right on my foundation.
massive Arengas in Galveston at moody Gardens. They are so Wild unique for a palm once they get huge and multi trunking they are worth it! 

[Collectorpalms]

I see your zone and my zone relatively close. Humid inland gulf coast. 

If I was planting as a landscaper for a fool proof yard to a client, no thrills. Easy to find for north Florida, my Top 5 list. 

1. Sabal Palmetto 

2. Butia - Regular Pindo 

3. Mediterranean Fan. ( allowed to multitrunk) I prune mine as singles. 

4. Canary

5. Needle 

If I was planting for myself to have that one unique yard.

1. Mule instead of butia or queens.

2. P. Canaries are still most impressive. 

3. Sabal Uresana instead of Bismarckia temptation.

4. Washingtonia Filifera x Robusta F1. Speed size and hardiness. 

5. Silver Mediterranean fan. 
 

Runner up not on your list hardy to 20 but will come back from colder is a stunning multi trunking Senegal Date Palm. Wild crazy thorns but well worth the work. Mine is coming back from 14.5 degrees in 2018 ( killed trunks but had a well established root system) and in another 5-10 years of average winters should be stunning. I hope to get to it like below from internet.  My Sylvestris date while a single is the fastest and hardier is about 30 +ft tall. So buying maybe a few of those and clumping them together you may achieve a similar look... eventually but faster and more hardy. 

All of those are the winners in my front yard. 

 

Now if I was planting for a Back yard botanical garden I would try ( and have or have tried myself) everything on your list too. Beccariophoenix alfredii And Pygmy date though would need protected every year. 
 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Collectorpalms