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What other palms can grow in the Puget sound.area


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Doing research and taking advice from other growers, the only palms that come up is trachycarpus,butia and their hybrids, jubaea and their hybrids ,sabals,Mediterranean fan palms,mule palms, washingtonia filibusta ( maybe).but what I am looking for is a phoenix style looking tree that has a fighting chance in our 8B climate. We get the wet winters and it dont get too cold 15 is usually normal for the coldest min but doesn't do that much (except this year,alot of cold and snow) we get pretty warm summers lately. I'm not into trachycarpus cause everybody and their dog have them here.I have a sabal riverside, butia x jubaea already and getting a couple of filibusta soon, any one have any recommendations for the Phoenix  looking style of palm to make my yard look unique?

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Maybe Phoenix canariensis? Not sure how well they’re take PNW winters though. 

Zone 8a Greenville, NC 

Zone 8b/9a Bluffton, SC

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8 hours ago, NC_Palms said:

Maybe Phoenix canariensis? Not sure how well they’re take PNW winters though. 

I have 2 in pots that I want to plant In the backyard once  I get done doing some remodeling in the backyard that faces south blocking the north winds during winter, Banana Joe (don't know if you are familiar with him) actually has a YouTube video showing a nice sized Phoenix canariensis growing in Vancouver BC. so it could be possible with a little protection during winter 

 

 

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I think the your single limiting factor is going to be your lack of heat duration. It's just going to make a pretty slow growing palm like a CIDP even more lethargic. 

 

 

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I've had really good success with Butia x Queen and Jubaea x Butia. The great thing about hybrids they all don't look the same.  Any Jubaea hybrid will outgrow any phoenix palm here but you should get a few years of enjoyment out of a phoenix palm. 

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Didn't the PNW just have a brutally cold winter with lows well into the single digits and weeks of snow? That for sure would be suicide for a CIDP. 

Mine have endured a day or two of snow the previous winter and lows down to 12F (my lowest temp in 20 years), but those arctic blasts were short in duration, like 48 hours at most. Then it warms up. But if you're having a week plus of polar weather with back to back lows of 10F, or lower, and snow cover for 1-2 weeks, that would for sure kill any Phoenix palm. 

I think it's the proximity to Canada, and it's large landmass, that allows the big cold fronts to move in and take hold for long periods. Whereas I am on an island, surrounded by water, which moderates my temperatures year-round and when any cold, dry winter airmasses do make it here from continental Europe, they are quickly displaced by the wet, mild Atlantic weather. 

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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CIDPs are hot desert palms. They won't do well in areas lack high heat such as PNW. They also don't do well in hot areas with high humidity, such as FL. And areas with low heat and high humidity (PNW) just double their troubles. P. sylvestris is much more suited to areas of heat and high humidity (FL) but I'm unsure how those will grow in cool, humid areas either. Myself, I find P. sylvestris a much more elegant, attractive palm but maybe that's because CIDPS in FL look so wretched and die prematurely.

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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3 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Didn't the PNW just have a brutally cold winter with lows well into the single digits and weeks of snow? That for sure would be suicide for a CIDP. 

Mine have endured a day or two of snow the previous winter and lows down to 12F (my lowest temp in 20 years), but those arctic blasts were short in duration, like 48 hours at most. Then it warms up. But if you're having a week plus of polar weather with back to back lows of 10F, or lower, and snow cover for 1-2 weeks, that would for sure kill any Phoenix palm. 

I think it's the proximity to Canada, and it's large landmass, that allows the big cold fronts to move in and take hold for long periods. Whereas I am on an island, surrounded by water, which moderates my temperatures year-round and when any cold, dry winter airmasses do make it here from continental Europe, they are quickly displaced by the wet, mild Atlantic weather. 

Seattle low was 17F mine was 19F and it hasn't been this cold for several years. Outlining areas in really cold pockets away from water and higher elevations did see some single and teens, lows.  Olympia airport reported a low of 5F the night I had 19F. LOL! Record snowfall in February along with long cold spell was hard on some exotics but will survive.  

Pheonix palms are a real pain when you have to remove one!  

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13 minutes ago, Palm crazy said:

Seattle low was 17F mine was 19F and it hasn't been this cold for several years. Outlining areas in really cold pockets away from water and higher elevations did see some single and teens, lows.  Olympia airport reported a low of 5F the night I had 19F. LOL! Record snowfall in February along with long cold spell was hard on some exotics but will survive.  

Pheonix palms are a real pain when you have to remove one!  

I remember seeing at least one person on here, possibly two people, from Washington/Oregon, saying they had something like 5F and 8F lows on back to back nights. With daytime highs of like 28F. They may possibly have been from the Olympia area. And that was in conjunction of like 10 days straight with snow cover. 

My point is that no Phoenix species is going to survive that. Although it seems you have a bit a microclimate which certainly help you in your location. My low this year was only 2F more than you at 21F. Although I didn't experience any measurable snowfall this winter. 

There is no damage to any of my Phoenix's (CIDP, Dacty, Sylvestris & Theophrast). One of my Butia's has suffered bad this winter though, from something. Possibly wet/cold.  

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Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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50 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

CIDPs are hot desert palms. They won't do well in areas lack high heat such as PNW. They also don't do well in hot areas with high humidity, such as FL. And areas with low heat and high humidity (PNW) just double their troubles. P. sylvestris is much more suited to areas of heat and high humidity (FL) but I'm unsure how those will grow in cool, humid areas either. Myself, I find P. sylvestris a much more elegant, attractive palm but maybe that's because CIDPS in FL look so wretched and die prematurely.

I am growing CIDP, Dacty, Sylvestris and Theophrasti in my garden. 

The Sylvestris is certainly the fastest growing of the 4 types and is a rocket during the warmer, summer months. Growing about 3 x as fast as the CIDP and 5 x as fast as the Dacty & Theo. But growth almost totally stops on all the Phoenix's from December - March here.

Sylvestris is also very good at handling wet cold in my climate and a 4 foot specimen survived 12F unprotected the previous winter, with quite a bit of snow. Damage was minimal with just minor bronzing to frond tips. It was a similar story with the Dacty. But one of my two CIDP's were defoliated. Theophrasti had quite a bit more bronzing to it's fronds, but kept its spear. 

Both Dacty and Sylvestris however suffered problems with wet soil and excessive rainfall during the wet spring period. Both had disease/necrosis damage to the fronds last April after 1-2 weeks of continuous rain. CIDP and Theophrasti did not suffer from this problem.  

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Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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9 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

One of my Butia's has suffered bad this winter though, from something. Possibly wet/cold.  

Aren't your butia in pots though? 

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Just now, RJ said:

Aren't your butia in pots though? 

Yeah, my Butia is in a pot. I know that could be where the problem lies. 

But I also have Jubaea, CIDP, Fortunei etc, all in pots and they are completely fine. And isn't Butia Odorata supposed to be a palm type that does pretty well in pots, and specifically pots with minimal space. I have seen huge, healthy specimens in pretty small small pots (for the palm's size). 

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I am growing CIDP, Dacty, Sylvestris and Theophrasti in my garden. 

The Sylvestris is certainly the fastest growing of the 4 types and is a rocket during the warmer, summer months. Growing about 3 x as fast as the CIDP and 5 x as fast as the Dacty & Theo. But growth almost totally stops on all the Phoenix's from December - March here.

Sylvestris is also very good at handling wet cold in my climate and a 4 foot specimen survived 12F unprotected the previous winter, with quite a bit of snow. Damage was minimal with just minor bronzing to frond tips. It was a similar story with the Dacty. But one of my two CIDP's were defoliated. Theophrasti had quite a bit more bronzing to it's fronds, but kept its spear. 

Both Dacty and Sylvestris however suffered problems with wet soil and excessive rainfall during the wet spring period. Both had disease/necrosis damage to the fronds last April after 1-2 weeks of continuous rain. CIDP and Theophrasti did not suffer from this problem.  

I had one Sylvester  outside it was about 2 ft that I planted  in sept. When the snow and cold came my way  I put a plastic garbage bag over it ( stupid mistake) .pulled off the bag when the coast was clear and was tan lol except for the base of the spear, the was a bit of green but learned my lesson about plastic and plants in the cold.hopefully it will recover ,might just replace it with a JxBxS if I can ever find one online

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2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Sylvestris is also very good at handling wet cold in my climate and a 4 foot specimen survived 12F unprotected the previous winter, with quite a bit of snow. Damage was minimal with just minor bronzing to frond tips. It was a similar story with the Dacty. But one of my two CIDP's were defoliated.

Not sure what mystery specimen you have, but P. Sylvestris will never-ever survive 12F. Even in the Southeastern US 8b, where it RARELY gets that low, they are not very long term survivors and dying at a few degrees above 12F.  12F is even critical for Butia, let alone Sylvestris.

Edited by Estlander
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Here two Butia palms in my garden photo taken this evening. Will be in the low 70's tomorrow. 

I did talk about the cold spell at the Olympia airport back in February, like I do every winter, lol.  I am the only one from Olympia on this board. :D

Butia odorata and Jubea x Butia.  Not the biggest but both did ok this winter.

DSC_0013.JPG

DSC_0015.JPG

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2 minutes ago, Estlander said:

Not sure what mystery specimen you have, but P. Sylvestris will never-ever survive 12F. Even in the Southeastern US 8b, where it RARELY gets that low, they are not very long term survivors and dying at a few degrees above 12F.  12F is even critical for Butia, let alone Sylvestris.

Yeah but that's 12F for about an hour. All my days warm up to around 34-35F with it never staying below freezing for 24 hours or anything like that. So it's a bit different to say having a low of 12F and a high of 25F. 

In the southeastern US you also have far more humidity, rain and snow. Usually here when it is real cold, it is from a dry airmass coming off the European mainland and it isn't accompanied with precipitation/snow.

It could also be that my Sylvestris went dormant over winter, as we don't usually get warm/mild spells which the southeast US alternates between in winter. Like you have highs of 65F one week in January, then highs of 25-30F the next week and snow, then back to 65F again. Whereas my highs are always around the 45F mark consistently in Jan/Feb. So the palm remains dormant and isn't tricked into actively growing. That seems to be when most damage is incurred. 

There's definitely got to be certain factors at play. CIDP's aren't supposed to be hardy below 15F, yet these specimens remained undamaged in my town during that 12F cold spell in Feb 2018. Much like my Sylvestris. 

 

Palms_Guildford.jpg

CIDP_Guildford.jpg

Palms_Guildford_2.jpg

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37 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Yeah but that's 12F for about an hour. All my days warm up to around 34-35F with it never staying below freezing for 24 hours or anything like that. So it's a bit different to say having a low of 12F and a high of 25F. 

In the southeastern US you also have far more humidity, rain and snow. Usually here when it is real cold, it is from a dry airmass coming off the European mainland and it isn't accompanied with precipitation/snow.

It could also be that my Sylvestris went dormant over winter, as we don't usually get warm/mild spells which the southeast US alternates between in winter. Like you have highs of 65F one week in January, then highs of 25-30F the next week and snow, then back to 65F again. Whereas my highs are always around the 45F mark consistently in Jan/Feb. So the palm remains dormant and isn't tricked into actively growing. That seems to be when most damage is incurred. 

There's definitely got to be certain factors at play. CIDP's aren't supposed to be hardy below 15F, yet these specimens remained undamaged in my town during that 12F cold spell in Feb 2018. Much like my Sylvestris.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, it's certainly good to hear stories of palms surviving these lows. Just find it incredible Sylvestris surviving 12F, no matter what the humidity level. 12F seems like too much below it's known cold tolerance. Duration is certainly a very important factor too, of course. P. Canariensis and P. Dactylifera are both hardier that Sylvestris. I'm certain those Canary palms in your pics being so close to a brick building stayed above 12F .

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13 hours ago, Estlander said:

Don't get me wrong, it's certainly good to hear stories of palms surviving these lows. Just find it incredible Sylvestris surviving 12F, no matter what the humidity level. 12F seems like too much below it's known cold tolerance. Duration is certainly a very important factor too, of course. P. Canariensis and P. Dactylifera are both hardier that Sylvestris. I'm certain those Canary palms in your pics being so close to a brick building stayed above 12F .

Yeah you're almost certainly right there. Those CIDP's wouldn't have seen 12F like I did, out in the country. They are right in the middle of town and close to building as you say, although they would have almost certainly dealt with 15F and snow, with temps below freezing for 48 hours, which was a one in 20 year event.

Off the back of my own observations, I would say that Sylvestris is hardier than CIDP. But clearly this isn't the case, as it has been proven. But as I said, there must be some variables at play as to why my Sylvestris didn't get damaged or killed off. I am also suspicious that it could in fact be a Sylvestris hybrid with either CIDP, Dacty or Rupicola. Even still, that doesn't explain how it survived, when I lost one of my two CIDP's during that same cold spell. I guess some things you just can't explain. 

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Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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18 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I am growing CIDP, Dacty, Sylvestris and Theophrasti in my garden. 

The Sylvestris is certainly the fastest growing of the 4 types and is a rocket during the warmer, summer months. Growing about 3 x as fast as the CIDP and 5 x as fast as the Dacty & Theo. But growth almost totally stops on all the Phoenix's from December - March here.

Sylvestris is also very good at handling wet cold in my climate and a 4 foot specimen survived 12F unprotected the previous winter, with quite a bit of snow. Damage was minimal with just minor bronzing to frond tips. It was a similar story with the Dacty. But one of my two CIDP's were defoliated. Theophrasti had quite a bit more bronzing to it's fronds, but kept its spear. 

Both Dacty and Sylvestris however suffered problems with wet soil and excessive rainfall during the wet spring period. Both had disease/necrosis damage to the fronds last April after 1-2 weeks of continuous rain. CIDP and Theophrasti did not suffer from this problem.  

I do have 2 theo seedlings and 10 zahidi date palm seedlings that I am now growing in the house. Wont be ready for planting outdoors for couple of years,I was told by someone that these ones could have a better chance of survival in the PNW with some winter protection 

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1 minute ago, Love them palms said:

I do have 2 theo seedlings and 10 zahidi date palm seedlings that I am now growing in the house. Wont be ready for planting outdoors for couple of years,I was told by someone that these ones could have a better chance of survival in the PNW with some winter protection 

I've just checked your climate and temperature wise, you are identical to my location. Almost to a tee actually. With the exception that you get about 15-20 inches more rain than me. And about 4 x as much rain as me in winter, which could be a problem for palms. Especially palms suited to dry, desert environments like Dactylifera. So wet-cold could be a serious issue in your location. You also have a record low of 0F compared to my record low of 10F. Your lows are also a bit colder than mine as well, by a few degrees. 

I am quite sceptical that true date palm (Dactylifera) will survive in your climate. Even in my climate, which is both drier and not quite as cold as you in winter, I still have to protect my Dacty during the coldest spells of winter. And I have had problems with wet-cold in March/April when we usually get a lot of rain and the temps are still low. I don't think I would be able to grow Dacty in my climate without some kind of protection.

Theophrasti should do alright in your climate, providing you don't get any lows below 15-20F. Given that your record low if 0F, there's no way that you can consider Theophrasti a long term palm in your climate though. Even in my climate, they could get whacked off by a severe polar vortex, which usually occurs once every decade or so.

It's easy to protect palms when they are young, but once they get to a certain size it becomes impossible. You just have to leave them and hope they survive, which often isn't the case. Fortunately my CIDP came through this winter unscathed, in a pot, on my patio. It's too big to move inside and protecting it with anything other than bubble wrap around the pot, is too awkward. Just bear these things in mind when it comes to planting them out.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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39 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

I've just checked your climate and temperature wise, you are identical to my location. Almost to a tee actually. With the exception that you get about 15-20 inches more rain than me. And about 4 x as much rain as me in winter, which could be a problem for palms. Especially palms suited to dry, desert environments like Dactylifera. So wet-cold could be a serious issue in your location. You also have a record low of 0F compared to my record low of 10F. Your lows are also a bit colder than mine as well, by a few degrees. 

I am quite sceptical that true date palm (Dactylifera) will survive in your climate. Even in my climate, which is both drier and not quite as cold as you in winter, I still have to protect my Dacty during the coldest spells of winter. And I have had problems with wet-cold in March/April when we usually get a lot of rain and the temps are still low. I don't think I would be able to grow Dacty in my climate without some kind of protection.

Theophrasti should do alright in your climate, providing you don't get any lows below 15-20F. Given that your record low if 0F, there's no way that you can consider Theophrasti a long term palm in your climate though. Even in my climate, they could get whacked off by a severe polar vortex, which usually occurs once every decade or so.

It's easy to protect palms when they are young, but once they get to a certain size it becomes impossible. You just have to leave them and hope they survive, which often isn't the case. Fortunately my CIDP came through this winter unscathed, in a pot, on my patio. It's too big to move inside and protecting it with anything other than bubble wrap around the pot, is too awkward. Just bear these things in mind when it comes to planting them out.

Our normal lows are about 17f - 20f that 0F was a way time long ago event-I live close to the Puget sound, I can see it from my back deck. (other than this winter and 2008 which were pretty  bruta)l the lows where I live stay around 19f and above. The summers here get pretty darn warm here too.if any thing I would be planting the CIPDs that I have in the back yard  Which is facing South. Would probly plant them pretty close to the house Which is a 2 level so with a little TLC they would have a better chance of survival And the Theos and zahidi date palms will be in pots( probably sell a few) for a while.the theo's would probably have the better chance of survival here I don't know what to do with the  zahidi date palm.my main trees will be jubaea hybrids and Butia hybrids with a couple of sabal riverside and washingtonia Filibusta and a robusta 

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19 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I am growing CIDP, Dacty, Sylvestris and Theophrasti in my garden.

Ben, you seem to be fairly close to the coast and likely have some high humidity (maybe not as bad as the southeast USA) especially after 1-2 weeks of continuous rain like you had last April.  Do you have any issues with graphiola leaf spot on your CIDP, dactys or theos?  I'm wondering if the graphiola is only caused by heat and  humidity or just the high humidity.  I know this is a problem for these species in Florida, Houston, and even for me here in San Antonio.  @Love them palms will certainly have the humidity in his region and likely have to deal with this unsightly cosmetic issue unless it's not a problem in the cooler regions.

Jon

Jon Sunder

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58 minutes ago, Love them palms said:

Our normal lows are about 17f - 20f that 0F was a way time long ago event-I live close to the Puget sound, I can see it from my back deck. (other than this winter and 2008 which were pretty  bruta)l the lows where I live stay around 19f and above. The summers here get pretty darn warm here too.if any thing I would be planting the CIPDs that I have in the back yard  Which is facing South. Would probly plant them pretty close to the house Which is a 2 level so with a little TLC they would have a better chance of survival And the Theos and zahidi date palms will be in pots( probably sell a few) for a while.the theo's would probably have the better chance of survival here I don't know what to do with the  zahidi date palm.my main trees will be jubaea hybrids and Butia hybrids with a couple of sabal riverside and washingtonia Filibusta and a robusta 

If it has reached 0F before in your location, you cannot rule out it happening again. And every year there is always some location setting a new winter low, so in theory you could have a new record low during any given winter. When I had a low of 12F in February 2018, that was my coldest temperature for my area since 1968. Lots of people around my neck of the woods had all sorts of exotics and sub-tropical plants/palms in their gardens, due to previous mild winters, only for them to lose them all in the Feb 2018 cold snap. So you need to bare it in mind in our cool, wet climates. 

Definitely give the Zahidi Date's a go in your location. You will probably find some get hid hard and might die, while others will likely have better moisture and cold tolerance. It seems to vary quite a bit between individual specimens.  The same applies with the Theo's. And this is especially the case with the Filibusta hybrids. Some of mine are doing great and handled winter no problem, while other Filibusta's have suffered some form of necrosis/leaf spot and have been hit hard by the wet-cold winter. Some of mine have carried on growing all winter, whereas others have barely grown at all and a few have suffered bad frond damage due to them being less robust than others. So each specimen is different. 

Good luck with it either way and I hope they do well for you. I am in a similar position as yourself, in regards to zone pushing palm species. 

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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1 hour ago, Fusca said:

Ben, you seem to be fairly close to the coast and likely have some high humidity (maybe not as bad as the southeast USA) especially after 1-2 weeks of continuous rain like you had last April.  Do you have any issues with graphiola leaf spot on your CIDP, dactys or theos?  I'm wondering if the graphiola is only caused by heat and  humidity or just the high humidity.  I know this is a problem for these species in Florida, Houston, and even for me here in San Antonio.  @Love them palms will certainly have the humidity in his region and likely have to deal with this unsightly cosmetic issue unless it's not a problem in the cooler regions.

Jon

I am about 30 miles inland from the coast, so I do not benefit from the coastal temperature moderation in winter and summer. Humidity is also much lower here than at the coast, although humidity is generally high year round for me. As it is for the whole of the UK. I'm talking averages of 90% in winter and 70% in summer. 

Graphiola leaf spot is not really an issue here, although I have encountered problems with my Dacty, Theo and Butia. They have had necrosis and some kind of disease which may, or may not be, graphiola leaf spot. Thankfully the CIDP's do not seem to suffer from any bacterial diseases in my location. They are one of the only palm types here that seem to remain completely green for me (at least this year) and look very healthy. My Trachy's on the other hand, which are bulletproof around here, have turned yellow and brown in places and look a bit leggy after this winter. Whereas my biggest CIDP is completely green and looks a picture of health. As do all the other CIDP's I have seen around here. Can't say the same about the Trachy's though...

My Butia Odorata in particular has suffered from necrosis and possibly graphiola leaf spot. It is definitely my most effected palm at present and one that is starting to frustrate me as it seems to have problems in winter and summer here. The tips of the fronds have necrosis and are dying back and the fronds look in poor health. I also think it had graphiola leaf spot last autumn/fall. The Jubaea sat next to it however is absolutely fine.

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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There's a reason you don't see any Phoenix palms in the ground in the PNW even though they are readily available locally in stores.  They can't handle the wet winters, they may make it a couple of years but they aren't a long term palm in our climate.  Stick to Butias, jubea's and mules if you want a feather palm.

If you protected them with a rain shelter they might make it, but I have a feeling fungus would still find its way into the crown.

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Here are the largest know and biggest ever phoenix palm in the WA state.  Growing on Anderson Island in Puget Sound.  Way back in the day we had 8-9 years were the PNW had 9a-9b winters and this palm show the results it is now presumed dead.  If only we would stay that warm every year. 

i-68rgs5r.jpg.f6a5013c566071eaf5849455c3ca8aee.jpg

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3 hours ago, Chester B said:

There's a reason you don't see any Phoenix palms in the ground in the PNW even though they are readily available locally in stores.  They can't handle the wet winters, they may make it a couple of years but they aren't a long term palm in our climate.  Stick to Butias, jubea's and mules if you want a feather palm.

If you protected them with a rain shelter they might make it, but I have a feeling fungus would still find its way into the crown.

Oh believe me I am .just getting started. I have 2 xbutijubagrus being shipped in, 1 butia x jubaea being shipped in 5 super mules (bxjxbxs) coming in and will be getting a couple of sabal riverside also.I now got to figure out what to do  with my 2 5g CIDP. They cant stay inside forever. Maybe plant them in the back yard facing south and hope for the best I suppose 

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1 hour ago, Palm crazy said:

Here are the largest know and biggest ever phoenix palm in the WA state.  Growing on Anderson Island in Puget Sound.  Way back in the day we had 8-9 years were the PNW had 9a-9b winters and this palm show the results it is now presumed dead.  If only we would stay that warm every year. 

i-68rgs5r.jpg.f6a5013c566071eaf5849455c3ca8aee.jpg

Well after the winter we had this year up here this year maybe that won't happen again for another 10 years now,maybe with good old climate change maybe we will get a 9a-9b zone before then:D

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5 minutes ago, Love them palms said:

Oh believe me I am .just getting started. I have 2 xbutijubagrus being shipped in, 1 butia x jubaea being shipped in 5 super mules (bxjxbxs) coming in and will be getting a couple of sabal riverside also.I now got to figure out what to do  with my 2 5g CIDP. They cant stay inside forever. Maybe plant them in the back yard facing south and hope for the best I suppose 

Sounds like you're off to a great start.  I got two mules from TexasColdHardy but I can't remember if they are BxJxS or JxBxS to try out as well.  My Local palm guy has a huge mule that I'm going to ask him about next time I'm there.

I had a CIDP when I lived in Canada and was able to keep it in a pot for years.  I used a dolly to bring it in and out of the house so you have time.  

Two other palms I am trying but am still growing out are Sabal ureseana and Livistona nitida.  You might want to give these a shot as well.

I have a filibusta in a pot with very fast draining soil and it got fungus on it this winter.  Looks like it's going to make it, but I pulled it into the garage to dry out and recover.  Homedepot sells them every year here but I've never seen one in the ground.

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3 hours ago, Chester B said:

There's a reason you don't see any Phoenix palms in the ground in the PNW even though they are readily available locally in stores.  They can't handle the wet winters, they may make it a couple of years but they aren't a long term palm in our climate.  Stick to Butias, jubea's and mules if you want a feather palm.

If you protected them with a rain shelter they might make it, but I have a feeling fungus would still find its way into the crown.

I agree. The PNW has a very similar climate to me (temperature-wise), although it get's at least twice as much rainfall as me annually and about 3-4 x as much rainfall during the winter months. So I am a lot drier than the PNW in winter, yet CIDP's are certainly not long term palms here. So they definitely won't be long term palms in PNW. As you and others have mentioned, people will probably get them through 3-4 winters in PNW and inland locations in the UK, only for them to get knocked out by a colder than average winter, or polar vortex.

You also have to hope that you get a particularly hardy specimen, as some are much more susceptible to wet-cold than others. Just like Washingtonia, hardiness differs between individual Phoenix specimens. I have started a number of CIDP's, Theo's and Filibusta's from seed to find the hardiest specimens. Recent winters have killed off my weaker, wet-cold susceptible specimens, leaving the stronger, more resilient cold-hardy ones still standing. Some of which are up to 10F-15F hardier than others from the same seed batch. And some that do well in wet, humid conditions. Those are the ones to plant.

If you purchase a 5 year old specimen, there is a good chance it has been grown out of state in hot, dry conditions so is not accustomed to the cooler, wetter winters of our locations. Plus you'll have an average, or below average specimen in regards to hardiness as it has not been selected for hardiness, which is what you can do when growing them from a batch of seeds. Just things for the OP to bare in mind...

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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12 minutes ago, Chester B said:

I have a filibusta in a pot with very fast draining soil and it got fungus on it this winter.  Looks like it's going to make it, but I pulled it into the garage to dry out and recover.  Homedepot sells them every year here but I've never seen one in the ground.

I too have had some issues with fungus on my Filibusta's this winter. The larger ones that were left outside are fine, but the smaller specimens that I have mollycoddled and brought inside to protect, are the ones that have been affected. Possibly as they were situated next to pepper plants that were being overwintered? I dunno whether the fungus came from the pepper plants, or from insects? 

2 of the Filibusta's have been badly affected but should pull through. Another 3 have some minor fungus issues and another 3-4 are absolutely fine. The two larger Filibusta's that were left outside this winter are absolutely fine, so it seems I did more damage bringing them indoors. The trunk on one of them has also grown into a banana like shape ffs. 

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I too have had some issues with fungus on my Filibusta's this winter. The larger ones that were left outside are fine, but the smaller specimens that I have mollycoddled and brought inside to protect, are the ones that have been affected. Possibly as they were situated next to pepper plants that were being overwintered? I dunno whether the fungus came from the pepper plants, or from insects? 

2 of the Filibusta's have been badly affected but should pull through. Another 3 have some minor fungus issues and another 3-4 are absolutely fine. The two larger Filibusta's that were left outside this winter are absolutely fine, so it seems I did more damage bringing them indoors. The trunk on one of them has also grown into a banana like shape ffs. 

I take it filibusta is not a good choice for the Puget sound area,now sabal riverside I guess would be a good substitute for it,not a fast growing palm as a washingtonia but faster growing than regular sabals

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3 hours ago, Love them palms said:

I take it filibusta is not a good choice for the Puget sound area,now sabal riverside I guess would be a good substitute for it,not a fast growing palm as a washingtonia but faster growing than regular sabals

I wouldn't really recommend Filibusta's for the PNW. Not if CIDP's aren't currently growing in that area.

The problem with Filibusta's is that they either lean heavily towards Robusta dominance, in which case they will still only be hardy down to around 20F. Or they lean heavily towards Filifera dominance, in which case they still hate wet-cold and high humidity. So either of those two types of Filibusta will be a problem in the PNW. You don't really get many that are somewhere in between, which is what you want. You'll have to start a batch of seeds and cherry pick the ones that are somewhere in between, which show both good cold-hardiness traits and also good resistance to wet-cold and humidity. This may account for 10-20% of the total seed batch from my experience. 

Out of my 10 Filibusta's, 5 are Robusta dominant, 4 are Filifera dominant and 2 of them are somewhere in between. The two that are somewhere in between show good cold-hardiness and good wet-cold/humidity resistance, although one of which is still clearly Robusta dominant in appearance. If you purchase a single Filibusta specimen from a retailer, there is a good chance that it will be a Robusta dominant specimen and only hardy down to 20F, or it will be a Filifera dominant specimen and still struggle with wet-cold and humidity. Like I said, you really need to start a batch of seeds and cherry pick the hardiest specimens that incorporate the qualities of both Robusta and Filifera together. Because more often than not, they lean towards one of the parent plants, rather than being a true hybrid of both types. I had one that I ditched for instance that couldn't handle any wet-cold or humidity, much like a true Filifera. 

My pure Washingtonia Robusta has actually done much better this winter than the Filibusta's, although we have just had one of the mildest winters on record. 

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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@Love them palms If you want to grow a Phoenix palm, I would say your best bet would be Phoenix Canariensis var Porphyrocarpa (AKA red fruits), which is supposedly around 5F more hardy than regular CIDP. The jury is out on it's origins, but it is almost certainly a CIDP hybridised with Dactylifera, or possibly Sylvestris. People seem to swear by this type in the south of France, where they have supposedly survived 10F when all the other regular CIDP's were defoliated. Unfortunately you're going to have to start these ones from seed though as they are not really in cultivation.

Your other option is the Cretan Date Palm (Theophrasti) which is the best Phoenix type for wet-cold conditions. But that is only prolonged wet cold in the 20-40F range. They are probably about 5F less hardy than CIDP's when it comes to their outright low temperature limit. But they will handle your average wet-cold conditions better than CIDP and are a real water guzzler in the warmer months. They actually grow in their native range with their trunks often submerged in water, even in winter when the temp goes down to freezing. So they are fine in wet, humid conditions. But again, they are probably around 5F less hardy than CIDP when it comes to extreme lows. 

I don't think any Phoenix type is really suited to your climate though. Not to mention you have a heck of a lot of rainfall and strong winds as well. Windchill in winter will be a major issue which can also decide the fate of a palm. My CIDP at 51N is protected from the northeasterly wind in winter, which clearly makes a difference.  

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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Thanks UK_Palms, some good information there.  Most winters at least in my area we don't go below 20F or even 25F but it is possible to get colder and winter precipitation can be highly variable.  At the majority of the Oregon coast aside from a small portion at the southern tip you will not find any Phoenix even though it's a solid zone 9 with mature cordylines.

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13 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@Love them palms If you want to grow a Phoenix palm, I would say your best bet would be Phoenix Canariensis var Porphyrocarpa (AKA red fruits), which is supposedly around 5F more hardy than regular CIDP. The jury is out on it's origins, but it is almost certainly a CIDP hybridised with Dactylifera, or possibly Sylvestris. People seem to swear by this type in the south of France, where they have supposedly survived 10F when all the other regular CIDP's were defoliated. Unfortunately you're going to have to start these ones from seed though as they are not really in cultivation.

Your other option is the Cretan Date Palm (Theophrasti) which is the best Phoenix type for wet-cold conditions. But that is only prolonged wet cold in the 20-40F range. They are probably about 5F less hardy than CIDP's when it comes to their outright low temperature limit. But they will handle your average wet-cold conditions better than CIDP and are a real water guzzler in the warmer months. They actually grow in their native range with their trunks often submerged in water, even in winter when the temp goes down to freezing. So they are fine in wet, humid conditions. But again, they are probably around 5F less hardy than CIDP when it comes to extreme lows. 

I don't think any Phoenix type is really suited to your climate though. Not to mention you have a heck of a lot of rainfall and strong winds as well. Windchill in winter will be a major issue which can also decide the fate of a palm. My CIDP at 51N is protected from the northeasterly wind in winter, which clearly makes a difference.  

Well thanks to you comment,you arose my curiosity into the Phoenix var porphyrocarpa. Just purchased some seeds,I do have 2 theo seedlings that are in pots inside for now,and 10 zahidi date palm seedlings which I have been told are a wee bit harder than regular date palms-dont know what I will do with the zahidi palms.the 2 Phoenix canariensis that I have in pots that will be better off in my back yard for now.it faces south and should give them protection from the northern elements plus winter protection, if and when they pass to palm tree heaven I will replace them with maybe sabal riverside or a butia or jubaea hybrid.my main palms  will be hybrids -butijubagrus,Butia x jubaea, a couple of mules, and super mules (Bxjxbxs hybrid),sabal riversides. hopefully the PNW will have another 10 good years of mild decent winters before we get another blast of snow and cold like we did in February,believe me I will not hold my breath on the Phoenix canariensis and theophrasti survival but maybe enjoy them for a few years before they go since I am stuck with them now.I had no knowledge of palms when I got into them last summer but now thanks to you and all the other forums I'm on I have gained alot insight. 

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11 minutes ago, Love them palms said:

Well thanks to you comment,you arose my curiosity into the Phoenix var porphyrocarpa. Just purchased some seeds,I do have 2 theo seedlings that are in pots inside for now,and 10 zahidi date palm seedlings which I have been told are a wee bit harder than regular date palms-dont know what I will do with the zahidi palms.the 2 Phoenix canariensis that I have in pots that will be better off in my back yard for now.it faces south and should give them protection from the northern elements plus winter protection, if and when they pass to palm tree heaven I will replace them with maybe sabal riverside or a butia or jubaea hybrid.my main palms  will be hybrids -butijubagrus,Butia x jubaea, a couple of mules, and super mules (Bxjxbxs hybrid),sabal riversides. hopefully the PNW will have another 10 good years of mild decent winters before we get another blast of snow and cold like we did in February,believe me I will not hold my breath on the Phoenix canariensis and theophrasti survival but maybe enjoy them for a few years before they go since I am stuck with them now.I had no knowledge of palms when I got into them last summer but now thanks to you and all the other forums I'm on I have gained alot insight. 

Good luck with the zone pushing. I am in a similar boat to you myself, climate-wise. 

One thing I will say about the Phoenix and Washingtonia is that it is actually pretty hard to outright kill them in our climates, because it doesn't quite get cold enough. Our worst winters will probably just defoliate them and leave them looking pretty bad for 1-2 years while they catch up, with some taking 6 months to start regrowing, but they will probably push out new growth again eventually. Even after a low of say 10F. You'll just have to accept that they might look pretty bad and have no fronds for 12-24 months after a bad winter. But they shouldn't outright die unless the trunk rots or the roots freeze solid and die, which is pretty unlikely in our coastal climates which are moderated by the nearby ocean. So don't be too disheartened about trying your luck with the CIDP and Theo's. You might have some success with them. 

Anyway, I have just planted up my worst looking, most leggy Filibusta seedling that has struggled this winter. Hopefully this will help it grow better and revert back to a normal trunk shape. Further to what I was mentioning in one of my previous posts, this Filibusta appears to be a Filifera dominant version and consequently has had issues with humidity, rain and fungus. It has also stretched somewhat unlike it's Filibusta brothers and sisters and could well be a mutant form. It will be interesting to see how it fares over the next 6-7 months, compared to the other potted Filibusta's which are doing much better right now.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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Well before I dove into growing Palm trees I should I did more research on which ones were zone Hardy for my area, I found the ones that were zone 8B But I failed To realize that all zone 8B,s are not the same, And also I thought I was convinced that our winters were mild enough for them to survive  Then blam we got hit with a winter weather in February that broke snowfall records here ,the coldest min temp in my neck of the woods from what I checked was only 20F so it wasn't to freezing cold,before  I got  Palm smarter I got a Sylvester, 2 Phoenix canariensis and 1 robusta,  I put the Silvester in the ground in late August And left the rest outside in pots,the Sylvester was abused from my lawn service from their weed wacker really bad.  it was doing ok till February when the storms arrived and instead of putting something cloth over it for protection it put a plastic garbage bag over it (big mistake).its got a very slight green at the base in the spear.so I don't know  If I should pronounce it dead now Right yet. But now I'm stuck with 2 Canary palms and a robusta so gotta do something with them. I should have done more research before diving into purchasing palms.

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1 hour ago, Love them palms said:

I should have done more research before diving into purchasing palms.

I think we all got overzealous when we first started.  I planted out white and orange bird of paradise, and some red maurelli bananas in my first year.  HomeDepot sells in the outside garden center as outdoor plants so they'll be totally fine right??:rolleyes:  

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40 minutes ago, Chester B said:

I think we all got overzealous when we first started.  I planted out white and orange bird of paradise, and some red maurelli bananas in my first year.  HomeDepot sells in the outside garden center as outdoor plants so they'll be totally fine right??:rolleyes:  

Well I got started when I went to Vegas and S California, since I can't live at either spots for at least until I retire which is another 20 years I figured I would bring it up to me.I am not a big fan of trachycarpus cause everybody and their dogs who have palms up here,I wanted to be different so without doing any research except zone hardiness, not realizing that there are differences in zone 8B,s for a palms survival I dove right in. now being set straight I have learned that there are other feather palms that can grow here that somewhat bulletproof that will be just as beautiful. but I'm still learning 

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