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Are Sabal guatemalensis and Sabal mexicana the same palm? I want to add some especially after seeing these in this thread:

 

 

These look great! Big robust palms more so then the common petite in comparison S. Palmeto I have by the hundreds around me. 

sabal guatemalensis.jpg

Edited by RJ
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7 minutes ago, RJ said:

Are Sabal guatemalensis and Sabal mexicana the same palm?

Randy, I had read the same thing that they are considered the same but some more knowledgeable folks here on PT are convinced that they are definitely different.  There is a palm at a botanical garden in Houston labeled "Sabal guatemalensis" that I have been told is an accurate ID.  It does seem to me to be different and I collected/germinated some seeds from this palm back in 2012.  Slowest palm I have ever grown from seed, but once in the ground it has grown much faster.  Has a bluish tint to the leaves and is just starting to develop a 'heel' after 7 years!  I'll post a few photos tomorrow. Based on old threads, the only others I know of that are growing this palm are @PalmatierMeg@Peter Pacific, @Jan Jo and now @Briank        Not sure about the ID of the palms in the photo.  I have easy access to S. mexicana seeds and could collect more S. guatemalensis seeds on my next trip to H-town.

Jon

 

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Jon Sunder

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8 minutes ago, Fusca said:

Randy, I had read the same thing that they are considered the same but some more knowledgeable folks here on PT are convinced that they are definitely different.  There is a palm at a botanical garden in Houston labeled "Sabal guatemalensis" that I have been told is an accurate ID.  It does seem to me to be different and I collected/germinated some seeds from this palm back in 2012.  Slowest palm I have ever grown from seed, but once in the ground it has grown much faster.  Has a bluish tint to the leaves and is just starting to develop a 'heel' after 7 years!  I'll post a few photos tomorrow. Based on old threads, the only others I know of that are growing this palm are @PalmatierMeg@Peter Pacific, @Jan Jo and now @Briank        Not sure about the ID of the palms in the photo.  I have easy access to S. mexicana seeds and could collect more S. guatemalensis seeds on my next trip to H-town.

Jon

 

Jon, 

 

That is certainly some good information right there. The palms pictured I think are in Texas. @iamjv is from San Antonio so I'm not sure if these are located there or not. I want to put these in front of a line a S. causiarum for a teared look. I would certainly be interested in some seed or seedlings. :greenthumb:

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Yes, JV is here in San Antonio.  I believe that photo that he posted is somewhere in the Houston area and he seems to think that they are S. guatemalensis so they might be.  I'd like to compare photos I have of the labeled palm at the botanical garden and this photo.  Regardless those are nice Sabals in his photo!

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Jon Sunder

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I don't have Sabal mexicana but I have a Sabal guatemalensis given to me as a seedling by Peter Pacific (who lives in Guatemala). I disagree with the "Lumpers" who want to subsume this palm into the mexicana species. It is quite different from any other Sabal I have seen in person or in photos. It is indeed slow growing and is nowhere near trunking or flowering even though it is ~10-12 years old. It grows in full sun on my garden lot, yet notice how upright the leaves are and how long the petioles. It appears stretched out like a shade grown palm. When it was younger it seemed prone to yellowing from nutritional issues so I gave it extra nutrients. Now all I do is fertilize 2x per year.

If you love Sabals this species is well worth growing, if you can find one. I've never seen it available in the US. If not for Peter's generosity years ago I wouldn't have mine. You'll have to search diligently and frequently.

The two photos below are of my S.g. taken 4 years apart.

Sabal guatemalensis, 2014, Cape Coral, FL

Sabal_guatemalensis_01_2-6-14.thumb.JPG.48eb15e4f175000622a390011218fc7d.JPG

Sabal guatemalensis, 2018, Cape Coral, FL

Sabal_guatemalensis_03_05-09-18.thumb.jpg.0bb7dc6e69f215a47ec6507026701d81.jpg

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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It is indeed hard to find.  The only time I've seen one for sale was at a nursery in Austin where the owner had grown them from seed as I had.  His were probably 1 year older than mine.  This is my smaller one (too close to the fence):

1322522658_Sabalguatemalensis2.thumb.JPG.60d923096c524418438b28c931247e26.JPG

And this is the mother tree at the botanical garden in Houston:

004.thumb.JPG.19d01c8972ae963de9d1131502142d4c.JPG

Edited by Fusca
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Jon Sunder

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I dunno. :unsure: Megs doesn't look as costapalmate as the one pictured above.  Neither look like the one JV posted.  If that's the typical speed of guatemalensis I'm not sure that it will work.  

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7 hours ago, RJ said:

These look great! Big robust palms more so then the common petite in comparison S. Palmeto I have by the hundreds around me. 

 sabal guatemalensis.jpg

Im gonna have to find these and see them in person. Look at all the fronds there holding 

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T J 

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4 hours ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Im gonna have to find these and see them in person. Look at all the fronds there holding 

Do you look for the pink hotel or the rocking grouping of 7 palms ? :D

 

 

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3 hours ago, RJ said:

Do you look for the pink hotel or the rocking grouping of 7 palms ? :D

 

 

Both haha prolly easier to find the pink building on google 

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T J 

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15 hours ago, RJ said:

I dunno. :unsure: Megs doesn't look as costapalmate as the one pictured above.  Neither look like the one JV posted.  If that's the typical speed of guatemalensis I'm not sure that it will work.  

I'm not sure the ones JV posted aren't S. mexicana.  These do look slightly different than the S. mexicana I've seen here in San Antonio - and there are hundreds of mexicanas here.  I'll snap a few pix of some today.

Here is my larger S. guatemalensis that shows a similar upright growth to Meg's palm and a bit more bluish color:

 

IMG_20190627_184900.jpg

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Jon Sunder

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Here is a Sabal mexicana about a half mile from my office.  Unfortunately it's overtrimmed (like so many palmettos in Florida) but it's roughly the same size as the S. guatemalensis in the Houston botanical garden.  Even if you were to strip away the old leaf bases on the mexicana the trunk appears to be a lot thicker than the guatemalensis.  The palms that JV posted outside a Houston condo certainly receives more rain and runoff from that building and has not been over-trimmed.

 

Sabal mex 1.jpg

Here are a couple of relatively new median plantings of S. mexicana along US-90:

 

Sabal mex 2.jpg

Sabal mex 3.jpg

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Jon Sunder

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:greenthumb: looking good thanks for the photos!

Hesperia,Southern CA (High Desert area). Zone 8b

Elevation; about 3600 ft.

Lowest temp. I can expect each year 19/20*f lowest since I've been growing palms *13(2007) Hottest temp. Each year *106

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On 6/27/2019 at 9:22 PM, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Im gonna have to find these and see them in person. Look at all the fronds there holding 

If I remember correctly, the palms are somewhere in the west loop near the Galleria area. If you dig hard enough, JV pretty much gave away the exact location. 

Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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13 minutes ago, Xenon said:

If I remember correctly, the palms are somewhere in the west loop near the Galleria area. If you dig hard enough, JV pretty much gave away the exact location. 

Ooh like a treasure hunt Haha have you seen them in person already ? 

T J 

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A little anecdotal, but I've seen the Houston ones and some in Belize. Seems like guatamalensis retains green on the leaf bases longer. Gives to a more green, tropical overall feel.

Longview, Texas :: Record Low: -5F, Feb. 16, 2021 :: Borderline 8A/8B :: '06-'07: 18F / '07-'08: 21F / '08-'09: 21F / '09-'10: 14F / '10-'11: 15F / '11-'12: 24F / '12-'13: 23F / '13-'14: 15F / '14-'15: 20F / '15-'16: 27F / '16-'17: 15F / '17-'18: 8F / '18-'19: 23F / '19-'20: 19F / '20-'21: -5F / '21-'22: 20F

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9 hours ago, buffy said:

A little anecdotal, but I've seen the Houston ones and some in Belize. Seems like guatamalensis retains green on the leaf bases longer. Gives to a more green, tropical overall feel.

You have a pretty extensive sabal collection if I recall. Do you happen to have guatamalensis, and if so is your growth experience pretty similar to Meg's? 

 

It's not that I'm opposed to slow sabals as pretty much most of them are relative to other species, but for the intended purpose of this planting it wouldn't work. I would be happy to plant it in another area of my property.

 

 

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19 hours ago, jimmyt said:

Here is my S. mexicana for comparison or confusion.98D06937-58F3-48CD-AA6D-76909DD7FB06.thumb.jpeg.cc4704f18a62f40b1cd9c55fac089e38.jpeg

That's a fine looking sabal right there. I would certainly prefer that to my native sabal. 

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  • 1 year later...
On 6/27/2019 at 1:55 PM, RJ said:

Are Sabal guatemalensis and Sabal mexicana the same palm? I want to add some especially after seeing these in this thread:

 

 

These look great! Big robust palms more so then the common petite in comparison S. Palmeto I have by the hundreds around me. 

sabal guatemalensis.jpg

 

On 6/27/2019 at 1:55 PM, RJ said:

Are Sabal guatemalensis and Sabal mexicana the same palm? I want to add some especially after seeing these in this thread:

 

 

These look great! Big robust palms more so then the common petite in comparison S. Palmeto I have by the hundreds around me. 

sabal guatemalensis.jpg

I would be curious how these Sabals faired in Houston after the 2021 freeze. While it 'only" got to 14F, it would be interesting if they have burned or not. They are just south of the Galleria on Rice St I recall. I never saw seeds or inflorences, I think the landscapers always cut them off early.

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30 Year Zone Average 20F. Ryan: Contact 979.204.4161 Collectorpalms@gmail.com

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25 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

I have yet to have seen any Palmettos around town yet, that were burned. 

YOU missed the point, they are not sabal palmettos, and just travel north of Houston and you will see burned sabals species. This is a huge species if you actually saw it in person.  There are also zamia and were queens right around the corner.

Edited by Collectorpalms

30 Year Zone Average 20F. Ryan: Contact 979.204.4161 Collectorpalms@gmail.com

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On 6/28/2019 at 2:03 PM, Fusca said:

Here is a Sabal mexicana about a half mile from my office.  Unfortunately it's overtrimmed (like so many palmettos in Florida) but it's roughly the same size as the S. guatemalensis in the Houston botanical garden.  Even if you were to strip away the old leaf bases on the mexicana the trunk appears to be a lot thicker than the guatemalensis.  The palms that JV posted outside a Houston condo certainly receives more rain and runoff from that building and has not been over-trimmed.

 

SSabal mex 1.jpg

 

 

 

Yikes!!!! It should be a crime!

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13 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

YOU missed the point, they are not sabal palmettos, and just travel north of Houston and you will see burned sabals species. This is a huge species if you actually saw it in person.  There are also zamia and were queens right around the corner.

Do you think these are Sabal mexicana or something else? 

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If my Betrock's Cold Hardy Palms book is to be believed, S guatemalensis is considerably more tender to cold than mexicana, they have guatemalensis listed at 28*F and mexicana at 10*F.  If this is true I wouldn't recommend it for SC or even Houston on a normal year.

Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked back to the stone age of zone 8.

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1 hour ago, Xerarch said:

If my Betrock's Cold Hardy Palms book is to be believed, S guatemalensis is considerably more tender to cold than mexicana, they have guatemalensis listed at 28*F and mexicana at 10*F.  If this is true I wouldn't recommend it for SC or even Houston on a normal year.

I guess not.  Here is my Sabal guatemalensis after consecutive nights of 9° and 13° completely unprotected.  Some leaf damage to outermost fronds (40-60%) but no harm to newest inner leaves or spear which you can see is opening up here since the freeze event.  I would say it's only slightly less hardy than mexicana based on what I've seen locally.

 

IMG_20210222_180228_hdr.thumb.jpg.c6a439eeb9148064c4c1cb544cffa861.jpg

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Jon Sunder

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They are significantly larger than Sabal Mexicana, therefore I do not think they are the same animal. That is just my opinion, I have Sabal Mexicana and they do not look anything like them. They are much larger. I wanted to find seed but never did. My memory is they are about the size of Bismarckia.

Edited by Collectorpalms

30 Year Zone Average 20F. Ryan: Contact 979.204.4161 Collectorpalms@gmail.com

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2 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

They are significantly larger than Sabal Mexicana, therefore I do not think they are the same animal. That is just my opinion, I have Sabal Mexicana and they do not look anything like them. They are much larger. I wanted to find seed but never did. My memory is they are about the size of Bismarckia.

Umph. The saga continues. I can't believe the landscapers are so diligent to not miss one inflorescences, :rant:

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On 3/12/2021 at 4:44 PM, Collectorpalms said:

YOU missed the point, they are not sabal palmettos, and just travel north of Houston and you will see burned sabals species. This is a huge species if you actually saw it in person.  There are also zamia and were queens right around the corner.

I do get what your saying and since I'm a novice Sabal identifier I'm lumping all Sabals as the more common Palmetto for the area. Maybe there aren't any Mexicana or Texicana in South Houston. As of now still none burnt, of course I haven't ventured North of I-10 yet either. 

T J 

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11 hours ago, jimmyt said:

Palmpedia lists S.guatemalensis as a synonym for S. mexicana.  So the discussion/argument can continue!  :blink:

Hah, that's what I had assumed! Interesting thread!

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1 hour ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

I do get what your saying and since I'm a novice Sabal identifier I'm lumping all Sabals as the more common Palmetto for the area. Maybe there aren't any Mexicana or Texicana in South Houston. As of now still none burnt, of course I haven't ventured North of I-10 yet either. 

Oh there are definitely mexicana in Houston, especially close to town. They are not exceedingly rare, but palmetto as a whole is more common. The mexicana posted in this thread are not the "typical" form found along the Rio Grande and in TX landscapes. 

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/27/2019 at 3:04 PM, Fusca said:

It is indeed hard to find.  The only time I've seen one for sale was at a nursery in Austin where the owner had grown them from seed as I had.  His were probably 1 year older than mine.  This is my smaller one (too close to the fence):

1322522658_Sabalguatemalensis2.thumb.JPG.60d923096c524418438b28c931247e26.JPG

And this is the mother tree at the botanical garden in Houston:

004.thumb.JPG.19d01c8972ae963de9d1131502142d4c.JPG

I saw some 5 gallon Sabal Guatamala at Barton Springs Nursery They had a slight tent of yellow to them they were a bit off compared to Sabal Mexican. Is there where you got yours by chance. I passed them up this time.

30 Year Zone Average 20F. Ryan: Contact 979.204.4161 Collectorpalms@gmail.com

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I will just have to take a day trip every year in hopes of getting seed if I ever want to make sure I get the right thing.

30 Year Zone Average 20F. Ryan: Contact 979.204.4161 Collectorpalms@gmail.com

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4 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

I saw some 5 gallon Sabal Guatamala at Barton Springs Nursery They had a slight tent of yellow to them they were a bit off compared to Sabal Mexican. Is there where you got yours by chance. I passed them up this time.

I grew mine from seed off the tree at Mercer Arboretum.  I posted a photo of that tree (see what I wrote in between the photos).  And yes, Barton Springs Nursery is the only place I have seen Sabal guatemalensis for sale.  I talked to the owner of Barton Springs and he likes to grow them from seed he collects.  He tries to keep his stock "zone appropriate" and likes to have cold hardy palms available.  I told him about Sabal 'Birmingham' and 'Brazoria' and he was not aware of them so I emailed him some info from the website of the nursery in NC that carries them.  I have a dozen or so seeds of S. guatemalensis that I collected from Mercer this past season but they were all pre-mature drops.  They'll still germinate though.

Jon Sunder

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I bought a Sabal from Barton a few years ago that was confusingly labeled. I want to say the sign said "Sabal causarium" but the tag said "Sabal guatemalensis." Or maybe the sign said "Sabal bermudana." Can't recall any more. It has slowly shown some burn, whereas S. causarium and S. uresana look unblemished.

Hopefully, the new owners at Barton will keep bringing in interesting stuff like that.

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A quick update on the Houston Sabal Guatemalensis and the 2021 freeze !

Just took a trip to Houston and swung by to see how these palms faired with the recent arctic freeze we had...   I'm happy to say they look remarkably well, as I was expecting more damage.   Certainly, the added protection of being in the downtown area, as well as planted next to the building, helped to increase the minimum temps a bit but overall they look great !   

They certainly do have more damage than the Sabal Mexicana's around town, so I continue to state these are a different species than Mexicana.

The juvenal offspring I have of these palms, sustained 100% frond damage in my garden west of San Antonio with no protection at all....  and they are currently pushing new fronds...   so I am confident this is a solid contender for a long-term palm in south-central Texas.  Hopefully the landscaper will allow them to seed again....   :)

Jv

20210328_104055.jpg

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Jv in San Antonio Texas / Zone 8/extremes past 29 yrs: 117F (47.2C) / 8F (-13.3C)

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1 hour ago, iamjv said:

They certainly do have more damage than the Sabal Mexicana's around town, so I continue to state these are a different species than Mexicana.

The juvenal offspring I have of these palms, sustained 100% frond damage in my garden west of San Antonio with no protection at all....  and they are currently pushing new fronds... 

That's pretty consistent with what I have seen as far as overall cold hardiness.  Thanks for the update!

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Jon Sunder

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As a Sabal sp. lover, I find this thread fascinating.  Particularly, what characteristics different people use to identify various Sabal sp.  While I am by no means an expert, I do have some thoughts on Sabal sp. identification.

 

 

Some say that Sabal mexicana has a larger trunk girth and fuller crown than other Sabal sp. (particularly larger on both counts, I have heard, than Sabal palmetto).  While I have found through observation that this does seem to be the case much of the time (at least anecdotally), I am also hesitant to utilize trunk girth and crown size as a sole determinate for species identification.  I prefer to also use seed size/shape to assist in identification.  From my own experience, Sabal mexicana has the largest seeds of any Sabal sp. I have run across.  Some say the so-called Sabal riverside has similar large seeds as well; however, my own current working theory is that what people call Sabal riverside is actually Sabal mexicana, or possibly a Sabal mexicana hybrid.  Sabal palmetto usually has very small seeds.  It would be interesting to note the seed size of those Houston Sabal guatemalensis candidates.

 

 

The International Plant Names Index (IPNI) and the Kew Garden’s Plants of the World (POWO) are usually my go-to sites for current species identification.  As of right now, they list Sabal guatemalensis as a synonym for Sabal mexicana.  Two sources, however, list it as a separate species; namely, “Webbia 2: 68 (1907)” and “Govaerts, R. & Dransfield, J. (2005). World Checklist of Palms: 1-223. The Board of Trustees of the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew.”  The entries for Sabal guatemalensis in these two sources appear to be challenged by “Nelson Sutherland, C.H. (2008). Catálogo de las plantes vasculares de Honduras. Espermatofitas: 1-1576. SERNA/Guaymuras, Tegucigalpa, Honduras” and Stevens, W.D., Ulloa U., C., Pool, A. & Montiel, O.M. (2001). Flora de Nicaragua Monographs in Systematic Botany from the Missouri Botanical Garden 85: i-xlii, 1-2666.” These challenges were apparently accepted by the IPNI and the POWO, and Sabal guatemalensis is no longer listed as a separate species by either.

 

 

The three aforementioned 21st century scholarly publications are hard to come by (at least, without paying), so I can not determine why the species was reclassified.  I wonder if it was due to a genetic analysis/comparison of Sabal guatemalensis and Sabal mexicana?  I was able to find an online copy of the original identifications of both Sabal guatemalensis and Sabal mexicana in Webbia: Collection of Botanical Writings, Volume Two (1907).  In it, it appears that Martelli utilized a hierarchical approach to trait characterizations between the different Sabal sp.  I find it interesting that high up in that hierarchy is classification by means of seed size/shape.  Here, Martelli differentiates the two species by their seeds.  The link to the original Italian text is here (if anyone wants to really geek out).  Below are the applicable sections of Webbia Volume 2 for Sabal guatemalensis/Sabal mexicana (translated to English by Google Translate):

 

 

Martelli, U. (1907). Webbia: Collection of Botanical Writings, Volume Two

 

 

B. Palms with epigeal trunk. Leaves with very long spine, sometimes almost to the apex of the flap and arched. Spadici 3 plicato branched with tubular spades on the axillary part and also on the primary branches or partial infoirations.

 

 

1. Small fruits 10-14 mm in diameter, perfectly spherical rounded and symmetrical at the base.

 

 

II. Goblet and corolla strongly ribbed-nervous. (Sabal mexicana)

 

 

3. Small fruits about 1 cm in diameter with an oblique and asymmetrical base.

 

 

** Fronds with 1-sided segments; just crack. Fruitful perianth with deciduous or soon rotten petals. (Sabal guatemalensis)

 

 

+ Frond .... Flowers 4 mm long or slightly more; urceolate goblet restricted to the mouth at the base and very thick walls, not nervous-ribbed; nerve-ribbed petals on dry. (Sabal guatemalensis)

 

 

(pp. 16-17)

 

 

9. Sabal mexicana

 

 

Description. - Palma apparently 10-12 m high.

 

 

Fronds ....

 

 

Spadici with partial inflorations 50-60 cm long. (and perhaps even more) forming oval-oblong panicles composed of 6-9 alternating-distichous branches; spate 2 tubular sprays slightly dilated at the top, finely and clearly streaked, hairless or just forphoraceous - scaly, truncated, whole and bare at the base, prolonged on one side at a broadly triangular acute tip, so close together as not to leave any portion exposed of the axle part; the branches emerge erect from the respects and become arched-patent, often with a tendency to straighten and become ascending in their extremities, 15-20 cm long. (the shorter superiors), hairless in every part with the spathe proper to their pedicellar part acutely bicarinate, deeply bifid and more or less exhorted by the secondary spathe; the branches have a strongly angular and finely striated axial part and spirally bear 15-17 simple floriferous twigs; these arise from the armpit of a latently triangular acute exucca bract, they are filiform, about 1 mm. thick or slightly more at the base, angular, supple, subulate towards the apex, 8-12 cm long, densiflorous.

 

 

Flowers provided with bract and brattea, both scariose, very laterally triangular, acute; oblong-obovate budding flowers, rounded at the vertex, in the antesis 4 mm long; subcampanulate cupular calyx, usually a little narrow at the mouth, fleshy in the base, divided up to the middle into 3 large acute-muscular teeth, deltoid with scariosal-jaline margin not fed, covered by about 7 nerves, very prominent on the dry. Corolla twice as long as the calyx, tubular almost up to the middle; filli on the dry strongly striatum-nervous being crossed by about 7 longitudinal ribs, ovate-elliptical, concave-navicular, acute-muscular, relatively very thick; stamens with filaments all the same, in the antesis a little longer than the petals; acute ovate-sagittate anthers; ovary 3 mm long, somewhat shorter than the filaments, from the trigonal-elongated base, slightly narrowed towards the apex; capitulated stigma.

 

 

Habitat. - The typical specimens on which Martius founded the species were collected by Karwinski in the southernmost provinces of Mexico. I studied in Erb. of Monaco these specimens which consist of various large portions of spadix in bloom, the same ones remembered by Martius, but unfortunately the fruits and fronds are missing. Karwinski's label bears the sole indication of location: Oaxaca. Martius writes of S. Mexicana "It grows in the warm maritime regions of the Mexican empire in Chacahagua, near Jamiltepec, in the province of Oaxaca, as well as in Tehuantepec" and adds: "The specimens collected in Chagahagua were acauli, but no less fruitful; those observed in Tehuantepec, similar in all respects to the fronds and the fruit, had a trunk 20 feet high ». This last circumstance should not be surprising since the Sabal Palmetto also begins to flower and bear fruit when it does not yet have a distinct trunk.

 

 

It seems to me that no. 870 by Bernoulli and Cario di Champerico (Herb. Berol.) And a copy of Liebman di S. Jago Estata, dep. Oojaca (Erb. De Cand. Ex herb. Hafn.).

 

 

Another example certainly conspecific to the previous ones is the n. ° 826 Langlassé, of San Luis: height 50 m., Above sea level (Herb, de Candolle), accompanied by the note: Trunk 10-12 m high. 1 m long inflorescence. 50. White fragrant flowers. - Vulgar name. «Palma redonda».

 

 

Remarks. - According to its discoverer (Karwinski), the trunk of the Sabal mexicana reaches a height of up to 20 m. and the diam. of 10 cm.

 

 

Martius seems to be describing the foliage of the plants born in the Orto bot. of Monaco from the seeds sent by Karwinski and he says of them that they have the flap in the whole ovate-orbicular, palmate-multifidus, with the rachis that extends up to the third of the frond, the laciniae long sharp, bifid, pendulous, the innermost deeply disjoint.

 

 

The fruits are said to be depressed-globose; the subdimidiate-globose seeds somewhat larger than those of Sabal Adansoni (but of the same shape and color), but smaller than those of S. umbraculifera.

 

 

It is easily distinguished on the dry for its flowers with a tubular corolla in the lower half with patent fillies during anthesis; calyx and corolla strongly nervous-ribbed on the dry. The Sabal of southern Mexico is certainly distinct from the Sabal Rosei, which seems frequent in the central region and on the Pacific coast towards Mazatlan, but the flowers are not known with certainty and the other fruits are lacking. However these have been described by Martius as similar to those of S. umbraculifera (Palmetto), therefore considerably smaller than those of S. Rosei.

 

 

(pp 52-54)

 

 

14. Sabal guatemalensis

 

 

Spadix robustus, inflorescentiis partialibus amplis ad 80 cm. longis, ramulis floriferis angulosis, 10-12 cm. longis, 1.5 mm. crassis, subulatis. Florum alabaster oblong, rounded apex, capital, 4-4.2 min. long, 1.8 mm. crassa, calyce urceolato ad faucem nonnihil constricto, spisse carnoso, in sicco non vel inconspicue costulato-venoso, basi rotondato; corolla calyce duplo longiori, phyllis oblongis sub anthesi una cum staminibus patentibus conspicue costulato-nervosis, filamentis subulatis incurvo-ascendentibus; narrow ovary pyramidal, 3-gon, 8 mm. long.

 

 

Description. - The leaves are missing. The partial inflorescence on which the species is based, seems to have belonged to a very large robust spadix and forms a dense ovate-elongated cob in the whole almost 80 cm long. and composed of 12 branches or inflorescences 3 arched-curved and gradually decreasing; the peduncular part of the cob is compressed-ancipite and 12 mm wide .; the secondary spades are usually tubular, finely striated, truncated obliquely at the mouth and extended on one side into a sharp, pointed triangular tip; the lower branches are about 20 cm long. with 13-15 flowering twigs; the axillary part is very sharp and angular and has its special spatula protruding from the secondary sword, strongly bicarinated on the axillary side and very deeply divided at the apex into 2 subulate narrow horns; the twigs are relatively very thick, 1.5 mm. of diam., very distinctly angular, 10-12 cm long, very densely and regularly covered with flowers; very conspicuous triangular bracts and bracts with a wide base and a subulate fine tip.

 

 

Flowers in well-developed buds oblong with rounded apex, slightly contracted in the middle, 4-4.2 mm long, 1.8 mm wide .; urceolate calyx slightly narrowed at the jaw, all of very thick consistency but especially at the base, apparently fleshy on the fresh, wrinkled or corrugated on the dry but not clearly ribbed— venous, rounded at the bottom, dug below, divided to the upper third into 3 lobes acute-apiculate deltoids, scariosis at the margin; corolla twice as long as the calyx, tubular in the lower third, with strongly striate-ribbed fillets on the dry, concave-navicular, oblong obtuse, horizontal or even reflected during anthesis, then deciduous; stamens with narrow filaments subulate also patent and curved-ascending; ovary gradually and very narrowly pyramidal-trine, 3 mm long, capitalized stigma.

 

 

Habitat. - The typical specimen was collected by Skinner in Guatemala and sent by H. "Wendland in Xbre 1900 to the Berlin Herbarium.

 

 

Observations. - It differs from other species by its relatively very large flowers, when in oblong buds, rounded at the top and slightly contracted in the center, for the urceolate calyx a little narrow at the jaw, usually thick, not striated— ribbed, for the corolla only twice the length of the calyx and the fillets strongly striated-ribbed on the dry and patent in the anthers and pearls stamens with flexible subulate filaments, with ascending tip.

 

 

If the fruit described below is that of S. guatemaìensis, it would also be distinguished by being attenuated at the bottom but without a tendency to be resupplied. In fact, it seems to me that some twigs with immature fruits collected in Guatemala by Cario and donated to me by the Count of Solms in August 1887 can be traced back to S. guatemalensis.

 

 

These twigs are 13 cm long, filiform, subulate towards the apex, the rest of the uniform thickness of 1.5 mm., Densely covered in a spiral by the tubercles on which the flowers were inserted. The young fruits are 1 cm wide. about, globose-obpiriform, being slightly attenuated in a rather acute base, but otherwise globose with a rounded apex; the stylus at the base of the fruit is rigid, straight, slightly ascending, relatively robust, about 2 mm long. Pedicelliform fruiting perianth with immutable, calloused permanent calyx, with 3 broad acute deltoid lobes, not very distinctly striated-venous; petals and stamens deciduous or decaying.

 

 

(pp. 68-70)

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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