Growth speed Butia yatay x Jubea vs Jubea x Butia yatay

[MarkbVet]

On 7/23/2019 at 7:09 AM, Ben in Norcal said:

Tony, as I mentioned - my guess is that’s JxB. I will try and post a couple pictures here of my Patric JxB. Getting tougher to get pictures of the whole palm in my jungle!

 

 

On 11/25/2020 at 12:24 PM, Fallen Munk said:

He got back to me just now.  Gonna pull the trigger on one of each of these so I can compare.  BUTIA YATAY X JUBAEA and JUBAEA X BUTIA YATAY.

Nice plants Ben!  Where did u get your plant labels (in the ground outdoors).?  

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

3 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

.but I wonder if high humidity in summer (at your area) may play a role?? 

So I have had a pure Jubaea in a pot for 3 years now and humidity has never seemed to be a problem so far. Granted that can all change once it gets into our clay soil.

T J 

[MarkbVet]

23 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

So I have had a pure Jubaea in a pot for 3 years now and humidity has never seemed to be a problem so far. Granted that can all change once it gets into our clay soil.

T J 

Ah...maybe the clay/decreased drainage may play a role causing in-ground plants to be lost during wet season?  We have clay here too, but have to provide good elevated drainage and/or add sand etc to reduce water stagnation.  

[Paradise Found]

I have grown pure B. yata before and it slightly less hardy than B. orodata.  But I love these new cross's so may get one someday. 

[MarkbVet]

On 7/23/2019 at 7:09 AM, Ben in Norcal said:

Tony, as I mentioned - my guess is that’s JxB. I will try and post a couple pictures here of my Patric JxB. Getting tougher to get pictures of the whole palm in my jungle!

 

Ben, this is what Patrick had to say re: his BxJ and JxB hybrids (B. yatay):  

" BUTIA YATAY XJUBAEA , is faster and a different look to leaf-- glossy and green.

Oddly enough JXYATAY is often with a Gray/green leaf and tomem (tomentum?) leaf  , & is more problematic as a seedling".

 

So... maybe the BxJ actually has leaves resembling Jubaea more than the JxB hybrid-- go figure!  And faster growth..makes sense maybe as my Butia is growing fairly fast, and people say Jubaea is slow.   Think I'll go for the B x J hybrid-- he's out of JxB for now, and he thinks the BxJ seedlings are hardier.  Also his BxJ are less expensive.  Have you had a chance to grow both hybrids side by side for some years?  Would be neat to see how they compare.  Patrick mentioned variation in appearance AND hardiness with either cross, as is to be expected, depending on gene combinations. 

Edited January 2, 2022 by MarkbVet

[Jesse PNW]

I'm still pretty new to hybrids, but from my very limited knowledge, plants seem to trend toward the traits of the "mother".  As Patrix said, my Jubaea x B yatay has been problematic - the strap-leafs were turning brown in my growbox where all other palm species were thriving - even straight Jubaea.  I had to pull it out, I think it doesn't like high humidity combined with warmth.  I think this will turn out to be a desirable attribute for us in the PNW as our summers are so arid.  

Edited January 2, 2022 by Jesse PNW

[MarkbVet]

15 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

I'm still pretty new to hybrids, but from my very limited knowledge, plants seem to trend toward the traits of the "mother".  As Patrix said, my Jubaea x B yatay has been problematic - the strap-leafs were turning brown in my growbox where all other palm species were thriving - even straight Jubaea.  I had to pull it out, I think it doesn't like high humidity combined with warmth.  I think this will turn out to be a desirable attribute for us in the PNW as our summers are so arid.  

Agreed, let's hope so!  Some growers are getting pure Jubaea to do fine in the PNW w/o protection, a good testament to its tolerance of cool moisture.  Past growing parameters cautioned against any water on the crown/growth meristem of Jubaea, even from sprinklers, but it could be that wet crown in summer was the issue, not winter (exactly backward from my cacti/agave experience!)  

[NWpalms@206]

When I ordered I was bummed that the jub x yatay was out so I got 2 Yatay x jub, but now I’m kinda glad I did this seems like it’s a really good combo. And I can grow them side by side to see differences within the same hybrid. I just didn’t want too much butia look I have several butia already. And they’re not my absolute favorite palm, only because of the more desert look as opposed to tropical. Sounds like BYxJ made a good mix! And he wasn’t 100% sure that the 5 gal was jub x yatay, although he said he was using yatay pollen at the time. He labeled it just jub x butia and can’t remember now, reasonably it’s probably 3-5 yrs old now. And looking nice. 

[Jesse PNW]

I'm still trying to figure out Jubaeas and Butias.  I know Banana Joe Clemente says that Jubaeas are 100% hardy on SSI where he lives but Butias are temporarily hardy and will get killed every 10 or 20 years.  Unless they're in a really good microclimate.  He has videos of some big, old Butias down by the waterline somewhere that he says are a great microclimate.  

I believe the folks in Texas found Butia to be hardier than Jubaea, during Palmageddon 2021.  But of course that's a different climate, different circumstances.    And I may be wrong, that's just from sifting through hundreds of posts.  

A lot of people say that wet is a problem for Jubaea.  Some people say that wet is only a problem during the summer.  Both Butia and Jubaea originate in climates that are drier than here, from the little bit I've been able to read about them.  Some say that Butia has no problem with wet and can even tolerate standing water.  

Some people say that "If Butia were hardy where you live, you'd see Butias around you because others have tried this before".  Sure they have, but they're few and far between, and in private gardens.  Sabal minors and Rhapidophyllum hystrix are fully hardy here but I've never seen them except in dedicated palm-lovers' gardens.  I don't think people have been experimenting with palms in the PNW for very long, maybe 20-30 years?  And even then, it's mostly been commonly available palms like Trachycarpus and Chamaerops.  I don't think very many people, 30 years ago, were experimenting with things like Chamadoreas or Jubaeas or Butias.  And defintely not Hybrids.  

[MarkbVet]

18 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

I'm still trying to figure out Jubaeas and Butias.  I know Banana Joe Clemente says that Jubaeas are 100% hardy on SSI where he lives but Butias are temporarily hardy and will get killed every 10 or 20 years.  Unless they're in a really good microclimate.  He has videos of some big, old Butias down by the waterline somewhere that he says are a great microclimate.  

I believe the folks in Texas found Butia to be hardier than Jubaea, during Palmageddon 2021.  But of course that's a different climate, different circumstances.    And I may be wrong, that's just from sifting through hundreds of posts.  

A lot of people say that wet is a problem for Jubaea.  Some people say that wet is only a problem during the summer.  Both Butia and Jubaea originate in climates that are drier than here, from the little bit I've been able to read about them.  Some say that Butia has no problem with wet and can even tolerate standing water.  

Some people say that "If Butia were hardy where you live, you'd see Butias around you because others have tried this before".  Sure they have, but they're few and far between, and in private gardens.  Sabal minors and Rhapidophyllum hystrix are fully hardy here but I've never seen them except in dedicated palm-lovers' gardens.  I don't think people have been experimenting with palms in the PNW for very long, maybe 20-30 years?  And even then, it's mostly been commonly available palms like Trachycarpus and Chamaerops.  I don't think very many people, 30 years ago, were experimenting with things like Chamadoreas or Jubaeas or Butias.  And defintely not Hybrids.  

Yes, I agree...the lack of exotic palms here (that we know of) doesn't mean they can't survive.  There are likely some plants no one knows of...just like the giant yuccas and agaves in my yard, almost no one else in the area outside my neighborhood is aware of them.  Also, prior failures could have been due to lack of proper care, eg not protecting seedlings, planting in unamended heavy clay soil w/o adequate drainage, etc.  Climate change may work in our favor compared to 20 years ago.   Better cold hardy offerings in the marketplace may be available now (hell, many species weren't available to the general market in ANY cultivar 20+ years ago, and were rare/spendy if you could find them. )  We're kind of pioneering the use of these species in the PNW  (or other cold areas), hence my interest in knowing people's CURRENT experiences w/ these species.    I'm not as worried about historical lack of exotic palms in these areas. 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by MarkbVet

[MarkbVet]

Also, not sure about relative diffs in hardiness between various Butia species.    General thought out there seems to be B. yatay (pure) may be slightly less hardy then odorata and eriospatha, but not by much.  This appears to be uncertain.   It's been said that B. eriospatha may be slightly more cold AND wet tolerant than B. odorata ((it comes from a relatively cold/wet area) but it's also been said that odorata is the hardiest despite the fact that it comes from areas that aren't quite as cold/wet.  I think the jury is still out...and could be that there are variations in hardiness within each species, depending on the geographic origin within the species range, as well as genetic variation within plants in the horticulture industry.  Lots of unknowns... for me, i hope that my B. odorata isn't a semi hardy plant in our area.  Time will tell.  Years of growth between extreme cold events should increase plant hardiness at least; big palms survive more than small ones. 

[Jesse PNW]

52 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

 Better cold hardy offerings in the marketplace may be available now (hell, many species weren't available to the general market in ANY cultivar 20+ years ago, and were rare/spendy if you could find them. )  We're kind of pioneering the use of these species in the PNW....

 

 

Someday, some big-brain-nerd up here will get bit by the palm bug, and start tinkering with palm genetics.  Then cold-hardy palms will no longer be a special interest, and the average joe will be able to grow coconuts in Seattle.  Once that happens, I fear that I will lose interest in palm trees.  

[MarkbVet]

Lol!  Well said, good sir!   Ah, yes, commonplace plants are less enticing I suppose. Still,  we gotta get a kick outa these big beautiful plants. I still do with my desert plants, even though the novelty isn't as great as when I started 45 years ago!   Anyway, you may not have to worry; I'm not sure if we'll live to see the day that totally hardy exotic palms are available at Home Depot for any novice gardener to easily grow.   Someday, maybe....  it still hasn't happened w/ cacti either, but I'd LOVE to grow Saguaros or large barrel & columnar cacti up here! 

Edited January 3, 2022 by MarkbVet

[MarkbVet]

1 hour ago, NWpalms@206 said:

When I ordered I was bummed that the jub x yatay was out so I got 2 Yatay x jub, but now I’m kinda glad I did this seems like it’s a really good combo. And I can grow them side by side to see differences within the same hybrid. I just didn’t want too much butia look I have several butia already. And they’re not my absolute favorite palm, only because of the more desert look as opposed to tropical. Sounds like BYxJ made a good mix! And he wasn’t 100% sure that the 5 gal was jub x yatay, although he said he was using yatay pollen at the time. He labeled it just jub x butia and can’t remember now, reasonably it’s probably 3-5 yrs old now. And looking nice. 

The super mules sound like another great option for that really tropical/feathered look; those queen palm genes really changed the appearance (and growth rate, supposedly).   Let's hope the super mule is truly hardy in the PNW.

Edited January 3, 2022 by MarkbVet

[Jesse PNW]

@MarkbVet I mail-ordered 2 Saguaros last fall... they've lived in my windowsill and greenhouse and still haven't grown at all....  Along with a host of other cacti.  The only ones that have actually grown have been Opuntia and Cylindropuntia... and even those have been reluctant and unpredictable.  I'd love to have a desert garden but nothing seems to do well for me... Dasylirion, Joshua tree, Ocotillo, Artemisias.  I don't know if it's the climate or my lack of gardening knowledge.  

[MarkbVet]

16 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

@MarkbVet I mail-ordered 2 Saguaros last fall... they've lived in my windowsill and greenhouse and still haven't grown at all....  Along with a host of other cacti.  The only ones that have actually grown have been Opuntia and Cylindropuntia... and even those have been reluctant and unpredictable.  I'd love to have a desert garden but nothing seems to do well for me... Dasylirion, Joshua tree, Ocotillo, Artemisias.  I don't know if it's the climate or my lack of gardening knowledge.  

You should be able to get a lot of Opuntia/Cylindropuntias to do well, IF they have good drainage and 6+ hours of sun exposure  daily in summer.  I grew 2 saguaros from seed back in the 1970's, got them to  3 feet tall (in So. Oregon),  protected from rain in winter.   They died up here in Portland area.    Same with organ pipe cactus, great from seed but died in our Portland-wet area (even protected, just too damp/humid, got fungal rot).   Saguaros are likely size-limited in pots, much more than palms, as their natural root systems are shallow but very wide (spread out many meters in all directions) to pick up scant rainfall.  Dasylirion can do fine if well drained and 6+ hours of sun in summer.  Lots of yuccas can do well in PNW under same parameters, but Joshua trees are extremely finickly to transplant, even from a pot.  I bought a nice one in Las Vegas in pot, and it started dying even on the car ride home, before I got it in the ground.   One guy in Vancouver Wa  had a tall skinny Joshua tree for many years though, so IF it can get established, it may survive.   I plan on trying those in So. Oregon in the future.  Ocotillos are a no-go in this climate, I have lost them repeatedly.  Closest I came was 2 years ago, planted one up against my clinic, south exposure, with roof overhang so no winter rain on it.   It survived one winter, leafed out the next spring, but never grew, and the 2nd winter it died.   Those are very picky,, a  true low desert plant requiring high heat and dry conditions, not cold/wet tolerant at all.  Again, I'll try it once more in So. Oregon where it's hotter and so much drier than here.   Maybe it'll live there, not sure.   By contrast,  I've got an Argentinian Saguaro living just fine in the same microclimate against my clinic wall, minimal rain hits it, and now it's over 2 feet tall and 6-8 inches thick, looks very cool.  No protection other than rain shadow.   Given enough time, it can get as large as American saguaros and looks very similar.  But grows at very high elevations so can handle cold (if not wet).  Hope to plant it in open garden in So. Oregon w/o protection some day.  

Edited January 3, 2022 by MarkbVet

[NWpalms@206]

38 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

The super mules sound like another great option for that really tropical/feathered look; those queen palm genes really changed the appearance (and growth rate, supposedly).   Let's hope the super mule is truly hardy in the PNW.

That’s what I’m hoping! we will see, I have the 2 supers and they’ll go in ground this spring in a primo spot with all day sun. My place on Vashon is natural sandy loam soil. My 3 acres was logged about 40yrs ago of old growth forest so I have sandy, humus rich soil at a slight south slope. So drainage here is great too and I’m hoping that will really aid in the survival of all these palms, combined with hot summer sun here 8+ hrs a day. Shade is our problem. Our back deck/ yard has been seeing 100f in the summer hottest days. Between good drainage and summer heat I think I’ve got a good chance will all these even the Santa Catarina Queen. But that one could be a fools Hope. 

Edited January 3, 2022 by NWpalms@206

[MarkbVet]

8 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

That’s what I’m hoping! we will see, I have the 2 supers and they’ll go in ground this spring in a primo spot with all day sun. My place on Vashon is natural sandy loam soil. My 3 acres was logged about 40yrs ago of old growth forest so I have sandy, humus rich soil at a slight south slope. So drainage here is great too and I’m hoping that will really aid in the survival of these, combined with hot summer sun here 8+ hrs a day. Shade is our problem. Our back deck/ yard has been seeing 100f in the summer hottest days. Between good drainage and summer heat I think I’ve got a good chance will all these even the Santa Catarina Queen. But that one could be a fools Hope. 

Gotta have dreams...  hehe!  But overall it sounds like you'll have good luck with many palms in your situation.  Bravo!

Edited January 3, 2022 by MarkbVet

[Paradise Found]

Here is some eye candy for you guys of column cacti in WA state and a few more plants. 

[MarkbVet]

1 minute ago, Paradise Found said:

Here is some eye candy for you guys of column cacti in WA state and a few more plants. 

Nice agaves!  and cacti too  :-)  Thx for sharing!

[Paradise Found]

The garden is from Windcliff nursery, WA thats the owners home garden.  Smaller agave is blue glow hardy 25F growing happily in Olympia Wa

Edited January 3, 2022 by Paradise Found

[MarkbVet]

Here's a 7 foot tall cow tongue cactus (Opuntia engelmanii var. linguiformis) in my yard.    I also have 2 pads of the 'cows tongue' variation from a purple 'Santa Rita" prickly pear, it occurred as a sport off a normal plant.  This is likely how the original 'cows tongue' occurred (there has been debate about how it originated, originally found in wild in Texas I think).  This variation is a very rare occurrence however, and my purple cows tongue is the only one in existence, so far as I know.  If I can get it producing large enough pads I plan to sell some to a place like Cistus so it can be put on the market....purple cows tongue would be a great landscape plant for the southwest U.S.  This green cows tongue gets 10+ feet tall for me IF I provide winter support (it will break and fall in cold if not supported).

Edited January 3, 2022 by MarkbVet

[Love them palms]

52 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

The super mules sound like another great option for that really tropical/feathered look; those queen palm genes really changed the appearance (and growth rate, supposedly).   Let's hope the super mule is truly hardy in the PNW.

these  2 Butia x Jubaea x Queen are in their  3rd winter here in Mukilteo Wa Z8B .last year I did not cover one during our cold spell in Feb of 20 degrees and it did not even blink. I did cover this year because of the crazy cold but it will be ever better acclimated to this area. Hopefully they will not have any issues in the next several weeks from any damage. 

[MarkbVet]

2 minutes ago, Love them palms said:

these  2 Butia x Jubaea x Queen are in their  3rd winter here in Mukilteo Wa Z8B .last year I did not cover one during our cold spell in Feb of 20 degrees and it did not even blink. I did cover this year because of the crazy cold but it will be ever better acclimated to this area. Hopefully they will not have any issues in the next several weeks from any damage. 

Very very nice!!   They look uncovered there, with the snow all around... are you putting plastic over them part of the time?  Wonderful to see those thriving!!

[Paradise Found]

7 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

Here's a 7 foot tall cow tongue cactus (Opuntia engelmanii var. linguiformis) in my yard.    I also have 2 pads of the 'cows tongue' variation from a purple 'Santa Rita" prickly pear, it occurred as a sport off a normal plant.  This is likely how the original 'cows tongue' occurred (there has been debate about how it originated, originally found in wild in Texas I think).  This variation is a very rare occurrence however, and my purple cows tongue is the only one in existence, so far as I know.  If I can get it producing large enough pads I plan to sell some to a place like Cistus so it can be put on the market....purple cows tongue would be a great landscape plant for the southwest U.S.  This green cows tongue gets 10+ feet tall for me IF I provide winter support (it will break and fall in cold if not supported).

I have one of these but it has no thorns on it pads. Going in the ground in spring. 

[MarkbVet]

12 minutes ago, Paradise Found said:

The garden is from Windcliff nursery, WA thats the owners home garden.  Smaller agave is blue glow hardy 25F growing happily in Olympia Wa

Nice yucca rostrata...do u know what the pinnate palm is behind/to left of yucca, near house?

[Paradise Found]

It is a real rare palm I think they call it Butia. LOL

Edited January 3, 2022 by Paradise Found

[Love them palms]

1 minute ago, MarkbVet said:

Very very nice!!   They look uncovered there, with the snow all around... are you putting plastic over them part of the time?  Wonderful to see those thriving!!

no ,it's getting up into the 30,s now and future outlook looks warm enough to uncover all my guys now. 

[Chester B]

You guys are crazy.   I've removed so many deadly plants from my garden, I loved them, but they didn't love me back.  They all grew exceptionally well for me, and extremely quick.  Last year or the year before I took out a couple of giant green bins of cacti.  The hairs had a way of migrating all over my yard and into me.  I couldn't tell you what I had so many were unknown.  One was a prickly pear type with huge pads, they grew so quickly that I even had woody trunks on them.  I had a longer slender "pear type", a spineless one and and a small padded floppy one that grew more like ground cover.  Ring a bell?

All I have left are the usual assortment of Yuccas and a Sharkskin or Sharkskin shoes agave that has been sending out pups like mad.  Very wet tolerant for sure.

I did see this one Youtube video a while back of a guy in England with a Saguaro looking cactus outside that was almost two stories tall - any idea what it could've been?

[MarkbVet]

1 minute ago, Paradise Found said:

I have one of these but it has no thorns on it pads. Going in the ground in spring. 

Nice... if it's the same plant, the lack of thorns can be individual variation, OR sun exposure... many Opuntias have variable spination with diff. sun levels; hotter/longer sun exposure = more spination.

[Love them palms]

1 minute ago, Chester B said:

You guys are crazy.   I've removed so many deadly plants from my garden, I loved them, but they didn't love me back.  They all grew exceptionally well for me, and extremely quick.  Last year or the year before I took out a couple of giant green bins of cacti.  The hairs had a way of migrating all over my yard and into me.  I couldn't tell you what I had so many were unknown.  One was a prickly pear type with huge pads, they grew so quickly that I even had woody trunks on them.  I had a longer slender "pear type", a spineless one and and a small padded floppy one that grew more like ground cover.  Ring a bell?

All I have left are the usual assortment of Yuccas and a Sharkskin or Sharkskin shoes agave that has been sending out pups like mad.  Very wet tolerant for sure.

I did see this one Youtube video a while back of a guy in England with a Saguaro looking cactus outside that was almost two stories tall - any idea what it could've been?

all my cactus is covered in snow. Can't wait for it to come back 

[Paradise Found]

It a species that has no thorns. I got the name but can't remember it. 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Paradise Found

[MarkbVet]

1 minute ago, Chester B said:

You guys are crazy.   I've removed so many deadly plants from my garden, I loved them, but they didn't love me back.  They all grew exceptionally well for me, and extremely quick.  Last year or the year before I took out a couple of giant green bins of cacti.  The hairs had a way of migrating all over my yard and into me.  I couldn't tell you what I had so many were unknown.  One was a prickly pear type with huge pads, they grew so quickly that I even had woody trunks on them.  I had a longer slender "pear type", a spineless one and and a small padded floppy one that grew more like ground cover.  Ring a bell?

All I have left are the usual assortment of Yuccas and a Sharkskin or Sharkskin shoes agave that has been sending out pups like mad.  Very wet tolerant for sure.

I did see this one Youtube video a while back of a guy in England with a Saguaro looking cactus outside that was almost two stories tall - any idea what it could've been?

Big pad prickly pear= likely Opuntia engelmanii, though a very large cultivar of O. phaecantha is possible.  The floppy one sounds like O. humifusa (O. compressa).  The saguaro like one may be an  Argentinian saguaro (Trichocereus terscheckii or Echinopsis terscheckii),  as it's hardier than american saguaro if not too wet in winter. 

[Paradise Found]

13 minutes ago, Love them palms said:

these  2 Butia x Jubaea x Queen are in their  3rd winter here in Mukilteo Wa Z8B .last year I did not cover one during our cold spell in Feb of 20 degrees and it did not even blink. I did cover this year because of the crazy cold but it will be ever better acclimated to this area. Hopefully they will not have any issues in the next several weeks from any damage. 

They are looking good so far and thanks for sharing, I uncovered all mine this morning it 42F out and raining hard. Snow Snow Go Away.

[MarkbVet]

8 minutes ago, Paradise Found said:

It is a real rare palm I think they call it Butia. LOL

I'm sorry, I meant palmate palm (it does look palmate, just misspoke)... so not Butia lol.

[Jesse PNW]

37 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

 I grew 2 saguaros from seed back in the 1970's, got them to  3 feet tall (in So. Oregon),  protected from rain in winter.  

How were you growing things in the 1970s?  Your profile pic looks like you're younger than me and i'm 37!  

[Paradise Found]

1 minute ago, MarkbVet said:

I'm sorry, I meant palmate palm (it does look palmate, just misspoke)... so not Butia lol.

The only other palms I saw was chamearops and trachycarpus. 

[Chester B]

Just now, Paradise Found said:

The only other palms I saw was chamearops and trachycarpus. 

Yeah I don't think Dan is into palms as much as other plants.  I've seen lots of pictures of his garden and they are just the usual palms.

[MarkbVet]

1 minute ago, Jesse PNW said:

How were you growing things in the 1970s?  Your profile pic looks like you're younger than me and i'm 37!  

yeah I get that a lot...THANK YOU btw.  When you get to be my age,  any youthful comments are appreciated!  That is a picture taken on vacation in San Antonio on the riverwalk, this past summer.   I'm 61.  

[Chester B]

6 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

Big pad prickly pear= likely Opuntia engelmanii, though a very large cultivar of O. phaecantha is possible.  The floppy one sounds like O. humifusa (O. compressa).  The saguaro like one may be an  Argentinian saguaro (Trichocereus terscheckii or Echinopsis terscheckii),  as it's hardier than american saguaro if not too wet in winter. 

I looked up these ones, they were very similar in appearance thanks.

I was growing Joshua trees from seed, but they all eventually faded away after a couple years.