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Coconut Palm Question


winston.demartini

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Hi guys, 

I was wondering what might be wrong with my coconut palm. His newest leaves are much more yellow looking than his oldest. I've had this palm for a little over a gear now and he is just starting to yellow. I have been feeding him miricle grow with a 2-1-1 ratio (water dissolve) for about 3-4 months and early this month added notice grow granular for palms and cactus. He still continues to yellow though. I've read that nitrogen deficiencies are big for potted palms and this is one way they show it. But I am not sure if is the issue because of the fertilizer I am giving it. I also water the palm every day because it's summer so it's outside now and it's hot and dry. What's your opinion on why it might be Yellowing and tips drying out? 

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Key words, hot and dry. They need humidity to survive. I think everything else is fine, but humidity is where the problem is. It also looks like its a little sun bleached aswell. Did you acclimate it to the sun and the heat? 

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Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 2 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 1 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 2 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 1 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 9 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa

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I would guess that it is a problem with the roots/soil.  What kind of soil is it in.  The roots of the coconut palm should stay moist but not wet, so a mix of sand and potting mix is what I personally use.  I mean like at least 50% sand. 

Honestly, I am not sure if your palm is too far gone or not but if it is in wet heavy soil, I would immediately transplant it into some sandy, free-draining soil and perhaps treat with some fungicide as well.

There is also an off chance it could be a severe nutritional deficiency, but I am not an expert at diagnosing those in small potted coconut palms.  Nutritional deficiencies are easy to recognize in large, trunking coconuts.  I don't think that is it though since your palm is still small and attached to the nut, from which it derives nutrients for some time after germination.

As far as humidity, I have seen healthy large coconut palms growing in locations with low humidity as long as they get enough water.  Dubai being an example, among other places in the Middle East.  Granted, they don't look quite as lush and deep green as ones in wet, tropical regions, but they survive with water.  Your humidity should not be so low as to be a problem in New York anytime of the year it is safe to keep a coconut outside when temperatures are warm enough.

Is the plant getting too dry between waterings?  The roots should always stay at least a bit moist.  It may very well need a good heavy watering at least once per day in hot, dry conditions.

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That looks like sun damage to me.  Even a coconut will bleach in the sun outdoors , in the North, if it is not acclimated to direct sunlight after being in a dark interior..., nothing to do with humidity..., it's humid enough. It can also use a larger, deeper container. That black, plastic pot is baking its roots in the sun on your deck.

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That's interesting. from what you guys are saying I think it might be sunn damage then.  The soil is a mix of dirt and about 30 to 40% sand, so it is well draining. Every day I water it in the morning and then by the next morning, it's relatively dry and give it another good watering.  During the winter I kept it inside under a purple grow 80 watt LED and it was happy under that. I may have transitioned it too quickly to the sun outside back in may. I did it in one hour increments for a week. For example, day 1, outside 1 hour then back on LED, day 2, outside 2 hours then back on LED, etc. and I did that until it was out for a full day which took around a week. Do you think this could have been too quick? Also, the lowest temperature yellow malayan's can withstand for a long period of time is around 60 degrees right? That's when I transitioned it outside, if that lends any more insight at all. That's not a bad idea to put it in a different pot, I can see where a black plastic pot wouldn't be too good in the heat. 

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Also, is sun damage recoverable? If so how would I go about doing something about it? There is a new leaf that is still growing in the middle, a lot slower than it usually does, but it is growing.

Edited by winston.demartini
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Sun damage, put it in bright shade (no direct sun) when you put it outdoor for a couple more years. If it survives, then start giving it a little early morning or late day direct sun after the leaves have started going fully pinnate.

And no the damaged fronds will not recover. Leave them in place till they turn fully brown so the plant can take the nutrients back out of the living tissue. If you want to make it look better wait a couple weeks then cut off the dried out parts while leaving the areas of each frond that are still alive.

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I agree 100% with PalmsOrl that heat and low humidity is not a problem for coconut palms. There are mature trees in the upper Sonoran Desert near Palm Springs (La Quinta) and I have grown small plants (as I am currently) in Rancho Mirage nearby, without issue. They do fine in single-digit relative humidities under full sun at 114F+ without burning...as long as the leaves have been produced under those conditions.

As PalmsOrl mentioned, you may have issues with your soil and watering (sometimes that type of pale yellow leaf can be caused by overwatering/waterlogging). If I were in your position, I would pull the plant out of that container, hose all the soil medium away from the roots and do a root-exam. If the roots are thick and whitish with good white tips and lots of fine, branching small roots, then they are healthy and in active growth. If they are brown, soft, or off-white with brown tips, you have problems. To repair it, a very open, rocky/gritty soil medium that gives the roots oxygen would be roughly equal parts of fairly coarse (say, 1/4"-3/8") pumice; some kind of firm bark (as found in "fine" grade orchid mixes), or chunky pieces of coconut coir (fiber) such as is sold as "coco mulch"; and perhaps a mix of some calcined clay pieces (as used in bonsai) for water retention; and some very coarse sand. Then shift up to a larger container; and water, and also spray the leaves with a low-dose mixture of water and Miracid-type fertilizer, making sure you spray the backs of the leaves for maximum absorption (this may actually green up those central pale yellow leaves a little, if their problem is some sort of deficiency). Then I would place it in dappled shade (or under shade-cloth) and just let it recover (it will take months) in the nice, hot, humid New York summer. Eventually you could add some finer humus (coco-peat or peat-moss) to the top and let the water wash it down into the root-zone a little...but be careful not to add too much. It could get you right back where you started.

The long and the short of it is that coconuts are very easy and forgiving in the ground in a tropical climate, and very finicky in a pot in a less-than-tropical location. Most people buy and then re-buy the next year, treating them as annual summer decorations.

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Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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I agree, I don't think it's a moisture problem because it gets very humid/ moist at night during NY summers. 

I put the palm in the shade this morning, so hopefully he does a little better there. 

Do you think I should pull it out and look at the roots? Is there any way to help reduce the stress caused to them when doing this? The soil drains quickly (30%-40%) sand and on the bottom of the pot I can see a few roots through the holes and they look white at the tip of them. 

Also, if I do end up pulling it out, what size pot should I plant it in? Should the pot be more wide than deep -- I heard their roots grow more out to one side horizontally, rather than depth/ downward. 

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I tend to use deep pots for almost all of my palms, but I will use be more generous in the horizontal dimension for those palms that freely pup/sucker (Rhapis/Lady Palms, Caryota/Fishtail, Chamaerops/Med fans), for a coconut, I would use a deeper container (don't think it needs the horizontal width). I will be transplanting my own Dwarf, Golden Malayan this weekend. Once it starts showing some nice, green growth, I would also feed with a high nitrogen fertilizer. Good luck!

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I wish Keith Zimmerman would comment on this thread...

My own opinion is a squatter container rather than deep one for a Cocos, maybe a seven-gallon nursery pot or equivalent. Cocos naturally throw a wide "net" of roots through the sand (or whatever substrate they're in) and this not only gives them good access to nutrients in a normally nutrient-poor environment, but also tremendous stability in hurricane-force winds. A friend of mine on the Long Beach "spit" of Big Pine Key said that after a major hurricane (I think it was either Wilma or Georges), all the beach-sand was washed away in the storm. What was left was coconut palms standing as they were before the storm, with an incredible mat of roots that he said extended as far as he could see away from the palms, up and down the beach. They are amazing! And unfortunately yet another reason they're not really very deft at living in containers long-term.

And I wouldn't be afraid to pull the plant out and hose off the roots, as coconuts are very, very forgiving. Broken roots can branch just above the break, and they really don't seem to "shock" like many other plants when this is done to them. Most folks who live in South Florida know what I'm talking about...we are all very rude when we want to give away or relocate coconuts that come up where we don't want them, or if they just sprout on the mulch-pile, so to speak. Most people have a collection in their yards that starts as a pile of cannonballs and after six months they are nothing but a big headache and then you let the word out that you've got extras. They endure being pulled, yanked, torn, thrown in the beds of pickup trucks with no soil for transport, etc....generally abused...and they do fine when relocated, as long as they get some soakings and a spell in the shade while they bolster their root-mass. Unfortunately it's a bit tougher for a coconut that finds itself in northern latitudes.
 

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Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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8 minutes ago, mnorell said:

I wish Keith Zimmerman would comment on this thread...

Let's mention him ( @Zeeth ) so he knows.

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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Thanks, Kinzy. I am still learning how some of these newfangled features work...

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Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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In my humble opinion,  I would choose a wide container for a semi-dwarf coconut palm. However for a tall variety, i would invariably select a deep container for it. 

Tap root and the like.....

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5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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I googled what their roots looked like and they get pretty wide rather than depth so I feel like a wider pot may be better suited. But, I really don't have much knowledge to base this off of other than pictures.  On a side note, they are some pretty impressive roots too, really expansive. 

That's good to know that they seem like relatively hardy plants when you pull them out. Should I wait to check the roots for when I get a new pot so I don't have to pull it out twice? 

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It definitely looks like something bad is happening in the root zone. I don't like mixing regular sand into my coconut soil because it tends to make drainage worse, rather than better, due to the small particle size. Coarse grit builder's sand is a good addition, but regular play sand will make the soil waterlogged (even if it looks like it's draining well).  I like Michael's suggestion for a coarse grit soil mix, especially since the palm will be in a container permanently. I would definitely get a larger pot as well, in the 7-15 gallon size. I don't think wide vs tall matters much in this case, since it'll probably fill the pot entirely with roots either way. 

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Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

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I agree with Keith in re the issues with sand...I used to have access to some very coarse builder's sand when I lived in Natchez and I would use it to sprout heliconias and for various other uses in potting/planting applications. But in the Keys I can't seem to find coarse enough sand at the usual home-improvement sources, and the same goes in California. In both instances I use paver sand since it is the most coarse, but it's just not coarse enough to mix with any kind of humus so I use it mostly in pure form for sprouting dicot seeds. I've just had an episode with rot setting into some sprouting heliconia rhizomes due to sand+coir, even in the presence of rocky material. It just mucks up and seals the pores. Instant death to the roots and an invitation to pathogens, and it's very difficult to judge the moisture content down into the root-zone. Hence I've gone over to using black lava-rock, pumice, and orchid mix that uses a more stable bark. I eventually add some finer material into it as the root-mass grows, but I just think it's dangerous at first. And everyone here who has purchased palms from Jeff Marcus (Floribunda Palms) in Hawai'i knows how beautifully containerized palms grow in pure, chunky black lava-rock. And the lava is good for me considering that I tend to be heavy-handed with the water.

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Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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I am definitely thinking this is a root problem then because when I potted it I mixed regular sand 30% to 40% (think beach coarseness) in with the dirt.  So from what you guys are saying I'll get a larger pot 7- 15 gallons (and I agree with you, the roots will probably just eventually take over the whole pot, so length and depth dont matter that much) and I will change out the soil/ sand mix for Michael's suggestion or at least something that is much more rocky/ airy for the roots to breath. I have a lot of extra pebbles from my driveway, would that work well to mix in with the soil to aerate it? Also, when its out of the pot, I will look over its roots to see what's going on under there. 

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I don't think you would want smooth pebbles if that's what you mean...everything should be a little jagged and porous. If you can't find lava-rock at a local home-improvement store, you could try going to an actual nursery and asking if they have it, or some pumice. It will do a good job if it's coarse enough, though it doesn't have the mineral content of lava-rock. I buy large bags at Home Depot and then I use a metal-headed mallet to smash the larger pieces into smaller bits, 1/4"-3/8" mostly. The dust is also very good to add to the pot. Then just add some kind of low-strength (organic) fertilizer, just a little at first. And as I said you can add some orchid mix to have a bit of slow-breakdown organics in the mix. Most nurseries and home-improvement stores carry bags of it, usually a mix of fir bark + perlite + charcoal. Avoid the coarse grade (huge hunks of bark) and go for fine-grade if you can find it (and avoid using pine-bark mulch as a substitute, it will break down and turn to mush too quickly). That orchid mix with the lava-rock makes for a nice basic aerated mix in my opinion. Don't go crazy trying to find all these exact ingredients, you can look around and improvise but you just want a gritty, toothy, jagged mineral-based mix and the orchid mix is just a plus if you can find it. You can also order these things on Amazon, though of course you will pay a bit of a premium probably. I hope that helps, it is working for me in a variety of applications.

Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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I use pumice on all my small cacti and succulents. Nurseries in FL don't know what pumice even is so I get mine from General Pumice.

https://www.generalpumiceproducts.com/

Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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I found a lot of jagged rocks and I mixed them with soil. The mixture came out to be probably around 50% to 60% jagged Rock and the rest dirt. I tried to use rocks of all sizes but mainly using rocks that were larger and more jagged. 

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Well, that's a tall coco variety alright.

Best of luck growing it. I believe the soil(dirt) is a bit too fine. In other words it seems it will be soggy.  Hopefully the rocks counterbalance my remote observation.

 

ETA: I would look for a larger container.  7gal+

Edited by GottmitAlex

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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Are there any holes in that container?

The roots dont look healthy to me.

Also, a wider container is a better choice than a small and deep container.

My 2 year-old coconut here in The Netherlands has a new wider container since 2 months and it’s throwing new spears all the time. My container has holes on the bottom of the container.

Also, look at the coconut seedling roots in picture 4. (From a Youtube video)

 

 

 

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Edited by MelvinB
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Yes, the pot I have right now does have holes in the bottom of it. I am going to get a larger 10 gallon pot soon to put it in and when I do I am going to try to make the soil from What Michael suggested. Hopefully the rocks will help it recover in the meantime. 

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Those dark-colored roots and the roots that "go dark" toward the bottom are probably rotted and dead. At least you have some good white roots as well, so you have not lost the game yet. But if I saw that, I would cut out any of the blackened material just for safety's sake. If you cut the white root tissue a bit above the blackened areas, the root should re-branch and continue to grow. And I agree with Alex that it might "mush out" with that soil in the mix, but as you say it's for a short time and you should just be careful not to water too much until you repot in the larger container with a more toothy, mineral-based mix. If you can find some paver-sand/paver-base, you could just mix that with the rocks and forget the soil altogether until you can gather the materials for a high-grade mix.

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Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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And Melvin, I think that is a really beautiful example of a potted Cocos nucifera, perfect form and wonderful aesthetic appeal with your meticulous choice of container and top-dressing. Please tell us your technique for growing it so nicely, as that is not an easy accomplishment, particularly in the Netherlands...

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Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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9 hours ago, mnorell said:

And Melvin, I think that is a really beautiful example of a potted Cocos nucifera, perfect form and wonderful aesthetic appeal with your meticulous choice of container and top-dressing. Please tell us your technique for growing it so nicely, as that is not an easy accomplishment, particularly in the Netherlands...

Thank you for your kind compliments. 

Yes, i will start my own thread about my Cocos Nucifera when i have the time for it. 

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On 6/18/2020 at 10:47 AM, Zeeth said:

It definitely looks like something bad is happening in the root zone. I don't like mixing regular sand into my coconut soil because it tends to make drainage worse, rather than better, due to the small particle size. Coarse grit builder's sand is a good addition, but regular play sand will make the soil waterlogged (even if it looks like it's draining well).  I like Michael's suggestion for a coarse grit soil mix, especially since the palm will be in a container permanently. I would definitely get a larger pot as well, in the 7-15 gallon size. I don't think wide vs tall matters much in this case, since it'll probably fill the pot entirely with roots either way. 

Thank you for pointing that out Keith.  I have noticed the compaction that you mention, particularly in smaller pots over time when I use straight Florida sandy soil.  When one goes to repot, the substrate can be mushy and waterlogged despite being mostly (small-particled sand).  

I will make a point to use builder's sand for the sand component when I repot my Cocos, since Cocos should not be bothered by the alkalinity (I believe builder's sand is limestone-based).  Note, I still plan to substitute some of the sand for Vermiculite when repotting my Cocos to cut down on the weight.

I do not expect small particle sized playground sand to be a problem for most of my mixes that are 10-20% sand.  This is based on my observation and handling of the aforementioned mixes lately, both when it is wet and when the mix is dry.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 6/16/2020 at 6:09 PM, oasis371 said:

That looks like sun damage to me.  Even a coconut will bleach in the sun outdoors , in the North, if it is not acclimated to direct sunlight after being in a dark interior..., nothing to do with humidity..., it's humid enough. It can also use a larger, deeper container. That black, plastic pot is baking its roots in the sun on your deck.

Speaking of the North, perhaps the long sunlight duration during summer has something to do with it too.

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