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PalmTreeDude

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I found a tropical climate map for Florida, it seems to include more in the tropical area than most other maps do, does it look accurate? 

 

Tropicalclimateflorida.jpg

PalmTreeDude

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That seems approximately correct, but I'd put it slightly further north on the west coast up to Ft. Myers. 

Westchase | 9b 10a  ◆  Nokomis | 10a  ◆  St. Petersburg | 10a 10b 

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22 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

That seems approximately correct, but I'd put it slightly further north on the west coast up to Ft. Myers. 

 

10 hours ago, bubba said:

Koeppen = 64.8 F. coldest month is Tropical. Would believe Ft.Myers qualifies.

 

6 hours ago, Palmaceae said:

Yes Ft Myers/Cape Coral should be covered.

Ah! So it actually should be going a little higher! 

PalmTreeDude

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1 hour ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

So that definition means that bownsville, tx/ south texas coast would be classified as tropical as well?

It's the median temp for the coldest month, and the median for Brownsville in January is 61.1˚, so it's subtropical. 

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Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

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On September 16, 2016 at 10:18:39 PM, PalmTreeDude said:

I found a tropical climate map for Florida, it seems to include more in the tropical area than most other maps do, does it look accurate? 

 

Tropicalclimateflorida.jpg

I don't think it's very informative. I'd map the distribution of coconuts in gardens and wild gumbo limbo and mangroves for a more useful map. If you have 2/3 of those, you've got a mild climate for sure.

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If you define tropical by the truly tropical plants that are growing there, then I would move the coastal parts of the blue zone up to St. Petersburg Beach on the Gulf Coast and to Merritt Island on the Atlantic Coast.  Also, I would move the central part of the blue to the whole south side of Lake Okeechobee.  I think this map is way too restrictive for the current climate in Florida.  Maybe it was an appropriate map for the 1980's, but not now.  Granted, there have been some cold winters in Florida over the last 15 years, but the general trend has been warmer winters and an increase in tropical plants growing further north than they used to.

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6 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

If you define tropical by the truly tropical plants that are growing there, then I would move the coastal parts of the blue zone up to St. Petersburg Beach on the Gulf Coast and to Merritt Island on the Atlantic Coast.  Also, I would move the central part of the blue to the whole south side of Lake Okeechobee.  I think this map is way too restrictive for the current climate in Florida.  Maybe it was an appropriate map for the 1980's, but not now.  Granted, there have been some cold winters in Florida over the last 15 years, but the general trend has been warmer winters and an increase in tropical plants growing further north than they used to.

The map is based on the Köppen definition of tropical, which is a mean of at least 18 °C for all months of the year. Locations further north than Ft. Myers and Palm beach don't quite meet this requirement for January, despite the abundance of tropical vegetation close to the coast. 

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Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

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The map seems very generous with the tropical classification along the spine of the state.  It seems to extend all the way to Alligator Alley.

Tampa, Interbay Peninsula, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10A

Bokeelia, Pine Island, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10B

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15 hours ago, Zeeth said:

The map is based on the Köppen definition of tropical, which is a mean of at least 18 °C for all months of the year. Locations further north than Ft. Myers and Palm beach don't quite meet this requirement for January, despite the abundance of tropical vegetation close to the coast. 

Okay, Keith, I was just basing what I said on where truly tropical plants can thrive about 90% of the time, which for horticultural purposes should be sufficient to be considered a "tropical" climate.  And by truly tropical plants, I mean plants like coconut palms, many types of ficus, royal poincianas, crotons, etc.

Edited by Mr. Coconut Palm
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On 9/19/2016, 6:54:52, Zeeth said:

The map is based on the Köppen definition of tropical, which is a mean of at least 18 °C for all months of the year. Locations further north than Ft. Myers and Palm beach don't quite meet this requirement for January, despite the abundance of tropical vegetation close to the coast. 

My understanding is that the Köppen classification system is of little use to gardeners; it's too broad to be informative with regard to what can grow, though it roughly predicts where vegetation zones are likely to occur. (In this case, a majority of FL tropicals was confined to the Köppen tropical zone in the wild.)

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  • 3 weeks later...

Florida does not have any areas that are truly tropical. The area that you highlighted on your map is subtropical. Interestly the Keys is not tropical either. Florida is the only state in the lower 48 that has a region that is truely subtropical. 

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23 minutes ago, DavidLee said:

Florida does not have any areas that are truly tropical. The area that you highlighted on your map is subtropical. Interestly the Keys is not tropical either. Florida is the only state in the lower 48 that has a region that is truely subtropical. 

What's your basis for saying Florida doesn't have any tropical areas? It is simply factual that some of Florida is tropical based on the Köppen definition. 

Westchase | 9b 10a  ◆  Nokomis | 10a  ◆  St. Petersburg | 10a 10b 

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8 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

What's your basis for saying Florida doesn't have any tropical areas? It is simply factual that some of Florida is tropical based on the Köppen definition. 

I think the reasoning here is true tropical areas are south of the tropic of cancer and north of the tropic of capricorn. But I also see the point concerning the Köppen definition, so this also has been a topic of conversation. Not sure what the true answer is, that is if there really is a true answer.

I am just happy I can grow tropical plants!  ;)

Lived in Cape Coral, Miami, Orlando and St. Petersburg Florida.

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Sorry Florida does not have any tropical regions. Just because Coconuts grow here does not mean the climate is tropical. Brazil's amazon area is tropical, wet and dry season is the only seasons they have. No Spring, No Summer, No Fall, No Winter.

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3 minutes ago, DavidLee said:

Sorry Florida does not have any tropical regions. Just because Coconuts grow here does not mean the climate is tropical. Brazil's amazon area is tropical, wet and dry season is the only seasons they have. No Spring, No Summer, No Fall, No Winter.

Most people are probably thankful we get a 3 month respite from the heat. If that mean's it isn't tropical, I'll take it. ;) 

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Westchase | 9b 10a  ◆  Nokomis | 10a  ◆  St. Petersburg | 10a 10b 

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I am not a climatologist. I think the topic is opinionated. Florida's South East Coast is pretty close to being tropical in my opinion maybe up to Fort  Myers on the west coast. Someone reason Florida's Florida East Coast moderates faster than the west coast.  In the winter a lot of times you see a 70 degree low in West Palm Beach and 55 degree low in Fort Myers on the same night.  The extremes for both locations are nearly the same.

I also remember going to Puerto Rico's rainforest, El Yunque National Forest. The National Forest Service had a pamphlet that mentioned the rainforest was subtropical. It looked tropical to me. I was trying figure out what disqualifies the rainforest from being tropical.

Edited by DavidLee
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28 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Most people are probably thankful we get a 3 month respite from the heat. If that mean's it isn't tropical, I'll take it. ;) 

As for me I am really looking forward to the respite!

Lived in Cape Coral, Miami, Orlando and St. Petersburg Florida.

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 The problem here is that we are discussing three different things. First, there is the fact that the true tropics are wholly confined to that part of the earth between the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn. As I'm sure most of you know, it is only between those two points that the sun is directly overhead for at least one day out of the year. It is a fact, though not a defining fact, that many beautiful plants generally can only be found between the Tropic of Cancer and Capricorn.  So, when we discuss "tropical plants," what we are discussing are those plans which tend to be found in the true tropics. Of course, boundaries are never quite as sharp as one would like them to be, and there are some areas just outside of the true tropics in which many plans, which we consider to be tropical plants because they are otherwise confined to the tropics, do indeed grow. No part of Florida is within the two tropics; the line passes between the Keys and Cuba. However, if we define tropical zones as those parts of the earth in which plants which are otherwise confined to the tropics can also grow outside said tropics, then we have two different ways of including Florida into the tropical zone: first, we can invoke the Köppen classification system; Second, we can go by areas in which tropical plants are seen to grow (which would include points as far north as Merritt Island in Florida). So we are left with three definitions of tropical climate: climates which just so happen to be located between the Tropic of Capricorn and Tropic of Cancer;  climates which fit within the Köppen tropical zone; and climates which can support well-known tropical plants, such as coconuts. Of those three options, the Köppen one is by far the least useful. It is not based on geography, and, in general, it fails to actually cover zones which otherwise share the same flora.

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I think South Florida does have some tropical parts in it, especially if you put temperature AND vegetation in the reasons. Now does South Florida come in between the  Tropic of Capricorn and Tropic of Cancer? No. So if we are talking geographically, then, no. But then think of it like how I said. And think, Bermuda is basically tropical, it is on the Gulf Stream and has all kinds of tropical vegetation and good temperature. It is kind of an interesting topic. And then there is the three month "break" from the very hot heat, but it generally stays warm, from what I have seen so far. :wacko:

Edited by PalmTreeDude

PalmTreeDude

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2 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

 The problem here is that we are discussing three different things. First, there is the fact that the true tropics are wholly confined to that part of the earth between the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn. As I'm sure most of you know, it is only between those two points that the sun is directly overhead for at least one day out of the year. It is a fact, though not a defining fact, that many beautiful plants generally can only be found between the Tropic of Cancer and Capricorn.  So, when we discuss "tropical plants," what we are discussing are those plans which tend to be found in the true tropics. Of course, boundaries are never quite as sharp as one would like them to be, and there are some areas just outside of the true tropics in which many plans, which we consider to be tropical plants because they are otherwise confined to the tropics, do indeed grow. No part of Florida is within the two tropics; the line passes between the Keys and Cuba. However, if we define tropical zones as those parts of the earth in which plants which are otherwise confined to the tropics can also grow outside said tropics, then we have two different ways of including Florida into the tropical zone: first, we can invoke the Köppen classification system; Second, we can go by areas in which tropical plants are seen to grow (which would include points as far north as Merritt Island in Florida). So we are left with three definitions of tropical climate: climates which just so happen to be located between the Tropic of Capricorn and Tropic of Cancer;  climates which fit within the Köppen tropical zone; and climates which can support well-known tropical plants, such as coconuts. Of those three options, the Köppen one is by far the least useful. It is not based on geography, and, in general, it fails to actually cover zones which otherwise share the same flora.

You make some very good points. One difference I've noticed between the Koppen tropical areas and parts of Florida like Merrit Island with tropical plants is that the Koppen areas have tropical plants naturally.

To better illustrate my point, take Anna Maria Island and Egmont Key. AMI has coconuts, royal poinciana, you name it that've probably got it since it is 10b. Egmont Key is full of Sabal palmettos since nobody has touched it. They both basically have the same climate which supports tropical foliage per what can be observed on AMI, but naturally there isn't any per Egmont Key. This area is well north of the Koppen tropical area and being that there are no real tropical plants naturally I'd think it is fair to say it isn't tropical. 

On the other hand, areas within the Koppen definition typically do have tropical plants naturally. I recall going to Flamingo, FL (totally undeveloped) a long time ago and it looks far more tropical than temperate. This is the difference I think and why I tend to agree with Koppen.

Edited by RedRabbit

Westchase | 9b 10a  ◆  Nokomis | 10a  ◆  St. Petersburg | 10a 10b 

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Just thought I'd mention that on the flip side, there are plenty of places within the tropic boundaries that do not have a tropical climate (on the koppen system). Not just higher-altitude places, but some on the coast as well (Hong Kong comes to mind).  Because of all the quirks and nuances of geography, currents and such, the "tropical climate line" is a curvy one, especially in the Northern hemisphere. Hong Kong is on a negative dip in the curve, coastal South Florida on a positive.  Miami's average January high temp is 11 degrees F warmer than Hong Kong's.  Miami's average January temp is something like 5 degrees warmer.  So if you're saying South Florida doesn't have any areas with a tropical climate because it's on the wrong side of the line, I'd say that's not a very good argument.  If you're not saying that, are you saying it's still not warm enough? How warm is warm enough? Not rhetorical, I really want to know anyone's opinion.

Edited by pin38
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Mike in zone 6 Missouruh

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10 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

You make some very good points. One difference I've noticed between the Koppen tropical areas and parts of Florida like Merrit Island with tropical plants is that the Koppen areas have tropical plants naturally.

To better illustrate my point, take Anna Maria Island and Egmont Key. AMI has coconuts, royal poinciana, you name it that've probably got it since it is 10b. Egmont Key is full of Sabal palmettos since nobody has touched it. They both basically have the same climate which supports tropical foliage per what can be observed on AMI, but naturally there isn't any per Egmont Key. This area is well north of the Koppen tropical area and being that there are no real tropical plants naturally I'd think it is fair to say it isn't tropical. 

On the other hand, areas within the Koppen definition typically do have tropical plants naturally. I recall going to Flamingo, FL (totally undeveloped) a long time ago and it looks far more tropical than temperate. This is the difference I think and why I tend to agree with Koppen.

Actually, Brevard County barrier islands host native tropical forest, which include woodlands with gumbo-limbo, strangler fig, and giant blue land crabs and NO pines (e.g. the preserve off A1A between Indialantic and Sebastian Inlet). Also, Brevard hosts substantial mangrove forests. So, by your own definition, the Köppen system doesn't capture the distribution of native tropical plant zones. But, yeah, there are more tropical species each mile you head south ( toward the true tropics).

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9 hours ago, pin38 said:

Just thought I'd mention that on the flip side, there are plenty of places within the tropic boundaries that do not have a tropical climate (on the koppen system). Not just higher-altitude places, but some on the coast as well (Hong Kong comes to mind).  Because of all the quirks and nuances of geography, currents and such, the "tropical climate line" is a curvy one, especially in the Northern hemisphere. Hong Kong is on a negative dip in the curve, coastal South Florida on a positive.  Miami's average January high temp is 11 degrees F warmer than Hong Kong's.  Miami's average January temp is something like 5 degrees warmer.  So if you're saying South Florida doesn't have any areas with a tropical climate because it's on the wrong side of the line, I'd say that's not a very good argument.  If you're not saying that, are you saying it's still not warm enough? How warm is warm enough? Not rhetorical, I really want to know anyone's opinion.

Again, the problem is with the Köppen climate scale's use of "tropical" to describe climate independent of geography. No one is arguing that Florida cannot support plants from the tropics; rather, we are just clarifying that no part of Florida is within the tropics. (The same problem would hold with the term "arctic": one might find an arctic-like climate atop Mount Everest, but that location would still be outside of the arctic.)

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6 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Actually, Brevard County barrier islands host native tropical forest, which include woodlands with gumbo-limbo, strangler fig, and giant blue land crabs and NO pines (e.g. the preserve off A1A between Indialantic and Sebastian Inlet). Also, Brevard hosts substantial mangrove forests. So, by your own definition, the Köppen system doesn't capture the distribution of native tropical plant zones. But, yeah, there are more tropical species each mile you head south ( toward the true tropics).

Yep, gumbo limbo was an exception I was considering in the Tampa Bay Area too. I didn't realize strangler fig grew that far north. :greenthumb:

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Westchase | 9b 10a  ◆  Nokomis | 10a  ◆  St. Petersburg | 10a 10b 

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1 hour ago, RedRabbit said:

Yep, gumbo limbo was an exception I was considering in the Tampa Bay Area too. I didn't realize strangler fig grew that far north. :greenthumb:

Here are some pix from about 15 miles south of my house (for comparison between my hand and the gumbo-limbo trunk, I'm 6'4")

IMG_0127.JPG

IMG_0131.JPG

IMG_0160.JPG

IMG_0162.JPG

IMG_0166.JPG

IMG_0177.JPG

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Parts of southern China as far north as 25-28 degrees (IIRC) are tropical despite being well above the Tropic of Cancer.  While this is likely due to mountain ranges shielding them from cold air masses, I would imagine that, from time to time, relatively cool air does descend upon these areas.  However, southern Florida historically has been subjected to freezing temperatures somewhat regularly.  I was surprised once to read that the record low temp for Homestead was in the low 20s.  I would think that the unavoidable frosts this region experiences might exclude it from most definitions of "tropical."  This discussion does make me think, however, that the definition is fluid.

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Interestingly, I have read more than once that Hawaii's climate is subtropical.  Although lowland temperature ranges fall within the Koeppen thresholds for a tropical climate, we do experience winter low temps below 60 degrees sometimes even at sea level here on the Big Island.  And frost is a regular visitor at higher elevations where even our native Koa and Ohia trees can be damaged when they are young.  Maybe it is the absence of really torpid conditions (thank you, tradewinds) that leads to the perception of subtropical.

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3 hours ago, CLINODAVE said:

Interestingly, I have read more than once that Hawaii's climate is subtropical.  Although lowland temperature ranges fall within the Koeppen thresholds for a tropical climate, we do experience winter low temps below 60 degrees sometimes even at sea level here on the Big Island.  And frost is a regular visitor at higher elevations where even our native Koa and Ohia trees can be damaged when they are young.  Maybe it is the absence of really torpid conditions (thank you, tradewinds) that leads to the perception of subtropical.

Again, all of Hawai'i is in the tropics, and every square inch of the state is therefore tropical (including snow-frequented mountain tops). If, however, we employ the Köppen system, the term "tropical" refers to a very specific climate that happens to be most frequently found in the tropics; Köppen tropical climate is therefore found both within and without the tropics, and is also absent from parts of the tropics and non-tropics.

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23 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Again, all of Hawai'i is in the tropics, and every square inch of the state is therefore tropical (including snow-frequented mountain tops). If, however, we employ the Köppen system, the term "tropical" refers to a very specific climate that happens to be most frequently found in the tropics; Köppen tropical climate is therefore found both within and without the tropics, and is also absent from parts of the tropics and non-tropics.

Oh yeah, there is no way Hawaii is not tropical! But the snow capped areas of the mountains? Like the very tips?

Edited by PalmTreeDude

PalmTreeDude

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A 90 degree sun angle isn't discernible from an 87/88/89 degree sun angle. The climate is tropical, which is what matters most as it dictates what can and cannot grow.

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On 10/12/2016, 9:51:03, Yunder Wækraus said:

Here are some pix from about 15 miles south of my house (for comparison between my hand and the gumbo-limbo trunk, I'm 6'4")

IMG_0127.JPG

IMG_0131.JPG

IMG_0160.JPG

IMG_0162.JPG

IMG_0166.JPG

IMG_0177.JPG

Thanks for sharing! I wish those two grew over my way. :(

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Westchase | 9b 10a  ◆  Nokomis | 10a  ◆  St. Petersburg | 10a 10b 

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There are gumbo limbo and native ficus on some of the barrier islands in cockroach bay area. South of South Shore area.

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Tampa, Florida

Zone - 10a

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  • 6 years later...

I was looking at Sarasota’s Wikipedia the other day and they classify it as tropical… Supposedly the January average temperature is 64.2f so it’s close, but I’m wondering if that’s actually accurate? My understanding was Cape Coral or Gasparilla Island were the most northern points that were tropical. Venice and St. Pete are 62.0f by comparison so I’m not sure how Sarasota is 2f warmer.

This is trivial,  but it was interesting to see somewhere further north being classified as tropical and the data on Wikipedia (sort of) backs it up.

Edited by RedRabbit
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Westchase | 9b 10a  ◆  Nokomis | 10a  ◆  St. Petersburg | 10a 10b 

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On 9/19/2016 at 6:54 AM, Zeeth said:

The map is based on the Köppen definition of tropical, which is a mean of at least 18 °C for all months of the year. Locations further north than Ft. Myers and Palm beach don't quite meet this requirement for January, despite the abundance of tropical vegetation close to the coast. 

OK. So 66°F average even in the coldest month. If temps in the tropics dropped to 10°C, people there would freeze to death. So 18°C with a standard deviation of 3C° makes sense. I don't think any place outside the Keys would qualify.

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4 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I was looking at Sarasota’s Wikipedia the other day and they classify it as tropical… Supposedly the January average temperature is 64.2f so it’s close, but I’m wondering if that’s actually accurate? My understanding was Cape Coral or Gasparilla Island were the most northern points that were tropical. Venice and St. Pete are 62.0f by comparison so I’m not sure how Sarasota is 2f warmer.

This is trivial,  but it was interesting to see somewhere further north being classified as tropical and the data on Wikipedia (sort of) backs it up.

These classifications are invented by people who never lived in the tropics at low altitude.

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4 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I was looking at Sarasota’s Wikipedia the other day and they classify it as tropical… Supposedly the January average temperature is 64.2f so it’s close, but I’m wondering if that’s actually accurate? My understanding was Cape Coral or Gasparilla Island were the most northern points that were tropical. Venice and St. Pete are 62.0f by comparison so I’m not sure how Sarasota is 2f warmer.

This is trivial,  but it was interesting to see somewhere further north being classified as tropical and the data on Wikipedia (sort of) backs it up.

@PortCharlotteCocos advised me that the averages from Lakeland Linder (KLAL) are just a smidge short of the temperature threshold for tropical (January Daily Mean = 62.2 vs. 64.4).  With the UHI effect, it is possible that the Koppen threshold for temperature could be met in the City Hall/Hollis Gardens area.  Doesn't mean a whole lot because of the record and/or average lows, but kind of interesting none the less.  Winter Haven is pretty close as well.

202304112100_Lakeland_Wikipedia.jpg.a1aa73b4d3e6132a9b0edb160b391c0e.jpg

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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