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sabal guatemalensis/Sabal mexicana


RJ
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Here are differences in seed sizes with a couple other species to compare.  Guatemalensis seeds are a couple of mm smaller than mexicana.

 

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Jon Sunder

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10 hours ago, Fusca said:

Guatemalensis seeds are a couple of mm smaller than mexicana.

That is what Webbia Volume 2 first reported.  It identified Sabal guatemalensis as having approx. 10mm sized seeds, and Sabal mexicana as having approx. 10-14mm sized seeds.

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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Another thing I have noticed differentiating guatemalensis and mexicana is the heel.  I first germinated guatemalensis seeds back in 2012 and when I planted seedlings in ground here in 2017 there was hardly any heel noticeable.  However more recently when I germinated mexicana seeds I noticed a good sized heel developed within the first year - already larger than what the guatemalensis grew after 5 years!

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Jon Sunder

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21 minutes ago, Fusca said:

Another thing I have noticed differentiating guatemalensis and mexicana is the heel.  I first germinated guatemalensis seeds back in 2012 and when I planted seedlings in ground here in 2017 there was hardly any heel noticeable.  However more recently when I germinated mexicana seeds I noticed a good sized heel developed within the first year - already larger than what the guatemalensis grew after 5 years!

Yeah, Sabal sp. heel differentiation interests me as well.  There have been other discussions here on Palmtalk about Sabal sp. heels.  One common observation I have noticed is that Sabal palmetto growing wild typically exhibit little to no heel in the ground; whereas container germinated/grown Sabal palmetto do commonly show heel prominence (both in the container, and once transplanted in the ground).  The difference in heel prominence could be a result of varying grown conditions/mediums at the time of germination, and shortly thereafter.  Also, it could be dependent on how long you waited to put each in the ground, and how deep.  Heel prominence may very well be a species differentiation identifier, but it may also be a byproduct of early growing conditions (IMHO).

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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On 3/29/2021 at 5:57 AM, iamjv said:

A quick update on the Houston Sabal Guatemalensis and the 2021 freeze !

Just took a trip to Houston and swung by to see how these palms faired with the recent arctic freeze we had...   I'm happy to say they look remarkably well, as I was expecting more damage.   Certainly, the added protection of being in the downtown area, as well as planted next to the building, helped to increase the minimum temps a bit but overall they look great !   

They certainly do have more damage than the Sabal Mexicana's around town, so I continue to state these are a different species than Mexicana.

The juvenal offspring I have of these palms, sustained 100% frond damage in my garden west of San Antonio with no protection at all....  and they are currently pushing new fronds...   so I am confident this is a solid contender for a long-term palm in south-central Texas.  Hopefully the landscaper will allow them to seed again....   :)

Jv

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Wow, thanks for posting an update on these. I suspected these were a Caribbean Sabal Species, but which one? You said you got offspring on these too awhile back! You have pictures of them before the freeze and or after? The Guatemala sabal have a nutrient issue and look yellow, these have always been deep lush green.

Edited by Collectorpalms
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30 Year Zone Average 20F. Ryan: Contact 979.204.4161 Collectorpalms@gmail.com

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/3/2021 at 8:18 AM, Collectorpalms said:

Wow, thanks for posting an update on these. I suspected these were a Caribbean Sabal Species, but which one? You said you got offspring on these too awhile back! You have pictures of them before the freeze and or after? The Guatemala sabal have a nutrient issue and look yellow, these have always been deep lush green.

The largest offspring that I had in the ground was comparable to that of a 15gal palm....   it had/has 100% frond damage from the arctic blast but it's pushing new fronds just like all the other sabals in the yard.   My low here was 8F.

BTW after taking the photos of those palms down by the Galleria area, I researched local weather stations in the area and it seems as though that part of the Houston downtown area only got down to about 20F.    I know I was shocked too but I checked several home weather stations in and around that area and clearly there was a heat island effect there!   So if those temps are true, that might be why the palms look as good as they do.    On the positive side, the one I have in the ground and a few others in pots are all growing and seem to be reliably hardy to 8F, if you don't mind the crown needing to regrow from such an event !

In the attached photo, the Sabal G is in the foreground between the large Mexicana to the left and the Uresana to it's right !

Jv

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Jv in San Antonio Texas / Zone 8/extremes past 29 yrs: 117F (47.2C) / 8F (-13.3C)

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2 hours ago, iamjv said:

BTW after taking the photos of those palms down by the Galleria area, I researched local weather stations in the area and it seems as though that part of the Houston downtown area only got down to about 20F.  

In almost any other event yes, but not this time. It was 14F in the Galleria and central Houston. The nuked queens and robustas would seem to agree. 

 

Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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  • 1 month later...

For those interested, I was at Barton Springs Nursery in Austin last week and they had some palms left labeled Guatemalensis.

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I wonder if this is what is in the courtyard at the San Antonio botanical garden? I had heard the seed was collected in Mexico but don’t know much else about them. There is one that looks like a causiarum type.

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