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Syagrus romanzoffiana var santa catarina in pnw?


Trustandi
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Hi all,

I found a seller on eBay offering seeds of Syagrus romanzoffiana var santa catarina. Have you had any experience growing them here?  Is it too finicky with the heat requirement here?

Thanks.

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I wouldn't hold my breath, esp. for any eBay seller I don't know & trust. Supposedly, var. santa catarina has greater cold hardiness than standard queens but that claim has been disputed since before I ever got into palms. And "greater cold hardiness" does not translate into "wants less heat." Queens like lots of heat and are water and fertilizer hogs. My bet is those seeds are typical garden variety queen seeds and the seller is tossing out propaganda to separate himself from the crowds peddling their typical queen seeds - and he's probably charging a premium price.

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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I searched for his listing and he has a photo of slender trunk ones like the ones near the ocean in Santa Catarina.  Nowhere in his listing does he mention they were collected from the more cold  hardy mountain specimens.

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Real Santa Catarina Queens are a lot more cold hardy. I have them in my garden. They are a lot more fat in trunk. And they do not grow as fast as regular Queens. 

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5 minutes ago, Cikas said:

Real Santa Catarina Queens are a lot more cold hardy. I have them in my garden. They are a lot more fat in trunk. And they do not grow as fast as regular Queens. 

Can you post a picture or describe the seeds. From what I have read the seeds are smaller and more round then normal queen seeds. 

 

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I remember Kelen posting some photo's of huge syagrus that he said are very cold hardy & take the teens F every year.

congresso_nova_prata_013.jpg

Edited by Laaz
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It's a shame that these aren't being propagated more in the states. I tried getting one of the Uruguayan ones from Woodlanders, but they sold out extremely quickly.  I wouldn't grow these anywhere colder than a warm 8b, but they would be a nice strain for areas like Houston, New Orleans and north Florida that are warm 9a with rare severe dips. If anyone wants to hook me up I promise that one I'll do my best to distribute them to the community. :D

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14 minutes ago, necturus said:

It's a shame that these aren't being propagated more in the states. I tried getting one of the Uruguayan ones from Woodlanders, but they sold out extremely quickly.  I wouldn't grow these anywhere colder than a warm 8b, but they would be a nice strain for areas like Houston, New Orleans and north Florida that are warm 9a with rare severe dips. If anyone wants to hook me up I promise that one I'll do my best to distribute them to the community. :D

The queen that Laaz posted is huge by comparison to the queens found in the SE that I have seen. No idea why no one has tried to distribute them in the states. They are easy to obtain in the UK for instance. Go figure :blink:

 

Edit:

You can see a nice well grown trachy in the background as well...

Edited by RJ
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11 minutes ago, RJ said:

The queen that Laaz posted is huge by comparison to the queens found in the SE that I have seen. No idea why no one has tried to distribute them in the states. They are easy to obtain in the UK for instance. Go figure :blink:

I would love to see Queens that massive here in the states =)

T J 

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5 hours ago, RJ said:

Can you post a picture or describe the seeds. From what I have read the seeds are smaller and more round then normal queen seeds. 

 

I bought them from this Shop. They have photos of old specimens. https://mypalmshop.com/product/Syagrus-romanzoffiana-sp.-'Santa-Catarina' I can confirm from my own experience that they are more cold hardy than regular Queens 

Edited by Cikas
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7 minutes ago, Cikas said:

I bought them from this Shop. They have photos of old specimens. https://mypalmshop.com/product/Syagrus-romanzoffiana-sp.-'Santa-Catarina' I can confirm from my own experience that they are more cold hardy than regular Queens 

Yes that is where I have seen them, I thought maybe you had a fruiting specimen. From my understanding the gentleman (Nigel)? who runs that nursery exported seed from the cold region in Brazil where this ecotype of Queen Palms grow. 

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There was also a post from Pindo a forum member her that lives in a region of Argentine that gets quite cold as well. He tried to send me seeds, but customs refused them & sent them back...

 

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That is a beautiful pic. I wish we could get some seeds. I wouldn't mind trying to grow it here. 

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56 minutes ago, Laaz said:

There was also a post from Pindo a forum member her that lives in a region of Argentine that gets quite cold as well. He tried to send me seeds, but customs refused them & sent them back...

 

That's unfortunate. Perhaps one of us should obtain a small seed import permit. It's my understanding they aren't too difficult to obtain. 

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Seeds from the mountain form are difficult to find. I grew 200 of the Santa Catarina mountain form and sold out of them.  I haven't been able to find a new seed source in four years.

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1 hour ago, Steve in Florida said:

Seeds from the mountain form are difficult to find. I grew 200 of the Santa Catarina mountain form and sold out of them.  I haven't been able to find a new seed source in four years.

You've seen the seed at least, can you confirm how they differed from "standard" queen seeds? I have some var Litoralis seeds but they look pretty standard to me. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, RJ said:

You've seen the seed at least, can you confirm how they differed from "standard" queen seeds? I have some var Litoralis seeds but they look pretty standard to me. 

 

 

Smaller with a round end.

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My original info appears out of date but I'm glad to be updated. Still, I believe you should be leery of any S.r. seeds coming out of FL and most US locations unless you absolutely trust the source because they are probably standard S.r. There are many unethical and/or ignorant seed sellers out there. And bear in mind that all queens in FL are likely of standard parentage (they are Class II invasives here and are everywhere). Your best chance of getting pure Santa Catarina seeds is to source them from native habitat if you can. As you live in Washington State you may be able to pull that off. As a rule, US Customs is very strict on seed imports from Central and South America. Here in FL they intercept and destroy them then send a threatening letter to recipients. I was threatened with prosecution after a palm friend in Costa Rica sent me some palm seeds from his yard 10 years ago. I haven't bought or requested any plant material from that part of the world since. However, perhaps seeds sent to the PNW might squeak through without seizure - I really don't know.

Another thing you could do and which I did back in 2009 was to apply for a permit (good for 3 years) to import small lots of seeds. You can do that online on a Government website at no cost and you will receive the permit and paperwork for you and your supplier to fill out. The problem for me was after I jumped through all the hoops all seeds were to be delivered to Miami for inspection after which I could drive 3 hours over and back to retrieve them. Or I could establish an account with Fed Ex to have them shipped. Or I could give US Custom a credit card # (?!?!?!) to which to charge shipping. No way was I doing any of that so I never used my permit and it expired in 2012.

Depending on where the nearest US Customs Inspection Office is located you might live close enough to use a Small Lot Seed Import Permit. Or maybe your customs location is less diligent and will let a packet of palm seeds slip through. After all, how many people in the PNW bring in palms seeds from South America?

Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

However, perhaps seeds sent to the PNW might squeak through without seizure

Sadly no. I ordered some seeds from Europe and they were confiscated and replaced with a nasty letter from US customs.  So now I'm afraid to buy anything outside of the US.

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The "Santa Catarina" Queens may be a little more cold hardy than regular Queens but they still need decent summer heat to actually grow. Several years ago a UK nursery imported lots & no one had any success with them.

Malta - USDA Zone 11a

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  • 3 months later...
  • 3 months later...
On 5/20/2019 at 8:07 PM, Cikas said:

I bought them from this Shop. They have photos of old specimens. https://mypalmshop.com/product/Syagrus-romanzoffiana-sp.-'Santa-Catarina' I can confirm from my own experience that they are more cold hardy than regular Queens 

Hi, i am thinking to buy one of them too. But do you know if the "Santa Catarina" variety is actually the same with "Syagrus Litoralis" / "Silver Queen"? I don't really like Litoralis as a shorter plant. 

Edited by Happypalm
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2 hours ago, Happypalm said:

Hi, i am thinking to buy one of them too. But do you know if the "Santa Catarina" variety is actually the same with "Syagrus Litoralis" / "Silver Queen"? I don't really like Litoralis as a shorter plant. 

No they are different. I think that Litoralis is basically just regular Queen. 

Santa Catarina is indeed different. A lot more robust and cold hardy. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 5/17/2019 at 9:32 PM, Trustandi said:

Hi all,

I found a seller on eBay offering seeds of Syagrus romanzoffiana var santa catarina. Have you had any experience growing them here?  Is it too finicky with the heat requirement here?

Thanks.

It's still early days, but I went through the hoops and bought some Santa Catarina Queen seeds from Nigel to propagate for my nursery. I'm in Seattle and will probably try planting out a few for kicks. I'd be happy to hook you up with a seedling if you want to try along with me, but I only have about 50 seedlings sprouted so far.

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They are not anymore cold hardy. Go to science. A syagrus is a syagrus period. If they are saying provenance it is bs. Regardless if they are it is 1 degree f at best. Geno type. They are selling snake oil. Every few years you see them saying it.

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Correct me if I am wrong but Santa Catrina area is protected and palms or seeds should not be exported. Same with butia erispotha. Anyone want to shed some light on that?

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On 2/29/2020 at 12:49 AM, ErikSJI said:

They are not anymore cold hardy. Go to science. A syagrus is a syagrus period. If they are saying provenance it is bs. Regardless if they are it is 1 degree f at best. Geno type. They are selling snake oil. Every few years you see them saying it.

They are most definitely more cold hardy. At least they are in my garden. I have both. And they do not look like regular Queens and they are native to the coldest climate region where Queens are native. 

 

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On 5/18/2019 at 4:32 PM, Trustandi said:

Have you had any experience growing them here?  Is it too finicky with the heat requirement here?

What are your temperature stats? 

Looking at the Wikipedia climate data compared to here, your average highs are slightly higher in summer and lower in winter than here, your average lows are similar year round. But your record lows are the biggest cause for concern.

Below is a couple of pictures of some of my Queens which are flourishing in our 'cool summer' climate. Note that the missing lower fronds snapped in a windstorm back in October, these would be otherwise healthy green-yellowing fronds.

Our winters are borderline here, with temps regularly below 32f, down to around 24f at least once per winter,  and summers are cool compared to a continental US summer with average daily highs around 74f. Winter results in frond yellowing and some leaflet burning, but surprisingly, the yellowy fronds seem to regain their green when spring comes around.

They certainly are absolute water and fertiliser hogs, but you can still get a very healthy and good looking (albeit slower growing) Queen in a cooler summer climate, providing you get abundant sunshine. I heavily fertilise twice per season, and then water every 2-3 days with two 9L buckets of water splashed right around the roots. 'Flooding' would be an accurate description.

I have noticed huge differences in Queens from different nurseries - both in their speed of growth, leaflet positioning and stiffness, and also depth of colour. Maybe this is to do with the specific variety - but they were all advertised as simply Syagrus Romanzoffiana (don't think 'Parana' even exists as an option in NZ even though it could be there).

I would definitely suggest buying trunking Queens. Seedlings would perish with one winter here, due to the frequency and frigidness of ground frosts through winter.

Q1.thumb.jpg.3f91d29e14f3dba7b5cae898066be918.jpg

Q2.thumb.jpg.49330f4069975ca78e56d4d741abcb7f.jpg

Q3.thumb.jpg.ecbc7747342340b28da7f3aba06c43bd.jpg

Q4.thumb.jpg.a9213ce34455aabd90d22635e25ad280.jpg

 

 

Edited by sipalms
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1 hour ago, sipalms said:

Our winters are borderline here, with temps regularly below 32f, down to around 24f at least once per winter,  and summers are cool compared to a continental US summer with average daily highs around 74f. Winter results in frond yellowing and some leaflet burning, but surprisingly, the yellowy fronds seem to regain their green when spring comes around.

They certainly are absolute water and fertiliser hogs, but you can still get a very healthy and good looking (albeit slower growing) Queen in a cooler summer climate, providing you get abundant sunshine. I heavily fertilise twice per season, and then water every 2-3 days with two 9L buckets of water splashed right around the roots. 'Flooding' would be an accurate description.

Sounds very similar to the PNW, except we're much warmer in the summer, with little to no rain.  Winters are usually very gray and very wet - I think this combo is the issue for the queens.  Is your precipitation more evenly spread throughout the year?  

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30 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Sounds very similar to the PNW, except we're much warmer in the summer, with little to no rain.  Winters are usually very gray and very wet - I think this combo is the issue for the queens.  Is your precipitation more evenly spread throughout the year?  

What is your average annual rainfall?

Ours is approximately 650mm (25-26") with very very little over summer. This summer has been a drought like most of New Zealand. Most of our rainfall falls autumn and early winter. Winters tend to be settled and often sunny with bouts of short lived stormy weather.

You're also around 5 degrees further from the equator to here, so like discussions with @UK_Palms, this could be a factor. Rainy/cloudy/cool winters definitely won't help. As mentioned above, mine yellow a bit over the winter months, probably down to lack of chlorophyll-producing temperature and sunlight levels/hours.

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Average rainfall totals are 36"/year.  Nov - Jan being the rainiest time.  By spring there is moss growing everywhere it's so damp in the winter but then so dry in the summer.  Our minimum temps don't dictate what we can grow here, its the cool/wet combo that likes to kill many palms.  CIDP/Washingtonia/Brahea can do well if kept dry during winter with no additional protection for cold.

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1 hour ago, Chester B said:

Average rainfall totals are 36"/year.  Nov - Jan being the rainiest time.  By spring there is moss growing everywhere it's so damp in the winter but then so dry in the summer.  Our minimum temps don't dictate what we can grow here, its the cool/wet combo that likes to kill many palms.  CIDP/Washingtonia/Brahea can do well if kept dry during winter with no additional protection for cold.

Interesting. I don't really know how Queens go with really damp/mossy cool weather. You mention about record lows not being a problem - what are your lows for say the last decade?

The record historical low here is 19.5f in 1975, but in the last decade it is around 23f depending on location within the city. This is enough to kill a young or overly exposed Queen palm in a damp/cold spot... but not enough to kill most around the city, of which there are several fully trunking specimens well over 18ft tall.

My best advice (I have no experience in USA though!) would be to forget starting a so called 'Parana' from seed - you'll be waiting decades for it to look the part... but get a large one with say 6 good rings, in healthy condition, shipped up from Cali, and let it settle in. Big plants grow just that much better than babies.

Plant it in late autumn/fall (yes you read that right!) - this is what I have done. It makes you nervous about the first winter, but you're guaranteed so much more growth the first summer as the roots naturally take off as the weather warms up. If you plant in a cold climate in spring, then the roots that had just started to grow will get transplant shock and not start to be established until the end of the season. When you plant in the fall, the roots have already done their job and are going sleepy so not as bothered by transplantation. I've done Queen palm plantings in the cold late May (your November) and in warm late October (your April) and the difference in the first season is phenomenal. The autumn one looked tatty by the end of winter but fully replenished its crown by the end of summer, yet the spring one hardly pushed a single frond all summer and has only just started to pick up pace in its second summer.

Edited by sipalms
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