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Piedmont Palmettos


NCFM

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Recently saw a fairly tall palmetto for piedmont standards while fishing Hyco Lake in NC (about 75 miles NW of Raleigh)

hyco.jpg.29169a5bcc863415a171e2f359c04639.jpghyco3.jpg.0d820a0d778dc1f96d6a068a74054d8c.jpg

hyco3.jpg.45add54be8e10484752f4faad0a38d7d.jpg

There was a smaller one growing nearby

hyco2.jpg.b1a597f01275effe1f0466f9365f41be.jpg

I saw tons of trachys around this lake but these were the only two sabals I spotted

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Wow. That's right near the VA border and 200 miles from the coast. I wonder if they receive any protection.  Im certainly impressed. Ive seen a few of trunking size  in Raleigh,  though the ones ive seen were Florida transplants and quite a few died over the years.  Some have made it pretty well though. 

20190923_123931-2.jpg

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On 4/7/2020 at 4:43 PM, NC_Palm_Enthusiast said:

Recently saw a fairly tall palmetto for piedmont standards while fishing Hyco Lake in NC (about 75 miles NW of Raleigh)

hyco.jpg.29169a5bcc863415a171e2f359c04639.jpghyco3.jpg.0d820a0d778dc1f96d6a068a74054d8c.jpg

hyco3.jpg.45add54be8e10484752f4faad0a38d7d.jpg

There was a smaller one growing nearby

hyco2.jpg.b1a597f01275effe1f0466f9365f41be.jpg

I saw tons of trachys around this lake but these were the only two sabals I spotted

Impressive! Makes me wonder if Falls Lake was private and had homes around it how many palms would be grown, similar to lake wylie and lake norman in charlotte. Hyco Lake is very far NW of here !

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On 4/11/2020 at 8:13 PM, knikfar said:

If they can survive there, I should be able to get some to do ok in my yard here in Raleigh 

I'm sure you could, I know many are successful with them in Charlotte

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On 4/12/2020 at 3:15 PM, Mr.SamuraiSword said:

Wow. That's right near the VA border and 200 miles from the coast. I wonder if they receive any protection.  Im certainly impressed. Ive seen a few of trunking size  in Raleigh,  though the ones ive seen were Florida transplants and quite a few died over the years.  Some have made it pretty well though. 

20190923_123931-2.jpg

Yes, I think if they would survive in Raleigh no problem. They just aren't planted very much there because people only like to see palms at the beach for some reason. There are hundreds in Charlotte and they do fine.

 

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Wow thats impressive. I am aware of the many Sabal palmetto in the Raleigh city limits but never NW of the city near the VA line. Thats pretty cool. 

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Zone 8a/8b Greenville, NC 

Zone 9a/9b Bluffton, SC

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On 4/13/2020 at 2:55 PM, NC_Palm_Enthusiast said:

 

Charlotte seems a bit warmer, quite a few older ones there and larger Buitia, while most Pindos seem to die during the worse than average winters in Raleigh.

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10 hours ago, NC_Palms said:

Wow thats impressive. I am aware of the many Sabal palmetto in the Raleigh city limits but never NW of the city near the VA line. Thats pretty cool. 

Yes, they certainly aren't common this far west. I wish more people would plant them, though.

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10 hours ago, Mr.SamuraiSword said:

Charlotte seems a bit warmer, quite a few older ones there and larger Buitia, while most Pindos seem to die during the worse than average winters in Raleigh.

Yeah I think the mountains protect Charlotte a little more from arctic air masses or something. There are definitely more palms there than in Raleigh

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On 4/15/2020 at 12:44 AM, Mr.SamuraiSword said:

Charlotte seems a bit warmer, quite a few older ones there and larger Buitia, while most Pindos seem to die during the worse than average winters in Raleigh.

Opposite, Charlotte is actually a little COOLER than Raleigh on average.  Past few years came down to snowstorms timed right with a cold front causing optimal radiational cooling. That's it, if anything Raleigh is the one more shielded from cold blasts being further east.  In the United States once east  of  the Rockies , the further east you are the less impact arctic fronts have ( Nashville averages vs Greensboro, Raleigh vs Little Rock etc.).

 

Why does nobody check climate stats before making claims? This is a palm forum we should be some of the most knowledgeable on climate!

Edited by PalmsNC
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The Charlotte area has some palmettos around.  I pass by some transplants frequently in several commercial locations (Charlotte, Cramerton, Matthews)..  In Albemarle, I used to live across the street from an old one grown from seed collected near Calabash,  The owner told me it was 30 years old.  Mt Holly had a palmetto that supposedly survived below 0 years ago.  I live near Mt Holly, but haven't seen it personally.  Occasionally I see palmettos near Lake Wylie.  Windmills are far more common.  At my old house, I owned a large supposedly Riverside palmetto.  Not the hardiest variety, but good placement went a long way to surviving 2 degrees.  It had several feet of trunk, even though it theoretically shouldn't have survived.  I assume it's still there after 17 years.

 

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God bless America...

and everywhere else too.

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On 4/16/2020 at 12:47 PM, PalmsNC said:

Opposite, Charlotte is actually a little COOLER than Raleigh on average.  Past few years came down to snowstorms timed right with a cold front causing optimal radiational cooling. That's it, if anything Raleigh is the one more shielded from cold blasts being further east.  In the United States once east  of  the Rockies , the further east you are the less impact arctic fronts have ( Nashville averages vs Greensboro, Raleigh vs Little Rock etc.).

 

Why does nobody check climate stats before making claims? This is a palm forum we should be some of the most knowledgeable on climate!

Well regardless of climate there are definitely more palms around Charlotte. I guess it must just be due to the fact that they are right on the SC line and palms are much more commonly planted in SC due to the Palmetto being one of their state icons. It seems to me that in places like Greensboro and Raleigh people think they should only see palms at the beach. Hopefully that attitude is changing

Edited by NC_Palm_Enthusiast
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16 hours ago, VA Jeff said:

The Charlotte area has some palmettos around.  I pass by some transplants frequently in several commercial locations (Charlotte, Cramerton, Matthews)..  In Albemarle, I used to live across the street from an old one grown from seed collected near Calabash,  The owner told me it was 30 years old.  Mt Holly had a palmetto that supposedly survived below 0 years ago.  I live near Mt Holly, but haven't seen it personally.  Occasionally I see palmettos near Lake Wylie.  Windmills are far more common.  At my old house, I owned a large supposedly Riverside palmetto.  Not the hardiest variety, but good placement went a long way to surviving 2 degrees.  It had several feet of trunk, even though it theoretically shouldn't have survived.  I assume it's still there after 17 years.

 

Yeah I've seen a ton of palmettos around Lake Wylie. You should check out PalmsrKool on youtube, he does videos on palms around the Charlotte area.

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2 hours ago, NC_Palm_Enthusiast said:

Well regardless of climate there are definitely more palms around Charlotte. I guess it must just be due to the fact that they are right on the SC line and palms are much more commonly planted in SC due to the Palmetto being one of their state icons. It seems to me that in places like Greensboro and Raleigh people think they should only see palms at the beach. Hopefully that attitude is changing

 

I wish more folks here would do the same with hardy palms and more so for the beach instead of planting coconuts planting palms that would stick around. At the very least folks here should plant rhapidophyllum and sabal minors for a cooler look.

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LOWS 16/17 12F, 17/18 3F, 18/19 7F, 19/20 20F

Palms growing in my garden: Trachycarpus Fortunei, Chamaerops Humilis, Chamaerops Humilis var. Cerifera, Rhapidophyllum Hystrix, Sabal Palmetto 

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Everytime i visit Charlotte I see more Palms being put up.  Especially around the lake areas.  Depending on which data you use Raleigh and Charlotte basically have the same average highs and lows. Raleigh has had a colder record tempature though and does get on average more snow every Winter than Charlotte.  The surrounding lake area towns where most palms are planted probably have milder lows in the Winter though.

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9 minutes ago, Ninja88 said:

Everytime i visit Charlotte I see more Palms being put up.  Especially around the lake areas.  Depending on which data you use Raleigh and Charlotte basically have the same average highs and lows. Raleigh has had a colder record tempature though and does get on average more snow every Winter than Charlotte.  The surrounding lake area towns where most palms are planted probably have milder lows in the Winter though.

I wonder if Raleigh gets a more direct northerly cold air drain from the north then Charlotte does? This may cause more prolonged cold then Charlotte sees. I had the opposed up north where I lived in a valley that actually stretched all the way from the Canadian boarder to NYC. My prevailing winds were from the South, which is very unusual for that part of the country. I have not looked but the surrounding area around Raleigh is pretty flat, more so then Charlotte. Also Raleigh is at ~300ft ASL while Charlotte is about twice that so you would think that Raleigh would be warmer. The Appalachian mountains actually hook to the east directly north of Charlotte, if you travel up rt. 77 you hit a significant climb over the mountains. There is nothing like that to the north of Raleigh to offer and protection. I have a hunch that nearby topography might be the key factor in this case.  

 

However, it may just be palm mentality in the area. I'm 2 hours south of Charlotte and half the elevation and  even in my cold spot I'm currently renting in we are several degrees warmer then the Charlotte area. Sabals, and Butia are all over the place, even a fair amount of Phoenix spp can be found.  As you get closer to Lake Murray the low temperatures moderate even more so. 

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Ive said it once, here is my proof. Further east you are the more protection from cold you are offered. Overlay a map of hardiness zones and the min on the winter jet stream position exactly matches the lowest latitude zone 7b/8a line , after that the line climbs northeast just like the jet stream.

 

polar_front_summer_winter.jpg

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On 4/16/2020 at 12:47 PM, PalmsNC said:

Opposite, Charlotte is actually a little COOLER than Raleigh on average.  Past few years came down to snowstorms timed right with a cold front causing optimal radiational cooling. That's it, if anything Raleigh is the one more shielded from cold blasts being further east.  In the United States once east  of  the Rockies , the further east you are the less impact arctic fronts have ( Nashville averages vs Greensboro, Raleigh vs Little Rock etc.).

 

Why does nobody check climate stats before making claims? This is a palm forum we should be some of the most knowledgeable on climate!

I try to be educated on climate so I do my research. And different online sources say the opposite things with regards to the climate comparison between Raleigh and Charlotte. This site says Charlotte is slightly warmer: https://www.bestplaces.net/climate/?c1=53712000&c2=53755000 But this site says Raleigh is slightly warmer: https://www.weatherbase.com/compare.php3?first=41327&second=60327.  In the end, who cares? I think we can all agree that we're here to be part of a community with a shared passion. And that we should be respectful of one another and not imply someone didn't do their research. 

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22 hours ago, knikfar said:

I try to be educated on climate so I do my research. And different online sources say the opposite things with regards to the climate comparison between Raleigh and Charlotte. This site says Charlotte is slightly warmer: https://www.bestplaces.net/climate/?c1=53712000&c2=53755000 But this site says Raleigh is slightly warmer: https://www.weatherbase.com/compare.php3?first=41327&second=60327.  In the end, who cares? I think we can all agree that we're here to be part of a community with a shared passion. And that we should be respectful of one another and not imply someone didn't do their research. 

The only reliable source that compiles legitimate stats is NOAA.  This website is your best friend in regards to climate data https://w2.weather.gov/climate/index.php?wfo=rah

 

Official Annual High/Low/Mean 1981-2010:

RDU: 71.6/49.9/ 60.8

CLT: 70.9/48.7/59.8

GSO ( Greensboro): 69.2/49.0/59.1

 

Charlottes annual mean is actually closer to Greensboro than it is Raleigh, I will add some caveats here though. Raleigh has a mean minimum of 10 1981-2010 where as Charlotte has a mean minimum of 11 1981-2010. I speculate that has more to do with station placement rather than one location being more sheltered than the other, keep in mind Raleighs airport is locate 10 miles nw of the city at a higher elevation in a sandy location with minimal UHI , Charlottes airport is located near a large river, but also has minimal UHI ( although nowadays Id argue Charlotte's station is surrounded by UHI as it is more developed). Charlottes metro area also varies in elevation much more than Raleigh, Charlotte itself averaging around 700 feet of elevation but with a greater range with places to the east and south of charlotte in dropping to 500 feet. Whereas Raleighs elevation is around 300 feet , with a steady drop heading east since Raleigh is along the Atlantic Seaboard fault line.

 

I don't mean to come across as arrogant here, my goal is more so to provide some resources for everyone's benefit such as the link I posted.

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1 hour ago, PalmsNC said:

The only reliable source that compiles legitimate stats is NOAA.  This website is your best friend in regards to climate data https://w2.weather.gov/climate/index.php?wfo=rah

 

Official Annual High/Low/Mean 1981-2010:

RDU: 71.6/49.9/ 60.8

CLT: 70.9/48.7/59.8

GSO ( Greensboro): 69.2/49.0/59.1

 

Charlottes annual mean is actually closer to Greensboro than it is Raleigh, I will add some caveats here though. Raleigh has a mean minimum of 10 1981-2010 where as Charlotte has a mean minimum of 11 1981-2010. I speculate that has more to do with station placement rather than one location being more sheltered than the other, keep in mind Raleighs airport is locate 10 miles nw of the city at a higher elevation in a sandy location with minimal UHI , Charlottes airport is located near a large river, but also has minimal UHI ( although nowadays Id argue Charlotte's station is surrounded by UHI as it is more developed). Charlottes metro area also varies in elevation much more than Raleigh, Charlotte itself averaging around 700 feet of elevation but with a greater range with places to the east and south of charlotte in dropping to 500 feet. Whereas Raleighs elevation is around 300 feet , with a steady drop heading east since Raleigh is along the Atlantic Seaboard fault line.

 

I don't mean to come across as arrogant here, my goal is more so to provide some resources for everyone's benefit such as the link I posted.

Good response and I appreciate the info. I certainly hope Raleigh is warmer than Charlotte. I keep hearing about all of these palms in Charlotte and I want to try more of them here in Raleigh. I've heard some people say they have Pindos in Charlotte. But I haven't seen any of those here. 

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Check out Daniel Stowe botanical garden near Charlotte. They have many palms that have been there for a long time. 

Edited by Brad Mondel

Los Angeles, CA and Myrtle Beach, SC.

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6 hours ago, Brad Mondel said:

Check out Daniel Stowe botanical garden near Charlotte. They have many palms that have been there for a long time. 

I live right near Stowe Botanical Garden.  Other than the greenhouse and a few palms, there really isn't much to see there.  Due to the coronavirus and funding issues, it's not certain they're ever opening again. 

Now the Columbia Zoo in SC is a different story.  Much better gardens there.

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God bless America...

and everywhere else too.

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Want to see a garden with lots of subtropical s including lots of palms? JC Raulston Arboretum is the place to see in Piedmont NC.  Another cool place is the Duke Gardens which has a forest floor littered with hundreds of reproducing sabal minors.  Nothing other than windmills and sabal minors at the duke gardens though when it comes to palms , maybe there are some needles and sabal palms, havent been in years.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Albemarle, NC palmetto after a bad winter 2017 - 2018.  Planted as a seedling.  Never protected.  Located in 7b  between Charlotte and Raleigh.

albemarle palmetto.jpg

Edited by VA Jeff
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God bless America...

and everywhere else too.

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Wow, those are far inland! I want to know their story of how they got there and what happens to them in the winter. They look old. 

PalmTreeDude

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On 5/6/2020 at 9:47 PM, PalmTreeDude said:

Wow, those are far inland! I want to know their story of how they got there and what happens to them in the winter. They look old. 

The Albemarle palm came from seed collected by the owner's brother, who lived in Calabash, NC on the coast near the SC border.  When it was quite young, she planted it in the ground, approximately 25 years ago.  It was across the street from a house I lived in, ironically.  I took this picture a few months after it saw low single digits.  Probably below 0 at some point in the last 25 years.  There were very few seeds on the palm when I gathered a few, but I mixed them in a big sack of sabal seeds from different sources. 

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God bless America...

and everywhere else too.

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