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ruskinPalms
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Nothing in that area except all the coolest bestest stuff ever.  Some big lychee trees there as well.

I refer to  Tampa's mini-wang area.

Alan

Tampa, Florida

Zone - 10a

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I noticed lots of tropicals 9banyans, royal poincianas, etc. as you got closer to the base but just none on it. I figured since the base is on the tip of that peninsula that it has a very nice microclimate, just didn't see it being taken advantage of. I guess the Air Force has better things to do than plant coconuts! That drive along Bayshore is really nice.

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Eric

Orlando, FL

zone 9b/10a

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ruskinpalms

Great zone map overall. I think there is a definite lake effect microclimate though around the keystone-odessa area lakes (nw hillsborough north of citrus park) that bumps us up about 1/2 a zone. This may not be feasible given the scale to include on the map. But a borderline 9b/10a is where I would put it.

In our area, there are flowering delonix, fruiting veitchia, roystonea, dypsis, fruiting mango, and large lychee and avocado trees + others. I will try to post some pics.

NW Hillsborough County, FL (Near Tampa)

10 miles east of the Gulf of Mexico

Border of Zone 9b/10a

Lakefront Microclimate

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(tropical1 @ Jul. 06 2007,23:36)

QUOTE
ruskinpalms

Great zone map overall. I think there is a definite lake effect microclimate though around the keystone-odessa area lakes (nw hillsborough north of citrus park) that bumps us up about 1/2 a zone. This may not be feasible given the scale to include on the map. But a borderline 9b/10a is where I would put it.

In our area, there are flowering delonix, fruiting veitchia, roystonea, dypsis, fruiting mango, and large lychee and avocado trees + others. I will try to post some pics.

I really need to visit the area. Sounds like some nice stuff up there. I have no doubt that the properties immediatly on the shores of all those lakes are on the lower side of 10A and maybe even better depending on the size of the lake, but they are some pretty small lakes (only a few pixels) on the map that I have been painting so it is tough to indicate these microclimates. I could just encircle the whole lake area with lower 10A zone, but that might be overestimating a lot of that area shaded. But, I still have some fine tuning to do on this map so I take all advice seriously.

Overall, most of the Tampa area looks quite vulnerable from an arctic blast from the north. I have a feeling many places are solid 10A's until the rarer advective freezes come through. I think there were lows around 18F or 19F during the eighties in the Tampa area. These are statisically outliers well off the normal distribution of temperatures however. Problem is that our palms are long lived and are bound to get nailed at some point by an "outlier" type event. I made my map with the outliers out of mind because I feel that we should plant more based upon the averages rather than the extremes. Just plant fast, cheap zone 10+ palms and don't get carried away with rarer, slower zone 10+ palms and you will achieve a tropical nirvana easier and cheaper to repair when the unlikely, yet inevitable,  happens.  That is not to say that you should not try rarer palms at all as you may stumble upon the holy grail of central Florida palm growing: the crownshafted palm that is cold AND frost hardy. Again, if you are on the poorer side like me, just try not to get carried away with this crusade. Now, where can I find some nice Dypsis decipiens to plant in my frosty patch of land ???   :;):

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Parrish, FL

Zone 9B

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ruskinpalms -

Yes. Shading the whole area would probably overestimate it. The whole Tampa Bay area has been much warmer than it was in the recent past (as your zone map portrays), and I am always amazed when I find mature specimens that at one time were limited to favorable microclimates (St. Pete.) growing in some less favorable zone (i.e. Coconuts fruiting on North Dale Mabry). Hopefully, this climate trend continues.

I am all too familiar with the freezes, I had a large collection in the town and country area (1992-1996) less than a mile from Tampa Bay and lost 10 out of 12 newly planted  4' Wodyetias (which at the time were fairly rare and several coconut trees). All of the damage despite using diesel fired grove smudge pots! Of the coconuts we had the Jamaican Talls (seed from Fort Myers) did the best and came through.

BTW, I have dypsis decipiens and it is painfully slow, but should be worth the wait. Thanks for your work on the map.

NW Hillsborough County, FL (Near Tampa)

10 miles east of the Gulf of Mexico

Border of Zone 9b/10a

Lakefront Microclimate

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Bill,

If you include outlier events, the entire area is solidly entrenched in zone 9.  That's an easy map to make.  Pinellas County is almost as vulnerbale to arctic air unless one lives in immediate coastal areas.  By immediate, I mean literally rock throwing distance not 1 or 2 blocks.  You should have seen Sunken Gardens after the 1989 freeze.  It might as well have been Lutz.  St. Petersburg's low in 1983 was 22F when Tampa had 19F.  Noone escapes that type of event.

Ray

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Tampa, Interbay Peninsula, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10A

Bokeelia, Pine Island, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10B

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Great map!  You guys are making me homesick.  I lived in South Tampa for 12 years before moving to Costa Rica and loved the bay area!  I still think of Tampa as "home".  

I agree with the comments about areas of Carrollwood getting a lot more frost or being colder.  I had friends who lived there and their banana trees would get damaged or frozen back most winters.  Meanwhile the ones in South Tampa would still be in perfect condition.  I always used banana plants as an indicator of the climate.  They were some of the first plants to get damaged by frost or cold weather every winter.

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Formerly Jeff in Costa Rica
 

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  • 11 years later...
  • 8 months later...
On 7/4/2007 at 4:48 PM, ruskinPalms said:

Version 1.2

Changes:

1. Citrus Park leaves zone 10A - not sure how to keep it in 10A unless 10A is way underestimated in Pasco county.

2. Central and north Tampa leave 10A

3. Less 10A near Palm River area

 

Surprised no one has challenged the 10A areas in Lakeland - any thoughts?

 

ZoneMapwithLegend-1.jpg

Would you mind reposting this? You did a great job, but photobucket doesn't want to cooperate anymore.

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Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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Unfortunately, I think this work may be lost to time. I actually managed to get back into my photobucket account but could not find this picture.  Maybe I had a different account at the time that I made this post. I doubt it is on the computer I have now either as this post was done in 2007 and I had a different computer then but I’ll look the next time I actually use my desktop computer. 

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Parrish, FL

Zone 9B

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Did a google search for the file and found a somewhat less blurry cached preview image. This is about as good as it is going to get unless I somehow still have the original on my desktop computer. 

The white is 9A (20 to 25), dark blue is low 9b (25 to 27.5), light blue is high 9b (27.5 to 30), dark green is low 10a (30 to 32.5), light green is high 10a (32.5 to 35), yellow is low 10b (35 to 37.5), orange is high 10b (37.5 to 40).

 

E27F5E78-88F6-4F42-8974-9D1D55D0C70B.jpeg

Edited by ruskinPalms
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Parrish, FL

Zone 9B

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1 hour ago, ruskinPalms said:

Did a google search for the file and found a somewhat less blurry cached preview image. This is about as good as it is going to get unless I somehow still have the original on my desktop computer. 

The white is 9A (20 to 25), dark blue is low 9b (25 to 27.5), light blue is high 9b (27.5 to 30), dark green is low 10a (30 to 32.5), light green is high 10a (32.5 to 35), yellow is low 10b (35 to 37.5), orange is high 10b (37.5 to 40).

Hope you find it.  If you can't find it and you are certain that it was on there, I can probably help you hunt it down (even if it was deleted).

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone (2012): 9b | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (1985, 1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a | 30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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2 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

Did a google search for the file and found a somewhat less blurry cached preview image. This is about as good as it is going to get unless I somehow still have the original on my desktop computer. 

The white is 9A (20 to 25), dark blue is low 9b (25 to 27.5), light blue is high 9b (27.5 to 30), dark green is low 10a (30 to 32.5), light green is high 10a (32.5 to 35), yellow is low 10b (35 to 37.5), orange is high 10b (37.5 to 40).

 

E27F5E78-88F6-4F42-8974-9D1D55D0C70B.jpeg

Thanks, you really did a good job with this. What did you use to make it?

Edited by RedRabbit

Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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Since the old map has sort of been lost, I've started working on a new one:

tamp.png.ca8cb9a219e273fa25605ed4080853c8.png

Google Maps is great for this... I don't want to interfere with @ruskinPalms's map so I'll get a new thread going once mine is ready.  :)

Edited by RedRabbit
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Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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It’s been a long time but I think I took a screenshot from google maps and then either used Microsoft Paint or another free program of the era to draw on the map. I do think I actually have a usb hard drive somewhere that might have the original file on it. I’ve made a few moves since then so probably buried in an obscure box in my garage which looks like a hoarder’s paradise at this time so it may be some time before I can dig it out :laugh2:

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Parrish, FL

Zone 9B

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6 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

Looking at this map there are a few changes I’d make but not much. Still looks pretty good to me :winkie:

Your original map did a great job of capturing the area. You made it back in 2007, and I think it held up well though the tests of 2010 and 2018. :greenthumb:

I made some more progress on my map, but I'm going to struggle in areas I have less knowledge of like Seminole, Largo, Brandon, etc. 

Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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  • 1 month later...

1% RH. 

Ok. I am going to set the nozzle at "mist" and do a once over on the cocos and adonidia. It's excruciatingly dry out.

 

 

15720659496147123732460409387845.jpg

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 2.3C/36F (12/27/2015)--Lowest recent/current winter: 3C/37F (2/24/2022)

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On 7/4/2007 at 4:48 PM, ruskinPalms said:

Version 1.2

Surprised no one has challenged the 10A areas in Lakeland - any thoughts?

This is a rough approximation of what you could expect to see here.  The color coding is a little different than what is typically used to define numerical zones; including the proverbial 10a where palm gardening palettes tend to expand to a sufficient level for serious collectors.  Consider this more of a cold, lukewarm, warm, and high-end 9b map. 

The red area is where you are most likely to find successful zone-pushing landscapes.  In this region, you are very likely to run across pre-2010 Adonidia merrillii, Hyophorbe sp., Roystonea regia, Dypsis leptocheilos, Pseudophoenix sargentii, Coccothrinax crinita, Satakentia liukiuensis, Ptychosperma elegans and Archontophoenix alexandrae.  There are some folks experimenting with Coconuts in this area.

The orange area is still milder than average, but not quite as mild as the urban core.  Think more like dense suburbs or areas that are rapidly urbanizing.  You will still run across the borderline plants above, but they may take more damage in the winter or just not look quite as healthy.  The difference may be as small as a degree or a part of a degree, but it is there.  There are some pre-2018 coconuts in this area.

The yellow area is your typical 9b.  Perhaps the area is removed from the urban core or low enough in elevation that cold air collects.  Frost is more common here, so marginal plants tend not to perform as well.

The green areas are either very low 9b or 9a.  In some winters, like 2010, they are effectively 8b.  Growing marginal plants here is difficult without affording some level of protection.

201910261115_Lakeland_FL_map_Modified.png

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone (2012): 9b | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (1985, 1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a | 30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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11 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

1% RH. 

Ok. I am going to set the nozzle at "mist" and do a once over on the cocos and adonidia. It's excruciatingly dry out.

WOW! You need to spray water on them to prevent spontaneous combustion!!!!

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  • 1 month later...
On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 12:25 AM, RedRabbit said:

Your original map did a great job of capturing the area. You made it back in 2007, and I think it held up well though the tests of 2010 and 2018:greenthumb:

I made some more progress on my map, but I'm going to struggle in areas I have less knowledge of like Seminole, Largo, Brandon, etc. 

Have you made any update to your map?  I've been trying to get a feel for the area since I moved here in September.  I'm surprised at how much more "tropical" South Tampa (i.e. interbay peninsula, Davis and Harbor Islands) seem than most of Pinellas county.  I still haven't fully explored Southern Pinellas - but I was surprised at the differences in mature zone 10 palms between the two areas.

On another note - other than areas the beaches, would Albert Whitted be the warmest portion of Pinellas?

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3 hours ago, JJPalmer said:

Have you made any update to your map?  I've been trying to get a feel for the area since I moved here in September.  I'm surprised at how much more "tropical" South Tampa (i.e. interbay peninsula, Davis and Harbor Islands) seem than most of Pinellas county.  I still haven't fully explored Southern Pinellas - but I was surprised at the differences in mature zone 10 palms between the two areas.

On another note - other than areas the beaches, would Albert Whitted be the warmest portion of Pinellas?

Yes, I made some progress but just part of Hillsborough County so far. I’ll post it tonight if I have time. 
 

I think you’re right about Albert Whitted being the warmest place in Pinellas County apart from the beaches. The Venetian Isles, Tropical Shores, and Coquina Key should be the warmest neighborhoods in St. Pete.

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Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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13 hours ago, JJPalmer said:

Have you made any update to your map?  I've been trying to get a feel for the area since I moved here in September.  I'm surprised at how much more "tropical" South Tampa (i.e. interbay peninsula, Davis and Harbor Islands) seem than most of Pinellas county.  I still haven't fully explored Southern Pinellas - but I was surprised at the differences in mature zone 10 palms between the two areas.

On another note - other than areas the beaches, would Albert Whitted be the warmest portion of Pinellas?

Well, its very rough but here's what I've got so far. There's no scale yet but I think you can kind of tell from the map. The shade of yellow around Davis Islands, Beach Park, etc is the warmest and would probably be 33 or 34f.  Colors change at approximately a 1f difference with Temple Terrace the coldest spot.

zonesdraft.png.6ee8f90a2289ab7227cef66749af9a2e.png

Edited by RedRabbit
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Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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Using 1991-2019 Data here are mean minimums and corresponding hardiness zones for Atlanta, Raleigh, Greensboro, Charlotte, Richmond, Charleston, Wilmington, Hatteras, and Virginia Beach and a few select eastern NC towns.

Raleigh- 12 8A ( 1 more mild year like last think it rises to 13)

Raleigh State University Station ( UHI) -14 8A

 

Charlotte - 12 8A

 

Greensboro- 10 7B/8A ( 1 more mild year rises to 11)

 

Atlanta ( using the heavily uhi influenced airport) - 16 8B !!!!! Atlantas densest parts may very well be 8B using past 30 years

 

Fayetteville NC - 15 8A/8B

 

Richmond- 9 7B ( past couple years skewed it down, think its more 7B/8A)

 

Greenville NC- 13 8A

 

Washington NC- 15 8A/8B

 

Wilmington NC- 17 8B

 

Morehead City - 17 8B

 

Hatteras- 22 9A

 

VA Beach- 16 8B

 

Charleston - 20 8B/9A

Nashville TN- 9 7B

Let me know if you want some other locales!  Thoughts? nashville saw the biggest jump

Edited by PalmsNC
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  • 4 months later...

I seem to have been able to pull up the photobucket image conveniently after spending well over an hour trying to recreate it.  Maybe this is deserving of a new thread with comments / suggestions, but I figured I would update this thread first. 

image.thumb.png.065e1122c4272f517b96a2fa5f441fb1.png

 

Zone Map.jpg

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16 hours ago, JJPalmer said:

I seem to have been able to pull up the photobucket image conveniently after spending well over an hour trying to recreate it.  Maybe this is deserving of a new thread with comments / suggestions, but I figured I would update this thread first. 

image.thumb.png.065e1122c4272f517b96a2fa5f441fb1.png

 

Zone Map.jpg

What do the colors on the top map stand for?

Brevard County, Fl

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22 hours ago, Jimbean said:

What do the colors on the top map stand for?

Same as the lower map as defined by the key. Zones 10A through 10B - I was just trying to recreate it as the image was previously unavailable. 

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Good work @JJPalmer. I'd be interested collaborating with you in putting together a new map if you want. 

Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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The standard definition of a zone is that it categorizes the average low temperature over a period of time, typically 30 years.

One of the light yellow areas was near Macdill AFB.  Just looking at the available data (summary attached in Excel format), the base itself falls a bit short of 10B, both with and without 1989 included per the definition above.  The yellow shaded chart is the averages from 1990-2019 and the unshaded is from 1989-2018.  These numbers are from Weather Underground.  You can look at other airports by replacing the KMCF portion of the URL with whichever airport you wish:

KMCF Tampa FL MacDill Air Force Base
KTPA Tampa FL Tampa International Airport
KTPF Tampa FL Peter O Knight Airport
KVDF Tampa FL Tampa Executive Airport

 

202005180000_KMCF_Macdill.xlsx

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone (2012): 9b | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (1985, 1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a | 30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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On 5/15/2020 at 8:04 PM, JJPalmer said:

I seem to have been able to pull up the photobucket image conveniently after spending well over an hour trying to recreate it.  Maybe this is deserving of a new thread with comments / suggestions, but I figured I would update this thread first. 

image.thumb.png.065e1122c4272f517b96a2fa5f441fb1.png

 

Zone Map.jpg

Based on what grows in the area, after zig zagging in and around a few places, these are my impressions.  The red line is the 9B/10A rough boundary, and the orange is the 9B/9A boundary.  Obviously this is not complete. 

Rough Tampa zone map.png

Brevard County, Fl

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13 hours ago, Jimbean said:

I doubt any where around Tampa Bay is zone 10B, even Santa Maria Island. 

This is something I struggle with myself because statistically places like St. Pete Beach should be over the threshold for 10b. By average annual lows I don't think there's a big difference between coastal Pinellas and coastal Lee county, but obviously places like Sanibel look way more tropical. It may have to do with daytime heating or vulnerability to those once in a century type freezes.  

3 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Based on what grows in the area, after zig zagging in and around a few places, these are my impressions.  The red line is the 9B/10A rough boundary, and the orange is the 9B/9A boundary.  Obviously this is not complete. 

Rough Tampa zone map.png

Okay, you're officially dead to me for putting Westchase in 9a...  :crying: 

I actually don't think you're that far off. The USF area and Brandon kinda of do look like 9a to be honest. Points west like Town N Country, Citrus Park, Westchase, Oldsmar, are a step up from points further east. I'm not sure why this is since that part of town isn't really benefiting from Tampa Bay or the Gulf, but in any case you see a decent number or Royals west of Dale Mabry and very few east of it. 

...Just make my area 11a in your next map and we'll be cool again.  ;)

Edited by RedRabbit
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Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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I was just trying to replicate the previous map - but this brings up an important point if we try to document the climate of the area going forward.  An important clarification to make is how zones are being defined.  If you are going by the "what is growing in this region" definition, I think @Jimbean your map fits for Pinellas county quite well, but Davis and Harbor Islands, as well as most of South Tampa, have plenty of zone 10 flora.  I honestly think the Islands in Tampa are more tropical looking that Clearwater Beach, but the climate is obviously more fare on the beach.  

The way I understood the official climate zone definition to work was the average annual minimum temperature (not just the average lows for a winter) over a span of 10 years.  That is, taking the average of the lowest temperature recorded during each winter over the course of 10 years, which is different than your definition, @kinzyjr .  Over the last 10 years, I have a very hard time believing that Terra Verde, St. Pete Beach, or even Downtown St. Pete have had an annual minimum temperature of less than 35.0 degrees. 

I'll try to pull some climate data through 2010 over the local reporting stations to see if I can't see what the 'official' zones would be. 

Edited by JJPalmer
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17 minutes ago, JJPalmer said:

I was just trying to replicate the previous map - but this brings up an important point if we try to document the climate of the area going forward.  An important clarification to make is how zones are being defined.  If you are going by the "what is growing in this region" definition, I think @Jimbean your map fits for Pinellas county quite well, but Davis and Harbor Islands, as well as most of South Tampa, have plenty of zone 10 flora.  I honestly think the Islands in Tampa are more tropical looking that Clearwater Beach, but the climate is obviously more fare on the beach.  

The way I understood the official climate zone definition to work was the average annual minimum temperature (not just the average lows for a winter) over a span of 10 years.  That is, taking the average of the lowest temperature recorded during each winter over the course of 10 years, which is different than your definition, @kinzyjr .  Over the last 10 years, I have a very hard time believing that Terra Verde, St. Pete Beach, or even Downtown St. Pete have had an annual minimum temperature of less than 35.0 degrees. 

I'll try to pull some climate data through 2010 over the local reporting stations to see if I can't see what the 'official' zones would be. 

I wrote a post on this before.  Basically I came to the conclusion that you can define a zone in one of two ways: either by what grows there long term, or use the official definition of the USDA of average annual minimums for the last 30 years.   

If you were to do it by what grows in any location, in my experience, you have to adjust the isotherms to equal out to about 33F for zone 10A, 28F for 9B, etc. for the past 30 years.  I know that here in Brevard, the "10A areas" average 33F - 36F from 1990 onward, and there are many areas that  average 30F to 32F that are really just warm 9B based on what grows there pre-1989; Melbourne and Merritt Island are perfect examples of this.

Edited by Jimbean
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Brevard County, Fl

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2 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

That is, taking the average of the lowest temperature recorded during each winter over the course of 10 years, which is different than your definition, @kinzyjr . 

Just to be clear, this is not my definition.  As stated by @Jimbean, the definition I used is from the USDA.  The numbers derived were the annual lows as best I could extrapolate with all of the missing data (areas where the low was "0" mean there was no official reading).  I imagine that Tampa International has more complete data.

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone (2012): 9b | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (1985, 1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a | 30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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2 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Just to be clear, this is not my definition.  As stated by @Jimbean, the definition I used is from the USDA.  The numbers derived were the annual lows as best I could extrapolate with all of the missing data (areas where the low was "0" mean there was no official reading).  I imagine that Tampa International has more complete data.

Sorry - I misread the USDA website, although I saw that the 1990 map used 12 years.  Thanks for correcting. I'll see what I can find.

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4 hours ago, Jimbean said:

I wrote a post on this before.  Basically I came to the conclusion that you can define a zone in one of two ways: either by what grows there long term, or use the official definition of the USDA of average annual minimums for the last 30 years.   

If you were to do it by what grows in any location, in my experience, you have to adjust the isotherms to equal out to about 33F for zone 10A, 28F for 9B, etc. for the past 30 years.  I know that here in Brevard, the "10A areas" average 33F - 36F from 1990 onward, and there are many areas that  average 30F to 32F that are really just warm 9B based on what grows there pre-1989; Melbourne and Merritt Island are perfect examples of this.

That makes sense to me. Here's roughly how I think it would look it you revise up the zones:

  • 9B: 28-33f, Orange
  • 10a: 33-38f, Red
  • 10b: >38f, Pink

tbz.png.e4cbd6de5a7409eb91b61ac99b8bd84a.png

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Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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Interesting.  You think the isotherm map would look like that averaging since 1990?  I'd like to see some data, along with evidence to fill the gaps.

Good maps take patience and detail to make.  I'd like to see it a good zone map of the Tampa area, I've always wondered how it compared to east central Florida.  

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Brevard County, Fl

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I don't know if this will help as a quick reference or not, but here is a map of the Tampa region with the locations and abbreviations for the airports in the area.  Not 100% sure how much data you might be able to get for each of them from WeatherUnderground, NOAA, etc., but it's a good start.

202005192100_TampaBayAirStations.png

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone (2012): 9b | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (1985, 1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a | 30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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