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Livistona chinensis Questions


JLM

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I have seen a couple of these in the neighborhood, and they look really nice! They have the droopy tips, it has grown on me. Now i have some questions, because one of these palms has 4-5 stalks full of seeds. How slow do these grow? How long do they stay in their seedling stage? What do ripe seeds look like, not the fruit. How cold hardy are these based off of your experience? Do the seeds germinate easily?

Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 2 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 3 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 1 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 8 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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I germinated some. Seems like they are easy. They grow like weeds on Kauai where I visit sometimes.  I picked some up off a street in Costa Rica. 

Mine look like Pal's first pic.

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Looks pretty slow! I could probably deal with that though. Do you know how cold hardy they are based off of experience?

Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 2 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 3 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 1 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 8 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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The seeds germinate like weeds, I have a ton of volunteers growing under their mother. Should be plenty hardy for you though the leaves start to burn in the low 20s and more heavy damage occurs at 17-18F. The bud is hardy at least into the low teens. 

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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What does the ripe seed look like once the fruit has been cleaned off. I got some green fruit, but the seeds were just slightly smaller than the average size, they had a tanish color to them, is this the right look?

Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 2 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 3 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 1 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 8 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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4 hours ago, JLM said:

Looks pretty slow! I could probably deal with that though. Do you know how cold hardy they are based off of experience?

You have to remember that Pal Meir is growing in a greenhouse or inside a house during winter on top of that the palms is in a pot. that will make the growth a ton slower.  Maybe the Livestona he grew in 8 years would take 4-5 being planted outside. ( rough estimate) 

Edited by Palmfarmer
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If you’re hoping for big trunked specimens, you’ll need patience. Mine are 25 years old from seed. They’re big bodacious palms and growing at a high rate of speed now but the seedling/small palm stage is one that lasts many years. 

5B91FB30-529A-4F2C-9690-199D01C0B04F.jpeg.7ed5a428b62bd8371c62f5b8822b19d6.jpeg

14B1189D-64EE-4CBC-BDD1-E69E63461D71.thumb.jpeg.3b794b599bfae4a3c3ddb1de87c1414c.jpeg

7F3354F1-291C-4F8C-A25D-0666AAF61B7F.thumb.png.9c0b8d98d726d7536321a750bfb7fa0b.png

0342208F-4B11-46DF-87A3-0659A8C69E34.thumb.jpeg.25644452d6d8ce3f1ae4801e02ead27a.jpeg

C795BA2A-29DA-475E-BB95-E3F643562264.thumb.jpeg.fdb07894b69a871cccb196e813c0ede6.jpeg

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Jim in Los Altos, CA  SF Bay Area 37.34N- 122.13W- 190' above sea level

zone 10a/9b

sunset zone 16

300+ palms, 90+ species in the ground

Las Palmas Design

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8 hours ago, JLM said:

What does the ripe seed look like once the fruit has been cleaned off. I got some green fruit, but the seeds were just slightly smaller than the average size, they had a tanish color to them, is this the right look?

Sounds right - whitish to light tan.

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Jon Sunder

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The fruit is a beautiful blueish green when ripe, they germinate like weeds.

Livistona-chinensis-J-exotic-rare-chinese-fan-palm-_57.jpg

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Jupiter FL

in the Zone formally known as 10A

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Hi,

I think it depends where you are (climatically) and under what kind of conditions (eg. fulls sun, deep shade etc.) you are trying to grow them.

We have probably thousands of them on this island but there significant differences depending on their location. There are planted ones on the 

shore with almost no process at all (I pass them every day on my way to work for the last eight years) and there are others in the wild (deep shade, 

swampy areas etc.) or even in my garden which are almost rivaling my super-fast washies. So, it is kind of hard to say - on one hand they seem to be

a very robust species (in general) but I think there are some marginal (but important) points that make the difference... I haven't found out yet but 

I am on it. :greenthumb:

Here some visuals:

lc001.thumb.jpg.f8b93ade273ce0b33d3acd6d074cf59b.jpg

Young L. chinensis in the wild...

lc002.thumb.jpg.2c98036dec094812c2fe963fa31688b9.jpg

This image shows the difference between a shade and full sun grown pretty well I think. 

Finally...

lv003.thumb.jpg.70e0f185673c74ffe05a909237b0b899.jpg

an image of a very young (four years old) one in partial shade in the back yard. 

Their growing pattern seem to be too different (depending on their location/situation) to make a 

general statement but definitely a very interesting and rewarding species if you have the patience.

Best regards from Okinawa -

Lars

 

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Thank you all for the information! Much appreciated! I grabbed 4 fruits off the tree, i cleaned 2 of them off and they are now soaking. Maybe if this is how this works, i will let the other 2 fruits ripen by themselves before cleaning them off and starting. Hopefully these germinate!

Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 2 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 3 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 1 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 8 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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13 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

If you’re hoping for big trunked specimens, you’ll need patience. Mine are 25 years old from seed. They’re big bodacious palms and growing at a high rate of speed now but the seedling/small palm stage is one that lasts many years. 

Growth is a lot faster in my climate (and likely Florida as well).  Mine are 20 years old with 10-12 ft of clear trunk. They haven't seen supplemental water or fertilizer in over a decade and have been shaded out by an oak tree for years so they should probably be quite a bit taller. Definitely not the slowest palm around in a hot subtropical climate. 

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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What temp do these need to be at to germinate? Im hoping that maybe these can be germinated before the end of the growing season. The growing season will come to an end possibly within the next couple of weeks. A strong cold front is set to come through late next week, and if the cold air reaches far enough south, i could possibly see some light frost.

Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 2 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 3 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 1 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 8 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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4 hours ago, Xenon said:

Growth is a lot faster in my climate (and likely Florida as well).  Mine are 20 years old with 10-12 ft of clear trunk. They haven't seen supplemental water or fertilizer in over a decade and have been shaded out by an oak tree for years so they should probably be quite a bit taller. Definitely not the slowest palm around in a hot subtropical climate. 

True, I imagine in my cooler climate, they’re quite a bit slower.

Jim in Los Altos, CA  SF Bay Area 37.34N- 122.13W- 190' above sea level

zone 10a/9b

sunset zone 16

300+ palms, 90+ species in the ground

Las Palmas Design

Facebook Page

Las Palmas Design & Associates

Elegant Homes and Gardens

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4 hours ago, JLM said:

What temp do these need to be at to germinate? Im hoping that maybe these can be germinated before the end of the growing season. The growing season will come to an end possibly within the next couple of weeks. A strong cold front is set to come through late next week, and if the cold air reaches far enough south, i could possibly see some light frost.

25-30C temps will see them come up quickly. Protect the seedlings for 2 or 3 years in your climate and you should have success. Where I am they are super hardy. I’ve seen a neg 2.5C (27F) event here and they didn’t notice it. I like them growing in shade to semi shade where the petioles stretch and the fan leaves get large. Shady wind protected areas create the best look I’ve found. They do love water but will take much less. My property here is swampy clay peat with a winter water course that often floods its banks and they are as happy as a pig in mud here.

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Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Tyrone said:

25-30C temps will see them come up quickly. Protect the seedlings for 2 or 3 years in your climate and you should have success. Where I am they are super hardy. I’ve seen a neg 2.5C (27F) event here and they didn’t notice it. I like them growing in shade to semi shade where the petioles stretch and the fan leaves get large. Shady wind protected areas create the best look I’ve found. They do love water but will take much less. My property here is swampy clay peat with a winter water course that often floods its banks and they are as happy as a pig in mud here.

I think ive got a really good spot for them. There is an area under a crape myrtle that is one of the only canopies in my yard. It shades over really well during summer, this area is wind protected to a certain extent. It gets morning sun during summer and afternoon sun during fall and winter. The thing is though, this area likes to flood aswell. I could try one in that spot, and i could try another one somewhere else, that is providing all 4 germinate and make it.

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Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 2 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 3 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 1 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 8 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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  • 2 weeks later...

A lot of people say that these palm seeds germinate like weeds.  I have a tree that has been producing seeds for the last 3-4 year's and every year I plant some with absolutely no luck.  Am I such a brown thumb that I can't even germinate these seeds?  Is there any advice that anyone can give me to grow these.  They are not the prettiest or rarest in the world but i love them.  That's why I was so excited when my palm started to seed.  Thanks guys any help much appreciated.

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Make sure the fruits are ripe and have a bluish-black color.  I've tried germinating seeds from green fruits but nothing came up.  Clean the fruit off (very easy to do) to reveal the tan colored seed.  I usually soak them in warm water overnight before sowing.  If they float after soaking they're probably no good.  I really like them too - especially when they are young!  Direct sowing in containers or in a baggie works for me.  A little bottom heat this time of year helps.

Jon

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Jon Sunder

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16 hours ago, Fusca said:

Make sure the fruits are ripe and have a bluish-black color.  I've tried germinating seeds from green fruits but nothing came up.  Clean the fruit off (very easy to do) to reveal the tan colored seed.  I usually soak them in warm water overnight before sowing.  If they float after soaking they're probably no good.  I really like them too - especially when they are young!  Direct sowing in containers or in a baggie works for me.  A little bottom heat this time of year helps.

Jon

Thanks for the advice.  When I collected the seeds they were blue black so they were ripe.  I tried the community pot but when nothing came up I dug the seeds out and they were all moldy.  I also tried the baggie method and the same problem mold.  Do you know how well these seeds store?  How long can I wait after collecting to plant them before they lose viability?  Thanks.

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47 minutes ago, Reyes Vargas said:

Thanks for the advice.  When I collected the seeds they were blue black so they were ripe.  I tried the community pot but when nothing came up I dug the seeds out and they were all moldy.  I also tried the baggie method and the same problem mold.  Do you know how well these seeds store?  How long can I wait after collecting to plant them before they lose viability?  Thanks.

I'm not sure how long the seeds would retain viability but I would think that it would be some months.  Mold would be more likely if the seeds weren't fully cleaned and/or too much moisture.  In ziplock baggies I use sphagnum moss that has been wetted and wrung out until no more water drips out.  Moist but not wet.  Community pot medium should drain well and not be cheap potting soil that gets mucky and stays wet.  Sometimes they can take several months to germinate - it just takes patience.  They're not going to pop up in a week or two like Washingtonia seeds.

Jon

Jon Sunder

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27 minutes ago, Fusca said:

I'm not sure how long the seeds would retain viability but I would think that it would be some months.  Mold would be more likely if the seeds weren't fully cleaned and/or too much moisture.  In ziplock baggies I use sphagnum moss that has been wetted and wrung out until no more water drips out.  Moist but not wet.  Community pot medium should drain well and not be cheap potting soil that gets mucky and stays wet.  Sometimes they can take several months to germinate - it just takes patience.  They're not going to pop up in a week or two like Washingtonia seeds.

Jon

Thank you for all your help.  I will try the sphagnum moss in the baggie see if that works for me.

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3 hours ago, Reyes Vargas said:

Thank you for all your help.  I will try the sphagnum moss in the baggie see if that works for me.

I hope you have better luck!  I didn't think to mention that Livistonas can be either "functionally dioecious" or hermaphroditic so your tree might not produce viable seed every year.  Cutting one open should reveal a white embryo if it's viable.

Jon Sunder

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1 hour ago, Fusca said:

I hope you have better luck!  I didn't think to mention that Livistonas can be either "functionally dioecious" or hermaphroditic so your tree might not produce viable seed every year.  Cutting one open should reveal a white embryo if it's viable.

Just opened two seeds up and they look white so hope they are viable.  Fingers crossed.

20201104_142546.jpg

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  • 1 month later...

I would like to welcome a baby Chinensis to my small collection!

20201208_205958.jpg

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Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 2 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 3 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 1 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 8 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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  • 1 month later...

After waiting for so long to see movement, i got a little greedy. I dug out a little around the seed and saw the little palm in its very beginning stages! Should see it pop up above the soil within the next couple of weeks!

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Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 2 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 3 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 1 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 8 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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  • 3 months later...

Update:

20210515_142801.jpg

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Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 2 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 3 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 1 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 8 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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5 minutes ago, JLM said:

Update:

20210515_142801.jpg

Am I seeing things or is there a discoloration at the base of the strap leaf?

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1 minute ago, Reyes Vargas said:

Am I seeing things or is there a discoloration at the base of the strap leaf?

Nope, you arent seeing things. For some reason that part of the leaf turned brown and isnt opening, but its been pushed out and being followed by green. This is the only chinensis i have, glad it pushed out whatever was going on.

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Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 2 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 3 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 1 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 8 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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5 minutes ago, JLM said:

Nope, you arent seeing things. For some reason that part of the leaf turned brown and isnt opening, but its been pushed out and being followed by green. This is the only chinensis i have, glad it pushed out whatever was going on.

Hope it pulls through for you.  This is one of If not my favorite palm.  I just love the way it looks.  And pretty cold hardy.  Mine survived the Texas arctic blast where we got down to 23°F with only tip frond damage.  Keep us updated.

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6 minutes ago, Reyes Vargas said:

Hope it pulls through for you.  This is one of If not my favorite palm.  I just love the way it looks.  And pretty cold hardy.  Mine survived the Texas arctic blast where we got down to 23°F with only tip frond damage.  Keep us updated.

Glad yours survived so well! Will definitely keep yall updated!

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Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 2 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 3 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 1 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 8 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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  • 4 weeks later...

Looking for some advice on this one.

20210608_105142.thumb.jpg.00d3642818c72b489d50426d99a707cf.jpg

I planted it in January, fertilized it and left. We had some days in the upper 20s and, in spring, lots of rain. Fertilized again in May when I returned, then lots more rain. My general plant instincts (I  haven't developed palm instincts yet) tell me it didn't have time to develop a good root system and the foliage got starved. The heavy, wet soil didn't help. Now that we're into the warm weather, I'm hoping it will recover. I'll fertilize again in June but worry about overdoing it. Your thoughts?

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1 hour ago, Manalto said:

Looking for some advice on this one.

20210608_105142.thumb.jpg.00d3642818c72b489d50426d99a707cf.jpg

I planted it in January, fertilized it and left. We had some days in the upper 20s and, in spring, lots of rain. Fertilized again in May when I returned, then lots more rain. My general plant instincts (I  haven't developed palm instincts yet) tell me it didn't have time to develop a good root system and the foliage got starved. The heavy, wet soil didn't help. Now that we're into the warm weather, I'm hoping it will recover. I'll fertilize again in June but worry about overdoing it. Your thoughts?

Mine did the exact same thing.  When I planted it, it was a nice green color then shortly after turned yellow.  Mine was planted in full sun though.  Most nurseries grow their palms in shade houses so when you take them home They need some time to acclimate to full sun.  I don't know how much sun yours gets.  They shouldn't need fertilizer the first year you put them in ground.

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26 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

strong sun in that spot? 

Concur...my experience with Livistona chinensis has been that specimens grown in full sun typically have light green/yellowish (and smaller) fronds; whereas, specimens grown in more shade tend to have darker green (and larger) fronds.  The lighter frond color notwithstanding, it looks like a strong healthy growing palm to me (at least, from the picture presented).

Also, the attached PDF is an informative read on the Livistona genus if interested.

 

60_02_02_y2009_V60P2_GBS_pg185.pdf

Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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58 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

strong sun in that spot? 

This time of year,  it gets dappled light, as you see in the photo, from sun-up until about 11. Full overhead sun until about 2 and then in the shadow of the house for the rest of the day. I like what I've seen of this species when it's grown in some shade and was hoping mine would look like that.  The nursery I got it from has a high canopy of trees overhead, so it never got full sun there. It's getting more sun than it did at the nursery but only about three hours of direct.

I'm surprised about the recommendation to wait a year to fertilize. The grower strongly recommended that I fertilize. Could it be that we're in a high-rainfall region and nutrients get leached out of the soil?

Thank you, GLG, for the PDF.

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Here's a bird's-eye view from the second-floor sleeping porch. Screen removal on these old casement windows is not a simple process, so I shot it the lazy way. It's a little murky, but the color is pretty true. 

20210608_173254.thumb.jpg.ea32545f2afc69dbceef879386423157.jpg

Edited by Manalto
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19 hours ago, Manalto said:

This time of year,  it gets dappled light, as you see in the photo, from sun-up until about 11. Full overhead sun until about 2 and then in the shadow of the house for the rest of the day. I like what I've seen of this species when it's grown in some shade and was hoping mine would look like that.  The nursery I got it from has a high canopy of trees overhead, so it never got full sun there. It's getting more sun than it did at the nursery but only about three hours of direct.

I'm surprised about the recommendation to wait a year to fertilize. The grower strongly recommended that I fertilize. Could it be that we're in a high-rainfall region and nutrients get leached out of the soil?

Thank you, GLG, for the PDF.

"The nursery I got it from has a high canopy of trees overhead, so it never got full sun there. It's getting more sun than it did at the nursery but only about three hours of direct."

There is your answer. You just need to be patient and it will produce Fronds that can stay green with the amount of sunlight you got. I think it looks pretty good regardless. 

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