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4 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Nice work on the pictures and videos.  Excellent documentation.

For documentation of the more favorable inland climates here in Polk, I'll just use the posts on the Remarkable Palms of Tampa Bay thread. 

In this regard, the area meets one of @RedRabbit's four metrics (to my knowledge):

pre-2010 royals, pre-2010 coconuts, pre-1980s royals, and pre-1980s coconuts.

I have not seen any coconuts that survived 2010 here.  The palms I thought had a shot were in the Edgewater Beach area (not the city, the neighborhood here in Lakeland).  They were starting to trunk at the time.  They either didn't make it due to the freeze or were cut down because they looked awful.  I'm not aware of anymore that were older and large enough to have a shot of survival.  There are currently some trunking coconuts just south of this area on Main St.

202108292100_Edgewater_LakeParker.jpg

We do, however, have  pre-2010 Adonidia merrillii and Hyophorbe lagenicaulis if that means anything.

Pre-2010 royals seem consistent with a warm 9b. 
 

I’m not sure what to make of pre-2010 adonidia. People say they have the same cold tolerance as coconuts, but I think they’re really hardier. There are sheltered adonidia in Carrollwood and a few exposed ones in this area that survived 2010. By comparison, there aren’t any older coconuts this far north even directly on Tampa Bay.

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13 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Pre-2010 royals seem consistent with a warm 9b. 
 

I’m not sure what to make of pre-2010 adonidia. People say they have the same cold tolerance as coconuts, but I think they’re really hardier. There are sheltered adonidia in Carrollwood and a few exposed ones in this area that survived 2010. By comparison, there aren’t any older coconuts this far north even directly on Tampa Bay.

I'd have to agree.  Here and Lake Wales have a lot of Adonidia that have survived a long time, but I don't see a lot of older coconuts.  One thing I wish I could have done was found this property before Jan. 2010 and tested a full-grown coconut here or up further on the hill near that Bottle Palm that survived.  We'll know how non-epiphtyic Ficus aurea does here momentarily ;)

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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  • 1 month later...

I would love to see one of Myrtle Beach on here, that would be quite intriguing. Maybe I'll have to make one myself...

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41 minutes ago, General Sylvester D. Palm said:

I would love to see one of Myrtle Beach on here, that would be quite intriguing. Maybe I'll have to make one myself...

They are time consuming to make. 

I am working on a project for east central Florida.  So far I have spent all that time just in Brevard county.  This project includes:

1.) Observational data

2.) Historical data

3.) Heat island projection

4.) Drawing up comparisons, using my format, USDA format, and Koppen format, across the state. 

 

If you are bothered enough and have the spare time, I'm sure people will want to see a detailed map of South Carolina. 

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Brevard County, Fl

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1 hour ago, General Sylvester D. Palm said:

I would love to see one of Myrtle Beach on here, that would be quite intriguing. Maybe I'll have to make one myself...

I'll save you at least some time.  I've attached a Zip file with the weather records for the four NOAA stations in the Myrtle Beach area to this post.  I'd have posted it in XLSX, but it is over the 8MB limit in that format.  I took the liberty of hiding all of the fields other than the station information and the precip, max, min.

202111221345_MyrtleBeachSC.zip

  • Upvote 2

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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@General Sylvester D. Palm You may also find these sheets useful.  If you need a bit of help creating a Google Map with the data, let me know and I'll help you out.  From the composite stations sheets (1 is Myrtle Beach dominant vs. 2 being North Myrtle Beach dominant), the 30-year average is ~19.5F - very high end 8b - or with rounding a low end 9a ;)

 

USC00386153_MB_COMPOSITE_1.xlsx USC00386153_MyrtleBeach.xlsx USC00386163_MyrtleBeach_2.xlsx USW00013717_MyrtleBeach_AFB.xlsx USW00093718_MB_COMPOSITE_2.xlsx USW00093718_NorthMyrtleBeach.xlsx

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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10 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

@General Sylvester D. Palm You may also find these sheets useful.  If you need a bit of help creating a Google Map with the data, let me know and I'll help you out.  From the composite stations sheets (1 is Myrtle Beach dominant vs. 2 being North Myrtle Beach dominant), the 30-year average is ~19.5F - very high end 8b - or with rounding a low end 9a ;)

 

USC00386153_MB_COMPOSITE_1.xlsx 10.72 kB · 0 downloads USC00386153_MyrtleBeach.xlsx 10.03 kB · 0 downloads USC00386163_MyrtleBeach_2.xlsx 9.65 kB · 0 downloads USW00013717_MyrtleBeach_AFB.xlsx 9.65 kB · 0 downloads USW00093718_MB_COMPOSITE_2.xlsx 10.73 kB · 0 downloads USW00093718_NorthMyrtleBeach.xlsx 10.06 kB · 0 downloads

Thank you so much! For some reason it isn't letting me open them and is putting them as an Internet Explorer file. I'll try to figure out how to open them.

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On 11/23/2021 at 12:18 AM, kinzyjr said:

@General Sylvester D. Palm You may also find these sheets useful.  If you need a bit of help creating a Google Map with the data, let me know and I'll help you out.  From the composite stations sheets (1 is Myrtle Beach dominant vs. 2 being North Myrtle Beach dominant), the 30-year average is ~19.5F - very high end 8b - or with rounding a low end 9a ;)

 

USC00386153_MB_COMPOSITE_1.xlsx 10.72 kB · 1 download USC00386153_MyrtleBeach.xlsx 10.03 kB · 0 downloads USC00386163_MyrtleBeach_2.xlsx 9.65 kB · 0 downloads USW00013717_MyrtleBeach_AFB.xlsx 9.65 kB · 0 downloads USW00093718_MB_COMPOSITE_2.xlsx 10.73 kB · 0 downloads USW00093718_NorthMyrtleBeach.xlsx 10.06 kB · 0 downloads

I forgot to ask you, how did you get that info? I have a bunch of different places in mind that I would like to see what the EXACT average lowest temp is. I know you were talking about the NOAA but I just can't seem to find anything about the NOAA and Myrtle.

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1 hour ago, General Sylvester D. Palm said:

I forgot to ask you, how did you get that info? I have a bunch of different places in mind that I would like to see what the EXACT average lowest temp is. I know you were talking about the NOAA but I just can't seem to find anything about the NOAA and Myrtle.

Here is the link to the search tool: https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/search

This link will take you to the state of South Carolina stations: https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datasets/GHCND/locations/FIPS:45/detail

If you go to the second link, the stations have decimal numbers in them (Example in red) then they typically just collect rainfall and non-temperature data.  If they don't have decimal numbers in them (Example in green), then that station potentially has temperature data.  I believe there are scripts out on the internet in various languages to automate the downloads if you create a stations list, but if you only want a few, that might be overkill.

202111272030_SC_NOAA_Stations.jpg

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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15 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Here is the link to the search tool: https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/search

This link will take you to the state of South Carolina stations: https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datasets/GHCND/locations/FIPS:45/detail

If you go to the second link, the stations have decimal numbers in them (Example in red) then they typically just collect rainfall and non-temperature data.  If they don't have decimal numbers in them (Example in green), then that station potentially has temperature data.  I believe there are scripts out on the internet in various languages to automate the downloads if you create a stations list, but if you only want a few, that might be overkill.

202111272030_SC_NOAA_Stations.jpg

Thank you!

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/14/2021 at 4:56 PM, kinzyjr said:

Made this one using composite stations and a more refined zoning scheme:

202008261535_All_Of_Florida_3600_NewZones_Final.png

Made my first trip down to Fort Myers this weekend. Why do you suppose there is such a significant difference in plantings along McGregor vs DTSP?  Is S. Pinellas more prone to extreme cold events (higher average but larger standard deviations; 1989), is it because of palm availability, or something else? Was thoroughly impressed with the plantings down there vs what’s around St. Pete.

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27 minutes ago, JJPalmer said:

Made my first trip down to Fort Myers this weekend. Why do you suppose there is such a significant difference in plantings along McGregor vs DTSP?  Is S. Pinellas more prone to extreme cold events (higher average but larger standard deviations; 1989), is it because of palm availability, or something else? Was thoroughly impressed with the plantings down there vs what’s around St. Pete.

I've lived right along the McGregor corridor for a few years now, so I don't have long term personal experience, but I believe the river provides a great microclimate that has proven itself over the last 100+ years. It is a small area that is not properly reflected even on maps as detailed as the one above (just paint a very narrow strip of that 10-b blue from Sanibel hugging the south side of the river up to the Fort Myers dot). Very tall and obviously quite old Cocos, Latania, and Adonidia can be found around many of the older houses. Of course the centerpiece is the Edison estate, with some 100 year old Ficus and royals still around that were supposedly planted by Edison himself.  I do think the Edison estate has surely had a big influence on the diversity of plants in the neighborhood over the years. I'm not sure how it operated years ago, but today it has one of the best nursery shops of any botanical garden I've been to as well as the excellent fall and spring plant sales where I've been able to add to my collection from vendors like Jeff Searle. Palms in general are also embraced by the city in the landscaping, after the example set by the royals planted along McGregor, which is nice because I know some towns in FL and CA don't plant many palms even if the climate allows. I've been tempted to start a "Remarkable Palms of Fort Myers" thread at some point, because we have some hidden gems in my opinion!

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12 hours ago, JJPalmer said:

Made my first trip down to Fort Myers this weekend. Why do you suppose there is such a significant difference in plantings along McGregor vs DTSP?  Is S. Pinellas more prone to extreme cold events (higher average but larger standard deviations; 1989), is it because of palm availability, or something else? Was thoroughly impressed with the plantings down there vs what’s around St. Pete.

There could be a lot of reasons for this.  Page Field is fairly close to MacGregor Ave.  Here some of the relevant statistics: 

202112122210_KFMY.jpg

202112122210_KSPG.jpg

My opinion of the stats:

The 30-year average annual lows are relatively close for both locations, and the number of days with lows below 35F and 40F are nearly the same.  One important difference is how much milder KFMY is on average from October through March.  Those extra degrees allow for a lot more growth for heat-loving tropicals. 

The record low of 22F at KSPG vs. 24F at KFMY is another difference.  While 22F happened way back in the December 1962 Freeze, it illustrates the small but important difference those extra degrees of latitude make during extreme events.  For another major difference that I'm not 100% certain is accurate, look at 1998.  A 16 degree difference for that year.  The lows in the NOAA data have St. Pete going below 30F three times while it didn't happen in Ft. Myers during the last 30 years.  KRSW went below 30F in 2001, but it is further inland.

St. Petersburg is a good place to grow some really nice palms.  Kopsick and Sunken Gardens prove that.  Ft. Myers can grow them on a more long-term basis and they'll tend to grow a little faster due to the extra heat.

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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18 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

There could be a lot of reasons for this.  Page Field is fairly close to MacGregor Ave.  Here some of the relevant statistics: 

202112122210_KFMY.jpg

202112122210_KSPG.jpg

My opinion of the stats:

The 30-year average annual lows are relatively close for both locations, and the number of days with lows below 35F and 40F are nearly the same.  One important difference is how much milder KFMY is on average from October through March.  Those extra degrees allow for a lot more growth for heat-loving tropicals. 

The record low of 22F at KSPG vs. 24F at KFMY is another difference.  While 22F happened way back in the December 1962 Freeze, it illustrates the small but important difference those extra degrees of latitude make during extreme events.  For another major difference that I'm not 100% certain is accurate, look at 1998.  A 16 degree difference for that year.  The lows in the NOAA data have St. Pete going below 30F three times while it didn't happen in Ft. Myers during the last 30 years.  KRSW went below 30F in 2001, but it is further inland.

St. Petersburg is a good place to grow some really nice palms.  Kopsick and Sunken Gardens prove that.  Ft. Myers can grow them on a more long-term basis and they'll tend to grow a little faster due to the extra heat.

Good analysis. I would only add that even though Page Field is fairly close to McGregor, it's not right on the water the way that KSPG is. If the weather station in Fort Myers was at Edison you might see an additional degree or two of difference during the extreme events, and even warmer average lows. As you said the tiny differences add up in the long run. 

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14 minutes ago, aabell said:

Good analysis. I would only add that even though Page Field is fairly close to McGregor, it's not right on the water the way that KSPG is. If the weather station in Fort Myers was at Edison you might see an additional degree or two of difference during the extreme events, and even warmer average lows. As you said the tiny differences add up in the long run. 

We can actually compare that as Edison Ford has a weather station right on the water that is searchable on Weather Underground.  They are relatively close other than the 46.X degree day mentioned in the Why am I 10a thread:

Sample Link: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KFLFORTM128/graph/2018-01-12/2018-01-12/monthly

202112122210_EDISON_FORD_MCGREGOR_BLVD_RECORDS.jpg

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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59th anniversary of the great freeze of 1962. Pretty ‘cool’ graphics showing the lowest recorded temps during the period. Pahokee stands out.

91BF4A90-EB44-4C07-98F5-187A270F0140.jpeg

719EE2B4-CB2F-4E20-873A-CF3BAD6B04B1.png

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40 minutes ago, JJPalmer said:

59th anniversary of the great freeze of 1962. Pretty ‘cool’ graphics showing the lowest recorded temps during the period. Pahokee stands out.

What always stuck out to me about this freeze is that Hillborough and Pinellas got decked as hard or harder than Polk County.  Very unusual.

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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  • 2 months later...

Ran across something today that I thought was odd.  Last year, I downloaded the NOAA data for the Hastings station (USC00083874) for the year of 2020 (01/01/2020-12/31/2020) to update the weather records I keep locally.  As evidence, I've attached the file I downloaded in April of last year. 

Since the weather records for 2021 should be complete at this point, I searched for this station today to get updated data for 2021 and it shows that the end of the weather records is 12/31/2017?

image.png.d751a378679e6b93aa9d2020c6acbdeb.png

Anyone have any insights as to why they might have removed 3 years worth the records?

USC00083874_Hastings4.csv

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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On 12/13/2021 at 8:28 PM, kinzyjr said:

What always stuck out to me about this freeze is that Hillborough and Pinellas got decked as hard or harder than Polk County.  Very unusual.

It shows Venice at 20f, but their all time low is 22f. :huh:

I’m not sure if there are accuracy issues or if that reading was taken from a farm further inland… Its an interesting map regardless!

.

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4 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

It shows Venice at 20f, but their all time low is 22f. :huh:

I’m not sure if there are accuracy issues or if that reading was taken from a farm further inland… Its an interesting map regardless!

The map must not accurately reflect the station data in some cases.  The Venice station (USC00089176) recorded 22F for a low on 12/13/1962 according to the records.

image.thumb.png.823020a2e96d4f975fe549a739a9dd1a.png

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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  • 3 months later...

With a more average winter in the books and some new stations added in to the calculations, the zone map for Florida would change slightly.  The attached image is based off of the Google Map 2022_CompositeStationZones and is based off 50-year averages so it would include the 1980s.

FloridaZoneMap_2022.thumb.jpg.b398f2275e4211f6332d795496bc7e35.jpg

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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Nice work but I’d feel more comfortable if the data showed me in a nice 10 a-b instead of 10 a-1. On the other hand its always best to be thankful for what you have :-)

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2 hours ago, D. Morrowii said:

Nice work but I’d feel more comfortable if the data showed me in a nice 10 a-b instead of 10 a-1. On the other hand its always best to be thankful for what you have :-)

Thank you.  Over the last 30 years, the Merritt Island stations are 10a-2.  That's almost where you wanted to be. :) If I were to find a few $100 bills in the mailbox, that might also help. :innocent:

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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That couple of degrees alone may have just saved 8 palms! So the best I can do is $8.00 and a coupon for 20% off your next order ag Dominos…

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5 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

With a more average winter in the books and some new stations added in to the calculations, the zone map for Florida would change slightly.  The attached image is based off of the Google Map 2022_CompositeStationZones and is based off 50-year averages so it would include the 1980s.

FloridaZoneMap_2022.thumb.jpg.b398f2275e4211f6332d795496bc7e35.jpg

Im right on the line of 8b-2 and 9a-1. Seriously, just 6 houses down from me is 9a-1 lol

Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 1 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 4 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 2 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 9 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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5 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

With a more average winter in the books and some new stations added in to the calculations, the zone map for Florida would change slightly.  The attached image is based off of the Google Map 2022_CompositeStationZones and is based off 50-year averages so it would include the 1980s.

FloridaZoneMap_2022.thumb.jpg.b398f2275e4211f6332d795496bc7e35.jpg

I know you worked hard on that map, but honestly I don't think it makes a lot of sense.

Brevard County, Fl

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5 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

With a more average winter in the books and some new stations added in to the calculations, the zone map for Florida would change slightly.  The attached image is based off of the Google Map 2022_CompositeStationZones and is based off 50-year averages so it would include the 1980s.

FloridaZoneMap_2022.thumb.jpg.b398f2275e4211f6332d795496bc7e35.jpg

How did you draw this map?

.

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23 hours ago, JLM said:

Im right on the line of 8b-2 and 9a-1. Seriously, just 6 houses down from me is 9a-1 lol

Let's see if you can beat @D. Morrowii's offer of $8 and 20% off a pizza :winkie:  Check your location on the 30-year and 100-year layers that were just added.  Maybe one of those moved you in the "right" direction?

23 hours ago, Jimbean said:

I know you worked hard on that map, but honestly I don't think it makes a lot of sense.

There are parts of it I'm not happy about either.  Usually the 50-year isn't too hot or too cold, but this time it came out kind of upside down.  In particular, the Tallahassee area was pretty bad as was the east coast where you're located.  One thing to note is that the more years that are used, the more "zone flattening" happens.  Not saying you'll fall in love with the 30-year or 100-year layers that were added, but I think both of those are a lot closer than the 50-year.  Then again, on the 30-year map, Captiva is a bit too low.  It will be interesting to compare them to the straight NOAA zones to see if using composite stations makes things better or worse.  Because a lot of the NOAA stations only have a few years of data, they are essentially invalid to use as a guide for drawing the zone lines.  That leaves a lot more to the individual to guess-timate where the line should be drawn.

23 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

How did you draw this map?

I use a combination of GIMP and MS Paint and follow this general procedure:

  • Open a spreadsheet where I have the hex color values and opacity settings for the various zone colors.
    • Helps me ensure consistency in the colors/opacity.
  • Open the "blank" map in GIMP and immediately save it with a different file name.
  • Begin by adding a transparent layer to the image in GIMP.
  • Set the pencil drawing tool to a width of 3.
  • Set the color of the first zone I plan on drawing along with the opacity. 
    • There are other options to ensure the pencil doesn't fade (hardness + fade length).  Full list in the image.
    • NOTE: The same color with different opacity can look very different.  Opacity above 50 is difficult to see through to the underlying map.
    • To draw a zone, just used the pencil to create the boundary for the zone and then bucket fill the zone.
    • Be sure to set the opacity and other settings on the bucket fill or it won't match your outline.
  • Add the "urban heat islands" shown on the Google map first.
  • Begin adding other slim/long zones like the Keys or Panhandle barrier islands.
  • Add zones that border Alabama/Georgia
  • Add the big, bulky zones.
  • After the zones are complete, flatten the image (merge the layers together.
  • Export your finished map in whatever file type you wish.  I typically use JPG or PNG.
    • You can also do exports on a periodic basis so if you screw something up that can't be undone correctly, you have something to go back to rather than just a blank.
  • Open the map in Paint.  Add the zone descriptions.  This is easier for me in Paint than GIMP, but you could use GIMP to do it.
  • Open one more time in GIMP.  Add the legend for the zones.  Save/Export.
  • Post the map.

202207072100_GimpToolOptions.jpg

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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42 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Let's see if you can beat @D. Morrowii's offer of $8 and 20% off a pizza :winkie:  Check your location on the 30-year and 100-year layers that were just added.  Maybe one of those moved you in the "right" direction?

There are parts of it I'm not happy about either.  Usually the 50-year isn't too hot or too cold, but this time it came out kind of upside down.  In particular, the Tallahassee area was pretty bad as was the east coast where you're located.  One thing to note is that the more years that are used, the more "zone flattening" happens.  Not saying you'll fall in love with the 30-year or 100-year layers that were added, but I think both of those are a lot closer than the 50-year.  Then again, on the 30-year map, Captiva is a bit too low.  It will be interesting to compare them to the straight NOAA zones to see if using composite stations makes things better or worse.  Because a lot of the NOAA stations only have a few years of data, they are essentially invalid to use as a guide for drawing the zone lines.  That leaves a lot more to the individual to guess-timate where the line should be drawn.

I use a combination of GIMP and MS Paint and follow this general procedure:

  • Open a spreadsheet where I have the hex color values and opacity settings for the various zone colors.
    • Helps me ensure consistency in the colors/opacity.
  • Open the "blank" map in GIMP and immediately save it with a different file name.
  • Begin by adding a transparent layer to the image in GIMP.
  • Set the pencil drawing tool to a width of 3.
  • Set the color of the first zone I plan on drawing along with the opacity. 
    • There are other options to ensure the pencil doesn't fade (hardness + fade length).  Full list in the image.
    • NOTE: The same color with different opacity can look very different.  Opacity above 50 is difficult to see through to the underlying map.
    • To draw a zone, just used the pencil to create the boundary for the zone and then bucket fill the zone.
    • Be sure to set the opacity and other settings on the bucket fill or it won't match your outline.
  • Add the "urban heat islands" shown on the Google map first.
  • Begin adding other slim/long zones like the Keys or Panhandle barrier islands.
  • Add zones that border Alabama/Georgia
  • Add the big, bulky zones.
  • After the zones are complete, flatten the image (merge the layers together.
  • Export your finished map in whatever file type you wish.  I typically use JPG or PNG.
    • You can also do exports on a periodic basis so if you screw something up that can't be undone correctly, you have something to go back to rather than just a blank.
  • Open the map in Paint.  Add the zone descriptions.  This is easier for me in Paint than GIMP, but you could use GIMP to do it.
  • Open one more time in GIMP.  Add the legend for the zones.  Save/Export.
  • Post the map.

202207072100_GimpToolOptions.jpg

The 50 year zones seem pretty good for the Pensacola area. The 30 year zone does not represent 9a-1 very well. The northern half of Escambia County is definitely 8b-2, and i could definitely see the immediate coast and the Gulf Breeze area being 9a-b. So yea, overall the 50 year zones came out pretty well for this area.

  • Like 1

Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 1 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 4 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 2 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 9 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

Let's see if you can beat @D. Morrowii's offer of $8 and 20% off a pizza :winkie:  Check your location on the 30-year and 100-year layers that were just added.  Maybe one of those moved you in the "right" direction?

There are parts of it I'm not happy about either.  Usually the 50-year isn't too hot or too cold, but this time it came out kind of upside down.  In particular, the Tallahassee area was pretty bad as was the east coast where you're located.  One thing to note is that the more years that are used, the more "zone flattening" happens.  Not saying you'll fall in love with the 30-year or 100-year layers that were added, but I think both of those are a lot closer than the 50-year.  Then again, on the 30-year map, Captiva is a bit too low.  It will be interesting to compare them to the straight NOAA zones to see if using composite stations makes things better or worse.  Because a lot of the NOAA stations only have a few years of data, they are essentially invalid to use as a guide for drawing the zone lines.  That leaves a lot more to the individual to guess-timate where the line should be drawn.

I use a combination of GIMP and MS Paint and follow this general procedure:

  • Open a spreadsheet where I have the hex color values and opacity settings for the various zone colors.
    • Helps me ensure consistency in the colors/opacity.
  • Open the "blank" map in GIMP and immediately save it with a different file name.
  • Begin by adding a transparent layer to the image in GIMP.
  • Set the pencil drawing tool to a width of 3.
  • Set the color of the first zone I plan on drawing along with the opacity. 
    • There are other options to ensure the pencil doesn't fade (hardness + fade length).  Full list in the image.
    • NOTE: The same color with different opacity can look very different.  Opacity above 50 is difficult to see through to the underlying map.
    • To draw a zone, just used the pencil to create the boundary for the zone and then bucket fill the zone.
    • Be sure to set the opacity and other settings on the bucket fill or it won't match your outline.
  • Add the "urban heat islands" shown on the Google map first.
  • Begin adding other slim/long zones like the Keys or Panhandle barrier islands.
  • Add zones that border Alabama/Georgia
  • Add the big, bulky zones.
  • After the zones are complete, flatten the image (merge the layers together.
  • Export your finished map in whatever file type you wish.  I typically use JPG or PNG.
    • You can also do exports on a periodic basis so if you screw something up that can't be undone correctly, you have something to go back to rather than just a blank.
  • Open the map in Paint.  Add the zone descriptions.  This is easier for me in Paint than GIMP, but you could use GIMP to do it.
  • Open one more time in GIMP.  Add the legend for the zones.  Save/Export.
  • Post the map.

202207072100_GimpToolOptions.jpg

 What did the avg for Patrick AFB come out to? I’m having a hard time seeing how it’s in the same zone as Orlando, and Tampa (Carrollwood). I see Clearwater Beach is in there too though which should be about the same… Naples looks a bit off too to be honest.

I like what you’re doing, and I think it looks good, but we might need to make some manual adjustments where the data seems to be leading us to questionable results. You know Florida well, I’d encourage you to weigh your own discretion heavier!

Edited by RedRabbit
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29 minutes ago, JLM said:

The 50 year zones seem pretty good for the Pensacola area. The 30 year zone does not represent 9a-1 very well. The northern half of Escambia County is definitely 8b-2, and i could definitely see the immediate coast and the Gulf Breeze area being 9a-b. So yea, overall the 50 year zones came out pretty well for this area.

Thank you for the feedback!

30 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

 What did the avg for Patrick AFB come out to? I’m having a hard time seeing how it’s in the same zone as Orlando, and Tampa (Carrollwood). I see Clearwater Beach is in there too though which should be about the same… Naples looks a bit off too to be honest.

I like what you’re doing, and I think it looks good, but we might need to make some manual adjustments where the data seems to be leading us to questionable results. You know Florida well, I’d encourage you to weigh your own discretion heavier!

Patrick AFB (PATRICK_01) came out at 32.7 (33F), 30.6 (31F), and 31.0 (31F) over 30, 50, and 100 years respectively.  The numbers used were from the StationStatistics_COMP sheet in the 2022_FloridaWeatherAlmanac.xlsx sheet: https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/66320-florida-freeze-and-weather-station-data/&do=findComment&comment=1064607

In order to make the cutoffs a little more defined, I applied the ROUND() function in Excel and recalculated the zones using the Excel formula below (changes to the cell number):

=IF(AND(G2>=10,G2<12),"08a-1",
IF(AND(G2>=12,G2<14),"08a-2",
IF(AND(G2>=14,G2<16),"08a-b",
IF(AND(G2>=16,G2<18),"08b-1",
IF(AND(G2>=18,G2<20),"08b-2",
IF(AND(G2>=20,G2<22),"09a-1",
IF(AND(G2>=22,G2<24),"09a-2",
IF(AND(G2>=24,G2<26),"09a-b",
IF(AND(G2>=26,G2<28),"09b-1",
IF(AND(G2>=28,G2<30),"09b-2",
IF(AND(G2>=30,G2<32),"10a-1",
IF(AND(G2>=32,G2<34),"10a-2",
IF(AND(G2>=34,G2<36),"10a-b",
IF(AND(G2>=36,G2<38),"10b-1",
IF(AND(G2>=38,G2<40),"10b-2",
IF(AND(G2>=40,G2<42),"11a-1",
IF(AND(G2>=42,G2<44),"11a-2",
IF(AND(G2>=44,G2<46),"11a-b",
IF(AND(G2>=46,G2<48),"11b-1",
IF(AND(G2>=48,G2<50),"11b-2",
IF(AND(G2>=50,G2<52),"12a-1",
IF(AND(G2>=52,G2<54),"12a-2"
IF(AND(G2>=54,G2<56),"12a-b"
))))))))))))))))))))))

There weren't many changes overall.

I'll upload the straight NOAA stations shortly, but when I draw the lines, I'll weigh the stations with the most complete and consistent data much heavier.  For example, if one station has 120 years of 98% complete data and scores a 9b-1 and another station close by has 10 years of data and scores a 10a-2, I'll be mindful to go with the 9b-1.  It may even be worth deleting the nodes with less than 10 full years of data.

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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23 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Thank you for the feedback!

Patrick AFB (PATRICK_01) came out at 32.7 (33F), 30.6 (31F), and 31.0 (31F) over 30, 50, and 100 years respectively.  The numbers used were from the StationStatistics_COMP sheet in the 2022_FloridaWeatherAlmanac.xlsx sheet: https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/66320-florida-freeze-and-weather-station-data/&do=findComment&comment=1064607

No way!

I'll have to look at it myself but I'm sure that Patrick AFB averages a lot higher than 32.7.

Brevard County, Fl

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10 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

No way!

I'll have to look at it myself but I'm sure that Patrick AFB averages a lot higher than 32.7.

The individual station (USW00012867) has 21 years of data (01/25/1950-12/31/1970).  Part of the issue is that the 21 row years contained three very nasty freezes (1957/1958/1962) without a lot of more modern data to offset the lower numbers.  The numbers as they stand are 33.857 (34F).  Since there are fewer than 30 years of data, this average annual low applies to all date ranges.

The composite station I created so I could compare the results to the standard station came out roughly 1F lower.  All data for the NOAA Stations and the composites I created is contained in the spreadsheet so it can be independently verified.

For anyone that wants to eavesdrop on the NOAA station work: https://tinyurl.com/48pvem3y

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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I realize this is a bit of a curveball, but does anyone have similar zone/microclimate info for the Phoenix Metro area? I just moved to the area last year and it appears to be very difficult for the temps to drop below 30F in many areas. The lowest temp I recorded this past winter was 33 but that's just one year.

I realize there are other pitfalls such as a lack of humidity/moisture and intense heat but many areas appear to be solid Zone 10a.

Any thoughts and feedback would be appreciated.

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6 hours ago, 80s Kid said:

I realize this is a bit of a curveball, but does anyone have similar zone/microclimate info for the Phoenix Metro area? I just moved to the area last year and it appears to be very difficult for the temps to drop below 30F in many areas. The lowest temp I recorded this past winter was 33 but that's just one year.

I realize there are other pitfalls such as a lack of humidity/moisture and intense heat but many areas appear to be solid Zone 10a.

Any thoughts and feedback would be appreciated.

Everyone has an interpretation of hardiness zones based on location and what data they decide to use.  Technically the Phoenix heat island is zone 10A according to the latest map.  However I think from a more conservative standpoint this is a bit dubious since temperatures can get in the low 20's.  It is a rough equivalent to Brownsville Tx, Sarasota Fl, and Melbourne Fl.

Brevard County, Fl

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7 hours ago, 80s Kid said:

I realize this is a bit of a curveball, but does anyone have similar zone/microclimate info for the Phoenix Metro area? I just moved to the area last year and it appears to be very difficult for the temps to drop below 30F in many areas. The lowest temp I recorded this past winter was 33 but that's just one year.

I realize there are other pitfalls such as a lack of humidity/moisture and intense heat but many areas appear to be solid Zone 10a.

Any thoughts and feedback would be appreciated.

Welcome to PalmTalk!  If you're only looking to do this for one or a couple of stations, you can probably get away with just recording the annual lows for the stations you want to check out and then doing the averages in a spreadsheet.

As far as a full modern map to compete with the USDA map goes:

I'm not sure if @Silas_Sancona , @aztropic, or @ahosey01 have any maps of Arizona or the Phoenix area in particular, but I can explain how to make a map from NOAA data.  One thing to note is that the maps tend to be less accurate on a local scale out west due to macro and micro topographical changes. 

To make a map, it helps to have the following:

  • A GMail account
  • Moderate to advanced knowledge of spreadsheet applications
  • Helpful: Knowledge of database table creation, imports and queries.
    • For such a small data set, you can use the Express or Trial versions of many databases, or just use SQLite.

The process I use includes the following:

  • Download the raw data needed from NOAA: https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/search
  • You'll need to get a list of stations with temperature data and grab those for their entire date range.
    • The full list is available here: https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/pub/data/noaa/isd-history.txt
    • An Excel list for all US stations is attached to this post for the convenience of anyone who would like to try this.
    • There are scripts online that can automate the process if you're good with Python or another programming language.
  • Create a database with tables for:
    • NOAA_Stations: This will be a listing of all of the stations with the following information/columns:
      • NOAA_ID: the USCxxxxxxxx, USRxxxxxxxx, or USWxxxxxxxx identifier
      • NOAA_NAME: The name of the station
      • LATITUDE: The latitude and longitude are essential for plotting them on the map later
      • LONGITUDE:
      • ELEVATION: Optional, but can explain why some areas are inordinately warm or cool compared to surrounding stations.
      • My own personal: you'll notice in my generated spreadsheets, there is information for most of the airports like their identifier and a link to their WUnderground site so we can easily compare the records from NOAA to those on WUnderground.
    • Station_Records: The important components you'll need
      • NOAA_ID: So you can join this table to the NOAA Stations table in your queries
      • RECORD_DATE:This can be done a lot of different ways. 
        • Initially, I would use Excel to split the date into YEAR (YYYY), MONTH (MM), DAY (DD) before import to make it very easy to group statistics by year
        • At this point, it is just as easy to use the ISO date format (YYYYMMDD) and group the query by the first 4 characters
      • HIGH_TEMP: optional for zone.  I included it because I wanted to know how often our highs did not reach certain thresholds.
      • LOW_TEMP: most important for zone maps since this is what is being measured statistically.
      • Optional: I include PRECIP in my downloads.
    • My own personal tables that may not help you much:
      • TAGs: Regions I created these for Florida based on latitude and longitude boundaries
      • Expanded_Zones: I split the zones into 5 rather than 2 subsections in order to more finely delineate subtle microclimates.
  • Import the NOAA_Stations and Station_Records into their respective tables.
    • Almost all DB products allow CSV import.  SQLite uses this.
    • Microsoft SQL Server allows Excel file import.
  • Sanitize the data:
    • Numbers outside of certain ranges are obviously spurious.
    • In Florida, numbers above 115F or below -2F are incorrect. 
    • My method: I set them to NULL so they are easy to exclude from queries.
  • Run queries to:
    • Calculate the annual low for each year for each station
      • It is helpful to have a table to store this information so you can query it directly for the next item.
    • Average the lows over various time intervals. 
      • The USDA standard for a hardiness zone is 30 years.
      • Be careful using database standard AVERAGE() functions on integers as they will truncate any decimals.  Ex. 32.9 => 32F instead of rounding.
    • Generate a spreadsheet containing the station names, latitude, longitude, and hardiness zone(s).
      • Optionally include additional information like the calculated average annual low
  • Login to GMail and use Google to create a map.
    • After the map is created, you should be able to use the import feature to upload your spreadsheet.
    • By default, Google will select the Latitude and longitude in your sheet to plot you data on the map.
    • Select a field to identify the data points. 
      • I personally use NOAA_NAME.

 

Even this description is a bit generalized as the process has been refined many times over the last 3 years.  One thing is for sure... you'll get a lot better at using spreadsheet formulas and SQL queries with JOINs than you ever thought you could be after attempting this.

If anyone wants to see it live, we can do a Zoom demo sometime.

20220608_US_USCnUSW.xlsx

  • Upvote 2

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

Welcome to PalmTalk!  If you're only looking to do this for one or a couple of stations, you can probably get away with just recording the annual lows for the stations you want to check out and then doing the averages in a spreadsheet.

As far as a full modern map to compete with the USDA map goes:

I'm not sure if @Silas_Sancona , @aztropic, or @ahosey01 have any maps of Arizona or the Phoenix area in particular, but I can explain how to make a map from NOAA data.  One thing to note is that the maps tend to be less accurate on a local scale out west due to macro and micro topographical changes. 

To make a map, it helps to have the following:

  • A GMail account
  • Moderate to advanced knowledge of spreadsheet applications
  • Helpful: Knowledge of database table creation, imports and queries.
    • For such a small data set, you can use the Express or Trial versions of many databases, or just use SQLite.

The process I use includes the following:

  • Download the raw data needed from NOAA: https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/search
  • You'll need to get a list of stations with temperature data and grab those for their entire date range.
    • The full list is available here: https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/pub/data/noaa/isd-history.txt
    • An Excel list for all US stations is attached to this post for the convenience of anyone who would like to try this.
    • There are scripts online that can automate the process if you're good with Python or another programming language.
  • Create a database with tables for:
    • NOAA_Stations: This will be a listing of all of the stations with the following information/columns:
      • NOAA_ID: the USCxxxxxxxx, USRxxxxxxxx, or USWxxxxxxxx identifier
      • NOAA_NAME: The name of the station
      • LATITUDE: The latitude and longitude are essential for plotting them on the map later
      • LONGITUDE:
      • ELEVATION: Optional, but can explain why some areas are inordinately warm or cool compared to surrounding stations.
      • My own personal: you'll notice in my generated spreadsheets, there is information for most of the airports like their identifier and a link to their WUnderground site so we can easily compare the records from NOAA to those on WUnderground.
    • Station_Records: The important components you'll need
      • NOAA_ID: So you can join this table to the NOAA Stations table in your queries
      • RECORD_DATE:This can be done a lot of different ways. 
        • Initially, I would use Excel to split the date into YEAR (YYYY), MONTH (MM), DAY (DD) before import to make it very easy to group statistics by year
        • At this point, it is just as easy to use the ISO date format (YYYYMMDD) and group the query by the first 4 characters
      • HIGH_TEMP: optional for zone.  I included it because I wanted to know how often our highs did not reach certain thresholds.
      • LOW_TEMP: most important for zone maps since this is what is being measured statistically.
      • Optional: I include PRECIP in my downloads.
    • My own personal tables that may not help you much:
      • TAGs: Regions I created these for Florida based on latitude and longitude boundaries
      • Expanded_Zones: I split the zones into 5 rather than 2 subsections in order to more finely delineate subtle microclimates.
  • Import the NOAA_Stations and Station_Records into their respective tables.
    • Almost all DB products allow CSV import.  SQLite uses this.
    • Microsoft SQL Server allows Excel file import.
  • Sanitize the data:
    • Numbers outside of certain ranges are obviously spurious.
    • In Florida, numbers above 115F or below -2F are incorrect. 
    • My method: I set them to NULL so they are easy to exclude from queries.
  • Run queries to:
    • Calculate the annual low for each year for each station
      • It is helpful to have a table to store this information so you can query it directly for the next item.
    • Average the lows over various time intervals. 
      • The USDA standard for a hardiness zone is 30 years.
      • Be careful using database standard AVERAGE() functions on integers as they will truncate any decimals.  Ex. 32.9 => 32F instead of rounding.
    • Generate a spreadsheet containing the station names, latitude, longitude, and hardiness zone(s).
      • Optionally include additional information like the calculated average annual low
  • Login to GMail and use Google to create a map.
    • After the map is created, you should be able to use the import feature to upload your spreadsheet.
    • By default, Google will select the Latitude and longitude in your sheet to plot you data on the map.
    • Select a field to identify the data points. 
      • I personally use NOAA_NAME.

 

Even this description is a bit generalized as the process has been refined many times over the last 3 years.  One thing is for sure... you'll get a lot better at using spreadsheet formulas and SQL queries with JOINs than you ever thought you could be after attempting this.

If anyone wants to see it live, we can do a Zoom demo sometime.

20220608_US_USCnUSW.xlsx 1.71 MB · 0 downloads


Not any depicting year to year data, other than what i experience.. Other than looking over data available from the NWS,  cross reference that with any longer term data from Wx. Underground for finer detailed data from neighborhood to neighborhood since what Phoenix proper ..or even a couple miles away at Chandler Muni, / Phoenix- Mesa Gateway Airport  experiences can be a bit different than what i experience here at the house..
 

8 hours ago, 80s Kid said:

I realize this is a bit of a curveball, but does anyone have similar zone/microclimate info for the Phoenix Metro area? I just moved to the area last year and it appears to be very difficult for the temps to drop below 30F in many areas. The lowest temp I recorded this past winter was 33 but that's just one year.

I realize there are other pitfalls such as a lack of humidity/moisture and intense heat but many areas appear to be solid Zone 10a.

Any thoughts and feedback would be appreciated.

Welcome to the Forum.. Out of curiosity, which general side of town are you located?   As a general rule, yes, anywhere inside the Loop 101  doesn't see temps. drop below freezing very often ..but they have often enough to still pose a threat at times..

Outer areas of town.. Say Surprise, N. Scottsdale, Queen Creek and San Tan, Far West Valley areas can definitely drop below freezing occasionally. 

Having been here 6 years, i've seen it drop below 32F a few times where i'm located in Chandler.. That said, those drops are brief and typically scattered through the winter, vs. being back to back..  Lowest i think it has been since living in the area is 29 or 8..  Going w/ the tropical-ish stuff growing in my neighborhood/ stuff i grow, don't think it has gone lower than that since -at least - 2015.. 

There was a fairly significant cold snap in 2012 or 13 where some parts of Chandler ( Chandler Heights / Queen Creek, etc " fringe " areas of town ) may have gotten down into the lower 20s possibly flirting with 19F or so on a night or two.. and areas of Phoenix or Glendale dropped well into the 20s for at least one night.. Listed areas have developed quite a bit since ( and continue to be developed at a pretty rapid pace ) and while another  good cold spell is always possible, the depth and effectiveness of the next big chill likely won't be quite as pronounced.

As mentioned though, a cold event like that hasn't occurred in awhile.. 

The bigger thing you want to keep in mind here is what our summer sun / heat  can ( ..and will )  do to pretty much anything, especially tender- leaved tropical stuff..  If you have a big enough space to do so, Plant as many canopy- forming trees as you can fit into your yard..  If not, take full advantage of any microclimate areas in your yard where tender plants will be protected from the sun, especially noon to sunset.  Can't emphasize this enough..

As you'll see, i post fairly regularly about whats going on w/ the weather here in town here ( in the " Current temp "/ Monsoon Season Threads ) so you can see what  cold i've experienced since living here.. Compared to other areas, cold here is pretty insignificant ..but, can still cause damage..



As far as trustworthy weather data..  NWS is ok for a " general " look.. I personally use Wx Underground and Pivitol WX data for finer detail stuff..  UofA ( U of Arizona ) Hydrology and Atmospheric Sciences department has an excellent program called the " AZ Regional WRF Forecasts "  worth looking into. The person who helps run it, Mike Leuthold, is a top forecaster here in the state and very trustworthy.  Check in w/ him on twitter, esp during this time of year.  Is the only local forecaster who does regular, and in- depth " Monsoon Season " discussions.


Again, welcome to both the forum, and the area..  feel free to PM me if you have any additional questions.

Edited by Silas_Sancona
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I appreciate the info although based on the data I've looked at I find it hard to believe it drops into the low 20s in Phoenix Metro unless it's a very rare occurrence or the location is out in the desert, far away from the city. I could be wrong though.

I live around the Fountain Hills area which is east of Scottsdale and after looking at all-time record lows (not sure of the source but possibly NOAA) it was around 23 or 25 for this area. If I can find the source I'll post it but the Fountain Hills area apparently is slightly more mild than downtown Phoenix in the winter which I found interesting.

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9 minutes ago, 80s Kid said:

I appreciate the info although based on the data I've looked at I find it hard to believe it drops into the low 20s in Phoenix Metro unless it's a very rare occurrence or the location is out in the desert, far away from the city. I could be wrong though.

I live around the Fountain Hills area which is east of Scottsdale and after looking at all-time record lows (not sure of the source but possibly NOAA) it was around 23 or 25 for this area. If I can find the source I'll post it but the Fountain Hills area apparently is slightly more mild than downtown Phoenix in the winter which I found interesting.

Definitely rare, esp. in Phoenix proper ( Downtown / Sky Harbor / around Desert Botanical / the Zoo )

Elevation also plays a big part in how chilly different parts of town can get..  Dense, cold air will always seek the lowest pocket it can find which is why places like San Tan Valley, Queen Creek ( Many people ..here in Chandler at least refer to Queen Creek as simply " Q.C. " ) will often run colder than Fountain Hills, Ahwatukee / South Mountain can during such events..  Gilbert, Chandler, Mesa, and Tempe are kind of in the middle.. Warm, most of the time, yes  ..but pockets of each area can see some chilly readings from time to time as well. Guaranteed, as more of the Southeast Valley  between Queen Creek, Florence, and Coolidge fills in w/ development, seeing really cold readings will all but disappear.

There's an area out in the desert i frequent out east of Florence which you'd think would be pretty cold, but isn't.. Is listed as 9B.. Based on some of the cold sensitive Native plants growing out there, are pretty confident in the " Zone 9b " listing.  While many parts of that area look flat, the elevation actually graduates high to low from the hills to the east so that Florence can actually be cooler than some of the low hill tops further east.

If you haven't been able to make a trip out there yet, would highly suggest a visit to Boyce Thompson Arboretum..  While they can occasionally get dusted w/ snow, they can grow some pretty interesting things you'd not expect to see in a garden far removed from the heat island of Phoenix..  Tohono Chul Park, and the AZ. Sonoran Desert Museum in Tucson are two additional great places to visit to see how elevation can influence the effects of cold temperatures..

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Well put and thanks for the recommendation. I used to visit Longwood Gardens in PA often and would highly recommend that place to anyone if you happen to be near the area. 

Decades ago when Phoenix was much smaller it was definitely cooler but things have changed a lot. I'm not sure what bougainvillea is typically hardy to but can say it's everywhere around here. I have family around St. Augustine, FL and know on at least one or two occasions that bougainvillea vines/shrubs have been hit hard by cold snaps in that area (Zone 9b). 

I'm in a pretty low area although there's a wash nearby that seems to suck all of the coldest air into it. I can literally walk a few hundred feet down the road and you feel a wall of cooler air as you get near the wash. 

Basically I'm wondering if a Cocos Nucifera (sp?) can be grown here if adequate moisture and humidity are provided. People grow huge citrus trees all over. I have a hibiscus that was out all winter with zero issues except that it got too big so I planted it in the ground this spring. It's doing well in the intense summer heat (it's around 115 right now) as long as I give it plenty of water.

I like a challenge but it's a pain trying to get out of state plants into AZ. In PA (Zone 7a/b) I had 2 Windmill Palms (photo) growing that made it through 2 winters and a Takil Palm for probably 5 winters (although it would sometimes defoliate but start growing again in the spring).

 

PXL_20210715_222942167.jpg

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