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Sabal "riverside"


osideterry

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I'm a "big fan" of this one. Fast for a Sabal, coldhardy. But when it comes down to it, there isn't a heck of alot of info on the net regarding this palm.

I now have three of them, 2 5 gallons and a 1 gallon. Any mature photos posted would be great, as there aren't many of those online either.

  • Upvote 1

Zone 9b/10a, Sunset Zone 22

7 miles inland. Elevation 120ft (37m)

Average annual low temp: 30F (-1C)

Average annual rainfall: 8" (20cm)

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Dear Terry  :)

he is some information on this site,and i did purschase few

sabals from this site and RIVER-SIDE happens to be one of it.

and i got 90% germination from those seeds.

and all of you know that i always have a thing for stout

things,with an exception to women !  :D

Here is the link,so feast your eyes with visuals...

http://www.rareseedsource.com/proddetail.p...rside&cat=6

Love,

Kris  :)

love conquers all..

43278.gif

.

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Dear Terry  :)

that's a nice link and i pray god that my S.R.S grow's something of that size or even bigger !  :D

love,

Kris  :)

love conquers all..

43278.gif

.

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There has been a lot of confussion about S. Riverside over the years and exactly what it is. Some think it might be a hybrid, others a sport that popped up in Riverside Calif. The story that was passed along to me was that a lone sabal was growing in Riverside Ca, and palm enthuesiast found it and propigated it from seeds. It comes true from seeds, so that adds some cofussion that it might be a hybrid.

I have a 3rd generation S. Riverside, with seeds that came from the late Jim Specht. He had collected the seed from the original tree and had grown up a nice speciman in San Diego, and my seeds came from his tree. I was told a freeway was built in Riverside and the original tree was removed or chopped down for the freeway.

It's not quite true that it's "fast growing," but relatively fast growing compaired to most Sabal species which are slow growing. The one I have has about 18 feet of woody trunk and it grows about 6 or 8 new fronds each year and it blooms regularly with long arching inflorescences and very fragrant flowers. Mine had moderate foliage damage in the great freeze of 89/90 when temps. went down to 14F (-10C), but there was no permanent damage.  The fruit/seeds are sensitive to freezing and are killed when the temps. drop much below 25F, but not the fronds. Mine has very rarely produced viable seeds, which I attribute to my cold winter time temps.

S. Riverside is a beautiful, large palm, and if I had only one choice of Sabals, S. Riverside would be my pick.

Dick

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Richard Douglas

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Group,

Somewhere in the oldest archives I presented the story of the origin of the name of this "species".  I'll briefly give it again.  Ed Moore (from San Diego, past President So Cal Chapter IPS) is now about 90 years old.  He told me that when he was young, it was almost impossible to get different palm trees.  About fifty years ago he visited a private botanical garden (owned by a wealthy individual) and saw this huge blue-green Sabal.  He collected seeds and sold several hundred of them.  He called them "Sabal-Riverside" at the time and put a tag in each plant.  The original plant survived for a while and as I recall the site became a public garden (? Wright Park) for some time but was eventually plowed under.  The palm was apparently lost or moved.  Ed told me after a decade or two, people just started calling it Sabal Riverside as if it were a species.  I've got a huge seeding specimen in my yard.  The seeds are about the size of a small marble with the fruit, which is black.  It's trunk is thick, the leaves are quite large, but the petioles are not real long; perhaps 6 feet.  The photo from RPS above looks like it, but Maxwell's palm is too stretched out in the petioles.  I question whether it's the real thing.  If I can get around to it, I'll shoot a few photos some day.  There's several in Morley Field next to Balboa Park in San Diego.  That's where most of the seed brokers get their seeds.

Phil

Jungle Music Palms and Cycads, established 1977 and located in Encinitas, CA, 20 miles north of San Diego on the Coast.  Phone:  619 2914605 Link to Phil's Email phil.bergman@junglemusic.net Website: www.junglemusic.net Link to Jungle Music Palms and Cycads

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Hi Phil,

Thanks for more information about the famous Sabal Riverside. I read an account once, maybe in Principes, about the famous Wright Garden. He was one of the early palm growers, and I guess he was a very wealthy man as he had mature specimens shipped from S. America. Seems I remember he had a mature Trithrinax campestrus that was shipped from S. America, and that when he passed away and his garden was broken up, the palm was divided and half of it went to the Huntington Gardens and that's the plant that grows there today. I never heard of what happened to the other half of the palm.

My memory is sketchey, so does anyone else know about Mr. Wright and his garden? I presume that the original S. Riverside must have come from his garden too.

Dick

Richard Douglas

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I always suspected that the palm was bermudana. When a palm name gets mixed up and species keys are hard to use (and when hybrids appear) it sure gets hard to know what you have.

Bremudana has a big fruit so Phils description leads there. The "blue green" color does not. Since bermudana is probably an evolved form of palmetto (a guessed based on proximity) it still looks very much like one. If you straighten the leaf and make the seed small (maybe shrink the trunk) it looks just like palmetto.

I DIG PALMS

Call me anytime to chat about transplanting palms.

305-345-8918

https://www.facebook...KenJohnsonPalms

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Even the experts get confussed about Sabal identification, unless they are found in habitat. I suspect they probably hybridize eaislly in clutivation where many species are growing together. Probably a DNA check on S. Riverside would solve the mystery. Hell, we can't even pronounce Sabal.  The S. Califonians call it "Say-BALL" and on the east coast it's pronounced "Say-bul."

Dick

Richard Douglas

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here are some images of Sabal 'Riverside' from Pierce College in the San Fernando Valley

rside.jpg

rside2.jpg

rside3.jpg

I get by with a little help from my fronds

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Hello all,

My dad grew this specimen from seeds he collected from the Riverside Ca. plant that Dick references. The seeds are quite large compared to S. palmetto and on this plant are very prolific. Does anyone have any idea of the likelyhood of Sabals crosspollenating with the other species of Sabals in the collection?

Brad

2006-11-07026.jpg

IMGP1238.jpg

IMGP1110.jpg

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"Ask and you shall receive." Thanks for all the info and photos. I knew there must be a story behind Sabal riverside. I kind of like that it's taxonomy is still a mystery.

If the photo I linked to from Dave's Garden isn't S. riverside, what is it? I was actually looking forward to dealing with something that troublesome!

Zone 9b/10a, Sunset Zone 22

7 miles inland. Elevation 120ft (37m)

Average annual low temp: 30F (-1C)

Average annual rainfall: 8" (20cm)

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(Phil @ Jul. 18 2007,06:44)

QUOTE
Group,

Somewhere in the oldest archives I presented the story of the origin of the name of this "species".  I'll briefly give it again.  Ed Moore (from San Diego, past President So Cal Chapter IPS) is now about 90 years old.  He told me that when he was young, it was almost impossible to get different palm trees.  About fifty years ago he visited a private botanical garden (owned by a wealthy individual) and saw this huge blue-green Sabal.  He collected seeds and sold several hundred of them.  He called them "Sabal-Riverside" at the time and put a tag in each plant.  The original plant survived for a while and as I recall the site became a public garden (? Wright Park) for some time but was eventually plowed under.  The palm was apparently lost or moved.  Ed told me after a decade or two, people just started calling it Sabal Riverside as if it were a species.  I've got a huge seeding specimen in my yard.  The seeds are about the size of a small marble with the fruit, which is black.  It's trunk is thick, the leaves are quite large, but the petioles are not real long; perhaps 6 feet.  The photo from RPS above looks like it, but Maxwell's palm is too stretched out in the petioles.  I question whether it's the real thing.  If I can get around to it, I'll shoot a few photos some day.  There's several in Morley Field next to Balboa Park in San Diego.  That's where most of the seed brokers get their seeds.

Phil

Phil, I have a sabal domingenisis(labelled a sabal blackburniana), and a sabal bermudana, I appreciate the differences, they are obvious to me.  The bermudana has shorter petioles, leaves are less costpalmate, shorter and thicker, tips generally dont droop, as with the domingenisis.  The thing is, the domengenisis looks just like the "riverside" right to the highly symmetric cross hatch leaf base pattern(not the same as bermudana to the eye).  The domengenisis I have is 10' tall by at least 12' wide with about 2' of clear trunk, its a large tree for sure.  Every time I look at the different sabals, I just cant see one aspect to differentiate a blackburniana(or domengenisis) from a riverside.  Whats up with that?  Am I missing something?

Tom

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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Some reseachers are putting domoingensis and causiarum togeather. They are described from different areas but may be the same. Definitly different than bermudana. I like to think of the causiarum and domingensis types as the "white" trunked sabals. There are other sabals with fat trunks, tall trunks. different lenth this and that but these are the only ones with a smooth whiteish trunk. Of coarse you will have to wait 20 plus years to see the trunk. Or speed it up a little by cutting off the leaf bases.

Anyone have a picture of bermudana from Bermuda? That may help.

It is very easy to get a palm labled wrong and to go through life with the wrong idea. Seeing these things in the wild helps but even the same seed batch of palm "a" will look different from garden to garden especially if the gardens are across a continent from each other. As Dick mentions even the way we pronounce the name changes!

I DIG PALMS

Call me anytime to chat about transplanting palms.

305-345-8918

https://www.facebook...KenJohnsonPalms

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This palm, growing outside of Modesto, CA, has always been known as a "Riverside" Sabal.  It fits the criteria listed by Phil.  It currently has 12- 15 feet of trunk.

The only known history on it is that it was planted around 1983 by an old IPS member, Dan Lara.

I have always considered it a landmark palm here in Central California.

post-376-1184785799_thumb.jpg

Glenn

Modesto, California

 

Sunset Zone 14   USDA 9b

 

Low Temp. 19F/-7C 12-20-1990         

 

High Temp. 111F/43C 07-23-2006

 

Annual Average Precipitation 13.12 inches/yr.

 

             

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"Short" petioles, no longer than about 6 feet in length...

post-376-1184785969_thumb.jpg

Glenn

Modesto, California

 

Sunset Zone 14   USDA 9b

 

Low Temp. 19F/-7C 12-20-1990         

 

High Temp. 111F/43C 07-23-2006

 

Annual Average Precipitation 13.12 inches/yr.

 

             

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Black fruit, seeds about the size of a small marble...

post-376-1184786043_thumb.jpg

Glenn

Modesto, California

 

Sunset Zone 14   USDA 9b

 

Low Temp. 19F/-7C 12-20-1990         

 

High Temp. 111F/43C 07-23-2006

 

Annual Average Precipitation 13.12 inches/yr.

 

             

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Thick trunk, retains some color long after the petiole has been removed.  Really attractive.

post-376-1184786234_thumb.jpg

Glenn

Modesto, California

 

Sunset Zone 14   USDA 9b

 

Low Temp. 19F/-7C 12-20-1990         

 

High Temp. 111F/43C 07-23-2006

 

Annual Average Precipitation 13.12 inches/yr.

 

             

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(Ken Johnson @ Jul. 18 2007,15:00)

QUOTE
Some reseachers are putting domoingensis and causiarum togeather. They are described from different areas but may be the same. Definitly different than bermudana. I like to think of the causiarum and domingensis types as the "white" trunked sabals. There are other sabals with fat trunks, tall trunks. different lenth this and that but these are the only ones with a smooth whiteish trunk. Of coarse you will have to wait 20 plus years to see the trunk. Or speed it up a little by cutting off the leaf bases.

Anyone have a picture of bermudana from Bermuda? That may help.

It is very easy to get a palm labled wrong and to go through life with the wrong idea. Seeing these things in the wild helps but even the same seed batch of palm "a" will look different from garden to garden especially if the gardens are across a continent from each other. As Dick mentions even the way we pronounce the name changes!

here is my "causiarum", "domengenisis" or "blackburniana".  It has not yielded fruit yet, but seems to also have many of the "riverside" attributes.  this pic wa taken 2 months ago before a recent growth burst, now it has 3 more palms.  The petioles do turn yellowish as they fall to the horizontal, so maybe that defines it as a causiarum.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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While we are on the Sabal subject:  Sabals are not very common in California, the reason being, I guess, because they are slow and they do take up a lot of valueable space.  Of course there are lots of other palms that grow much faster and are more attractive. Let's face it, aside from size and color most Sabals look very similar and it takes a palm nut to notice the difference.

I once had 10 different kinds of Sabals, but two of my most robust with nice woody trunks suddenly got bud rot or something and died. I suspect it might have been caused by some particularly long, wet winters and cool temperatures, and these two palms were getting a good bit of shade too.

Sabal Riverside seems to be the most common one in Calif. and maybe that's because Ed Moore collected all those seeds years ago and they were spread around.  Sabals need warm weather to grow, but S. Riverside seems to do best in Calif. with our cool nights. Surprisingly, S. causiarum has done well for me, even though it comes from the Carribean. Mine has about 5 feet of thick woody trunk and huge blue/grey fronds with a yellow "window" in the frond at the apex of the petiole. Mine has been blooming for several years but it's never produced any viable seeds.

Fairchild Gardens has some large S. causiarum and frankly they are not very attractive to me when they grow tall. Most tall sabals have their head in the wind and they get beat up and kind of ratty looking. Fortunately mine are low enough and wind protected, so the fronds are not tattered by the wind.

One of my favorites is a compact sabal with thick, leathery, stiff, fronds.  As a young plant it had a heal and it crept on the ground for about 12 inches until it grew up and formed a trunk. None of the taxonimist were able to identify it, including Hal More and Robert Reed. It has produced small viable seeds before, but they are hard to germinate. It's also tough and was unfased by 14F.

I have 3 S. minors, and they were appropriately named as they ARE minor.  They have flat fronds, not costapalmate, and they break up eaisly in the wind. Fortunately, mine are wind protected growing next to a board fence. They do well in part shade and they are head high now......after 30 years.

If your 30 years old or less, and have hot summers,  plant some Sabals and you might be able to walk under them when your 60. All of mine were 5 gallon size or less when I planted them.

Dick

Richard Douglas

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(PalmGuyWC @ Jul. 18 2007,17:07)

QUOTE
While we are on the Sabal subject:  Sabals are not very common in California, the reason being, I guess, because they are slow and they do take up a lot of valueable space.  Of course there are lots of other palms that grow much faster and are more attractive. Let's face it, aside from size and color most Sabals look very similar and it takes a palm nut to notice the difference.

I once had 10 different kinds of Sabals, but two of my most robust with nice woody trunks suddenly got bud rot or something and died. I suspect it might have been caused by some particularly long, wet winters and cool temperatures, and these two palms were getting a good bit of shade too.

Sabal Riverside seems to be the most common one in Calif. and maybe that's because Ed Moore collected all those seeds years ago and they were spread around.  Sabals need warm weather to grow, but S. Riverside seems to do best in Calif. with our cool nights. Surprisingly, S. causiarum has done well for me, even though it comes from the Carribean. Mine has about 5 feet of thick woody trunk and huge blue/grey fronds with a yellow "window" in the frond at the apex of the petiole. Mine has been blooming for several years but it's never produced any viable seeds.

Fairchild Gardens has some large S. causiarum and frankly they are not very attractive to me when they grow tall. Most tall sabals have their head in the wind and they get beat up and kind of ratty looking. Fortunately mine are low enough and wind protected, so the fronds are not tattered by the wind.

One of my favorites is a compact sabal with thick, leathery, stiff, fronds.  As a young plant it had a heal and it crept on the ground for about 12 inches until it grew up and formed a trunk. None of the taxonimist were able to identify it, including Hal More and Robert Reed. It has produced small viable seeds before, but they are hard to germinate. It's also tough and was unfased by 14F.

I have 3 S. minors, and they were appropriately named as they ARE minor.  They have flat fronds, not costapalmate, and they break up eaisly in the wind. Fortunately, mine are wind protected growing next to a board fence. They do well in part shade and they are head high now......after 30 years.

If your 30 years old or less, and have hot summers,  plant some Sabals and you might be able to walk under them when your 60. All of mine were 5 gallon size or less when I planted them.

Dick

Hmmm, My own observations are that my causarium, bought in fall '05 as a 3' tall 24" box tree, is now about 10' tall, about 3 years later.  It puts out 6-7 new fans a year.  I wouldnt classify it as an extremely slow grower, but as my fastest growing fan palm, other than Bismarckia(I have no washies).  Perhaps the heat helps here, I dunno.  I dont have santa anna winds or wet winters to contend with, havent had any wind damage to my palms except for the queens.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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Wow Glenn!

That picture was exciting to see.  Guess who gave Dan Lara that S. Riverside? It was ME!!  It was the companion plant to the one I have and they are both about the same size, except I remove all the leaf bases to show the nice thick, clean trunk.

I met young Daniel at a palm society meeting and we became friends and used to spend hours discussing palms. Later he got married and was raising a young faimly, and with the chores of growing fruit trees, he was to busy for the Palm Society and had to drop out.  I miss our old chats. I often wonder how he's doing since we have lost touch. I'm sure he's doing well as his faimly owned several thousand acres of aprocot and almand orchids in the Valley.

Dick

Richard Douglas

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Sonoranfans: Whatever your Sabal is, I like the long petioles and bluish color. Must not be terribly slow grower either.

While we're talking Sabal...

The most attractive one I've seen in person and in photos is Sabal mauritiiformis. I know it is probably the least cold hardy of the genus, but is also considered a faster growing Sabal. How does it's rate of growth compare with S. riverside?

Sabal yapa is the another pretty one, but I've heard it's a slug.

Zone 9b/10a, Sunset Zone 22

7 miles inland. Elevation 120ft (37m)

Average annual low temp: 30F (-1C)

Average annual rainfall: 8" (20cm)

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Hey Arizona Tom,

How about a picture of that fast growing sabal? I bet they do like the heat. Do you add water?

Dick,

I would like to see you sabals too. Got any fresh ones? The mystery palm?  What latitude are you? You know that casiarum does well in Gainsville? Yep. them carribean Sabals can be VERY cold hardy!

Y'all know that palmetto is the state tree of Florida and what other mid-atlantic state?

And just think about it... If bermudana is "riverside" then it is a long way from home.

BTW I do not know of anyone who can show me a hybrid Sabal. You?

I DIG PALMS

Call me anytime to chat about transplanting palms.

305-345-8918

https://www.facebook...KenJohnsonPalms

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(Ken Johnson @ Jul. 18 2007,18:34)

QUOTE
Hey Arizona Tom,

How about a picture of that fast growing sabal? I bet they do like the heat. Do you add water?

Dick,

I would like to see you sabals too. Got any fresh ones? The mystery palm?  What latitude are you? You know that casiarum does well in Gainsville? Yep. them carribean Sabals can be VERY cold hardy!

Y'all know that palmetto is the state tree of Florida and what other mid-atlantic state?

And just think about it... If bermudana is "riverside" then it is a long way from home.

BTW I do not know of anyone who can show me a hybrid Sabal. You?

Ken my causairum is depicted in post #20.  It does grow faster once temps exceed 90 degrees, thats when the new palms are pushed out.  It also laughs at AZ cold, very happy in the 20's.   It sure is no king or queen palm growth wise, but I have quite a few slower growing palms.   Latitude of Gilbert is is 33.352N.  I drip irrigate all my palms using a programmable 8 station timer.  Wow causairum in gainsville probably grows even better than here.  I also have a sabal bermudana about the same size.  A bermudana pic is in the "recovery of bismarckia thread", post #7, with a 2 year earlier pic in the same thread, post #9, showing decent growth.  Bermudana is by all accounts even tougher in the cold(10F?).  I have in the greenhouse a small sabal minor, and a small sabal uresana.  I have yet another causairum double, here it is pictured right next to the larger causairum, behind the butia.  the double trunk is hard to see as one is behind the other.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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First of all thanks to many who have given visuals for the benefit of palm lovers worldwide !

and i must thank terry for staring this thread since i love this

fan palm.and iam growing some in my roof top garden.

but iam surprised that there were many stills in RSS site,but

now only one is there.

and i must say the best still till now is of Glenn,the one with

the old leave base trunk still.

i fell in love with sabal,washy purely for its criss cross scissors

kind of leaf arrangement.

Now iam very eager to see the stills of Phil,dear phil please

show us some stills of your SRS palm..

thanks & love,

Kris  :)

here is a still of this SRS which is around 4 to 5 months old

grown from seeds from Rss(www.rareseedsource.com)

post-108-1184827984_thumb.jpg

love conquers all..

43278.gif

.

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Hi All,

Ken, I'll try to get some pictures of my sabals soon. I missjudged the planting space for the Sables and they are to close together and hard to photograph.  Juvinile Sabals can have a wide girth and they require a lot of room.  Mine are also getting to much shade now which tends to make them even more stretched out. As they get older the crown tends to shrink so maybe one of these years they will fit in harmony.

I have one that is supposedly a hybrid, but it's not spectacular and nothing to talk about.  Unless the seeds are gathered in habitat, I suspect many cultivated Sabals are hybrids and mine all seem to bloom at the same time.

I have a S. uresana and it started out very slow growing. It was the blue form, but it's turned more grey as it's gotten older. If anyone has one to plant, give it plenty of room and full sun as they get BIG as does S. causarium.

Dick

Richard Douglas

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(krisachar @ Jul. 19 2007,02:53)

QUOTE
First of all thanks to many who have given visuals for the benefit of palm lovers worldwide !

and i must thank terry for staring this thread since i love this

fan palm.and iam growing some in my roof top garden.

but iam surprised that there were many stills in RSS site,but

now only one is there.

and i must say the best still till now is of Glenn,the one with

the old leave base trunk still.

i fell in love with sabal,washy purely for its criss cross scissors

kind of leaf arrangement.

Now iam very eager to see the stills of Phil,dear phil please

show us some stills of your SRS palm..

thanks & love,

Kris  :)

here is a still of this SRS which is around 4 to 5 months old

grown from seeds from Rss(www.rareseedsource.com)

very nice sabal kris, nice blue tint on the new fronds.  I have a sabal minor that looks very much alike as many sabals do at that age, I suppose.  The Riverside should be an impressive focal point in the future of your yard.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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  • 3 months later...

My understanding was that the original Sabal 'Riverside' was in the Riverside Experiment Station; think there was a photo of it years ago on this board.  Any chance it is still there?  It would be huge now!

merrill, North Central Florida

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Merrill,

I heard that years ago the original S. Riverside was removed or destroyed to make way for another freeway in S. Calif. Somewhere on this thread, Phil has probably the most accurate account of how S. Riverside came to be. Whatever it is, it is my favorite sabal growing in my garden, and one of the fastest growing.

Dick

Richard Douglas

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(PalmGuyWC @ Jul. 18 2007,07:38)

QUOTE
Even the experts get confussed about Sabal identification, unless they are found in habitat. I suspect they probably hybridize eaislly in clutivation where many species are growing together. Probably a DNA check on S. Riverside would solve the mystery. Hell, we can't even pronounce Sabal.  The S. Califonians call it "Say-BALL" and on the east coast it's pronounced "Say-bul."

Dick

Hey I am from So-Cal and I pronounce it Saw-Ball.

Ed Mijares

Whittier, Ca

Psyco Palm Collector Wheeler Dealer

Zone 10a?

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Sheesh, I was pronouncing it wrong also

SABAL of unknown origin; possibly a Latinized form of the aboriginal name [sAI-bahl / SAH-b’l]

Matt in Temecula, CA

Hot and dry in the summer, cold with light frost in the winter. Halfway between the desert and ocean

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(osideterry @ Jul. 18 2007,18:26)

QUOTE
Sonoranfans: Whatever your Sabal is, I like the long petioles and bluish color. Must not be terribly slow grower either.

While we're talking Sabal...

The most attractive one I've seen in person and in photos is Sabal mauritiiformis. I know it is probably the least cold hardy of the genus, but is also considered a faster growing Sabal. How does it's rate of growth compare with S. riverside?

Sabal yapa is the another pretty one, but I've heard it's a slug.

If you want to see a big Sabal mauritiiformis, go to Palomar College.  In the aboretum, Sabal mauritiiformis awaits your eyes.  This palm looks like a green bizzie on steroid.  IMHO, Sabal mauritiiformis is the best looking sabal.  BTW, Palomar has many palms throughout the college.  Their purple archontos are silver, and very good against the big wind.

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