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Licuala Ramsayi soil & water preferences


David_Sweden

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My main question would be: For palms that normally live in swamps (of which I have Licuala Ramsayi, Licuala Peltata var Sumawongii and a Lipstick Palm), I would assume they are impossible to overwater and can stand permanently with the whole root soaked in water and liking it, and don't care about the aeration of soil, so that e g clay or densely packed peat would work great, since they (at least the Licualas) have aerial roots, which I assume supply the root system with oxygen properly even if the whole soil is under water?

However I found two ten year old threads here and here with clear indications the do NOT like being permanently soaked in water, and even are rather particular about soil mix and its aeration. How can that be true, if they naturally live in swamps, mangroves and river banks?

I'm not sure I even have a problem with my Ramsayi yet, but it has been growing very well and been very healthy for over 3 years in my apartment. I always aimed at watering it when it was still "slightly wet" or "very moist" i e earlier than with most plants. 7 months ago, when it was down to requiring watering every 3 days, I potted it up, and then it remained moist enough for much more than 3 days. 2 months later it was again down to requiring watering every 3 days. Then I decided to put a bowl under it and after watering and emptying the bowl, fill it with 2cm water. This kind of treatment I've read is good for other palms that live in swamps like the Lipstick. Another reason for the bowl was that one day the soil had gotten a bit drier than I would normally allow; the following week I saw several areas (mainly tips) on newer leaves turn pale then brown, often those leaves that had seen most light, clearly related to dryness, and thought I'd avoid this ever happening again by using the bowl. I'm not finished evaluating this yet but have some worries due to pale areas on newest leaf and it not gaining height much the last months. But reading the 2 mentioned threads it sounds like Ramsayi does not like swamp-like conditions in a bowl?! Meanwhile my Peltata and Lipstick in the same soil mix but much more crowded pots are doing great. In fact time to repot them. They both filled their pots quickly with roots but Ramsayi never did in its new pot, it is still quite loose and easy to penetrate.

So I'm asking to avoid problems with the other 2 palms after imminent repotting, and to make sure Ramsayi is on the right track. And to understand why on earth a swamp palm wouldn't even love to live in my bathtub, or does it?

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Basically what works great for all my palms, especially the more tropical ones, is extremely well draining soil (Pal Meirs'  recipe) and very frequent watering. Water in bowls only leads to misery in my experience. My Licuala's, joeys, lipsticks all do fine without browning tips or yellowing leaves on the seramis mix. Just gotta make sure you water at least once every 2 days, depending on pot size (not recommended for the organic "soaky" soils, I don't use those anymore).

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www.facebook.com/#!/Totallycoconuts

Amsterdam,

The Netherlands

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Thanks for the reply. But what I am asking for primarily is to help me understand why a palm that normally lives in waterlogged soil would not like to live in an apartment permanently soaked in water, even submerged in a bathtub? Or maybe it does like it? My palm is not submerged in a bathtub BTW, I am just trying to make a clear point. Normally, mimicing natural habit is a good idea or at least a good starting point, and from that perspective the bathtub should be great, right?

I don't want to start a discussion on which specific varieties of soil mixes that are good, there are other threads for that, and it is a matter of aeration and structure etc, so there are 100 options, and in any case watering every 2 days is unacceptable for most people. But if you have experience of problems in a specific mix or watering sceme that would be nice to know. Water in bowl for Lipstick is great says many in this forum.

Here's a picture showing growth over 3 years (pics are to scale):

594cbcc84a449_Growth161210(orig16-20in).

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1 hour ago, David_Sweden said:

Thanks for the reply. But what I am asking for primarily is to help me understand why a palm that normally lives in waterlogged soil would not like to live in an apartment permanently soaked in water, even submerged in a bathtub? Or maybe it does like it? My palm is not submerged in a bathtub BTW, I am just trying to make a clear point. Normally, mimicing natural habit is a good idea or at least a good starting point, and from that perspective the bathtub should be great, right?

I don't want to start a discussion on which specific varieties of soil mixes that are good, there are other threads for that, and it is a matter of aeration and structure etc, so there are 100 options, and in any case watering every 2 days is unacceptable for most people. But if you have experience of problems in a specific mix or watering sceme that would be nice to know. Water in bowl for Lipstick is great says many in this forum.

Here's a picture showing growth over 3 years (pics are to scale):

594cbcc84a449_Growth161210(orig16-20in).

Bowls and tubs are closed systems. A lot of bad things are more likely to happen in closed systems.  

Lakes and swamps, while they might appear closed, are not really.  Lots of good biology happening in lakes and swamps.  

Think of fish in an aquarium vs in a lake.  Left without human intervention and technology, which system is likely to keep the fish alive the longest and healthiest?  

 

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I think what a species is "used to" in it's native environment should only be taken as a guideline when trying to grow them indoors because like Hammer said, many other things are going on that can't be seen or even duplicated for that matter. All that means is a lot of trial and error when trying to make a particular species happy.

From your pictures it sure seems like your doing everything just right...

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8 hours ago, Hammer said:

Bowls and tubs are closed systems. A lot of bad things are more likely to happen in closed systems.  

Lakes and swamps, while they might appear closed, are not really.  Lots of good biology happening in lakes and swamps.  

Think of fish in an aquarium vs in a lake.  Left without human intervention and technology, which system is likely to keep the fish alive the longest and healthiest?  

 

Exactly my thoughts. Waterlogged potted plants will rot away while the same species might thrive in a swampy area. A complex and diverse ecosystem (think mostly microorganisms) will not be possible in a small pot because there are too many factors from the swamp left out. There is no equilibrium and just one or a few microorganisms wil get the upperhand and start feeding on the plant (called rotting away). It's best to give these microorganisms as little chance as possible. For instance with very fast draining soils and very frequent waterings.

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www.facebook.com/#!/Totallycoconuts

Amsterdam,

The Netherlands

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Thanks, great ideas.

Water standing still could be explanation (microorganism disorder being cause then, not suffocation). If so, drainage would be unimportant, and e g watering excessively every day would be good, even if left sitting in water permanently.

Something thatmight contradict this idea is that Lipstick Palms are happy being permanently submerged in water, some in ponds, some with saucers, and  these 2 palms have very similar natural habitats. Also, I have an indication roots have been growing lately: Since I added the bowl I noticed the roots were not able to reach to empty the last 2 mm - until 3 weeks ago. And I also noticed the soil is very evenly moist (using moisture meter), which might indicate healthy root system.

Regarding drainage requirement, I read here it wants "very moist, humus-rich soil with average drainage.", it doesn't say it requires great drainage and to avoid humus (including peat humus). I don't know the general credibility of that site but this article is written by "Yard Doc Carol" Carol Cloud Bailey, with a Masters degree from Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University and 30 years of experience so it sounds rather credible, would be nice to know what she bases that on though.

In the first forum thread I linked to above, Trópico says he is sure all his Ramsayi died because of poorly drained commercial mix, and that it started with new fronds dying; SubTropicRay and "cfkingfish" say Ramsayis seem to prefer small containers and never go rootbound so perhaps potting up is good to avoid, and Phil says they do better if they get some sun.

In the 2nd forum thread I linked to in my initial post, "Matt in SD" says his Ramsayis looked good until he potted them up from 2G to 5G pots (mine is 9L e g 2.4G) and he then also went from "crappy" to "good" mix. "Surf Guy" had 3 outdoors and one in greenhouse, all in 5G pots, and the outdoors ones did fine but not the one in greenhouse. And "Dypsisdean" concurrs with Phil regarding how much better they do if they get some sun.

Regarding possible suffocation, I've had more problems since I repotted to 9L pot even before I started to keep water in bowl. On the other hand this is a photo (from this site) of a Licuala Spinosa with root suffocation, and paleness is very uniform, and mine is not, it has only been small areas, usually close to tips, and mostly parts that get most light:

Fe_def_on_Licuala_caused_by_soil_breakdo

Another idea I had is that Ramsayi seems to have all aerial roots very close to the main stem (close to soil level) and for some reason many of these were clogged by packed dirt, so maybe cleaning off packed dirt could be important (and make sure that part is planted above soil level)? It has "a conical mass of aerial roots at the base" according to this site; I don't know credibility and source but he seems to have written a bunch of Italian books about plants, animals etc, and when I look at my palm it seems to have such a ring.

Thanks sashaeffer, it did do very well until when the pic was taken (and still growing very well). Then I had some dry parts on new leaves which I think is due to the soil getting a bit too dry one time. That's one reason why I added to bowl. Right now I'm trying to figure out what the safest way is: Keep it extra wet, or avoid keeping it too wet, or some other action. For now I think I will clean off dense dirt from aerial roots, avoid water in bowl and let moisture level drop to "clearly moist but not wet" before watering, and see how that goes. What do you all think about that?

One tricky thing to decide on in general is that since I can measure the soil moisture level I know it can be a bit uneven (even though this palm has rather uniform moisture) and question is if it is best to allow part of root to go dry to avoid watering when some part is still wet, or if I should water before any part is dry, since this palm is used to never going dry in its habitat? Sooner or later all plants get more or less rootbound with much roots at the bottom and to keep the roots at the bottom non-dry is probably impossible unless you keep water in the bowl or repot very swiftly. My Peltata has done fine when it has been a bit rootbound at bottom though, with unavoidable dryness there, so I think I will allow it to go partially dry.

 

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I have 2 potted L. ramsayi (a 4" from Floribunda and a gallon from a member's plant sale at Fairchild) and they do quite fine drying out occasionally. I do live in a sub-tropical climate, but our winters are very dry and I even let them dry just a bit then. It's a tough plant!

Naples (inland), FL - technically 10a but more like 9b in the winter :hmm:

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...however, my C. renda quite prefers sitting in a dish of water (only ever rain water or distilled water). It has been anywhere from 2" deep to 1/2" deep. I also do this for J. altifrons and J. magnifica. Was doing it for mapu as well until I accidentally over-fertilized and killed it. :crying:

Naples (inland), FL - technically 10a but more like 9b in the winter :hmm:

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Thanks Missi, that's very interesting. So far I've kept my Licualas wet (meaning "more than moist") but it sounds like it might actually prefer " normal" watering. And it seems pretty clear to me now that even though the Licualas and Lipstick live in similar habitats, they still have different preferences. 

Meanwhile, as I wrote in a thread on the Lipstick palm, even though many confirm it does very well being flooded, it also likes normal watering (i e, to water when moist, not wet or dry), so you dont need to keep it wet (although better to "err up")

A question: When you say your Ramsayi did well when it got dry, do you mean the entire root system being dry for sure (and for how long), and no damage at all? (Doing that to a Lipstick would instantly kill it, or so I read in this forum.)

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On 6/24/2017, 5:49:28, David_Sweden said:

Thanks, great ideas.

Water standing still could be explanation (microorganism disorder being cause then, not suffocation). If so, drainage would be unimportant, and e g watering excessively every day would be good, even if left sitting in water permanently.

Something thatmight contradict this idea is that Lipstick Palms are happy being permanently submerged in water, some in ponds, some with saucers, and  these 2 palms have very similar natural habitats. Also, I have an indication roots have been growing lately: Since I added the bowl I noticed the roots were not able to reach to empty the last 2 mm - until 3 weeks ago. And I also noticed the soil is very evenly moist (using moisture meter), which might indicate healthy root system.

Regarding drainage requirement, I read here it wants "very moist, humus-rich soil with average drainage.", it doesn't say it requires great drainage and to avoid humus (including peat humus). I don't know the general credibility of that site but this article is written by "Yard Doc Carol" Carol Cloud Bailey, with a Masters degree from Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University and 30 years of experience so it sounds rather credible, would be nice to know what she bases that on though.

In the first forum thread I linked to above, Trópico says he is sure all his Ramsayi died because of poorly drained commercial mix, and that it started with new fronds dying; SubTropicRay and "cfkingfish" say Ramsayis seem to prefer small containers and never go rootbound so perhaps potting up is good to avoid, and Phil says they do better if they get some sun.

In the 2nd forum thread I linked to in my initial post, "Matt in SD" says his Ramsayis looked good until he potted them up from 2G to 5G pots (mine is 9L e g 2.4G) and he then also went from "crappy" to "good" mix. "Surf Guy" had 3 outdoors and one in greenhouse, all in 5G pots, and the outdoors ones did fine but not the one in greenhouse. And "Dypsisdean" concurrs with Phil regarding how much better they do if they get some sun.

Regarding possible suffocation, I've had more problems since I repotted to 9L pot even before I started to keep water in bowl. On the other hand this is a photo (from this site) of a Licuala Spinosa with root suffocation, and paleness is very uniform, and mine is not, it has only been small areas, usually close to tips, and mostly parts that get most light:

Fe_def_on_Licuala_caused_by_soil_breakdo

Another idea I had is that Ramsayi seems to have all aerial roots very close to the main stem (close to soil level) and for some reason many of these were clogged by packed dirt, so maybe cleaning off packed dirt could be important (and make sure that part is planted above soil level)? It has "a conical mass of aerial roots at the base" according to this site; I don't know credibility and source but he seems to have written a bunch of Italian books about plants, animals etc, and when I look at my palm it seems to have such a ring.

Thanks sashaeffer, it did do very well until when the pic was taken (and still growing very well). Then I had some dry parts on new leaves which I think is due to the soil getting a bit too dry one time. That's one reason why I added to bowl. Right now I'm trying to figure out what the safest way is: Keep it extra wet, or avoid keeping it too wet, or some other action. For now I think I will clean off dense dirt from aerial roots, avoid water in bowl and let moisture level drop to "clearly moist but not wet" before watering, and see how that goes. What do you all think about that?

One tricky thing to decide on in general is that since I can measure the soil moisture level I know it can be a bit uneven (even though this palm has rather uniform moisture) and question is if it is best to allow part of root to go dry to avoid watering when some part is still wet, or if I should water before any part is dry, since this palm is used to never going dry in its habitat? Sooner or later all plants get more or less rootbound with much roots at the bottom and to keep the roots at the bottom non-dry is probably impossible unless you keep water in the bowl or repot very swiftly. My Peltata has done fine when it has been a bit rootbound at bottom though, with unavoidable dryness there, so I think I will allow it to go partially dry.

 

Thank you for sharing all of your research findings, and the links as well! I've read through everything and found it fascinating! I didn't know ramsayi gets aerial roots!

While in my above comments, I mentioned I have let my ramsayis dry out on occasion, I'd like to add that it was certainly not on purpose. Also, when I misted them daily in dry season, I always made sure to mist the "trunk" and base of the "trunk" as well, as I do with all of my potted palms. And water every 2-3 days with rain water.

Naples (inland), FL - technically 10a but more like 9b in the winter :hmm:

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Thanks Missi. But was there no brown leafs at all when it accidentally dried out? And was soil completely dry or just top layer? Would be interesting to know your experience.

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8 hours ago, David_Sweden said:

Thanks Missi. But was there no brown leafs at all when it accidentally dried out? And was soil completely dry or just top layer? Would be interesting to know your experience.

No sir, no brown leaf tips other than the ones my gallon size had when I bought it at the plant sale. The 4" container one from Floribunda completely dried out, because it is mainly black lava pebbles. Not sure if my gallon size one's soil completely dried out, but I'm assuming so because I did notice the soil was shrunk away from the pot sides a couple times (which made me panic and obviously immediately water!). No damage! Maybe I should count my lucky stars? I should post pics of them tonight!

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Naples (inland), FL - technically 10a but more like 9b in the winter :hmm:

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I think that gives me some valuable clues how to water mine. For 3 years i've made sure soil stayed wet (i e not only moist) and they've done really well and grown a lot, except for some very minor brown tipping 1-2 mm here and there. But i suspect my Ramsayi feels less good since i repotted and even let it sit in water a bit, and the newest fronds didnt add much height. Now i think i will hold water until just a bit moist. 

Yed it would be great to see pics :-)

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As promised, here are my two humble little L. ramsayi :wub:

The brown tips on the larger one are from before I had it. I was a little zealous in trimming fronds recently. Usually I like to leave them on until they're completely brown, so the palm has had a chance to take back the nutrients, but I get a little impatient with my potted palms :blush:

Edit: The Pinanga caesia to the left of the small ramsayi, in the second pic, also does surprisingly well when occasionally dried out, I'm embarrassed to admit. :blush:

 

IMG_8420.JPG

IMG_8419.JPG

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Naples (inland), FL - technically 10a but more like 9b in the winter :hmm:

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Very nice :-) Unfortunately i cant delete the emoticons on my phone...

:mellow::mellow:

I meant :D:D

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Regarding my Licuala Peltata var sumawongii, I never left water standing on the tray, but I always did water it while still wet (not just "moist"). But when I read about it at Palmpedia now, it does not live in swamps, so maybe it does best with regular watering, meaning don't water before it is just "moist". Funny how you can't draw conclusions based neither on habitat nor on both being Licualas then. Meanwhile I've made a note years ago that both of these have aerial roots which let them breathe even in swamps, and that Licualas should never dry out and like it wet. Where did I read that? Right, here it says exactly that. Who to trust? Paul Craft seems very knowledgeable on Licualas, and Palmpedia, although very useful, seems to be a collage of texts & pics from the whole internet, not the least by Paul Craft. Seems to me Paul Craft is likely to be right after all? Back to square 1 maybe then: If they have aerial roots and like it wet, shouldn't they do well even in a bathtub then?

BTW Missi, for how long have you had them? Since you seem to have the name tags still, it looks like you got them very recently?!

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19 hours ago, David_Sweden said:

Regarding my Licuala Peltata var sumawongii, I never left water standing on the tray, but I always did water it while still wet (not just "moist"). But when I read about it at Palmpedia now, it does not live in swamps, so maybe it does best with regular watering, meaning don't water before it is just "moist". Funny how you can't draw conclusions based neither on habitat nor on both being Licualas then. Meanwhile I've made a note years ago that both of these have aerial roots which let them breathe even in swamps, and that Licualas should never dry out and like it wet. Where did I read that? Right, here it says exactly that. Who to trust? Paul Craft seems very knowledgeable on Licualas, and Palmpedia, although very useful, seems to be a collage of texts & pics from the whole internet, not the least by Paul Craft. Seems to me Paul Craft is likely to be right after all? Back to square 1 maybe then: If they have aerial roots and like it wet, shouldn't they do well even in a bathtub then?

BTW Missi, for how long have you had them? Since you seem to have the name tags still, it looks like you got them very recently?!

I've had the 1 gal. since last October, and the 4" since last summer. I've tried searching photos of ramsayi, or any other Licuala, with aerial roots, but can't seem to find any examples.

Naples (inland), FL - technically 10a but more like 9b in the winter :hmm:

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David what I realized in the end for the licualas that I grow is they like RAIN and in abundance. The two L. Ramsayi that survived went from pale green with brown to shiny green when I relocated them to an area where they got plenty of rain and sprinkler system water. Sadly my biggest died last year to lack of watering while I was on vacation (poor location choice). I still have the other one, very small and sloooow, and also L. dasyantha and an un-IDd spinosa-like in the ground that I have to supplement watering when no rain. So to sum it up, give them plenty of moving water.

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Frank

 

Zone 9b pine flatlands

humid/hot summers; dry/cool winters

with yearly freezes

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Thanks for the valuable input Frank. Someone else wrote Licualas do well in small pots since they have rather small root system, maybe that's one explanation why they need ample watering outdoors?

One funny thing I noticed about the 3 palms I've been keeping in wet soil for 1-3 years (the two Licualas and the Lipstick) is that there are no springtails or sour smell or any other problem I feared would come from being permanently wet, I figured they have some ability to affect the soil so that it is "liveable" even when damp. Meanwhile, any other plant that I keep half as wet easily gets springtails and sour smell.

I've been thinking so far that the reason the newest leaf on my Ramsayi in getting pale then brown is because it got a bit dry once, but now I place my bets on that there is too much (standing) water and not enough oxygen.

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"Yard Doc Carol" was nice enough to send me sources for her information, which I just had time to read. Some useful quotes:

Australian Tropical Rainforest Plants has this description of Distribution and Ecology: "Occurs in NEQ from about Cooktown, south to about Ingham. Altitudinal range from near sea level to 1100 m. Occurs in rainforest, swamp forest, mangroves, littoral forest and in diverse riparian and riverine habitats, on various soil types."

Palm Beach Palm & Cycad Society say "The two largest specimens have been in the ground for 15 years and are five to six feet tall with 40 inch diameter leaves on 36 inch long petioles." /.../ "They grow in low swampy rain forest." /.../ "Licuala peltata is larger but is finicky here in Palm Beach County. I have lost five of the six I have planted. However, I have had a 100 percent success rate growing the grand Licuala ramsayi. I have two specimens growing on high ground and four others growing in low-lying wet areas. They are all growing well"

They also have a table of Growing conditions, incorporating: "Soil: Sand over a layer of hardpan (pineland flatwood habitat). Flooding: Periodic inundation in sandy soil acceptable. Light: Deep shade."

And The International Palm Society had an edition about Ramsayi in 2005, which among other things said: "Occurs as a sub-canopy element in rainforest, swamp forest, mangroves, and in diverse riparian and riverine habitats, on various soil types." and "Licuala ramsayi var. tuckeri has become common in cultivation and is reputedly more amenable to cultivation than L. ramsayi var. ramsayi. The new variety is also reported to flower and fruit throughout the year, unlike L. ramsayi var. ramsayi in which flowering and fruiting is sporadic and may not occur every year."

So it sems clear to me they do grow in standing water (mangrove is like a pond with hot dirty water, right?), in various soil types. Not sure what they mean by "Sand over a layer of hardpan" exactly, sounds like clay with some coarse sand on top? Wikipedia has a pic of what I think is Pineland Flatwood, and they say Flatwood is a soil type with impaired drainage and water just a few dm deep. Hm. Do they mean the sand is a meter or two deep and filled with standing water and under that clay with no accessible water?

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19 hours ago, David_Sweden said:

"Yard Doc Carol" was nice enough to send me sources for her information, which I just had time to read. Some useful quotes:

Australian Tropical Rainforest Plants has this description of Distribution and Ecology: "Occurs in NEQ from about Cooktown, south to about Ingham. Altitudinal range from near sea level to 1100 m. Occurs in rainforest, swamp forest, mangroves, littoral forest and in diverse riparian and riverine habitats, on various soil types."

Palm Beach Palm & Cycad Society say "The two largest specimens have been in the ground for 15 years and are five to six feet tall with 40 inch diameter leaves on 36 inch long petioles." /.../ "They grow in low swampy rain forest." /.../ "Licuala peltata is larger but is finicky here in Palm Beach County. I have lost five of the six I have planted. However, I have had a 100 percent success rate growing the grand Licuala ramsayi. I have two specimens growing on high ground and four others growing in low-lying wet areas. They are all growing well"

They also have a table of Growing conditions, incorporating: "Soil: Sand over a layer of hardpan (pineland flatwood habitat). Flooding: Periodic inundation in sandy soil acceptable. Light: Deep shade."

And The International Palm Society had an edition about Ramsayi in 2005, which among other things said: "Occurs as a sub-canopy element in rainforest, swamp forest, mangroves, and in diverse riparian and riverine habitats, on various soil types." and "Licuala ramsayi var. tuckeri has become common in cultivation and is reputedly more amenable to cultivation than L. ramsayi var. ramsayi. The new variety is also reported to flower and fruit throughout the year, unlike L. ramsayi var. ramsayi in which flowering and fruiting is sporadic and may not occur every year."

So it sems clear to me they do grow in standing water (mangrove is like a pond with hot dirty water, right?), in various soil types. Not sure what they mean by "Sand over a layer of hardpan" exactly, sounds like clay with some coarse sand on top? Wikipedia has a pic of what I think is Pineland Flatwood, and they say Flatwood is a soil type with impaired drainage and water just a few dm deep. Hm. Do they mean the sand is a meter or two deep and filled with standing water and under that clay with no accessible water?

I know it says they grow in deep shade, but when you do a Google Image search for L. ramsayi, it doesn't show them growing in deep shade in habitat. What are your thoughts on this? Also, interesting to see sand over clay...perhaps humusy soil is not the way to go. Perhaps they need more alkaline substrate?

Naples (inland), FL - technically 10a but more like 9b in the winter :hmm:

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20 hours ago, Missi said:

I know it says they grow in deep shade, but when you do a Google Image search for L. ramsayi, it doesn't show them growing in deep shade in habitat.

The way I understand it, they want "full shade" (meaning no direct sun or even dappled light) when young but can handle direct sun when mature, just like they usually say about all palms which grow in rainforests and are protected from sun when young. But I'm taking my chances they don't mind a bit of morning sun by now, although I also have a lace curtain that lowers light flux by about 50%. Most of the fronds don't see direct sunlight at all even though they are right by my NNE window. Those live on artificial light.

I used to aim at max 6 or 7 kilolux (klx) with my lamps but now I aim at up to 5 klx on the Licualas, and all fronds need about 1 klx on at least part of it to survive. I use CMH spots. Note: One could argue that one shouldn't trust lux meters since lux meters are adapted to human vision but I believe they should work fine as long as you use a lamp with essential parts of spectrum balanced similar to sun light, which I believe is the case for e g fluorescent light and Ceramic Metal Halide. At least when it comes to the chlorophyll parts. Other parts of the spectrum also has some effect. I also don't believe it matters much if you have "warm" or "cold" white light, and if it is intended as grow light or not. Just don't use white LEDs (LED lamps must be a mix of colored LEDs for plants).

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To the left is the 2nd newest frond, it got pale areas then in a few days brown and rumpled. To the right the newest frond that's been opening up the last 2 weeks, so far perfectly green and not even as pale as new leaves often are. I really hope I am going the right way with this now..

170708b.thumb.JPG.c760f5a2e7d5fb051d894e

If I look through my old notes, reason I worried about dryness (and reason for adding deep bowl with water in it) is that after a while of course roots start to curl up at the bottom (approaching being "root bound"), and those roots make bottom part dry up much quicker than rest of soil, and even after potting up, existing pots are rather wide so they don't add much to height. For most plants you don't worry too much about this (e g my Lipstick does great even if bottom dry and it is getting really crowded with roots from top to bottom and time to repot soon but I water while partially still wet and it does great), but I am asking myself if plants which naturally are always wet might hate when roots at bottom go dry? Not easy to fix, can only think of making a self watering system that waters from below to keep soil plenty moist but not really wet, and it would be a challenge to get it to work with more roots than soil at the bottom.

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Hard to tell from the photos exactly but you may have spider mites.  Check the backs of the leaves.  If so, mix up a spray bottle of water and Dawn dish soap.  Spray generously, especially on the back side of the leaves. 

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10 hours ago, David_Sweden said:

To the left is the 2nd newest frond, it got pale areas then in a few days brown and rumpled. To the right the newest frond that's been opening up the last 2 weeks, so far perfectly green and not even as pale as new leaves often are. I really hope I am going the right way with this now..

170708b.thumb.JPG.c760f5a2e7d5fb051d894e

If I look through my old notes, reason I worried about dryness (and reason for adding deep bowl with water in it) is that after a while of course roots start to curl up at the bottom (approaching being "root bound"), and those roots make bottom part dry up much quicker than rest of soil, and even after potting up, existing pots are rather wide so they don't add much to height. For most plants you don't worry too much about this (e g my Lipstick does great even if bottom dry and it is getting really crowded with roots from top to bottom and time to repot soon but I water while partially still wet and it does great), but I am asking myself if plants which naturally are always wet might hate when roots at bottom go dry? Not easy to fix, can only think of making a self watering system that waters from below to keep soil plenty moist but not really wet, and it would be a challenge to get it to work with more roots than soil at the bottom.

It looks to me like a damage we have often during our dark winters here:

The reasons may be (1) soggy soil (nitrate > nitrite) or (2) too much fertilizer or (3) dry parts inside / at the bottom of the soil. And wet is not always equal wet. What “wet“ palms need is fresh O2 rich water, but what will kill them is standing water without enough O2 (NO3 —> NO2).

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8 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

What “wet“ palms need is fresh O2 rich water, but what will kill them is standing water without enough O2 (NO3 —> NO2).

This got me thinking about a large reservoir of standing collected rainwater. I use this water for my plants, but could it be there's not much oxigen in it? Maybe use a little aquarium airpump to put in some oxigen?

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3 hours ago, Kai said:

This got me thinking about a large reservoir of standing collected rainwater. I use this water for my plants, but could it be there's not much oxigen in it? Maybe use a little aquarium airpump to put in some oxigen?

Kai, don’t worry. If you use a fast draining soil and water regularly then there will be enough O2 in your soil (esp. with Seramis). Only standing soil could make problems, but even with small pots during summer that (i.e. wet feet) may be ok. But when winter is coming the problems come, too. But you don’t see the damages at once. Only in late spring when you notice damages like in David’s last photo you are wondering why and when this happened and what might be the cause.

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On 7/8/2017, 6:15:37, David_Sweden said:

The way I understand it, they want "full shade" (meaning no direct sun or even dappled light) when young but can handle direct sun when mature, just like they usually say about all palms which grow in rainforests and are protected from sun when young. But I'm taking my chances they don't mind a bit of morning sun by now, although I also have a lace curtain that lowers light flux by about 50%. Most of the fronds don't see direct sunlight at all even though they are right by my NNE window. Those live on artificial light.

I used to aim at max 6 or 7 kilolux (klx) with my lamps but now I aim at up to 5 klx on the Licualas, and all fronds need about 1 klx on at least part of it to survive. I use CMH spots. Note: One could argue that one shouldn't trust lux meters since lux meters are adapted to human vision but I believe they should work fine as long as you use a lamp with essential parts of spectrum balanced similar to sun light, which I believe is the case for e g fluorescent light and Ceramic Metal Halide. At least when it comes to the chlorophyll parts. Other parts of the spectrum also has some effect. I also don't believe it matters much if you have "warm" or "cold" white light, and if it is intended as grow light or not. Just don't use white LEDs (LED lamps must be a mix of colored LEDs for plants).

Mine get dappled morning sun filtered through patio screen. Still green as can be!

Naples (inland), FL - technically 10a but more like 9b in the winter :hmm:

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Thanks guys & gals.

It's not mites. And I've used ½ dose liquid fert every watering like always and RO water since 9 months so probably not too much fert or buildup of salt. It's time for leaching soon but with RO water it should be quite clean still. It's been kept wet and even with up to 2 cm water in bowl so some risk for soggyness I suppose but every time I water I remove excess water from bowl that comes from watering then add fresh water, and my Lipstick has been kept even more wet part of the time. But a difference with the Lipstick is the rather aggressive root growth, the Licuala roots are much slower. No dry spot, except at very bottom before January, but it is almost impossible to completely avoid dryness at bottom if lots of roots there unless keeping water in bowl or keeping it all very wet, even more so with fast draining soil. I bet you are still basically right though: Not enough oxygen to roots might be the problem. And it's had proper light & humidity all winter. For now I'll avoid water in bowl and not water until on verge between moist and wet. And leach it soon. Later this summer I hope I will have some good long term plan.

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David, here's looking at L. ramsayi from my experience growing them for years now. 

The key here in Hawaii, is the ambient humidity and warm year around temps. Starting out with small lanai plants, I watered them when I remembered to and in between watering they would often dry out, almost completely. Always looked great, wet, dry, or in between. When they require repotting, I just use soil from the yard, mix with some commercial potting soil, add a small amount of black cinder and pot them up. I've used this method for years now and have never, to my knowledge, had any problems. I have so many palms in pots and in the ground, that using specialized products in specific ratios is impractical and honestly, the results I achieve are gratifying. I'm sure a commercial grower would be more precise with methods, products, and routines, but for me it's totally unnecessary.

Indoor plants standing in a shallow water container in a conditioned space probably helps, but it can't replace a humid climate with all the microbes, worms, wind and rain. 

I've been to Australia and have seen L. ramsayi in habit, in full sun and standing in a swamp, a Cassowary or two.......just fabulous. 

My container plants finally got so large I had to plant them out, again in full, (Hilo), sun and they only get watered when it rains. 

(I do mulch which helps immensely.) I'll post a photo later on today.

These are tough palms and incredibly adaptable to different conditions if provided the most basic requirements.

Most, not all, Licualas are tough palms.

Tim 

 

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Tim

Hilo, Hawaii

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Thanks Tim. That definitely kills any notion I might have had about them requiring to be wet and never go dry, just like Missy said (even though Lipstick palms are known for dying immediately if they ever get dry).

I have this idea which someone will have to prove wrong to me, that there is a way to treat plants that works for any plant: Good drainage, water when moist throughout (not dry, not wet), water from top and empty excess from saucer, aim light at "bright shade" (2-3 klx, no frond < 1 klx, none > 5 klx), humidity 50 to 60%. Most people say Lipstick palms must be kept wet but I proved for sure that even my seedling did very well when watered like I described. And the same for succulents. Then off course rather water too early than too late with Lipstick and the opposite with succulents. So from that point of view, I guess this scheme is what feels safest to me when I don't feel sure. And right now I'm hoping the Ramsayi has been doing bad because of too little oxygen, due to soil being too wet, water in saucer and bigger pot, so that it will recover now.

Living on Hawaii is cheating though ;-) I believe that when palm lovers in Sweden die they get re-born on Hawaii :-)

Will be nice to see those photos :-)

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Yes, in a way, it is like cheating, but we still have challenges we have to deal with on a day to day basis. 

I lived in San Diego for many years and although on the humid side along the coast, we would go without rain for 6-8 months at a time. That was killer and 

one had to be 'on their toes' much of the time for fear of potted and in ground plants totally drying out.

One other thing about potted plants and standing water is the salt build up that the roots intake that can be deadly. 

My feeling is great drainage, high humidity, and of course decent soil are the most important elements, which is a no brainer. Luckily I'm on a slope and the drainage is phenomenal.

Here in Hilo,  there is nothing like the copious rainfall. The natural irrigation lends a different dimension to the health and survival of palm trees.  

 

Here are some photos of a few of the Licuala in the garden. 

1. L. ramsayi

2. L. khoonmengii

3. L. peltata 'Sumawongii'

4. L. naumanii

5. L. grandis

P1040135.jpg

IMG_2685.jpg

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Tim

Hilo, Hawaii

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Here are the rest.

Tim

 

BTW, some of my best palm buddies here on the island are Swedes. They are all more proficient in english than I am too. 

P1010535.jpg

P1030807.jpg

P1040323.jpg

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Tim

Hilo, Hawaii

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Wow! Licuala Forest! Looks more lika a park than a garden! Mind if my Licualas move in - I can build a small shed right next to them for me ?! :-)

What's the plants in pic #4 to the left and right with big pointy leaves? I know I've seen them before. Beautiful.

PS Not much salt buildup in my plants even when I've tried to leave 2 cm in bowl (which I still do with my Rhopalostylis baueri and have done for over a year now), because I use RO water, and water when bowl dry until a few cm comes out in bowl then empty bowl then add fresh water (with fert), and I've also leached all plants 2-3 times/year (will do it 1-2 times now that I use RO water). I've also had humidity regulated between 45 and 55% since autumn, and during winter gave it a boost to 65% from morning to noon, but the increased humidity hasn't done any wonders for them, neither has RO. Leaching seems to void need for RO pretty much. Still might continue with RO since I imagine buildup of calcium etc that won't go away by leaching should be much less and I imagine it can be a problem for old plants if you never change soil (which maybe one should).

 

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Aloha David, thanks for the thumbs up. 

The palms you were asking about are Cyphosperma tanga from Fiji. One of my favorites as well.

Drop a note from time to time, I'll do the same.

 

Tim

Tim

Hilo, Hawaii

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... When I think about it, maybe I've been a bit optimistic about impact of RO water. I used to leach 3 times per year and 3 times soil volume for most sensitive plants (2 times/yr and 2 times vol for less sensitive like Kentia), but with RO i planned to do it twice per year for the sensitive ones and once for the less sensitive, and I realize now I haven't done it in 9 months. I thought RO would have great effect (since I've seen residue from tap water in cooking pots after boiling water several times) but maybe it doesn't. I even measured cleanliness of RO water and it seems fine. And every watering I use much water so that I empty a few DL from saucer. Still.. Time for leaching I think. But for the Ramsayi I don't think leaching is the only issue. I bet it is also a bit low on oxygen in soil.

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  • 2 months later...

I stumbled on this article and it's uncanny how well it fits my symptoms and situation (even the curling):

Symptoms of ammonium toxicity:
In bedding plants and plugs, symptoms appear first in younger leaves. Leaves exhibit yellowing (chlorosis) between the veins. This can progress to scattered brown (necrotic) spots, On more mature crops, mid to older leaves are affected. Depending on plant species, the edges of leaves may curl upward or downward. Root growth is impeded and root tips may die, which bocornes an entry point for root diseases.

Apparently ammonium (NH4+) is speedily converted to nitrate (NO3-) by bacteria, but these bacteria don't do well if it is cold or lack of oxygen. And due to relatively compact soil, increased soil volume after repotting and belief that this palm likes wet soil, there has been little oxygen for sure. The fert I use has 40% NH4+ and 60% NO3-, I will switch to one with 5% NH4+. NH4+ is toxic if in high concentrations and accumulates due to CEC of soil. NO3- is harmless and also leaches easily. I should also leach the soil and of course try to make sure oxygen gets in there, initially by not watering until barely moist an scraping off a couple of cm of the top soil, and preferably also change soil.

There also is a tip in the PDF how to use gypsum if severly affected. BTW ammonium is both produced and consumed by a number of processes (at least 80) within plants, and it might also be possible to use nitrate  and  potassium to antagonize ammonium toxicity says this PDF. Reason for NH4+ in fert seems to just be the possible advantage of it leaching much less than NO3- but apparently NH4+ is not necessary in fert if you apply fert each watering.

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  • 11 months later...

I have come to the conclusion my two Licualas will never recover so I decided to throw them out soon. They never recovered from the decline that started spring/summer 2017. Since 170730 my Peltata hasn't grown and has lost several leaves; my Ramsayi has kept pushing out new fronds at a good pace but they stay green only for a few weeks then dry up. I believe I have tried everything and then some. The only thing I can imagine that I haven't tried is to plant them in the ground but I live in a too cold country. I imagine shipping to a warm country is too costly so no one is interested especially when they don't look that good. It is very sad to throw them out but even sadder to have watched them do badly for 13 months, and worst of all is that I don't know if I ever want to attempt Licualas again since I don't know what I did wrong. :crying:  If I ever do attempt that then I think I would make sure pot is rather too small than too big (especially tallness), well draining soil, water when slightly moist (not dry and not leave standing in water), leach every 4 months, maybe use H2O2, and take extra good care during repotting to make sure roots remain moist (by misting at least every 2 minutes or dip the whole thing in water).

PeltataSlides.thumb.jpg.e4c63c9d44051d77

My main theory for the Peltata is that the sol mix 170730 had too bad drainage, and added shock from new repotting only 3½ months later, and that soil status wasn't ideal to begin with (Peltata 170730 had roots mainly at top and bottom and there very densely, and soil in those areas a bit old and impossible to remove) and worse due to didn't leach between 161009-170716, and I have no notes on how well I kept roots moist during repotting. For Ramsayi the same but added trauma of leaving in standing water for long periods and having repotted to bigger pot.

Chronological events of interest for the Ramsayi:

  • 161120 potted up to 12L, still using my usual ready bought peat mix (about 50% light & dark peat) to which I added 20-25 vol% sand 2-4mm, and ordinary liquid fert ½ dose at every watering, since September with RO water (before that tap water, rather clean though). Always leached every 4 months except a gap of 9 months 161009-170716 when I forgot.
  • 170124 changed from normal saucer to deep saucer normally filled with water. 
  • 170204 first noticed the 2nd newest front getting paler on a couple of leaves. 
  • 170603 was the first day a leaf on a newer frond had gotten significantly dry; before then all leaves essentially looked very good. 
  • 170730 repotted to same pot with new peat mix (50% light peat, 40% sifted vermiculite 1-5mm, 10% sand 2-4mm) I had tested out to have best drainage, but later discovered that a mix which drains well at 1st watering can get increasingly worse drainage for every watering like this certainly did; was able to exchange about 75% of the soil; lower 3cm very compactly root bound impossible to untangle. 
  • 171111 repotted to same pot to 70% coir (sifted & rinsed) and 30% seramis. 
  • 180602 Started new watering idea: First with 1½L plain tap water (enough for it to come out the bottom; the idea is to rinse out "standing water" and sourness) then 1½L tap water mixed with H2O2 (to get 0,08%) and "ordinary" liquid fert. 180726 changed to "Gold Label" Dutch liquid fert especially for coir. Also, last 2 weeks I tried letting soil go quite dry between waterings (not "slightly moist" like before), I can't see any positive signs of this, but the Peltata definitely doesn't like it.

RamsayiSlide.thumb.jpg.481dabba4336f033b

Misc notes (focused on Ramsayi):

  • Five times have I cut off the 2nd newest frond because it was mostly dried up.
  • My Rh Baueri and Miniature Coconut Palm underwent very similar repottings 170730 and 171111 but suffered only slightly from them (and the Minicoco is slow at penetrating the soil like the Licualas, the Baueri is the opposite). 
  • Normally there has been 2½ months between new fronds, and still today it is putting out new fronds quite speedily (last interval 3 months; before that 4½). Typical development of a new frond is that it is perfectly green until 2½-3 weeks after fully open, then gradually gets paler but still mostly green and looks very nice until 8 weeks after fully open, then more and more dry parts within a few weeks. It is when it is supposed to go from pale green to dark green that it rather becomes dappled (and striped) green (even dark green) and yellow (or pale green). I remember one frond standing out as remaining green much longer than normal and managing to become to a very large degree dark green.
  • One thing I find quite hopeless is when you notice that it has probably reacted to the last time you watered because it is impossible to tell if it disliked how dry it got before watered or how wet it got after watered. And the delayed reaction also makes it hard.
  • Humidity has been kept at 40-65% (usually 45-55%).
  • No bugs.
  • Drainage is stellar with this coir so drainage can not in itself be explanation. However I am a bit suspiscious about coir, or maybe rather any very well drained mix, since I noted in succulents, which I let run completely dry, that there are still springtails, and my theory is that the coarseness gives poor contact between the grains when dry so that most of the center of the soil mix can be fully dry while small specks at the edges can remain moist.
  • Watering frequency always was 4-7 days (when "slightly moist" throughout). 
  • 0,08% H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) was an experiment I started, I never heard of anyone using H2O2 when watering potted plants, but I know it is used in related areas: When used during sowing of seeds it has been noted that some seeds even start sprouting while in H2O2 for a number of hours, and it is used to oxygenate fish tanks, and of course in hydroponics. My idea was that if the problem is low oxygen especially when just watered then there is good hope H2O2 will provide oxygen for a number of hours. I did note two reactions: Plants needing water one day earlier and much less springtails (and I think my Minicoco might have done well due to this but a bit early to tell)

Hope this helps someone. And that it helps myself.. :bummed:

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