cold hardy palms in houston

[HtownPalms]

Meangreen94z, You are right. The property tax rate over there is around 4%!! We wanted to move to Manvel, but between that and poorly rated AISD schools we moved to Angleton when we left overpopulated Pearland. 

JEFF985, I know Houston has urban heating unlike Angleton so that is probably true. However all that concrete is moving south so it is likely to change in 10-20 years. Especially with the proposed Grand Parkway coming soon. Working in Lake Jackson I can definitely tell you that on cold nights the temperature in that area is usually a good 5 degrees warmer than Angleton! It's only 10 minutes down 288 too! They definitely have a good gulf coast microclimate. 

[Jeff985]

3 hours ago, HtownPalms said:

Meangreen94z, You are right. The property tax rate over there is around 4%!! We wanted to move to Manvel, but between that and poorly rated AISD schools we moved to Angleton when we left overpopulated Pearland. 

JEFF985, I know Houston has urban heating unlike Angleton so that is probably true. However all that concrete is moving south so it is likely to change in 10-20 years. Especially with the proposed Grand Parkway coming soon. Working in Lake Jackson I can definitely tell you that on cold nights the temperature in that area is usually a good 5 degrees warmer than Angleton! It's only 10 minutes down 288 too! They definitely have a good gulf coast microclimate. 

I’ve been watching the weather during cold fronts for multiple parts of Houston, Lake Jackson, Clute, and Freeport. Houston inside the loop, cities along the bay going down 146, and Pearland are consistently warmer than Lake Jackson, Clute, and sometimes even Freeport. I watched this for the last two years trying to determine the best place to grow palms since I was planning on moving and that was going to be part of the decision. Clute and Freeport are officially 9b according to the USDA and I’m most of this area will be after the next hardiness map update. Urbanization moving in that direction would help with palm growing but it will suck in so many other ways. I looked at houses in that area knowing there were warmer spots entirely because of it being so removed from the city. 

[Xenon]

Houston area lows from the Nov cold blast a few weeks ago: 

Med Center/Museum District is definiely the warmest area in the metro away from water. 

[Jeff985]

It bottomed out at 33 at my place. 

[HtownPalms]

Jeff985,  I certainly don't have any data on hand to make a claim against anything that you stated. I am very surprised that Clute and Freeport get colder than Houston. When I used to live in Pearland it was always warmer when I got to work then when I left home between 4:30-5:30 in the morning. 

[Jeff985]

32 minutes ago, HtownPalms said:

Jeff985,  I certainly don't have any data on hand to make a claim against anything that you stated. I am very surprised that Clute and Freeport get colder than Houston. When I used to live in Pearland it was always warmer when I got to work then when I left home between 4:30-5:30 in the morning. 

Daytime temperatures could be warmer in that area. I’ve just been watching the lows. I used to live in Katy. It was always considerably colder than southeast Houston and areas along Galveston Bay but warmer during the day. Water moderation works both ways. Galveston is always the cold spot during the day and the warmest at night. And we’re not always warmer than Freeport at night. I haven’t kept records to give a percentage but probably around 50/50. I work nights a lot so I can watch all the weather apps and sites and see current temps for all those areas. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Jeff985

[Jeff985]

To get back to the topic of all the dying palms in the area. I just talked to someone from the Texas A&M extension office, and he confirmed the worst. Eastern Harris County is a hot zone for TPPD/Lethal bronzing. 

[Xenon]

6 hours ago, HtownPalms said:

Jeff985,  I certainly don't have any data on hand to make a claim against anything that you stated. I am very surprised that Clute and Freeport get colder than Houston. When I used to live in Pearland it was always warmer when I got to work then when I left home between 4:30-5:30 in the morning. 

610 loop stays warmer due to the urban heat island effect. Most of the inner loop stays warmer than Clute/Lake Jackson on a cold night and the warmest parts (Medical Center, Museum District, Rice Village, etc) are warmer than even Freeport. Most of south (Hobby) and southeast Houston within BW8 also gets UHI to a lesser degree and usually run on par with Lake Jackson.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Xenon

[Xenon]

As far as expanding concrete, I've noticed the urban corridor hugging both sides of 610 from Uptown/Kirby @ US 59 to Bellaire is also running pretty warm. Similar to Greenway , Montrose, Downtown, and Midtown which themselves are just a hair less mild than the pocket formed close to the intersection of US 59 and SH 288. 

[Meangreen94z]

I found this chart of annual low temperatures each year for Houston.(I’m sure some are already aware). I guess add or subtract a few degrees depending on your location.

https://www.currentresults.com/Yearly-Weather/USA/TX/Houston/extreme-annual-houston-low-temperature.php

Edited December 10, 2019 by Meangreen94z

[Jeff985]

I’ve seen that. It’s readings from Hobby Airport. If you average the last 30 years it equals 28 degrees. Solid 9b. Galveston would have to be 10a. Inner loop and bay front would be close. 

[Meangreen94z]

It’s those low 20’s, occasional high teens that make attempting 9B/10A palms questionable. I doubt we’ll see 9*F like 1989, but anything is possible. 

[Jeff985]

1 hour ago, Meangreen94z said:

It’s those low 20’s, occasional high teens that make attempting 9B/10A palms questionable. I doubt we’ll see 9*F like 1989, but anything is possible. 

You gotta take advantage of those stretches of warm winters. Grow some nice stuff and hope the next polar vortex event doesn’t happen. If/when it does, start over. Maybe by then our normal winter lows will be above freezing, then we can grow even more stuff between arctic invasions. I enjoy zone pushing. I just don’t spend a lot on the questionable stuff. I’ve got five foxtails. The most expensive one was $50. I’ve already got a year and a half out of it. I feel I’ve got my money’s worth out of it. 

[Meangreen94z]

If I end up staying in Houston I’ve thought about picking up about 5 fire pits in addition to a collection of incandescent Christmas lights. Just plan on potentially taking 1-2 days off each January/February to stay up late and  monitor everything. Most likely that would only occur every 5-7 years. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Meangreen94z

[HtownPalms]

That's the frustrating part about living here. Most of the year it's so tropical, and most winters are mild but it's the darn polar vortex'es every 5 years or so that keep us from being able to really grow the cool stuff! Down in Lake Jackson there were travelers palms that had 10-12' of trunk. They looked awesome, but the vortex of January 2018 took them all out. Sure we can grow the awesome exotic palms for a few years, but everytime they really start to take off they get hammered. Oh well. I guess the challenge is part of it. 

[Jeff985]

That’s why I have a mixture of long term palms and zone pushers. Queens, livistonas, Sabal, variously Phoenix and several others are proven long term. Then I have stuff like foxtails which could easily make it 10 years here. There are plenty of others that could be long term here but are just not available. 

[HtownPalms]

Jeff985, That's a good strategy.  That's what I will do with my new yard. Hopefully more palms become available in our area. If we could get sizeable palms like Adonidia merrillii cheap enough you can live with it being a potential annual.

[Jeff985]

I have an Adonidia in a pot. Ordered from Florida. It’s one of my favorites so I won’t be planting in the ground because it would indeed be an annual. If they were available here I would consider planting one knowing I would have to protect it a few times a year, pretty much every year. But if you’re not pushing the zone you’ll just have the same stuff as everyone else in your neighborhood and eventually you’ll run out of room. Then you have to find a new hobby. Just make sure you have some hardy stuff too that way if we do get a landscape altering freeze, you’ll still have some large palms in your yard. 

[HtownPalms]

Jeff985, I agree. You have to zone push to not have just another yard, but keep it grounded with what does thrive here. Joseph's nursery in Pearland had a couple dozen Adonidia merrillii for sale this summer, but they were $175 for 15 gallon and $275 for 25 gallon!! For that price it can't be a throwaway palm. They sold out in a few weeks. I'm assuming the majority of people who bought them didn't realize how cold sensitive they are and will soon be disappointed. 

[Jeff985]

Driving around Galveston today and stumbled across this fruiting foxtail. Looks like it used to be a double. 2018 probably made it a single. 

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

Crazy to think that a foxtail made it thru 2018 freeze and my poor Coconut Queens didnt =/ 

[Jeff985]

6 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Crazy to think that a foxtail made it thru 2018 freeze and my poor Coconut Queens didnt =/ 

Your coconut queens may have if they had more time to establish. They hadn’t been in the ground very long. 

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

2 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

Your coconut queens may have if they had more time to establish. They hadn’t been in the ground very long. 

They flew thru our 2017 freeze unharmed so I'm sure 20° was there absolute bottom. Also Galveston being relatively warmer then me =/ 

[HoustonTropical]

Well let’s add to it then !!!!  My 2019 spring backyard garden, I started it in 2018 I’ll add my 2020 pics after I quarantine my kids inflatable pool lol. By the way a lot has changed since then.

[HoustonTropical]

On 12/10/2019 at 3:09 PM, Meangreen94z said:

If I end up staying in Houston I’ve thought about picking up about 5 fire pits in addition to a collection of incandescent Christmas lights. Just plan on potentially taking 1-2 days off each January/February to stay up late and  monitor everything. Most likely that would only occur every 5-7 years. 

Great idea Meangreen94z

[DAVEinMB]

On 3/27/2020 at 7:59 PM, HoustonTropical said:

Well let’s add to it then !!!!  My 2019 spring backyard garden, I started it in 2018 I’ll add my 2020 pics after I quarantine my kids inflatable pool lol. By the way a lot has changed since then.

That's some good stuff right there!

[HoustonTropical]

On 3/27/2020 at 7:05 PM, HoustonTropical said:

Great idea Meangreen94z

 

9 hours ago, DAVEinMB said:

That's some good stuff right there!

Thanks DAVEinMB

[Xenon]

On 3/27/2020 at 6:13 PM, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Crazy to think that a foxtail made it thru 2018 freeze and my poor Coconut Queens didnt =/ 

If you had replanted in spring 2018, they would be a decent size by now  It's a crapshoot trying to predict when the next big freeze hits, though whoever planted in the late 90s definitely had the best return. Hopefully the 2020s will be a rerun of the 2000s, or even warmer. 

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Xenon

[Xenon]

On 3/27/2020 at 4:41 PM, Jeff985 said:

Driving around Galveston today and stumbled across this fruiting foxtail. Looks like it used to be a double. 2018 probably made it a single. 

 

That's a nice one! Any idea whereabouts approximately? 

[Jeff985]

23 minutes ago, Xenon said:

That's a nice one! Any idea whereabouts approximately? 

Tiki Island. I don’t remember which street. About the time I took the picture, I was distracted by my son throwing up all over the back seat. 

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

10 hours ago, Xenon said:

If you had replanted in spring 2018, they would be a decent size by now  It's a crapshoot trying to predict when the next big freeze hits, though whoever planted in the late 90s definitely had the best return. Hopefully the 2020s will be a rerun of the 2000s, or even warmer. 

 

I wish Coconut queens were that easy to replace Haha I paid a pretty penny for two 25gal sized specimens shipped from Jungle music in 2016 plus a bunch of other 9b palms that didnt make it in 2017 haha 

[Jeff985]

11 hours ago, Xenon said:

If you had replanted in spring 2018, they would be a decent size by now  It's a crapshoot trying to predict when the next big freeze hits, though whoever planted in the late 90s definitely had the best return. Hopefully the 2020s will be a rerun of the 2000s, or even warmer. 

 

I planted two in the summer of 2018 as 15 gallons. They’ve grown considerably, but they don’t compare to that one. 

[HtownPalms]

If anyone has stimulus money to burn and wants to do extreme zone pushing in Houston Joseph's nursery in Pearland has a new shipment of Manila Palms for sale. They had big ones and small ones last year, but so far this year they just have the big ones. 

[Jeff985]

9 minutes ago, HtownPalms said:

If anyone has stimulus money to burn and wants to do extreme zone pushing in Houston Joseph's nursery in Pearland has a new shipment of Manila Palms for sale. They had big ones and small ones last year, but so far this year they just have the big ones. 

 

For the right price they make great potted patio palms. There’s been one growing in the ground at the Kemah boardwalk for two years now. It won’t be long term, but it’ll be interesting to see just how long it lasts. 

[HtownPalms]

Jeff, The ones in the picture are $275 and I believe they are in 30 gallon pots. Last year they also had smaller ones in 15 or 20 gallon pots as well for $175. I think in places where they grow like south Florida i would assume that's a ripoff, but since we live where there is limited supply they might just be expensive. I am growing some from seed and that are 2 years old. To get to my seedlings where the ones at Joseph's are i would assume is another 4 or 5 years off. 

[Jeff985]

1 hour ago, HtownPalms said:

Jeff, The ones in the picture are $275 and I believe they are in 30 gallon pots. Last year they also had smaller ones in 15 or 20 gallon pots as well for $175. I think in places where they grow like south Florida i would assume that's a ripoff, but since we live where there is limited supply they might just be expensive. I am growing some from seed and that are 2 years old. To get to my seedlings where the ones at Joseph's are i would assume is another 4 or 5 years off. 

Yeah. That price is crazy. I ordered one from Florida last year for $80. It’s smaller than that, but a decent size and growing insanely fast. 

[Meangreen94z]

I used live right down the road in Manvel. The 2 times I stopped there, there was never anything very exciting. Guess I timed it wrong. But I wouldn’t pay that price for a potential annual.

[chinandega81]

Awesome pics from Houston! Any Areca palms growing outdoors there? If so please share pics.

Everything looks healthy despite low winter temps. Is the soil good there? Where I live it's all sand and rock but at least it is warm and humid most of the year.

[Jeff985]

23 minutes ago, chinandega81 said:

Awesome pics from Houston! Any Areca palms growing outdoors there? If so please share pics.

Everything looks healthy despite low winter temps. Is the soil good there? Where I live it's all sand and rock but at least it is warm and humid most of the year.

Arecas aren’t at all common here. Probably because the big box stores here don’t sell them. They can be found in locally owned garden centers and they’re usually pretty cheap, but they usually only have a couple and they’re back in a corner where a lot of people don’t see them. I have one (see below). It’s not very impressive. I paid like $30 for it back in February. Since we’ve revived this thread I might as well include some pictures of palms I’ve planted since this thread was active. 

[Jeff985]

34 minutes ago, chinandega81 said:

I just realized I didn’t answer your question about the soil. It’s heavy clay, which is good and bad. Water hogs like queens, royals, archontophoenix and majestys love it, but palms that don’t like wet roots don’t care for it at all.