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palm carnage avon NC


Mr.SamuraiSword

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looking at recently updated street-views around avon and hatteras and found more palmetto casualties then i expected.  how low did it get?  these were quite established . even the volunteers got beat up!  it seems a few by the stock car place were dead in 2016 but most seem to be recent casulties.  just go to the link if u want and go down the road.  last winter really must have done it in!

5be09d67a19f3_ScreenShot2018-11-05at2.36

 

5be09d6f0bd1c_ScreenShot2018-11-05at2.36

5be09d799b7e5_ScreenShot2018-11-05at2.355be09d7fc0b74_ScreenShot2018-11-05at2.395be09d844d542_ScreenShot2018-11-05at2.355be09d86e9eaa_ScreenShot2018-11-05at2.365be09d5b1603b_ScreenShot2018-11-05at2.35

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.5823998,-75.4671687,3a,15y,224.14h,88.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seCET4ZfFUOAPokNF5-WE9A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

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Despite being z8b, the Outer Banks north of Cape Hatteras see some extremely cold winds off of the Atlantic in the winter. Generally, Cape Hatteras and south are safe from the cold winter winds. I have seen some beautiful palms north of Hatteras, especially when protected from the north winds. Ronoake Island is a good example. 

On a side note, if Sabal palmetto was ever historically found in the OBX, I doubt it would be able to complete its life cycle north of Hatteras. But Sabal minor is native as far north as the Currituck sound area.

 

Zone 8a/8b Greenville, NC 

Zone 9a/9b Bluffton, SC

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Yeah the the Outer Banks north of Hatteras like NC_Palms said basically have the same problem that Virginia Beach has, the winds right along the coast absolutely destroy them in the winter. Palmetto that are really well sheltered from wind do good. As for Sabal minor, they are scattered around the Currituck sound (pretty close to the Virginia State Line) and are found near Elizabeth City and Edenton on the mainland of N.C. 

Edited by PalmTreeDude
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PalmTreeDude

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Same winds on the Delmarva beaches too. Something like 220+ days in the growing season and very mild winter temps with rare freezes, but the wind off the ocean can be absolutely brutal!

LOWS 16/17 12F, 17/18 3F, 18/19 7F, 19/20 20F

Palms growing in my garden: Trachycarpus Fortunei, Chamaerops Humilis, Chamaerops Humilis var. Cerifera, Rhapidophyllum Hystrix, Sabal Palmetto 

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On 11/6/2018, 9:26:31, mdsonofthesouth said:

Same winds on the Delmarva beaches too. Something like 220+ days in the growing season and very mild winter temps with rare freezes, but the wind off the ocean can be absolutely brutal!

The Labrador Current is to blame, it brings nasty winds in the winter months.

Zone 8a/8b Greenville, NC 

Zone 9a/9b Bluffton, SC

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more in nags head.

these probably will survive.

5be4ab9800c74_ScreenShot2018-11-08at4.235be4abb8d0a88_ScreenShot2018-11-08at4.31

these maybe not though i see green on one.

5be4abe8c29aa_ScreenShot2018-11-08at4.25

these never had a chance..

5be4abf3e4ef3_ScreenShot2018-11-08at4.29

 

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On 11/8/2018, 4:34:59, Mr.SamuraiSword said:

more in nags head.

these probably will survive.

5be4ab9800c74_ScreenShot2018-11-08at4.235be4abb8d0a88_ScreenShot2018-11-08at4.31

these maybe not though i see green on one.

5be4abe8c29aa_ScreenShot2018-11-08at4.25

these never had a chance..

5be4abf3e4ef3_ScreenShot2018-11-08at4.29

 

When were these photos taken? If it was in the spring and early summer, they probably look much greener now. 

Zone 8a/8b Greenville, NC 

Zone 9a/9b Bluffton, SC

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On 11/9/2018, 8:35:46, NC_Palms said:

When were these photos taken? If it was in the spring and early summer, they probably look much greener now. 

april

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I should have driven north of Duck to see the palmetto nuttiness.  I did drive through Manteo twice looking for the beautiful palmetto I remembered.  Didn't see it, but went to Street View and found it instantly.  It's in a yard opposite the State Employees Credit Union and Duck Thru.  I can't easily make copies of Street View images to pdf thanks to the latest Apple update.  

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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1 hour ago, Dave-Vero said:

I should have driven north of Duck to see the palmetto nuttiness.  I did drive through Manteo twice looking for the beautiful palmetto I remembered.  Didn't see it, but went to Street View and found it instantly.  It's in a yard opposite the State Employees Credit Union and Duck Thru.  I can't easily make copies of Street View images to pdf thanks to the latest Apple update.  

I assume you meant this Sabal and its smaller trachycarpus friends. Not looking too bad after the events in January. 

https://goo.gl/maps/VMN4kdMTDTJ2

Edited by mdsonofthesouth
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LOWS 16/17 12F, 17/18 3F, 18/19 7F, 19/20 20F

Palms growing in my garden: Trachycarpus Fortunei, Chamaerops Humilis, Chamaerops Humilis var. Cerifera, Rhapidophyllum Hystrix, Sabal Palmetto 

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Exactly.  I was in Manteo during the cold.  Nasty.

 

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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Gary Hollar told me about that Sabal palmetto, he told me it originally came from BHI. 

Zone 8a/8b Greenville, NC 

Zone 9a/9b Bluffton, SC

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How cold did this place get to last winter?

My town got down to 12F with snow, but the Sabal's were barely fazed. None of the 3 specimens I know of were defoliated and they all looked 100% fine and dandy again by July. 

Coastal NC surely can't be colder than inland England during winter. We had a lot of wind as well. Could it have been the sudden switch from warm to cold? 

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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12 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

How cold did this place get to last winter?

My town got down to 12F with snow, but the Sabal's were barely fazed. None of the 3 specimens I know of were defoliated and they all looked 100% fine and dandy again by July. 

Coastal NC surely can't be colder than inland England during winter. We had a lot of wind as well. Could it have been the sudden switch from warm to cold? 

The sudden switch was fatal to our palms here. We had palms pulling out spears up until the January freeze. For Manteo and the surrounding areas, the lowest it got was around 14ºF. which isn't damaging to sabals or butia. The winter wasn't bad, maybe a few degrees below average for the OBX but the lack of summer heat plus the wind chill from the North Atlantic is what caused damages. 

Zone 8a/8b Greenville, NC 

Zone 9a/9b Bluffton, SC

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Fair enough. A bit off topic, but I am gobsmacked to see that Houston, TX is 20F colder than it is here in southern England today. They have a high of 39F, compared to our 59F. 

That's mental. Especially for November. I know Houston has a lot of palms as well, at least compared to the UK, yet their all time low is also 4F lower than ours. Makes me feel a bit more hopeful with my Dactylifera and Sylvestris lol.

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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4 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Fair enough. A bit off topic, but I am gobsmacked to see that Houston, TX is 20F colder than it is here in southern England today. They have a high of 39F, compared to our 59F. 

That's mental. Especially for November. I know Houston has a lot of palms as well, at least compared to the UK, yet their all time low is also 4F lower than ours. Makes me feel a bit more hopeful with my Dactylifera and Sylvestris lol.

I believe they are going through a cold snap right now, as I am warmer than Houston is right now. Someone on this forum once said that Texas is in the artic bowling alley. Huston gets a lot of summer heat too, and can definitely have warm winter days. Go ahead and try your Dactys and Sylvestris! They might do well, especially if you gave them the best conditions you can, you never know until you try! 

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PalmTreeDude

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It's a matter of persistent low temperatures versus brief cold waves, a North American specialty east of the Rocky Mountains.  If we had a substantial east-west mountain chain between, say, Richmond and Memphis, the climate to the south would be free of these disasters.  

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Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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Research using computer sim models (by folks in the UK non the less) show that if the Rockies were not so high and continuous the eastern US would have considerably milder winters and less severe Arctic outbreaks. It is a prime setup - the long unbroken high mountain ranges out West efficiently block mild Pacific Westerlies and enhance the amplitude of troughs and ridges. To their east lies a huge expanse of really flat land from the Arctic to the Gulf so the cold air flows like water spilled on a table across the continent when conditions are right.

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If last winter's big cold wave hadn't gone out to sea over the Carolinas and had instead headed straight for Florida, we would have suffered all sorts of damage.  I was impressed to see the Norfolk Botanical Garden's Sabal minors thriving, along with Illicium parviflorum (a Florida-only evergreen shrub).  The needle palm on the right of course looks fine.  So were the Trachys.  

Bear in mind that the area used by the Wright Brothers was a big vegetation-free sand plain next to an active sand dune (Kill Devil Hill) back then.

Norfolk_botanical_garden_Sabal_minor_Rhapidophyllum-1.jpg

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Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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The Nags Head - Kitty Hawk area has some of the largest sand dunes in the United States, as well as evergreen maritime forest and a few scattered rare deciduous maritime forest in areas where salt spray isn't as severe. The landscape of the Outer Banks is pretty diverse for its location. 

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Zone 8a/8b Greenville, NC 

Zone 9a/9b Bluffton, SC

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