Largest Zone-Pushed Bismarckia

[ahosey01]

So I planted a Bismarckia this year, and I acknowledge that in 9A with average Jan lows around 33-34 and usually at least one or two mornings between 20-25, I’m pushing it a little.  However, there is almost no humidity here, the palm is situated in a spot that gets first morning light, and these morning lows usually last a few minutes before daybreak.  We’ve also never had a daily high to my knowledge below 45 in the winter, either.  So my fingers are crossed.

Anyways - can anyone point me to a good example of a large Bismarckia that is growing in a marginal climate zone? I’d love some info about temps, protection methods, etc.  I read about a dude in Florida once who kept a different kind of Palm (more cold sensitive) alive on the coldest nights with a propane blower heater.

Thanks!

Edited August 23, 2020 by ahosey01

[Fusca]

This one is in zone 9a San Antonio.  Took the pic last year so it must surely be larger now.  There is a forum member here @Duppy who lives about 10 miles west of me who has posted pics of large ones but he hasn't been active in several months.  I'll see if I can get an updated pic.  I have no idea of how long it's been planted or what kind of care it's been given and I doubt that it's been given any winter protection.

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Fusca

[necturus]

I've shared some big ones in Houston before. You can see two in my neighborhood on page two of the thread below. Realistically, for the last thirty years we've been zone 9B, but we get infrequent freezes to the low 20s (probably averages out once every five years). The two I've posted have seen at least two bad consecutive winters. The first winter we got down to around 20 one night. The second winter was worse, as we probably flirted with just under 20 and stayed below freezing longer.  Some large queen palms died in that freeze, although most survived. These two lost most leaves but came back just fine in the summer. They look great now after two winters that never dropped below 30.

I lost a small, trunkless Bismarckia in the second freeze, and a neighbor had one with a couple feet of trunk that also died. So they seem to pick up hardiness with size.

 

[Meangreen94z]

There are a lot of them in South Houston that survived 18-20*F in January 2018. Probably the one with the fullest spread of fronds is up against a Lowe’s in Clear Lake(South Houston).

[necturus]

That's a nice one!

I think the one in Katy @Xenon has shared and the ones in my 'hood are very inspiring for low zone 9B/high zone 9A, because they are completely unprotected and lie in relatively cold areas. These are popping up more in the Big Box stores, so I'm guessing we will be able to give a better answer to the question of what's hardier, queens or Bismarckia, in the near future.

[Xenon]

3 hours ago, necturus said:

That's a nice one!

I think the one in Katy @Xenon has shared 

The one in Katy is finally sporting a full crown and looks decent after the past two mild winters.  The trooper planted in the mid 2000s saw high teens in 2010, 2011, 2014, 2017, and 2018.  It grows completely exposed and neglected at a gas station.  All of these events were cold enough to kill a good number of queen palms and this stretch of Katy is the farthest west on I-10 in the Houston Area that you will see some larger queen palms that predate 2010.  I know of a few more Bismarckia in residential areas that also survived. The sample size is small but I don't know of any that didn't survive the 2018 freeze in Katy (18F) and Houston inside 610 (19-21F).  There are also several Bismarckia at Caldwell Nursery in Rosenberg that survived in an area completely devoid of any large queens. I think I know which is the winner. 

I'll try to get some updated pics soon. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Xenon

[Fusca]

6 hours ago, necturus said:

I think the one in Katy @Xenon has shared and the ones in my 'hood are very inspiring for low zone 9B/high zone 9A, because they are completely unprotected and lie in relatively cold areas. These are popping up more in the Big Box stores, so I'm guessing we will be able to give a better answer to the question of what's hardier, queens or Bismarckia, in the near future.

 

3 hours ago, Xenon said:

The one in Katy is finally sporting a full crown and looks decent after the past two mild winters.  The trooper planted in the mid 2000s saw high teens in 2010, 2011, 2014, 2017, and 2018.  It grows completely exposed and neglected at a gas station. 

To me this one is the most impressive given its track record and exposure.  I don't consider a Bismarckia in 9b is a zone push - there are larger ones at the SA Riverwalk that I could have posted but I consider that area a 9b microclimate.  Even the one Daniel posted seems to be a 9b microclimate but it looks awesome compared to the one I posted!

[Xenon]

2 hours ago, Fusca said:

I don't consider a Bismarckia in 9b is a zone push - there are larger ones at the SA Riverwalk that I could have posted but I consider that area a 9b microclimate.  

I'm curious about what you consider a 9b microclimate, afaik San Antonio has no (few?) queen palms that predate 2010.  I use queen palms as an indicator for 9a and pygmy dates as a indicator for 9b.  Bismarckia does fine in Houston 9a and Ive seen specimens even just outside the "queen zone" in Rosenberg (8b/9a). 

[necturus]

Yeah, I don't think the ones in my 'hood are in a 9B microclimate. First off, they are out in the open. No wind break or cover whatsoever. Second, we are technically 9B over the last thirty years, but there is no comparison between this "9B" and a Florida/California 9B. Our bad freezes are longer duration and dip lower.

I forgot about the Bismarckia at Caldwell's in Rosenberg. They're a great example. I saw them recently, and they looked great. I don't think they have any queens, and I'm skeptical you'd find any long-term survivors in that area. Rosenberg runs at least 2-3 degrees colder than Houston and lacks the UHI effect, so the night after a bad advective freeze is just as bad if not worse.

My gut feeling is that a big Bismarckia is significantly hardier than big queen.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Zero queens around Caldwell's as everything was killed two years ago.  An arizona 9a or possibly downtown el Paso/Juarez 8b would be worth a try.  I feel confident after talking to @ahosey01 friend that lived in your town that you could successfully grow one of our bizzys to maturity.  She told me the coldest winter never burned the washingtonia robusta in/near her yard at all. Zero Washingtonia burn =living bismarckia 

[Fusca]

4 hours ago, Xenon said:

I'm curious about what you consider a 9b microclimate, afaik San Antonio has no (few?) queen palms that predate 2010.  I use queen palms as an indicator for 9a and pygmy dates as a indicator for 9b.  Bismarckia does fine in Houston 9a and Ive seen specimens even just outside the "queen zone" in Rosenberg (8b/9a). 

I'm not aware of any queen palms around SA that predate 2010.  There are only one or two that are of any size along the Riverwalk in the area that I referred to but I have no idea about when they were planted.  It's a pretty unique part of the downtown area surrounded by tall buildings, sunken below street level with the water effect.  I haven't been here long enough to know how cold it's been in the past in that specific area but from what I've read they tried planting a foxtail and at least one triangle somewhere along the Riverwalk and neither survived.  So it might not be quite 9b - perhaps just a high 9a.  But it's certainly warmer and a prime area for a 9a zone push compared with my garden.  The Bismarckias that I've seen there suffered little to no damage after 20°F at my house in January 2018.

[Xenon]

12 hours ago, necturus said:

Rosenberg runs at least 2-3 degrees colder than Houston and lacks the UHI effect, so the night after a bad advective freeze is just as bad if not worse.

More like 5-10 degrees colder most nights if you're comparing to 610.  Rosenberg usually runs 2 degrees colder than even Katy ~east of SH 99. You have to head well into Sugar Land to find large queen palms in SW Houston. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Xenon

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

@Xenon I did find a few queens in some rougher neighborhoods north of 610 not too far from i45 that actually survived 2018. I though everything up there died but a few big ones hung on.  Nothing north of the beltway made it from what I have seen driving around.  There are also a few big queens near downtown, which didnt surprise me as it is very warm there. 

[ahosey01]

On 8/24/2020 at 11:52 PM, Meangreen94z said:

There are a lot of them in South Houston that survived 18-20*F in January 2018. Probably the one with the fullest spread of fronds is up against a Lowe’s in Clear Lake(South Houston).

Seems like they coulda maybe gave that thing just a touch more space.. lol

[Xenon]

Here is the Bismarckia on I10 in Katy 

[Xenon]

13 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

@Xenon I did find a few queens in some rougher neighborhoods north of 610 not too far from i45 that actually survived 2018. I though everything up there died but a few big ones hung on.  Nothing north of the beltway made it from what I have seen driving around.  There are also a few big queens near downtown, which didnt surprise me as it is very warm there. 

There are a few survivors at the hotels near IAH and Humble, there were more that might've recovered but were removed probably for aesthetic reasons.  I also did a quick streetview and found some survivors north of BW8 and along I45 near Greenspoint and slightly north of there.  I think the complete kill line in north Houston probably roughly follows FM-1960. I visit family that live a few lights north of 1960 near Klein/Spring and I haven't seen any (once plentiful) large queens there. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Xenon

[Jeff985]

12 hours ago, Xenon said:

There are a few survivors at the hotels near IAH and Humble, there were more that might've recovered but were removed probably for aesthetic reasons.  I also did a quick streetview and found some survivors north of BW8 and along I45 near Greenspoint and slightly north of there.  I think the complete kill line in north Houston probably roughly follows FM-1960. I visit family that live a few lights north of 1960 near Klein/Spring and I haven't seen any (once plentiful) large queens there. 

I actually just spent a couple days at a friend’s house in that area. He lives near 249 & fm1960. There were several big queens in his neighborhood. Nextdoor to him was one that had probably 30 feet of trunk. What really surprised me was his schefflera arboricola that survived 2018. He said he thought it was dead. It did nothing for two years, then a couple months ago it just started growing new leaves. It looks really good now. 

[Collectorpalms]

I have one remaining mature Queen and Bismark in College Station. 90 miles NW of Houston. Unprotected at 14.5 degrees.

[DAVEinMB]

1 hour ago, Collectorpalms said:

I have one remaining mature Queen and Bismark in College Station. 90 miles NW of Houston. Unprotected at 14.5 degrees.

Got any pics? 

[ahosey01]

3 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

I have one remaining mature Queen and Bismark in College Station. 90 miles NW of Houston. Unprotected at 14.5 degrees.

Show us!  Where did you get them?

Edited August 29, 2020 by ahosey01

[Collectorpalms]

The queen is a 1980s freeze survivor Offspring from Texas. It does have trunk damage. I had another survive but a wind storm cut it in half. Forecast was 17 one night in 2018 and we hit 14.5. Killed 5 huge ones. One box storm Queen that never got fat surprised survived but growth was weak and yellow the following summer. A 27f the following winter killed it, lol. 

I had 25 of various mostly box store queens die. I usually took them out after they got hit in 2010 or 2011.? 
 

I have one hardier South American type left in a pot that I got from Jeff Marcus. Most were easily damaged when young, so I am waiting on this one to get huge, but I do not think they get as fat, which is the key to survival in Texas.

However with mules now. I have several. Most not completely defoliated at 14.5F, but some were. I was sad to see some other people’s died in Zone 8b in just rural areas die at 12-13 degrees that night.

The remaining Bismarck is sad. I grew it from seed. It is in hard pan clay and never grows a trunk, it’s been over crowded by Washingtonia filfera and s big live oak. I consider it a fancy Sabal minor. 

i have however on raised mounds got them up to about two feet of trunk before the got froze or I took them out. Once I saw Sabal Uresana, I planted them! 

I should say in my area most years I am a zone 9+ due to my microclimate of city and buildings, but when big cold fronts do come I can hit just below 20, and have two consecutive days below freezing of 25-30f. My 30 year average low was 18.9 now. I think now once you take out 1989 I am probably around 23.
 

 

Edited August 30, 2020 by Collectorpalms

[necturus]

I went by Caldwell's Nursery today and snapped a picture of the Bismarckia. You can only see one of the two here. They had to see below twenty two years in a row. You can also see a clump of Arenga engleri that completely defoliated in the same freezes.

[Collectorpalms]

it has not grown really since 2012 google street view. As a nursery they may have brought in a large palm and have an advantage. but there is a farmers field next door with good looking soil and it sits in a drainage area and must get a lot of water. USDA CLIMATE ZONE 9A 22.3F, or 3.4 F on average warmer than here. though that is a rural zone 9a. 

[Meangreen94z]

On 8/29/2020 at 7:11 AM, Collectorpalms said:

I have one remaining mature Queen and Bismark in College Station. 90 miles NW of Houston. Unprotected at 14.5 degrees.

Was that your only Bismarckia? Or only Bismarckia to survive?

[sonoranfans]

Best zone stretch for bizzies is a dry radiational event.  In 2007 in gilbert arizona (9a) my yard had 4 bizzies, it hit 21F and defoliated them.  One died in a wet soil area near a rose garden(they hate wet roots in winter), the rest pulled through despite being totally exposed, no overhead tree or nearby concrete building to keep them warm.  Because the duration of cold is much shorter a 21F radiational event didnt kill them where a 21F advective event would have killed them all here in florida.  In Wickenburg AZ, it will always be a dry radiational event so that zone 9a is an easier 9a to work with than san antonio.  But microclimates matter, the riverwalk is a great microclimate.

[necturus]

Xenon and I have provided ample evidence that mature, trunking Bismarckia can survive a 21F advective event in a wet (i.e. Gulf Coast) environment. We have provided photographic evidence of five specimens that have done just that and more.

The two in my neighborhood are completely exposed and survived two back-to-back winters with advective freezes between 19-21. They have beautiful full crowns right now without any noticeable trunk damage. The specimen above in Katy, TX (Xenon's picture) is also completely exposed and undoubtedly saw below 20 degrees in those same freezes. Finally, the ones I just shared have some protection from the west, but our freezes come from the north, and the temperatures were just as low there as in Katy. None of these have any microclimate to speak of. There certainly are others examples of Bismarckia with protection around, but I don't think they look any better.

Obviously, these are mature specimens, and I can say from experience that smaller Bismarckia probably won't survive those same freezes (mine didn't!). Even short (1-2 feet) trunks can die. While I always hope we never see freezes like those again, I suspect the Houston area will increasingly provide good data on the cold tolerance of these, as they are starting to pop up more. My gut feeling is these are every bit as hardy as queens and probably more so.

Collectorpalms, you are right that these were probably brought in fairly large, and I agree that plays a big role in their survival. I don't think the plants out front get any supplemental irrigation. That area is a cold zone 9a. Like Xenon and others have said, queens do not survive out there. 

[Collectorpalms]

Are there any 5 gallon or larger   Bismarcks available in the Houston area? I really like Sabal Uresana but I still like Bismark. The ones I have had grew slower than the surrounding plants and got over crowded.

[Xenon]

3 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Are there any 5 gallon or larger   Bismarcks available in the Houston area? I really like Sabal Uresana but I still like Bismark. The ones I have had grew slower than the surrounding plants and got over crowded.

Definitely, even the big box stores have them sometimes. I've also seen many larger (already trunking) specimens appearing in local landscapes in the past few years. 

[Collectorpalms]

23 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Definitely, even the big box stores have them sometimes. I've also seen many larger (already trunking) specimens appearing in local landscapes in the past few years. 

I meant currently. Its a big city, I no longer have time to hit every store.  Unfortunately in needs to be something that a car can transport. the truck fees are too pricy for 1 palm.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Collectorpalms

[Collectorpalms]

At what temperature does Bismarckia reliably burn? For Example, queens reliably start to burn at 22F for me. I have forgotten about Bismarkia, I know the cool weather turns the smaller ones a purplish color.

2010 Raditional event I hit 17F

2011 Advective event I hit 17F

2018 I hit 14.5 when I got an unusual east wind that brought in cooler area from the rural area, I am protected from every other wind direction, so that was a bit of freak event for me.

Just about every year I am above 23F, Some years I do not even get a hard freeze. Therefore 23 is my guide. I can get palms to a good size if than can take 23 and not get burned. I also do not get frost events. I live on a bit of a slope. I live just below the highest elevation in the county.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Collectorpalms

[Meangreen94z]

Most Lowe’s on the south side still have large Bismarckia. I want to say the large 10-15 gallon size is $99.

[Collectorpalms]

2 hours ago, Meangreen94z said:

Most Lowe’s on the south side still have large Bismarckia. I want to say the large 10-15 gallon size is $99.

Thanks. If anyone can get the upc or item number I can go to brickseek.com and find them. I noticed that the mules that Lowe’s had this spring sold. Our Lowe’s had a great deal on miss-labeled Trachycarpus fortunia that were wagys but they sold too.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Collectorpalms

[howfam]

On 8/25/2020 at 2:52 AM, Meangreen94z said:

There are a lot of them in South Houston that survived 18-20*F in January 2018. Probably the one with the fullest spread of fronds is up against a Lowe’s in Clear Lake(South Houston).

What Street is this Lowe's on ?

[Meangreen94z]

48 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

Thanks. If anyone can get the upc or item number I can go to brickseek.com and find them. I noticed that the mules that Lowe’s had this spring sold. Our Lowe’s had a great deal on miss-labeled Trachycarpus fortunia that were wagys but they sold too.

I need to get some soil anyways, I’ll try to stop by tonight.

[Collectorpalms]

15 minutes ago, howfam said:

What Street is this Lowe's on ?

Street view:

https://goo.gl/maps/GscBHEGYSWrRqYww8

Edited September 14, 2020 by Collectorpalms

[Meangreen94z]

14 minutes ago, howfam said:

What Street is this Lowe's on ?

I45 and Bay Area Blvd. Over by the lumber section of the building.

[howfam]

2 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Street view:

https://goo.gl/maps/GscBHEGYSWrRqYww8

Ok, thanks. I found it on Streetview. I think Bismarckia has a lot of potential in that area.

[Jeff985]

I like this one better. It’s about 10 miles east of the one at Lowe’s. Not far from my house. 

[Fusca]

41 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

I like this one better. It’s about 10 miles east of the one at Lowe’s. Not far from my house. 

Nice one!

[Collectorpalms]

2 hours ago, Jeff985 said:

I like this one better. It’s about 10 miles east of the one at Lowe’s. Not far from my house. 

That would put you almost to Galveston Bay and in a solid zone 9. Are the Date Palms still on NASA Parkway?