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Jubaea Decline


buffy

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Each frond is smaller than the last. Being doing this since the 8F freeze.

20200125_144707.jpg

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Longview, Texas :: Record Low: -5F, Feb. 16, 2021 :: Borderline 8A/8B :: '06-'07: 18F / '07-'08: 21F / '08-'09: 21F / '09-'10: 14F / '10-'11: 15F / '11-'12: 24F / '12-'13: 23F / '13-'14: 15F / '14-'15: 20F / '15-'16: 27F / '16-'17: 15F / '17-'18: 8F / '18-'19: 23F / '19-'20: 19F / '20-'21: -5F / '21-'22: 20F / '22-'23: 6F

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It's been declining for two years.

Longview, Texas :: Record Low: -5F, Feb. 16, 2021 :: Borderline 8A/8B :: '06-'07: 18F / '07-'08: 21F / '08-'09: 21F / '09-'10: 14F / '10-'11: 15F / '11-'12: 24F / '12-'13: 23F / '13-'14: 15F / '14-'15: 20F / '15-'16: 27F / '16-'17: 15F / '17-'18: 8F / '18-'19: 23F / '19-'20: 19F / '20-'21: -5F / '21-'22: 20F / '22-'23: 6F

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Hope, it's still green...

07690.gif

elevation 328 feet

distance from mediteranean sea 1,1 mile

lowest t° 2009/2010 : 27F

lowest t° 2008/2009 : 33F

lowest t° 2007/2008 : 32F

lowest t° 2006/2007 : 35F

lowest t° 2005/2006 : 27F

lowest t° 2004/2005 : 25F

Historical lowest t° 1985 : 18F

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Have you tried applying a copper fungicide? Perhaps a mild fungal infection from the cold snap two years ago is stunting the fronds? Being a slow grower I imagine it must take some time to recover from any damage from that cold snap. Even as a preventative measure in the winter I might consider applying it regardless.  No much I can add otherwise.    

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@buffy What is the fertilization schedule like for this palm?

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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I fertilize some, but no deliberate pattern. The decline is consistent and getting worse.  Sandy loam. Clay 18 inches down. Good growing soil. Acid soils. Fungus is the only logical idea I have.

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Longview, Texas :: Record Low: -5F, Feb. 16, 2021 :: Borderline 8A/8B :: '06-'07: 18F / '07-'08: 21F / '08-'09: 21F / '09-'10: 14F / '10-'11: 15F / '11-'12: 24F / '12-'13: 23F / '13-'14: 15F / '14-'15: 20F / '15-'16: 27F / '16-'17: 15F / '17-'18: 8F / '18-'19: 23F / '19-'20: 19F / '20-'21: -5F / '21-'22: 20F / '22-'23: 6F

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Not yet.

Longview, Texas :: Record Low: -5F, Feb. 16, 2021 :: Borderline 8A/8B :: '06-'07: 18F / '07-'08: 21F / '08-'09: 21F / '09-'10: 14F / '10-'11: 15F / '11-'12: 24F / '12-'13: 23F / '13-'14: 15F / '14-'15: 20F / '15-'16: 27F / '16-'17: 15F / '17-'18: 8F / '18-'19: 23F / '19-'20: 19F / '20-'21: -5F / '21-'22: 20F / '22-'23: 6F

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You may want to try posting over on EPS. Lots of folks are growing Jubaea over there in cooler climates. They might be able to offer a more definitive suggestions 

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At a minimum, I would try cleaning all the debris out of the crown and pouring a dose of peroxide in the crown.  If it fizzes up, then you likely have microbe issues of some kind as you and others have suggested.  If you do, a good dose of fungicide wouldn't hurt either.

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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Sorry to see the decline. I’ve had my Jubea for over 20 years In a similar climate. but have never experienced that type of decline. 
I wonder if it could be a manganese deficiency?
Our low this winter has been about 22F. And we have deep alkaline soils. 

Here is a pic of mine in Dallas. It had been in the shade of a tall tree which had since been removed and is speeding up growth. 
 

 

81F7D998-7BCC-44D3-805A-F76ADDA7A571.jpeg

925B0F4B-E85E-4AC2-9E67-03632DC44515.jpeg

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On 1/27/2020 at 12:21 PM, buffy said:

Fungus is the only logical idea I have.

Maybe the dead oak leaves on it are trapping moisture and increasing humidity around it?  Could be a similar issue that overhead watering causes some palms.  Hope it recovers.

Jon Sunder

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I think @TonyDFW's suggestion of a mineral deficiency is a strong possibility.  My first question about the fertilization schedule was headed in that direction because it looks almost like pencil pointing.  It may not be a bad idea to attack both potential issues at once and get some really good fertilizer specially formulated for your area (containing trace elements like Manganese as well).

Since it is Texas, @TonyDFW or one of the other Texans can probably steer you toward something better formulated for your soils.  I hope your Jubaea pulls through.

 

  • Upvote 1

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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As an alternative to a fungicide try hydrogen peroxide. It can help take care of anything in the crown. Also u can add hydrogen peroxide to the water u use it irrigate ur palm. It will help strengthen the roots and kill pests and fungus in the soil. I add it to the water I use to water a my plants and I add a little to my spray bottle I use to mist my houseplants with every day

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Jubaea is very cold hardy and is often said to be more cold Hardy than butia so o don't think temperature is an issue

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  • 2 weeks later...

Folks: I've never seen Manganese deficiency in any of my palms, but my goodness, it does look like it. I went ahead and purchased some manganese spikes. I've already poured some fungicides down it's throat. I'll see how it responds this summer. If things go well, I'll just add maintenance spikes to my routine. 

The only difference between Tony and my location is that I have acid soils. By the way, I had the pleasure to meet Tony at his home 5 years ago when they hosted some palm crazies. Super folks. 

  • Upvote 1

Longview, Texas :: Record Low: -5F, Feb. 16, 2021 :: Borderline 8A/8B :: '06-'07: 18F / '07-'08: 21F / '08-'09: 21F / '09-'10: 14F / '10-'11: 15F / '11-'12: 24F / '12-'13: 23F / '13-'14: 15F / '14-'15: 20F / '15-'16: 27F / '16-'17: 15F / '17-'18: 8F / '18-'19: 23F / '19-'20: 19F / '20-'21: -5F / '21-'22: 20F / '22-'23: 6F

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@buffy Hope that it pulls through for you!  One of my favorite palms, but I don't think there is a single living adult specimen here.

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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  • 2 months later...

Look at this junk. I've given it manganese spikes and a good systemic fungicide. Guess we just have to wait.

20200410_190450.jpg

Longview, Texas :: Record Low: -5F, Feb. 16, 2021 :: Borderline 8A/8B :: '06-'07: 18F / '07-'08: 21F / '08-'09: 21F / '09-'10: 14F / '10-'11: 15F / '11-'12: 24F / '12-'13: 23F / '13-'14: 15F / '14-'15: 20F / '15-'16: 27F / '16-'17: 15F / '17-'18: 8F / '18-'19: 23F / '19-'20: 19F / '20-'21: -5F / '21-'22: 20F / '22-'23: 6F

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I would look at a boron deficiency..  

Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

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Hope still green hope, but i think boron deficiency too.

I'm growing my jubaea in acid soil but full sun in 8a as you i've no problem with the soil.

 

 

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8F is pretty cold even for a Jubaea, especially a youngster. I hope I'm wrong, but I've heard of some cases where a young palm gets irreversibly damaged by cold and will use up the energy reserves it has left in the trunk/roots until it dies, with each leaf getting smaller and smaller until it just gives up :(

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That was probably just too much cold. Maybe there was also some damage on the roots. I would give it a last chance this season with a good amount of fertilizer and enough water to push it through.

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On 4/10/2020 at 8:06 PM, buffy said:

Look at this junk. I've given it manganese spikes and a good systemic fungicide. Guess we just have to wait.

20200410_190450.jpg

Man.... that thing looks like Kuato from Total Recall . “Open your mind” 

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On 4/12/2020 at 12:16 AM, Josh76 said:

8F is pretty cold even for a Jubaea, especially a youngster. I hope I'm wrong, but I've heard of some cases where a young palm gets irreversibly damaged by cold and will use up the energy reserves it has left in the trunk/roots until it dies, with each leaf getting smaller and smaller until it just gives up :(

My potted Jubaea took an hour at 12F back in 2018 during the 'Beast From The East' when I was at the old house, which was the coldest temperature I have ever seen in my lifetime. Damage was minimal, despite the fact it was in a pot and accompanied by snow. In fact it only experienced some minor leaf burn. I know you guys in London only saw lows of 22F during that extreme polar vortex, but there's lots of other Jubaea's in other parts of England that took temperatures of 10-15F and have survived fine. I don't know of any that died. Jubaea's seem to take quite a bit of extreme cold, providing the days warm up above freezing, I guess.

Could this damage/decline be more to do with the OP's hot, humid summers? I know Jubaea's like warm, dry summers which they are used to in their native range, where there is barely any rainfall in summer. From what I hear, they hate high humidity in summer as well, like other desert/semi-arid palms. I don't know of any Jubaea's in tropical, or humid-subtropical places such as East Texas, Florida or Queensland for instance. I might be wrong though. I think 5-6 inches of rainfall each month during summer, combined with 95F temperatures and 85% humidity is going to cause problems for Jubaea's. Again, I could be wrong. Is anyone successfully growing Jubaea in tropical zones with high summer rainfall? All the decent specimens I have ever seen have been in dry summer regions, including southern England.

The other possibility is that the growing point has been damaged from flying debris, maybe during a storm or tornado? It definitely doesn't look good though, either way...

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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28 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Is anyone successfully growing Jubaea in tropical zones with high summer rainfall?

@meteorologistpalmguy has a nice one in Magnolia, TX just to the NW of Houston:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/57537-cold-hardy-palms-in-houston/&do=findComment&comment=911109

 

202004132230_MagnoliaTX.png

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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3 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

@meteorologistpalmguy has a nice one in Magnolia, TX just to the NW of Houston:

It's a nice looking Jubaea for sure, but how many summers has it done there? Was it only planted last summer? Or has it been there for say 5+ years?

I'm sure you can grow pretty decent Jubaea's in humid sub-tropical locations, but I also wouldn't rule out them declining or suffering problems due to the high humidity and rainfall during the hot summer. I think crown rot can be an issue and perhaps some specimens are just more susceptible than others in those conditions, a bit like Washingtonia Filifera or Phoenix Dactylifera.

You certainly don't hear about many Jubaea's growing outside of semi-arid, Mediterranean or temperate climates. But that's not to say it can't be done. But it might well cause problems, which I suspect could be the case with the OP's Jubaea. Assuming he doesn't have cold damage, or blunt-force trauma to the growth point.

What's his annual rainfall? Jubaea only experience 5-10 inches a year in their natural range. Excess rainfall in general, across the year, could be the issue. Especially if there is a high water table, on top of the wet, humid summers.

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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@UK_Palms

According to the poster, it was in the ground for 3 years as of Oct. 2019:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/57537-cold-hardy-palms-in-houston/&do=findComment&comment=911194

We do have a few Washingtonia filifera and there are still Phoenix dactylifera in places where Lethal Bronzing hasn't killed all of them.  I have both here.  There are some nice Washingtonia filifera at Fairchild Tropical Gardens in Miami.  I don't think either species looks as good as they do in Las Vegas or Phoenix, but Phoenix dactylifera is still an avenue or median palm throughout the zone mild 8b+ areas of the state.

I don't disagree with your assessment that Jubaea are difficult in areas like Florida as there are no recorded adult specimens in the ground.  I'd be really happy to be wrong about that.  @Eric in Orlando had one in the ground at Leu Gardens for a while, but it ultimately went to the mulch pile.  That's probably the best spot for a palm garden in Central Florida coupled with an expert grower and I still don't think it made it to reproductive size.  You can see a photo of it here not long before it bit the dust:

https://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/1770

Average rainfall can be calculated by adding up the numbers on all the green dots in the graphic above.  This location also got 30 inches of rain during Hurricane Harvey according to the poster in the first link.  I actually looked at this location specifically to compare it to various climates throughout Florida since there was a healthy specimen with these averages.  Here are the numbers in chart form with the rainfall tallied:

202004132300_MagnoliaTX_tally.png

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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It's been in the ground since 2009

Longview, Texas :: Record Low: -5F, Feb. 16, 2021 :: Borderline 8A/8B :: '06-'07: 18F / '07-'08: 21F / '08-'09: 21F / '09-'10: 14F / '10-'11: 15F / '11-'12: 24F / '12-'13: 23F / '13-'14: 15F / '14-'15: 20F / '15-'16: 27F / '16-'17: 15F / '17-'18: 8F / '18-'19: 23F / '19-'20: 19F / '20-'21: -5F / '21-'22: 20F / '22-'23: 6F

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2 hours ago, buffy said:

It's been in the ground since 2009

I was referring to @meteorologistpalmguy's palm in my post above.  Sorry for the confusion.  I hope that yours recovers. 

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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9 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

@UK_Palms

According to the poster, it was in the ground for 3 years as of Oct. 2019:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/57537-cold-hardy-palms-in-houston/&do=findComment&comment=911194

We do have a few Washingtonia filifera and there are still Phoenix dactylifera in places where Lethal Bronzing hasn't killed all of them.  I have both here.  There are some nice Washingtonia filifera at Fairchild Tropical Gardens in Miami.  I don't think either species looks as good as they do in Las Vegas or Phoenix, but Phoenix dactylifera is still an avenue or median palm throughout the zone mild 8b+ areas of the state.

I don't disagree with your assessment that Jubaea are difficult in areas like Florida as there are no recorded adult specimens in the ground.  I'd be really happy to be wrong about that.  @Eric in Orlando had one in the ground at Leu Gardens for a while, but it ultimately went to the mulch pile.  That's probably the best spot for a palm garden in Central Florida coupled with an expert grower and I still don't think it made it to reproductive size.  You can see a photo of it here not long before it bit the dust:

https://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/1770

Average rainfall can be calculated by adding up the numbers on all the green dots in the graphic above.  This location also got 30 inches of rain during Hurricane Harvey according to the poster in the first link.  I actually looked at this location specifically to compare it to various climates throughout Florida since there was a healthy specimen with these averages.  Here are the numbers in chart form with the rainfall tallied:

202004132300_MagnoliaTX_tally.png

 

 

The one at Leu was a semi mature specimen, it had about 6-7ft of clear trunk. It had been moved to Leu around 1985 (before I was here). It was growing at the estate of Mulford Foster NW of Orlando. He was the famous plant explorer/bromeliad expert and hybridizer. When I started here in 1992 it was healthy but had a big gouge in the trunk right under the crown.  It slowly started declining awhile ago and died. I have tried a couple of young 5 gal. specimens I ordered from CA but neither made it more than a year. There is a mature specimen at a house in Winter Park, maybe 25-30ft tall. The original owners supposedly broght it in from CA many years ago.

Here is the one that was at Leu when it was declining, its the only pic I could find.

337px-Jubaea_in_Orlando_Leu.jpg

 

 

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Eric

Orlando, FL

zone 9b/10a

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14 minutes ago, Eric in Orlando said:

The one at Leu was a semi mature specimen, it had about 6-7ft of clear trunk. It had been moved to Leu around 1985 (before I was here). It was growing at the estate of Mulford Foster NW of Orlando. He was the famous plant explorer/bromeliad expert and hybridizer. When I started here in 1992 it was healthy but had a big gouge in the trunk right under the crown.  It slowly started declining awhile ago and died. I have tried a couple of young 5 gal. specimens I ordered from CA but neither made it more than a year. There is a mature specimen at a house in Winter Park, maybe 25-30ft tall. The original owners supposedly broght it in from CA many years ago.

I remember this one from this thread: https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/30034-mature-jubaea-chilensis-in-orlandoflorida/

At the time, it seemed like there was some debate about whether or not it was a hybrid.  It looks the part overall.

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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Personally, I think it is a combination of the winter cold damage as well as the excess rainfall/humidity, especially during the summer. It probably took some damage initially from the 8F low but has then been unable to recover properly, and has been continuously stressed, due to the high water table and high humidity. If it took 8F in a semi-arid, Mediterranean or warm temperate climate, then it would probably recover during the warm/hot, dry summer and keep growing strong. Which has been documented. But not in a humid-subtropical climate with heavy rains in summer. Jubaea do not like hot, wet, humid summers. Whether that has anything to do with certain pathogens being able to take hold...?

Orlando probably has the advantage that there isn't any extreme cold, so while they are humid-subtropical with lots of rain in summer, there is also no extreme cold in winter. Although it seems quite a few Jubaea's have perished anyway and specimens are certainly few and far between in Florida. But I think it's the combination of extreme winter cold and hot, humid and wet summers that cause the biggest problems, like what @buffy is experiencing. So it's a double whammy. I am arguably as cold as he is here in winter, but my Jubaea grows strong during the warm, dry summer here. As do many other Jubaea's in southern England and western France. 

I would imagine that Butia, or Jubaea x Butia hybrids handle this type of humid-subtropical climate better. That one in Winter Park looks like it may be a hybrid. It has a very Jubaea looking trunk, but the fronds have a bit of a Butia look to them. That might explain why it has done so well in that wet summer climate. Actual Jubaea's don't like hot, wet, humid summers and high water tables. 

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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We're not that wet in the summer. Once you get through mid-June, the rain shuts off until mid-Sept. That's when humidities drop and the burn is on. Soil conditions are actually great. I have 18" inches of sandy loam above clay on a hill side. 

But ultimately, it doesn't look like anybody has confidence on what's going on with this thing. Sounds about like me. 

Longview, Texas :: Record Low: -5F, Feb. 16, 2021 :: Borderline 8A/8B :: '06-'07: 18F / '07-'08: 21F / '08-'09: 21F / '09-'10: 14F / '10-'11: 15F / '11-'12: 24F / '12-'13: 23F / '13-'14: 15F / '14-'15: 20F / '15-'16: 27F / '16-'17: 15F / '17-'18: 8F / '18-'19: 23F / '19-'20: 19F / '20-'21: -5F / '21-'22: 20F / '22-'23: 6F

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